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Handhelds not yet suitable for 3D graphics?
- Thread starter SantaC
- Start date
ThongyDonk
Banned
Why have 3d on a handheld?
Consoles are for that, Handhelds are for quirky short pick up and play games.
Consoles are for that, Handhelds are for quirky short pick up and play games.
truffleshuffle83
Banned
hot shots golf,ridge racer, mg:a and a slew of promising titles for the psp in the next two months tend to disagree with your opinion
ThongyDonk
Banned
truffleshuffle83 said:
Already had in Japan and none where really big sellers, compared to console versions. Biggest selling games are new TYPICAL handheld games
Die Squirrel Die
Member
I think it's the reverse actually. Handhelds (well the PSP mostly) are finally suitable for 3D. The desire to see 2D games is a reassurance that this suitability to 3D will not destroy what was until recently the last bastion of 2D gaming. Basically it's the hope that what happened when consoles went 3D, doesn't happen to handhelds.
Then there are the special cases such as Castlevania, but that's more because the gulf in quality between the 2D and 3D versions is so wide.
Then there are the special cases such as Castlevania, but that's more because the gulf in quality between the 2D and 3D versions is so wide.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
It depends on the 3D game.
Portables, I find, are better for games that can be played in shorter periods of time. For instance, I find Mario 64 to be a chore to play on a portable, but have no problem with Super Mario Bros. 3 or Mario World.
Portables, I find, are better for games that can be played in shorter periods of time. For instance, I find Mario 64 to be a chore to play on a portable, but have no problem with Super Mario Bros. 3 or Mario World.
it's not that 3D isn't suited for handhelds, it's that we can't trust developers to make simple, pick-up-and-play games once we let them go and do the 3D thing.
the temptation to turn the game into a console port or wannabe (with similar time overheads associated with slower paced console games) is too great for most developers. Most of the 3D games I have on PSP (and Mario on DS) take way too long to get into.
I want fun quirky simple games that are just fun for a few minutes at a time. I don't want to play some huge epic on a handheld. I'd rather see that effort put into a real console where it can be fully appreciated.
I think many would agree if FFXII were announced tomorrow to be a PSP exclusive... a lot of the credibility of the story is lost by taking an epic game portable, in my opinion.
I know I'm confounding 3D with "epic gameplay", and while that's not the case, it is true that most 3D games are more involved.
the temptation to turn the game into a console port or wannabe (with similar time overheads associated with slower paced console games) is too great for most developers. Most of the 3D games I have on PSP (and Mario on DS) take way too long to get into.
I want fun quirky simple games that are just fun for a few minutes at a time. I don't want to play some huge epic on a handheld. I'd rather see that effort put into a real console where it can be fully appreciated.
I think many would agree if FFXII were announced tomorrow to be a PSP exclusive... a lot of the credibility of the story is lost by taking an epic game portable, in my opinion.
I know I'm confounding 3D with "epic gameplay", and while that's not the case, it is true that most 3D games are more involved.
Obviously the PSP is not aimed at people who think "handhelds are not suitable for 3D graphics", but rather at people who want console-like experiences on the go.
MGA is as much a "quirky short pick up and play game" as Fire Emblem. Lumines, Ridge Racer, MnG, etc. are too. A game being in 3D doesn't mean it can't be a pick-up and play game.
On the PSP the biggest selling games are 3D games (RR, Minna no Golf, Dynasty Warriors). Obviously they're not selling as well as the PS2 versions because the PSP isn't selling as well as the PS2.
ThongyDonk said:
MGA is as much a "quirky short pick up and play game" as Fire Emblem. Lumines, Ridge Racer, MnG, etc. are too. A game being in 3D doesn't mean it can't be a pick-up and play game.
ThongyDonk said:
On the PSP the biggest selling games are 3D games (RR, Minna no Golf, Dynasty Warriors). Obviously they're not selling as well as the PS2 versions because the PSP isn't selling as well as the PS2.
truffleshuffle83
Banned
a 1.5 psp has a plethora of 2D games :lol
sonycowboy
Member
ThongyDonk said:
What??
How is it that 3D inherently makes a game large and cumbersome? The issue with 3D vs 2D, IMO, is 80% about cost to the developer, and 20% getting an 3D action game to have a decent camera to support the action (eg Castlevania). There is absolutely no reason that 3D is inappropriate for a handheld. That's just rubbish.
3D racing games would disagree with that statement. You just jump right in with a few quick races and that's it. One of the DS titles people are looking forward to the most is Mario Kart DS, and that's on a handheld where they'd otherwise say 3D is not done very well. So there are exceptions.
They are suitable for 3D but not ported console 3D.
At the moment we see the same 3D with the same model,level sizes on our portables.
You can't see shit, not on PSP nor DS.
2D changed from Console to portable, see Castlevania, Metroid.
Sprites are more detailed but take less space on the screen.
3D didn't change. except for Nintendogs, there aren't many objects on the screen so everything remains visible.
Other portable 3D games either have a zoomed out picture, or a horribly looking character blocking your sight.
At the moment we see the same 3D with the same model,level sizes on our portables.
You can't see shit, not on PSP nor DS.
2D changed from Console to portable, see Castlevania, Metroid.
Sprites are more detailed but take less space on the screen.
3D didn't change. except for Nintendogs, there aren't many objects on the screen so everything remains visible.
Other portable 3D games either have a zoomed out picture, or a horribly looking character blocking your sight.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
I think racing games are fine-suited for portables. I find racing games to be good pick-up-and-play games.
But hey, that's me.
But hey, that's me.
truffleshuffle83
Banned
my trips to the jon are a little longer than pick up and play 
also i find myself just playing the psp while im home because it offers a different experience than home consoles
also i find myself just playing the psp while im home because it offers a different experience than home consolesI agree that modest use of 3D works better on a handheld. Simpler, more 'matter of fact' and immediate gaming works better on a handheld than vague, bloated and sprawling modern 3D games. It's largely down to games design though, not down to the use of polygons.
Racing games are fine though, as they're pretty simple in terms of gameplay (left, right, faster slower).
Camera controls are obviously a major problem on handhelds too.
Racing games are fine though, as they're pretty simple in terms of gameplay (left, right, faster slower).
Camera controls are obviously a major problem on handhelds too.
Just because there is a preference for 2d doesn't mean good 3d is unwanted. I'm happy to have good 3d stuff, like Ridge Racer, Wipeout, Nintendogs, Lost in Blue, etc. But portable gaming is pretty much the last bastion for original 2d gaming, and (especially in the case of the PSP) 2d looks so good that of course many really want more of it. And at the same time, 3d is so, so much easier for devs to do wrong, and it can often ruin games, imo (Splinter Cell CT, Rayman 2, Ridge Racer DS, etc).
iced lightning
Member
I prefer 2D over 3D on any platform.
If you were to believe Nbots, 3D graphics on handheld systems is a Bad Thing. The PSP is often given the blame of trying to kill off 2D.
The exception is when a DS title comes along with inferior, PSOne-quality visuals (see: RE DS). Then the devoted seem to go apeshit over those crude 3D graphics.
The exception is when a DS title comes along with inferior, PSOne-quality visuals (see: RE DS). Then the devoted seem to go apeshit over those crude 3D graphics.
All I can say is, if PSP is any indication what 3D on handhelds will be like, 1)Expensive handheld consoles. 2)Handheld games costing just as much as console games., in the future, then I'm not for it unless they come up with a reasonable pricing structure.
When it comes to handheld gaming of the past, the trade off for less than stellar graphics has always been a cheaper price for games and hardware. I would like to see that trend continue.
When it comes to handheld gaming of the past, the trade off for less than stellar graphics has always been a cheaper price for games and hardware. I would like to see that trend continue.
wobedraggled
Banned
Kuroyume said:
It's time for YOU to die.
I think both are great for handhelds.
Despite the large number of racers on the PSP, it IS a genre perfectly suited for on-the-go play. Ridge Racers and Wipeout are perfect games anytime, anywhere. I see no problem with moving forward with 3D graphics on handhelds.
The problem is related to the fact that the hardware is just TOO powerful for such small budgets. Fact is, doing a 2D game for the higher resolution of the PSP screen is actually MORE expensive than doing a 3D game.
Budgets for handheld games are typically much smaller, so the more powerful hardware demands more time and effort. It won't just be PSP. Any handheld moving beyond DS class visuals will require more work.
Despite the large number of racers on the PSP, it IS a genre perfectly suited for on-the-go play. Ridge Racers and Wipeout are perfect games anytime, anywhere. I see no problem with moving forward with 3D graphics on handhelds.
That's not quite accurate...
The problem is related to the fact that the hardware is just TOO powerful for such small budgets. Fact is, doing a 2D game for the higher resolution of the PSP screen is actually MORE expensive than doing a 3D game.
Budgets for handheld games are typically much smaller, so the more powerful hardware demands more time and effort. It won't just be PSP. Any handheld moving beyond DS class visuals will require more work.
Beer Monkey
Member
Some games just work better in 2D. When you force games like Worms and Lemmings to switch to 3D, you make the baby Jesus cry and the terrorists win.
Outcast2004
Banned
ThongyDonk said:
why is it when someone bring is their opinion on a topic, someone always chimes in with JAPANESE sales.
Why do you really care?
Do you live there? Probably not...
Do you get a cut of the money from sales? Nope.
I think the reality is that 2D games are an older medium -- the original form of gaming. Developers have had a longer time to see what works, tweak and perfect it. To learn from others' mistakes and swipe others' innovations. I think that's why it's easier to make a good 2D game.
True 3D gaming is relatively new -- just over a decade old. There are still tons of bugs to iron out of design, controls, the problem of the camera, etc. 3D gaming is a more complex undertaking overall and is still going to take quite a while until we get to the point where there are more exceptional, finely tuned 3D games than there are mediocre, ugly or just plain bad 3D games.
True 3D gaming is relatively new -- just over a decade old. There are still tons of bugs to iron out of design, controls, the problem of the camera, etc. 3D gaming is a more complex undertaking overall and is still going to take quite a while until we get to the point where there are more exceptional, finely tuned 3D games than there are mediocre, ugly or just plain bad 3D games.
Fact is, the DS is very successful and sports a great lineup in Japan. The PSP is not doing nearly as well.Outcast2004 said:
On the flipside, the PSP is performing better at retail than the DS in the US (and soon, maybe Europe) and the DS lineup is NOWHERE NEAR as good. There are all of like two US titles that appeal to me on DS, but there are tons of Japanese titles that look great.
Fans will always bring up the region where their machine of choice is most successful.
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
I think the general consensus on this forum is that 3D is fine when it looks fine. And since it doesn't look fine on the DS, please concentrate there on 2D. I don't see why it has to be a jab at either system.
SantaCruZer said:
Well...this is a (hardcore/geek) gaming forum...we're not a good representation of the typical consumer and developers shouldn't generally listen to what we want if they want sales, especially in this case I think.
And concerning the topic itself, I don't mind 3D games...I think they work well on PSP for example (and, at times, for DS as well)...I'm all for both 2D and 3D on handhelds, as long as the hardware can handle both properly.
Leatherface
Member
2d 4 life!
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
Flynn said:
that's a good point. I really disliked it on psp for the same reason.
Well, that's different as the DS has no analog option. Its buttons are VERY "digital", if you know what I mean.Flynn said:
The PSP could handle a game like Mario just fine, however. Its controls are perfectly fine for 3D platformers such as that. They don't necessarily feel as good as a dedicated controller, but they get the job done (at least for me). Of course, a lot of folks still seem to dislike the nub...sooo...
cyberheater
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2-D is great. And so is Disco and platform shoes and A-line flares with pockets at the knees and all of the 80's but this is 2005 now and times have moved on.
RR and Wipeout pure on PSP is a stunning example of what's achievable on the move. Sooner or later we'll have true (real) depth 3-D gaming on the move. That day can't come quick enough.
/still wants the Ninty nREV VR helmet thing he saw on a fan tribute vid...
RR and Wipeout pure on PSP is a stunning example of what's achievable on the move. Sooner or later we'll have true (real) depth 3-D gaming on the move. That day can't come quick enough.
/still wants the Ninty nREV VR helmet thing he saw on a fan tribute vid...
I've been wanting a portable Twisted Metal ever since the first rumors of a CD-based "PlayStation portable" started circulating in 1997. Then we (or at least the Japanese) got the PocketStation, and the rumor seemed like just another baseless rumor.
Twisted Metal has short battles, doesn't need analog control, is a wonderful multiplayer game, and is great to whip out anytime. It's an ideal portable game, and it's great that there are now handhelds that can do it (the DS could at least do TM1, and it'd look better, too).
I love 2D as much as anyone, but there's no reason whatsoever that Meteos or Kirby or Lumines are more portable games than Mercury or Twisted Metal.
So, uh, I guess my point is that this thread is pointless. Unless you're talking about platformers exclusively, in which case hell no they're not suitable.
Twisted Metal has short battles, doesn't need analog control, is a wonderful multiplayer game, and is great to whip out anytime. It's an ideal portable game, and it's great that there are now handhelds that can do it (the DS could at least do TM1, and it'd look better, too).
I love 2D as much as anyone, but there's no reason whatsoever that Meteos or Kirby or Lumines are more portable games than Mercury or Twisted Metal.
So, uh, I guess my point is that this thread is pointless. Unless you're talking about platformers exclusively, in which case hell no they're not suitable.
jgkspsx said:
Again, I think that Mercury falls into the control category. A game that requires that find of control needs better than what the PSP (or the DS) offers as far as control.
Twisted Metal on the other hand plays like a dream. I think racing games benefit as 3D portables because the don't require the analog stick.