Bitstream
Member
It's a glorified snapchat filter.
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Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen
- Thread starter ResetEraVetVIP
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Cumulus
Member
right, let`s pretend the other threads don`t exist. I´m not gonna go on a gif- collect-a-thon. click any of the multitude of YT vids that have already done that or simply scroll up for other examples....
nope. That´s just how it`s presented. Reversing the calculations that led to that to get an accurate position of the source is quite literally impossible. Best you get is a very broad assumption and the moment you have several lightsources in a picture that can all interact with the same pixels you `re down to blind guessing which is exactly what we`re seeing in the blown out example scenes....
you have no idea how basic lighting works...
Capcom did nothing of the sort. The DLSS5 version has nothing to do with the original model and if you like it better is completely irrelevant. Fact is the filter doesn`t enhance the scene it reimagines
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March Climber
Member
Just so that we're clear here, you're disregarding him and that specific video because he researched the information and, not only came to the same conclusion as Digital Foundry in their recent correction video, but also showed that exact same research that DF just did in their correction video (that they should have shown to begin with)?
Just wanted to make sure.
Critical Hit
Member
There is a great link there to the reddit post, everyone should check it out
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BlownUpRich
Member
There is some disingenuous marketing from Nvidia around what DLSS 5 does to graphics, first it was only lighting, now it's more things than that, there are some things that Nvidia MUST IMMEDIATELY address, I knew that Neural Faces would be extremely controversial & problematic the day they revealed & showed it in that Zorah tech demo at CES 2025 with the RTX 50-series reveal.
Since that day I wished Nvidia would just ditch or re-do the faces thing, Grace's and others' faces look better than that demo but they are still far away from looking the same, they look over-contrasted, faulty & honestly very problematic from an ethical standpoint.
I hope Nvidia fixes this NOW! Just remain focused on materials, lighting and environments for now until you find a way around faces.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
We dont know this. From the few snippets given to us, the devs do not have control over the AI model. Just some sliders that adjust the photorealism aspect of each material or character model.
It's possible that there is more fine grain control over this in the future but the results so far from six different developers show the same AI slop in every single game. People are going by the results here, not the potential of this tech or Jensen's word that this is completely customizable which it is not.
No it's not. How many times do we have to post gifs of hellblade 2, Marvel Avengers, Matrix, Death Stranding 2 (in cutscenes), Kojima's next game OT, and other photorealistic games before the point sinks in? It is already possible on 10 tflops GPUs. It will only get better when we get 30-40 tflops GPUs in a year and a half.
Hell we havent even seen next gen only games from ND, GG, Quantic Dream and SSM at this point. Go look at what ND with doing with 1.8 tflops at the end of last gen and tell me if having AI generate visuals based on pornstars is the only way.
This is literally the definition of lazy. They didnt do any work themselves, and just put their game through a photorealism filter that literally made up the graphics for them. The oblivion upgrade for example is by far the best looking one. The game was built on UE5. We have near photorealistic games shipping on UE5 this gen. It shouldve looked like that at launch.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I mean I am not going to chastise them for being hyped about an insane new tech like this. I too was blown away at first. You can see me literally have an orgasm in my first few posts.
The problem with their first video was that they were too blinded by the hype to think logically. It happens to the best of us. DF are only human. Their mistake was going back to the hotel and getting a video recorded within minutes of seeing the demos to capture the hype they were feeling. And thats unprofessional. They are not hype men. They are not cheerleaders paid for by Nivida. They are tech JOURNALISTS paid for by their viewers. They should've sat on it and done a proper post mortem on it. I know youtubers who literally write a script for their videos and these guys dont even pretend to be journalists. Richard has been a journalist and an editor for 3 decades, he should've known better the limitations of these podcast style reaction videos.
Now that they've had some time to think, you are seeing a more measured approach that should've been there in their first article/coverage of the game. But making reaction videos is cheap and quick, and gets way more hits on youtube then some article on their website.
Wolzard
Member
You base your opinion on other people's opinions and YouTube videos.
Don't you think it would be better to open a book on linear algebra and computer graphics?
Just so that we're clear here, you're disregarding him and that specific video because he researched the information and, not only came to the same conclusion as Digital Foundry in their recent correction video, but also showed that exact same research that DF just did in their correction video (that they should have shown to begin with)?
Just wanted to make sure.
I'm saying this because I've been following the channel for a while, but I recently stopped watching precisely for that reason. He basically does what our friend above does: watches videos from other YouTubers and repeats what they say, but with different words so it doesn't seem like plagiarism.
This is not uncommon, many other smaller YouTubers do the same.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Wow. Amazing.
The combat reminds me of Mass Effect 2. FINALLY!
I love the materials in the platforming sequence. Really gorgeous stuff. I am starting to get so fucking hyped for this gen. After a rough first 4-5 years (with some exceptions) it seems like we are about get a lot of amazing games (both gameplay and visuals) back to back to back over the next 12 months or so.
March Climber
Member
That's irrelevant to the fact that their information literally lines up.
You are discussing character, I am discussing evidence.
Also I just wanted to state for the record here, that his video came out before DF's video, so there was no way he repeated that research information from them.
GymWolf
Gold Member
The materials in the locations look pretty good.
Wolzard
Member
If the developers created a model from scratch, they would get the same result. It's like ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude, they are all essentially the same. What changes is the fine-tuning.
And this is where the developer will come in and vary the results. They can make numerous modifications to the color scheme, as well as make the model ignore objects. I explained this to the friend above, but he refused to understand. Light in games is pixels, and the way they appear is simply brightness and color.
Anyone who has ever edited a photo will notice that with just a few adjustments, you can completely change a picture.
Random photoshop pic
Wolzard
Member
His information is superficial, I've already explained that. There's no point in doing any research if he doesn't have a grasp of the subject.
mrMUR_96
Member
They moved from UE4 to UE5 at least.
Cumulus
Member
That's rich coming from someone who obviously doesn't even know the absolute basics of what he's talking about. And since when is example material not fit for forming an opinion since we're all looking at the same press material after all....
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GymWolf
Gold Member
Georgian Avasilcutei works on Remember Me and Life is Strange at DONTNOD, Dishonored 2 and Dishonored: Death of the Outsider at Arkane, and Hogwarts Legacy at Avalanche.
Is that jensen ackles model?
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Msamy
Member
Yes finally
Msamy
Member
Yes, looks really good
Cumulus
Member
Georgian Avasilcutei works on Remember Me and Life is Strange at DONTNOD, Dishonored 2 and Dishonored: Death of the Outsider at Arkane, and Hogwarts Legacy at Avalanche.
"it's not creating stuff based on someone else's images and hallucinates results"
Porn face Grace begs to differ as do all the scenes that suddenly have Photostudio lighting....
That guy doesn't know an IOTA more than everyone else who watched that presentation. He is still on the "it's just the lighting" track that's been disproven.....
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Wolzard
Member
It certainly looks like it. If you look on ArtStation, he's made quite a few 3D models of famous artists.
Cumulus
Member
Boy, I don't even know where on the stupidity scale I'd rate "someone did good in a completely different field so he must know about that other one, too" .It certainly looks like it. If you look on ArtStation, he's made quite a few 3D models of famous artists.
With your track record so far I'll give it a 10/10
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Bitstream
Member
Some of the "all in" takes basically amount to - everyone that doesn't like this thing I like simply doesn't have the brain capacity to truly understand it. As if they're some kind of technical director at a bleeding edge company and the rest of the world has never owned a computer.
Wolzard
Member
There are different types of arguments:
Few people discuss technical aspects. Those who do clearly don't know what they're talking about. It's not a matter of arrogance, but are you going to talk about relativity if the person says the Earth is flat?
What I observe are purely emotional arguments: "Porn face Grace begs to differ, as do all the scenes that suddenly have Photostudio lighting..."
The mere fact that he mentions "porn face" makes me completely dismiss his argument.
Cumulus
Member
Says the guy who thinks pixels come with a "lit by" sticker, quotes people that still pretend that there are no model changes and likens Photoshop brightness adjustment to directional lighting in motion....
Just wow....
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Wolzard
Member
Says the guy who thinks pixels come with a "lit by" sticker and quotes people that still pretend that there are no model changes.
"Dismiss", lol. More like simply having no answer ...
I already told you to read a book on computer graphics. Don't flood this thread with nonsense.
geary
Member
We had Hellblade (5 hours walking sim done in 5 years), Matrix (trailer), Marvel Avengers (trailer), DS2 (as you said, cutscenes), OT (trailer).
How do scale that efficiently in a game like Crimson Desert? GoY? Starfield... any open world or even linear 30h game, unless the dev time is GTA5 times 3.
On a very small scale or snippets is feasible, on a end to end game with a decent length , you need 10 years.
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Cumulus
Member
You're the last one to tell anyone to "read up".
You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about
CowboyLou
Member
Georgian Avasilcutei works on Remember Me and Life is Strange at DONTNOD, Dishonored 2 and Dishonored: Death of the Outsider at Arkane, and Hogwarts Legacy at Avalanche.
Appreciating your takes on this so far. Just remember you're never going to reason people out of positions they didn't reason themselves into. The ongoing collective gamer freakout is unfortunate and inevitable for numerous reasons, but I keep finding myself coming back to the way gamers love to harp on "artistic vision." Quite indicative of the biploar relationship a lot of folks have with developers. One moment berating and disparaging them, the next, venerating them and never daring question "the vision." As if what makes it to the end product is what the developers envisioned in their heads. As if there isn't massive compromise involved at every step of shipping a video game thanks to time and technology constraints. And as if any new tool in the dev toolbox could ever be a bad thing in the grand scheme.
Grildon Tundy
Member
Somebody keeps leaving laughing emojis on comments. They must be a very happy person!
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Imagine someone takes the time out of their day to engage with you while you spout nonsense. They give you the courtesy of responding to you like a human being and you turn around and laugh at everything they say.
It's so dumb and insulting.
BlownUpRich
Member
Exactly. I don't even need to rehearse and repeat myself, if people want to ride the train of "graphics are stagnating" and cry out "developers are lazy" then there should be something else they need to blame, it's Moore's Law, it is on the way out.
Neural Rendering is the future, Neural Faces look like trash now (I've always been against it since they revealed it in Zorah demo 2025), I will say it is very elaborate technologically, you'd need like a 100x times more compute power to run Grace's DLSS 5 face fidelity-wise if you're using traditional methods, good luck with that!
Slimy's reply is so narrow-minded, and frankly, his expectations are just unrealistic, all he mentioned were a few "games" & a demo with unattainably high effort with extremely limited circumstances & design choices, no wonder why him & some others call devs "lazy" with that mentality, he does not consider the fact that making games has gotten exponentially more difficult & much more expensive & time-consuming, especially in this damn economy. It's a multifaceted issue. Hellblade 2? Are you serious? Marvel 1943? All we got is a trailer & silence for two years now, Matrix demo, oh the 2021 demo that even GTA 6 may not even reach, you know, the game with over $1-2 billions estimated budget & 8 years worth of development with over 3,000 heads working on it? Yeah, seems realistic for the other 99.9% of development studios out there.
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CowboyLou
Member
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Typically every gen we are able to get last gen's linear game graphics in an open world setting. And then some. The same thing will happen next gen. It's a matter of graphics horsepower and we should have enough next gen especially if the 10-12x ray tracing improvements are real. Nanite is already letting devs push movie quality assets in games. path tracing will make them look real life. Nanite is already solving issues where worlds and games get bigger. the vram requirements for Nanite are relatively low. Nanite handles distant geometry without destroying the vram and gpu budget. devs dont have to sit there making different LODs for everything. UE5 editor literally lets them bring in raw movie quality assets into the game seamlessly.
And Matrix isnt just a trailer. I played it for like 30 hours. It's as real as it gets. Perhaps too much for PS5, but the PS6 should be able to do it easily in a game.
These AI guys are all trying to sell you a bill of goods. It's in their interest to do so since they have put in literally over a trillion dollars into AI investments. Up until a few years ago, the same people were pushing ray tracing, path tracing, AI upscaling, virtualized geometry and now all of a sudden they are like nah, lets throw away all of that and let my one size fits all AI model make up the graphics for you??? It is a scam. Do not fall for it.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
We are talking about next gen. Not this gen. Whats not possible this gen, is typically possible the gen after with more graphics horsepower. I cant believe i have to even state this.
You literally said this is the only way forward. No. It's NOT. We are already half way there. Even if we dont get there next gen in an open world game, it will be because we didnt have enough raw horsepower, and maybe instead of a 30 tflops PS6, we needed a 40 tflops PS6 like tim sweeney predicted all those years ago for photorealism. But eventually we will get there. Nanite, path tracing, and even AI techniques like Neural rendering to speed up path tracing will all help get us there.
There is a million other ways to do this. devs are already capturing and loading real life photos in their games. Nvidia couldve trained their model on those assets on a game by game basis. They couldve offered Capcom to train their model on the actual reference shots of the face model. They could've accelerated path tracing using AI similar to how they are doing it for virtualized geometry. They didnt. Instead they took the easy and cheap way out and are using the same AI trained on porn for every single game. It's insulting.
And while me using the term lazy devs might be insulting, you insinuating that the devs cant get there on their own without cheating is even more insulting. At least, i have faith that some of the non-lazy devs can get there. You have given up on their talents. I even praised Bethesda for their massive upgrades in graphics rendering. Defended even its NPCs. I've routinely praised devs who tried to push the bar while the rest of the gaming industry wrote them off. Callisto devs, Respawn, Bethesda, Turn10 were all heavily criticized for one reason after another, but i never once called them lazy devs, and tried to explain that the reason for the poor performance or high CPU or GPU requirements was because these devs pushed the bar. I have faith the ambitious devs will continue to deliver without needing to resort to using porno filters.
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Myuni
Member
This might be the craziest shot showing the difference to me. Wtf.
Jinzo Prime was on to something!
Nvidia already sneaked DLSS 5 into our games, the filthy bastards!
They just did it smart and kept out the face swaps, and everybody was cheering them.
We'll all bear witness tomorrow, when Crimson Desert releases!
Tunned
Member
I love how people get mad over what is going to be an OPTIONAL feature in some games for the foreseeable future.
Just turn DLSS5 off if you don't like it, if you even have a compatible graphics card that is...
I for one can't wait to see what developers do with DLSS5 when they adjust it to their liking.
I bet most of the people hating on DLSS5 are the same people who hate on upscaling tech vs. "MUH NATIVE 4K".
Just turn DLSS5 off if you don't like it, if you even have a compatible graphics card that is...
I for one can't wait to see what developers do with DLSS5 when they adjust it to their liking.
I bet most of the people hating on DLSS5 are the same people who hate on upscaling tech vs. "MUH NATIVE 4K".
CowboyLou
Member
Yeah, but with a correspondingly huge increase in dev timelines, budgets, and team sizes every single time. We're gonna see insane stuff next gen no doubt but it'll probably come from an increasingly small number of studios and games that leverage either insane passion or raw fuck-you money, barring some unforeseen paradigm shift in game development (not DLSS 5). Hungry and ambitious teams are doing insane stuff this gen, but we're often hitting the limits of current dev pipelines and manpower more than we're hitting real hardware limits. We can and do bitch about lazy devs all day, but this industry chews people up and spits them out and the majority of talented engineers and artists are eventually gonna find better, more stable jobs elsewhere no matter how passionate they might be about making games. Leaves us in a real shit spot all around.
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Critical Hit
Member
Actually, I'm not that sure that Nvidia won't abandon DLSS4.
ThisIsMyDog
Member
I just hope my RTX5060ti (16GB VRAM at least..) is going to run DLSS5, man can dream.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I dont know about that. Thanks to UE5, we have seen previously B and C tier studios, chinese and korean developers, and small 20-30 person dev teams routinely outdo big Sony and MS studios in graphics rendering. The trend will only continue next gen when path tracing becomes viable on consoles.
Tunned
Member
I'm with you on this one, at least I think people will have the option of choosing, DLSS with or without neural rendering, we will see, time will tell.
CowboyLou
Member
I'll believe it when I see it. They were telling me at the start of this gen that ray tracing would make development cheaper, faster, and easier. What actually happened is that most games now need double the work on lighting for RT and non-RT versions. I'm going to need some serious convincing that path tracing [possibly] going mainstream will change the trajectory we've been on for decades. Also I love you but your first and third gifs are marketing shots from games that aren't even out yetI dont know about that. Thanks to UE5, we have seen previously B and C tier studios, chinese and korean developers, and small 20-30 person dev teams routinely outdo big Sony and MS studios in graphics rendering. The trend will only continue next gen when path tracing becomes viable on consoles.
is the middle one Delta Force? Didn't play that one.What I am expecting is more Expedition 33-tier games. Small teams using off the shelf tech to make focused games that don't blow my mind but punch well above their weight.
I do like seeing the legacy AAA get humiliated by up and coming smaller studios but only to a point. I really want legacy AAA to get their shit together.
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nkill20
Member
Georgian Avasilcutei works on Remember Me and Life is Strange at DONTNOD, Dishonored 2 and Dishonored: Death of the Outsider at Arkane, and Hogwarts Legacy at Avalanche.
This looks way more convincing that what that demo showed.