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[metalslimer]

Along with NASA Obama's continuation of Bush's horrible anti American policies like this are the biggest disappointments i have with him. No one can defend this. Go watch Taxi cab to the dark side and get back to me.

 

[YoungHav]

Along with NASA Obama's continuation of Bush's horrible anti American policies like this are the biggest disappointments i have with him. No one can defend this. Go watch Taxi cab to the dark side and get back to me.

I wiki'd and google to see what you were talking about, I'm now going to sleep pissed off.

 

[antonz]

Its the nature of the potential evils of government. Power is grabbed slowly over time and abuses become accepted by the population

When it comes to civil liberties and freedoms Obama is just continuing the power grab. Bush and Co set the groundwork and Obama expands and continues it and the President after him will do the same.
There is no greater abuse of power than stripping people of rights. Our country was founded to be a great beacon of rights and freedoms and its something people have always been proud of but this kind of stuff is disgusting and violates everything we are supposed to believe in.

 

[pigeon]

That falls under "could not fulfill".

His intentions of closure, if sincerely held, would also be at odds with current administration actions.

So you're saying he deliberately ran on a platform of closing Gitmo knowing beforehand that the Republican-controlled Congress would block him when he attempted to do so? I guess I would be pretty pissed at Obama too if I thought he was precognitive.

 

[FStop7]

What I think is more interesting is the fundamental policy shift that took place after Obama was elected.

Under Bush suspected terrorists were captured and brought to Guantanamo. They were also shipped off to secret prisons where they were tortured.

Obama promised to stop to aggressive interrogation (aka torture), stop extraordinary rendition, stop sending suspected terrorists to Gitmo.

So how did he decide to deal with them?

He decided to just kill them.

No need to worry about internment, interrogation, or tribunals for dead men.

 

[Rentahamster]

So you're saying he deliberately ran on a platform of closing Gitmo knowing beforehand that the Republican-controlled Congress would block him when he attempted to do so? I guess I would be pretty pissed at Obama too if I thought he was precognitive.

No, sheesh, quit trying to get all knee-jerky on me. (Republican-controlled congress, lol)

Based on what jchap said, Obama could have genuinely wanted the place shut down, but then saw some super duper secret intel that made him change his mind.

(this idea is roundly criticized by many posters in this thread)

or

Obama knew that he wouldn't do it but promised to do it anyway.

Obama knew that he couldn't do it (or that it would at least be pretty darn hard) due to many well known political and logistical reasons.



Despite your claims that that I conveniently forgot Obama's ballyhooed executive order, I did not forget.

I also did not forget that while he did face significant Republican opposition in his second term, he signed that executive order in his first term amid a Democratic majority in the House and a defacto supermajority (due to the independants caucusing with the Dems) in the Senate. And nothing significant happened.

I also did not forget the other executive order that he signed in 2011, that pretty much says he's cool with indefinite detention after all.

And now there's this, so if President Obama is really, truly, deeply sincere about closing Guantanamo, he's awfully good at not showing it.


Or you can just make another tidy strawman of what you think I'm trying to say.

 

[fabricated backlash]

These people have civil rights. What is Obama thinking?

Good one... civil rights.

 

[The Librarian]

I'm not going to defend Obama on this, but on the subject of Congressional majorities, and on why Obama has not lived up to the promises he made during the 2008 campaign.

I also did not forget that while he did face significant Republican opposition in his second term, he signed that executive order in his first term amid a Democratic majority in the House and a defacto supermajority (due to the independants caucusing with the Dems) in the Senate. And nothing significant happened.

The American legislature is not a parliamentary system.

 

[Rentahamster]

I'm not going to defend Obama on this, but on the subject of Congressional majorities, and on why Obama has not lived up to the promises he made during the 2008 campaign.

The American legislature is not a parliamentary system.

That only furthers my point.

 

[jaxword]

This is....not a good sign.

The fuck you doing, Obama?

Same thing as every other president ever.

 

[The Librarian]

That only furthers my point.

Not from the way your post reads. You seem to, in that post, imply that because of supermajorities, especially in the Senate, they should have been able to close Guantanamo purely based on the numbers they had in Congress. The truth is a lot more complicated than that.

 

[Rentahamster]

Not from the way your post reads. You seem to, in that post, imply that because of supermajorities, especially in the Senate, they should have been able to close Guantanamo purely based on the numbers they had in Congress. The truth is a lot more complicated than that.

My post takes issue primarily with the "it's all the Republicans' fault" defense.

After that, I broke down each possible option and judged their plausibilities.

I guess "(Republican-controlled Congress lol)" wasn't clear enough.

 

[jaxword]

If only these guys had guns they could protect themselves from the tyranny of the government.

Curiously, not a single notorious pro-gun right defender seems to be upholding this!

How strange.

 

[The Librarian]

My post takes issue primarily with the "it's all the Republicans' fault" defense.

After that, I broke down each possible option and judged their plausibilities.

I guess "(Republican-controlled Congress lol)" wasn't clear enough.

Firstly, on the subject of a Republican-controlled Congress, the Democrats only had a "supermajority" sixty votes in the Senate from July to August of 2009, and September 2009 to February of 2010. By all my reading, efforts to close the facility died out in June, but other efforts related to it continued halfway into his first term.

The whole "Obama promised even though he knew he couldn't" idea is pretty silly, along with any associated points. Despite all the lying to persuade and misleading that goes on in American politics, you can pretty much take what happens at face value. Presidential candidates largely try to carry out the promises they make on the campaign trail. He did try to close it; his administration tried. He would not have tried and wasted all that effort if he knew he couldn't.

 

[Wazzim]

Firstly, on the subject of a Republican-controlled Congress, the Democrats only had a "supermajority" sixty votes in the Senate from July to August of 2009, and September 2009 to February of 2010. By all my reading, efforts to close the facility died out in June, but other efforts related to it continued halfway into his first term.

The whole "Obama promised even though he knew he couldn't" idea is pretty silly, along with any associated points. Despite all the lying to persuade and misleading that goes on in American politics, you can pretty much take what happens at face value. Presidential candidates largely try to carry out the promises they make on the campaign trail. He did try to close it; his administration tried. He would not have tried and wasted all that effort if he knew he couldn't.

Total and utter bullshit.

That or he is unfit for politics because of his lack of vision and will to push for justice.

A real leader would keep hitting on the things he wants to see happen even if there is something as a minority in the congress.
He could have gone on national television to show what the last administration has done, he didn't. He could have done tons to change public opinion and strengthen his stance.

Fact is that Obama is a giant fraud.

 

[The Librarian]

Total and utter bullshit.

That or he is unfit for politics because of his lack of vision and will to push for justice.

A real leader would keep hitting on the things he wants to see happen even if there is something as a minority in the congress.
He could have gone on national television to show what the last administration has done, he didn't. He could have done tons to change public opinion and strengthen his stance.

Fact is that Obama is a giant fraud.

I think you're conflating prioritizing with Obama's sincerity to close the facility, and that's an entirely different discussion. The fact that he didn't make many speeches on the subject – he did, but not many – but putting aside the congressional effort he put into it, said that while it was a goal, it wasn't one of his top priorities. Which is sad.

 

[Gaborn]

Same thing as every other president ever.

Every other president tried to limit prisoners access to lawyers?

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

I’m amazed that anyone would even try to defend Obama’s actions here – it really shows just how greatly the two party scam has depraved the thinking processes of the general population. Party politics and patriotism are just as nefarious to populations as religious indoctrination – in fact there are many parallels. Bush screwed The People and slashed at their freedoms for eight years; while he does this the Democrats shout about Republican policy, and many on the right are even unable to see faults in many of his actions. Then Obama comes and screws The People and slashes at their freedoms for nearly four years, and Republicans get up in arms over liberal agenda, while many Democrats blindly follow their savior. If you step away from the party lines, what you see is that The People just got fucked for 12 years; that’s what really happened. You are born first and foremost as a member of the human species on planet Earth, not a god damn Democrat, not a god damn Republican, and not a god damn American.

As long as people still blindly follow the two party system, supporting ‘their candidate’ than I have no hope for the masses of this land. The POTUS is supposed to be a public servant. Congress, and the Senate are supposed to be public servants. Instead, what you have is an elite class who goes into office rich, and leaves even richer. Why should they care if their policies are to the detriment of the masses, or if you have to go through a full body cavity search to step aboard an airplane? The political elite are just fine either way; they are so clever that they even have people rallying for them. We are not much more than tax/debt slaves to the kings of nations engaging in their game of thrones. Kings and pawns really. How long until the pawns realize they can become whatever they want I wonder. One can’t march across the checkered ground alone.

Yeah, general apathy and ignorance frustrate me to no end.

I wiki'd and google to see what you were talking about, I'm now going to sleep pissed off.

There is a reason I posted a large picture of it on page one. If more Americans watched such a documentary instead of Reality TV the world would be the better for it.

 

[phosphor112]

Erm... this isn't new... is it?

 

[Castor Krieg]

These people have civil rights. What is Obama thinking?

"I need to win this election!"

 

[Ivan A Nguyen]

Anyone else feel like that prision is just one plumbing accident away from being secretly closed down?

I doubt it will come up in the election because the right wants it open in the same way that they passed laws for indeffinate detention for American citizens.

 

[Gaborn]

Erm... this isn't new... is it?

Yes, this is based on a new filing with the court.

 

[Rentahamster]

Firstly, on the subject of a Republican-controlled Congress, the Democrats only had a "supermajority" sixty votes in the Senate from July to August of 2009, and September 2009 to February of 2010. By all my reading, efforts to close the facility died out in June, but other efforts related to it continued halfway into his first term.

They had control of Congress and (relatively) nothing got done.

"by all your reading"? This didn't happen that long ago.

All those "efforts" to close Gitmo and those other "efforts" related to it don't mean anything when compared with the actual results. Democrats either then get strung along for the ride or face the notion that the Bush Cheney approach to defense might have been right. I find both prospects distasteful.

The whole "Obama promised even though he knew he couldn't" idea is pretty silly, along with any associated points. Despite all the lying to persuade and misleading that goes on in American politics, you can pretty much take what happens at face value. Presidential candidates largely try to carry out the promises they make on the campaign trail. He did try to close it; his administration tried. He would not have tried and wasted all that effort if he knew he couldn't.

You give Bush and Romney the same benefit of the doubt?

I'm still open to the possibility that he genuinely tried, but as time goes on I feel less and less inclined to do so.

From your linked article:

“Vulnerable senators weren’t going out on a limb and risk being Willie Hortonized on Gitmo when the White House, with the most to lose, wasn’t even twisting arms,” said a senior Democratic aide whose boss was one of 50 Democrats to vote in 2009 against funding to close Guantanamo. “They weren’t breathing down our necks pushing the vote or demanding unified action.”

“The one thing we could never figure out is who was in charge of it,” said a senior Republican staffer on Capitol Hill, whose boss, a senator, was initially supportive of the goal of closing Guantanamo. “Everybody seemed to have a piece of it, but nobody was in charge of it.”

That's a lousy way to advance the agenda, amidst President Obama's campaign trail claims of its GREAT MORAL URGENCY.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

 

[Mudkips]

Curiously, not a single notorious pro-gun right defender seems to be upholding this!

How strange.

Upholding what, exactly? The claim that their having (or using) guns would have saved them? It certainly could have.

Guantanamo Bay is an absolutely vile injustice. Either charge them with a crime and promptly try them, or let them go. If no other nation will take them, then give them American citizenship because Guantanamo Bay is America's fucking fault. If you believe these people are still dangerous then surveil them. There is no excuse for this bullshit, just as there was no excuse for the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII.

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Presidential candidates largely try to carry out the promises they make on the campaign trail. He did try to close it; his administration tried. He would not have tried and wasted all that effort if he knew he couldn't.

No, the Obama administration was going to move Gitmo to Illinois. They were under the correct assumption that this would placate the Democratic base, an institution highly motivated by symbols that obscure and transmute reality. That the freakshow Republicans did their work for them (preserving indefinite detention), was a blessing for the administration, not a curse.

 

[Gaborn]

Upholding what, exactly? The claim that their having (or using) guns would have saved them? It certainly could have.

Guantanamo Bay is an absolutely vile injustice. Either charge them with a crime and promptly try them, or let them go. If no other nation will take them, then give them American citizenship because Guantanamo Bay is America's fucking fault. If you believe these people are still dangerous then surveil them. There is no excuse for this bullshit, just as there was no excuse for the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII.

Very well said. This is simply unacceptable and it needs to stop.

 

[GungHo]

Obama wanted to shut this place down. It was a huge campaign promise. The fact that even he can not rationalize that decision says something about the types of people who are being held there. Some of these people can not be released and should not be given complete access to civilian legal representation as harsh as that sounds.

Fuck that shit. I don't care if they blew up a childrens' hospital and we have it on tape. They deserve legal representation and they deserve due process. Terrorist concentration camps do nothing but undermine our humanity.

 

[Rentahamster]

Given GAF's propensity to argue this issue from the "left", here's some criticism from the "right" (kinda sorta). I doubt many would have seen it otherwise.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2...own-executive-order-on-gitmo-detainee-rights/

Because that was an obviously empty promise, Obama added another executive order two years later establishing periodic review for detainees at the prison. And then the wheels came off the Moral Authority Express. It turned out instead of bringing enemy combatants to Guantanamo, where detainees are well-fed and have access to attorneys, Obama has been sending them to a disease-ridden hell-on-earth in Somalia. And the Obama administration began urging the Supreme Court to ignore the detainees’ appeals. And now it seems those periodic review boards were–what would the president call them? Just words:

But doesn’t this seem to contradict the point of the administration’s periodic review executive order, which according to CNN has “not been fully implemented”? Indeed it does, and the Obama administration, having misplaced its Hope and its Change and its New Brand of Politics, has a priceless explanation for it: “As a general matter, executive orders are viewed as management tools for implementing the president’s policies, not as legally binding documents that may be enforced against the executive branch.”

This is one reason this administration loves governing by executive order: Not only do the people’s representatives not get a say in the matter, but congressional legislation has the pesky attribute of being legally binding. To the Obama administration, the rule of law is a nice bumper sticker slogan, but in practice it’s for suckers and Republicans. Don’t bother Obama with such trifles–he’s got oceans to lower.

This president does seem to like to use the executive power a lot to get his way, which isn't automatically a bad thing. It just seems at odds with his party's strong opposition when Bush wielded that same executive power.

 

[Rentahamster]

Guess no one cares much for this topic anymore? Obama '08 bemoans your lack of moral urgency, while the 2-headed Bush Cheney hydra cackles maniacally and throws another baby in the microwave.

In other news, Gitmo prisoners have taken a liking to the Fresh Prince of Bel Air, while Harry Potter drops in popularity.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/08/2940229_fresh-prince-replaces-harry-potter.html

“I just ordered all six seasons,” says librarian Milton, a Defense Department contractor who gives only his first name to visiting journalists.

 

[Kibbles]

At least they get fresh prince.

 

[jerry1594]

This is absolutely unacceptable. What can be done about it?

 

[Rentahamster]

This is absolutely unacceptable. What can be done about it?

Vote for someone who doesn't support these policies (if you are a single issue voter and this is your single issue)

Participate in opposition movements

Write to your congressmen

Do your best to keep the general public aware of the situation