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Genshin Impact developer to pay $20M fine to US's FTC over loot box violations

Astray

Member
$20m fine + banned from selling Lootboxes to minors. Still awaiting Judge's approval tho.

People might get refunds too from what I'm seeing.


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Genshin Impact developer to pay $20M fine to US Federal Trade Commission over loot box violations​

The company will pay, and make changes to its disclosures
by Nicole Carpenter

Genshin Impact publisher Cognosphere (which is also called Hoyoverse) is settling a United States Federal Trade Commission lawsuit over selling loot boxes to players under the age of 16. It’ll pay a $20 million fine for allegedly violating U.S. children’s privacy laws and “deciev[ing] children and other users about the real costs of in-game translations and odds of obtaining rare prizes.” The company will also stop selling loot boxes to people under the age of 16 without parental consent. The complaint covers not only the act of selling loot boxes to people under the age of 16, but also alleges that Hoyoverse has mishandled children’s data and personal information.

Genshin Impact deceived children, teens, and other players into spending hundreds of dollars on prizes they stood little chance of winning,” FTC consumer protection director Samuel Levine said in a news release. “Companies that deploy these dark-pattern tactics will be held accountable if they deceive players, particularly kids and teens, about the true costs of in-game transactions.”

The settlement is awaiting approval from a judge before it goes into effect. Beyond the $20 million fine, here’s what’s changing for the company, per the FTC news release:
  • Prohibited from allowing children under 16 to purchase loot boxes in their video games without a parent’s affirmative express consent;
  • Prohibited from selling loot boxes using virtual currency without providing an option for consumers to purchase them directly with real money;
  • Prohibited from misrepresenting loot box odds, prices and features;
  • Required to disclose loot box odds and exchange rates for multi-tiered virtual currency;
  • Required to delete any personal information previously collected from children under 13 unless they obtain parental consent to retain such data; and
  • Required to comply with COPPA including its notice and consent requirements.
“Animation-style games and shows are well-received by global audiences and players across various ages,” a Genshin Impact spokesperson said in a statement to Polygon. “Genshin Impact is a popular free-to-play, anime-style game designed for older teens and adults. While we believe many of the FTC’s allegations are inaccurate, we agreed to this settlement because we value the trust of our community and share a commitment to transparency for our players. Under the agreement, we will introduce new age-gate and parental consent protections for children and young teens and increase our in-game disclosures around virtual currency and rewards for players in the U.S. in the coming months.“
A Bloomberg report ahead of the released findings suggested players who paid for loot boxes may be reimbursed as part of the settlement, but an FTC representative clarified to Polygon that the $20 million civil penalty will go to the U.S. Treasury, as is law.
Genshin Impact is a free-to-play video game that uses a gacha monetization system that encourages players to convert real-life currency into in-game currency that’s used to buy “wishes” to randomly unlock characters and weapons. The system means that people can end up spending a lot of money to pull rare characters or items — something akin to gambling. The system, the FTC said, includes multiple in-game currencies that obscure the amount of money spent to open its loot boxes.

The FTC alleged that Hoyoverse spends “millions of dollars” to promote its gacha system to its players, many of which are children. It brought up an instance in 2021 when Hoyoverse paid Alia Shelesh, better known online as SSSniperWolf, more than $100,000 to make two videos about Genshin Impact, and directed her to open loot boxes via the Event Banner for a character called Zhongli.

“In May 2021, the SSSniperwolf promotional video was released,” the FTC wrote in the complaint. “It featured a segment in which the influencer opened twelve loot boxes in a row, conveying enthusiasm and excitement as she had been instructed, and won the featured 5-star hero. She remarked, ‘We are getting way too lucky tonight. I thought we were going to be here all night, but the RNG [random number generator] “bussin”,’ indicating her unexpected luck that Genshin Impact had purportedly dispensed the rare prize to her by random chance.”

The FTC alleged the video was edited “to depict a fake loot box prize win, in a way that would have been impossible in the Genshin Impact game.” (The proof provided by the FTC is that Genshin Impact only allows players to open 10 loot boxes in a row, but SSSniperwolf opened 12 uninterrupted. The video also used the wrong animation when opening 5-star prizes, according to the FTC.)

Update: This story has been updated to include a statement from Hoyoverse and clarify details about the settlement fine.
 
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Dacvak

No one shall be brought before our LORD David Bowie without the true and secret knowledge of the Photoshop. For in that time, so shall He appear.
face crying GIF
 

Doom85

Member
Season 6 What GIF by The Office


So I dropped Genshin Impact after a few months, but still play Honkai Star Rail and Zenless Zone Zero.

Since when are loot boxes a part of gacha games? Is this just their way of saying gacha pulls?

A few of the rules seem odd to bring up, if it’s like Star Rail and Zenless, then Genshin has said what the probability of pulling is, and how much in-game currency and such costs.

You have to love this is partially because SniperWolf is a dumbass who didn’t think anyone would notice she opened 12 boxes at once when most gacha games, including Genshin, do it by 10’s. I don’t know much about her, but everyone who seems to be aware of her say she’s quite unlikable and obnoxious.
 
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That's strange, genshin doesn't really have "loot boxes", but pulls with a chance of obtaining something, and I also don't understand the deceptive practices bit, all of the odds are clearly explained on all banners; furthermore they state that people were spending money with little chance of getting an item....yeah that's how gacha works and again the odds are right there, and because every pull has the same chances, you aren't excluded from any banner item with any pull, and on top of that there's a guarantee which makes you win the banner item after a set number of pulls. 🤔
 

lh032

I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
i always hope government will bad all these lootbox gambling crap and see these studios fall, but thats not gonna happen, the gambling industry is too big now
 
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T4keD0wN

Member
Mihoyo is is the Gamefreak of mobile games. Make tons of money but every character stands still or uses the same animation over and over again in every interaction in Star Rail.
Its crazy, it was the 12th highest grossing game last year on mobile and theyve only gotten lazier with HSR 3.0 update this week in that aspect, not only is half of the main crew still unvoiced in english, now theres even less animations and more fade to black screens and CG pictures for dialogue similar to visual novels, theyre like the polar opposite to Kuro Games who have stepped it up big time this year.
 

Sakura

Member
I'm not sure I understand everything there. I get the thing about using virtual currency over real money, but I'm not sure how people are deceived. Every banner lists the odds of what you can get.
 
The rates are public so there's no deception whatsoever.

Someone is extremely butthurt about China not selling off TikTok to daddy Elon. Will they do the same to EA, Blizzard and everyone else?
 

Doom85

Member
Its crazy, it was the 12th highest grossing game last year on mobile and theyve only gotten lazier with HSR 3.0 update this week in that aspect, not only is half of the main crew still unvoiced in english, now theres even less animations and more fade to black screens and CG pictures for dialogue similar to visual novels, theyre like the polar opposite to Kuro Games who have stepped it up big time this year.

Pretty sure the English dub issue is due to the VA strikes, they’ve already had to flat out replace some of the smaller roles such as Argenti and HuoHuo.

I care more about the quality of the story and characters than minor details like character animation. Honestly, I’m enjoying Wuthering Waves fine now that’s it is on PS5, but by god are the characters pretty meh generally. Doesn’t help I found out they removed the original version of the story’s first arc, apparently some Chinese players complained that some of the characters don’t immediately trust or like the MC (heaven forbid, we’re only some total stranger who wandered into their lives!), so they altered it and now all the heroes and villains act like the MC is God’s gift to humanity, it’s kind of cringe honestly.

In Honkai Star Rail, Herta would mock you constantly, plenty of major characters in Belebog didn’t trust you, Sparkle trolled the shit out of you plenty, etc. They actually feel like people who act in diverse ways regardless of your special status, whereas WuWa makes everyone your cheerleader. I have heard things get better supposedly after a long while, but damn was this a rough start, the gameplay is carrying this game hard so far.
 

Mayar

Member
Сouldn't they come up with an even more "ridiculous" fine for a company with a billion-dollar turnover? They'll recoup that money with one banner, and not the most successful one at that... I'm just interested in talking to the people who assign fines, to understand their logic.
 
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Saber

Member
Nah, FTC document is a joke and describes more FIFA lootboxes than Gacha one. This is simply another US vs China.

I completelly agree, not in defense of Genshin. But to sue them while scum like EA get free pass is absolutelly ridiculous. Or you are against loot boxes as a whole or stop pretending to have country bias.
 
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Pejo

Gold Member
Not that I stand up for gacha as a monetization system, but this is either terrible wording or understanding of the product. That Genshin is the only game that got mentioned in a sea of games that do this, and no mention of any number of games that actually have loot boxes, feels like somebody had an agenda.

I remember they tried legislating this same thing in China and it tanked the stock market. They completely reversed the decision and I think closed the department that suggested it in the first place. Obviously this won't happen in the US, but it's still just as stupid.

That said, if a game has gambling mechanics, I'm all for making it 18+. Kids shouldn't be groomed into gambling.
 

Doom85

Member
Lootboxes suck and should all be replaced with direct purchases.

Not Gonna Happen No Way GIF by FaZe Clan



How many times do we have to learn this lesson? Loot boxes usually can be earned by playing the game a lot. So focus on the characters/skins/etc. you want, and you’ll only pay a little if anything at all.

Remove the loot box system? Good job, you’ve moved from Overwatch 1 to Overwatch 2. Now you want a cosmetic? Better be prepared to fork over some cash, and now playing the game a lot will award you jack and shit.

I was able to get most cosmetics I wanted in Overwatch 1 because I played the game a lot which meant I was rolling in enough earned game currency to get enough loot boxes to get cosmetics I really wanted (as playing a ton gives you loot boxes and duplicates always give you game currency). Now it’s $20-50 for a costume or costume set if I want it because they took loot boxes away. And me playing the game a lot means jack and shit, I have to pay as much as any casual player would to get a cosmetic.

So basically, the hardcore players got punished while the casuals who only touch the game occasionally got “rewarded” but not really as they’re still having to pay anyway if they want a cosmetic. So no one won, and some players got especially screwed over.

Gacha games are the same way. Play it a lot, and you can earn enough to get a decent amount of pulls and focus on the characters you really want and you can get them due to the pity system. Take that away? Great, now if you want a new character that was just added to the game, you have to pay and you have no option around that.

The Office Sarcasm GIF
 
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Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Loot boxes? What the fuck are they talking about?
That's strange, genshin doesn't really have "loot boxes", but pulls with a chance of obtaining something, and I also don't understand the deceptive practices bit, all of the odds are clearly explained on all banners; furthermore they state that people were spending money with little chance of getting an item....yeah that's how gacha works and again the odds are right there, and because every pull has the same chances, you aren't excluded from any banner item with any pull, and on top of that there's a guarantee which makes you win the banner item after a set number of pulls. 🤔
Season 6 What GIF by The Office


So I dropped Genshin Impact after a few months, but still play Honkai Star Rail and Zenless Zone Zero.

Since when are loot boxes a part of gacha games? Is this just their way of saying gacha pulls?

A few of the rules seem odd to bring up, if it’s like Star Rail and Zenless, then Genshin has said what the probability of pulling is, and how much in-game currency and such costs.

You have to love this is partially because SniperWolf is a dumbass who didn’t think anyone would notice she opened 12 boxes at once when most gacha games, including Genshin, do it by 10’s. I don’t know much about her, but everyone who seems to be aware of her say she’s quite unlikable and obnoxious.




Every banner is a lootbox.





By definition and mechanics Gacha Banners and Lootboxes are the same thing.
Different games try naming their lootboxes different things to try hide the fact they are in fact just lootboxes.
 
By definition and mechanics Gacha Banners and Lootboxes are the same thing.
Not quite, gacha predates lootboxes and comes from physical machines with prizes, this is why gacha always had single pulls while lootboxes were literal boxes with random stuff in it; gacha also tends to pertain items that are directly related to gameplay, whereas lootboxes have all kinds of random shit in them that are purely cosmetic.
 

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Not quite, gacha predates lootboxes and comes from physical machines with prizes, this is why gacha always had single pulls while lootboxes were literal boxes with random stuff in it; gacha also tends to pertain items that are directly related to gameplay, whereas lootboxes have all kinds of random shit in them that are purely cosmetic.

FIFA/EAFC Loot boxes have literally players for ultimate team......spend enough and you are guaranteed to have a powerful team.
Battlefront 2 same thing.

Gacha and Lootbox are mechanically the same


Its the same solution just origination from different things.
Gacha as you said stems from the old machines.
Lootboxes stem from old RPGs where random loot would be dropped from enemies.

At the end of the day its a "box" you open that has random shit....depending on the game it could be purely cosmetic or could be gameplay related.
Whether its one item or multiple by definition what you are doing is exactly the same as such there is no distinction between the systems by law in the US and UK.
They are just blanket called Lootboxes because saying Gacha would confuse people where as Lootbox/Lootcrate is plain english.
 
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My mistake I must have misunderstood this part of your post:
Maybe you misread it as everything in it being cosmetic, that's not what it says, just that they are filled with cosmetics; gacha banners are only filled with things that you can use to improve your account/character/gear, there's no stickers, or voice lines or emotes or sprays or any of that useless trash.
 

Power Pro

Member
Wish we could ban loot boxes like this all together. Such a fucking trap for anyone who has bad gambling habits. The fact that these things aren't considered gambling is a fucking joke.
 

fersnake

Member
let see, you gave your children your tablet with your credit card info to play a celphone game with ingame purchases and yet the fault is the game company? lol
 

Felessan

Member
Wish we could ban loot boxes like this all together. Such a fucking trap for anyone who has bad gambling habits. The fact that these things aren't considered gambling is a fucking joke.
Ban Diablo too with it's random drop. And any other game that rely on random as a part of its gameplay.
And it's not a gambling by definition - it's require fixed number of rolls (boxes) to get anything and gambling require it to stay purely chance.
 
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Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Maybe you misread it as everything in it being cosmetic, that's not what it says, just that they are filled with cosmetics; gacha banners are only filled with things that you can use to improve your account/character/gear, there's no stickers, or voice lines or emotes or sprays or any of that useless trash.

So your distinction between a gacha banner and a lootbox is that a gacha banner always has "useful things" whereas a lootbox can have "useless" things?



is-that-your-final-answer-381x294-1.jpg





P.S Every Gacha is a lootbox but not every lootbox is gacha.
 

Felessan

Member
Lootboxes suck and should all be replaced with direct purchases.
It'll worsen conditions for players.
Basically chance with soft/hard cap will be replaced with fixed 120 rolls cost (some gacha like ToF do this already in addition to chance) but gacha also allow players to "get lucky" and get things earlier.
 

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
And it's not a gambling by definition - it's require fixed number of rolls (boxes) to get anything and gambling require it to stay purely chance.

Genshin banners(lootboxes) are purely based on chance, you get something every roll but not necessarily the thing you want.....so you are gambling on the chance of getting said thing.
Even at pity 90 rolls you are not guaranteed to get the banner character.
I unlocked a Mona on a Hu Tao banner..........I still dont have Hu Tao.
 

Felessan

Member
Genshin banners(lootboxes) are purely based on chance, you get something every roll but not necessarily the thing you want.....so you are gambling on the chance of getting said thing.
Even at pity 90 rolls you are not guaranteed to get the banner character.
I unlocked a Mona on a Hu Tao banner..........I still dont have Hu Tao.
It has a fixed guarantee.
It takes a fixed 90 rolls to get an SSR with 50/50 of it's being a banner (known as coin flip) and fixed 180 rolls to get a banner SSR. Its not even reset across banners.
Any strategic player knows that and use that in their char acquisition strategy.
 

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
It has a fixed guarantee.
It takes a fixed 90 rolls to get an SSR with 50/50 of it's being a banner (known as coin flip) and fixed 180 rolls to get a banner SSR. Its not even reset across banners.
Any strategic player knows that and use that in their char acquisition strategy.

The pity systems doesnt get rid of the fact you are gambling on pulls.
You have no guarantee of what you are gonna get at lets say pull number 30.


Being able to count cards in BlackJack doesnt mean BlackJack isnt a gambling game.
 

Felessan

Member
The pity systems doesnt get rid of the fact you are gambling on pulls.
You have no guarantee of what you are gonna get at lets say pull number 30.
You are mixing things.
You "gamble on pulls" aka rely on randomness in a lot of games, all loot games are rely on randomness
Gambling, by definition, is that your result to win depends purely on chance (and this chance can be against you as in roulette or in your favor as in blackjack with card counting). Modern gacha avoid that (partially in a push to differentiate themselves from gambling as scrutinity and regulation are strict, especially in Asia where gacha went a long road, partially because having no upper cap for getting a char is very frustrating for players) - they offer you an ability to win without relying on chance at all.

Being able to count cards in BlackJack doesnt mean BlackJack isnt a gambling game.
Counting cards in blackjack guarantees nothing. It does gives you statistical advantage, but your chance to win still remain purely chance (just this chance now work in your favor) - you need to rely on law of large numbers to get stable profit and even than you can be fucked up by randomness, like getting 30 tails in a row (chance is 1 in a billion but it still exist).
In Genshin you don't rely on statistics, you just save 180 rolls and you are good to go, nothing can screw you.
 

hinch7

Member
Surprised they aren't going after Valve as well. They made 1 billion off lootboxes in 2023, from CS alone.

Zero age verification checks for that lol.
 
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hinch7

Member
It's actually not about lootboxes, it's about false advertising of lootboxes.
Kinda shady from SSSniperWolf but thats pretty much expected. Hoyoverse are pretty scummy if they were; and knowingly taking payment from underage users, for what is essentially an online casino. But yeah not sure how that could be enforced anyways and it falls down to poor parenting more than anything. Its good that they show the odds of winning as these are massive traps and is gambling and should be treated as such.
 
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Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
You are mixing things.
You "gamble on pulls" aka rely on randomness in a lot of games, all loot games are rely on randomness
Gambling, by definition, is that your result to win depends purely on chance (and this chance can be against you as in roulette or in your favor as in blackjack with card counting). Modern gacha avoid that (partially in a push to differentiate themselves from gambling as scrutinity and regulation are strict, especially in Asia where gacha went a long road, partially because having no upper cap for getting a char is very frustrating for players) - they offer you an ability to win without relying on chance at all.

If you spend in game currency or real currency to play the RNG machine in a game then it is gambling, regardless of pity.
Simply having RNG loot drops from enemies is not the same thing.

Between 1 and whatever the pity setting is in a game, you are gambling if you are rolling using currency.
The reason games where a character drops loot isnt considered gambing is because you arent spending/rolling the RNG machine.......thats where the addiction/excitement comes.
The reason people get addicted to gambling and lootboxes by proxy is that excitement of NOT knowing, the feeling of danger the final reward being the dopamine dump when you do beat the odds.
 

Felessan

Member
If you spend in game currency or real currency to play the RNG machine in a game then it is gambling, regardless of pity.
No.
It's your perception, but its wrong (and per legal too)
Your frustration is making ANY random in result illegal and that silly. It's make the whole bond/stock market illegal and that's hilarious (given quantum uncertainty, stock market IS a random to some extent even if you have a perfect information).
There is a clear line in what's a gambling and what's a result with ~some~ luck involved.

The reason games where a character drops loot isnt considered gambing is because you arent spending/rolling the RNG machine.......thats where the addiction/excitement comes.
The reason people get addicted to gambling and lootboxes by proxy is that excitement of NOT knowing, the feeling of danger the final reward being the dopamine dump when you do beat the odds.
You really thinks that regulators are stupid in areas where gambling forbidden for all, not just minors?
You can't deny dopamine junkie (they are just as good in diablo as in any gacha game), but you can limit their obsession (and thus damage done) to a fixed predetermined level. That's what a gacha games do.
 
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