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CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Tonight, political war breaks out over the swift boat ad, and John Kerry come out swinging against the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Well, if he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam, here is my answer: Bring it on!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Plus, do military records contradict one of Kerrys harshest critics? Well talk to the former swift boat commander at the center of this political firestorm, Larry Thurlow. And Kerry-Edwards supporter former senator Max Cleland talks about why the war in Vietnam haunts this election.
Lets play HARDBALL.
Good evening. Im Chris Matthews. The shots at John Kerrys Vietnam record were dealt a blow today when a Washington Post reporter uncovered military records of one of Kerrys war critics that, in fact, support Kerrys version of events in Vietnam. Were going to talk to that reporter in a minute.
But first, Larry Thurlow is the Vietnam veteran who was the subject of todays Washington Post report. He commanded a Navy swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam and says Kerrys boat did not come under enemy fire when he retrieved Lieutenant James Rassmann out of the water. He also appeared in the swift boat veterans ad thats called Veterans for Truth.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: If you ask any question about what John Kerrys made of, just spend three minutes with the men who served with him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I served with John Kerry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I served with John Kerry.
GEORGE ELLIOTT, LT. COMMANDER, 2 BRONZE STARS: John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam.
AL FRENCH, ENSIGN, TWO BRONZE STARS: He is lying about his record.
LOUIS LETSON, MEDICAL OFFICER, LT. COMMANDER: I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury.
VAN ODELL, GUNNERS MATE 2ND CLASS: John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star. I know. I was there. I saw what happened.
JACK CHENOWETH, LT. J.G., NAVY COMMENDATION MEDAL: His account of what happened and what actually happened are the difference between night and day.
ROY HOFFMAN: John Kerry has not been honest.
ADRIAN LONSDALE: And he lacks the capacity to lead.
LARRY THURLOW: When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry.
BOB ELDER: John Kerry is no war hero.
GRANT HIBBARD: He betrayed all his shipmates. He lied before the Senate.
SHELTON WHITE: John Kerry betrayed the men and women he served with in Vietnam.
JOE PONDER: He dishonored his country. He most certainly did.
BOB HILDRETH: I served with John Kerry. John Kerry cannot be trusted.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is responsible for the content of this advertisement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Larry Thurlow, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I admire your service, certainly. Let me ask you, sir, about the quote that you have in this ad. It saysand these are your words, speaking them in the advertisementWhen the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry. Why do you say that?
LARRY THURLOW, ANTI-KERRY SWIFT BOAT VETERAN: Mr. Matthews, the main reason I say that is because it became apparent early on that John Kerry had a master plan that went far beyond the service in the swift boats, and because of the fact that he was trying to engineer a record, so to speak, for himself, he was not a trustworthy member of a very tightly-knit unit that counted on each other at every second. And once it became apparent that he had this plan that kind of excluded what was required of us at certain times, it became apparent to me that you could not count on him.
MATTHEWS: When did you first become aware of this plan?
THURLOW: I became aware of it as a combination of events started to transpire, where it became apparent to me that he wasnt being truthful about how he reported certain incidents and how hein his own description back then was, he was quite a cowboy, which at that particular time, that you didnt follow orders, did you as you pleased and you kind of just looked out for yourself and didnt really care about your shipmates.
MATTHEWS: Tell me about the time you discovered that he wasnt honest about his account of events. When did you first discover that habit of his, as you say?
THURLOW: Well, on a firsthand basis, I understood that the Purple Heart that he received at Cam Ranh Bay was fabricated and wasnt based on any factuality at all, but...
MATTHEWS: How did you learn that, sir?
THURLOW: I learned that from the people who had been with him at that time, when he reported that he received an injury from hostile fire, when in fact, there was none.
MATTHEWS: Who was the person who told you this, that he didnt deserve the Purple Heart?
THURLOW: The peoplekeep in mind...
MATTHEWS: Can you give me a name, sir?
THURLOW: The name I would give you, after the fact, is Dr. Letson.
MATTHEWS: No. At the time. At the time. You said at the time this happened, you discovered he had a habit of fabricating the truth.
THURLOW: I cant give you a specific name. It was a crew member that came from Cam Ranh Bay to our division.
MATTHEWS: But could you help us figure out who it might be? Youre saying the man had a record of not being honest about his battle bravery. I just want to know how we know this is true or not.
THURLOW: OK. The only name that comes to mind now is a guy that is actually a member of our group. But what Im telling you...
MATTHEWS: Whats his name?
THURLOW: ... is the story...
MATTHEWS: We want to talk to him.
THURLOW: Steve Gardener (ph).
MATTHEWS: Since hes yoursince hes your source, we just want to know who he is.
THURLOW: Steve Gardener.
MATTHEWS: Steve Gardener. And he told you at the time that John Kerry received his first Purple Heart that he didnt deserve it?
THURLOW: Well, what happened is he said that he received an injury due to a mistake he made when he fired an M-79 close aboard and was hit by his own shrapnel. That doesnt constitute a Purple Heart. Youve got to be injured by hostile fire.
MATTHEWS: And he told you that at the time? Steve Gardenerin other words, if I get him on the show, hell say he told you, Mr. Thurlow, at the time this happened...
THURLOW: Hes going to say...
MATTHEWS: ... that he didnt deserve...
THURLOW: Hes going to say...
MATTHEWS: ... that John Kerry got an award he didnt deserve?
THURLOW: Hes going to say that he reportedJohn Kerry was awarded the Purple Heart eventually. Or actually, hes going to tell you that John Kerry applied for a Purple Heart that he did not merit.
MATTHEWS: At the time he told you. OK, lets go on to the issue of the Bronze Star, which is far more important here. You received a Bronze Star in action for going back to thator going to that ship that hadyour fellow swift boat, that had hit a mine. Why did you get the Bronze Star?
THURLOW: I felt like I got the Bronze Star because I helped save the guys that were injured on there and then helped save boat from sinking.
MATTHEWS: Were you under enemy fire at this time?
THURLOW: No, I was not.
MATTHEWS: Why did your citation say so?
THURLOW: Because John Kerry had written an after-action report to cover the entire incident. And in this after-action report, he reported that we were not only under enemy fire, we were under intense enemy fire.
MATTHEWS: Did his after-action reportdid that become the report that was the language in your citation? Do you know that for a fact?
THURLOW: Well...
MATTHEWS: For a fact? Do you know thein other words, do you know for a fact that it was his account of the action that you both survived that led to the language in your citation? Do you know that for a fact, sir, Mr. Thurlow?
THURLOW: Well, because my commanding officer wrote up the citation, and the only thing he had available to him was that report, yes, the part about the hostile fire would have come from that report.
MATTHEWS: Do you know for a fact that it was John Kerrys words or account that led to yourthe language in your citation? Do you know it for a fact? Would you swear to it? This is what were getting into here. We need clear accounts of what happened with John Kerry and whether he really did deserve to get a Bronze Star or not.
THURLOW: The fact of the matter...
MATTHEWS: Can you say for a fact that he wrote himself up, that he got credit because he gave himself credit and thats why you got credit for taking the action you did, the brave action you did to save the men and save that boat, that fellow swift boat? You both benefited, youre saying to me now, because of his after-action report. You both benefited in the citations.
THURLOW: Well, actually...
MATTHEWS: Youre saying that.
THURLOW: His after-action report reported none of the action I took about saving the men or the boat. His after-action report...
MATTHEWS: But do you know nowright now that the testimony that you were both under fire, intense enemy fire...
THURLOW: Came from his report.
MATTHEWS: ... you say that was not the caseyou know for a fact it was his report that led to the language in your citation? Thats all I want to know.
THURLOW: The reason I believe it was from his report is because hes the only one that filed one and the fact that heand the reason I know he filed it is because his boat was the central figure in the report. The 3 boat was the one that was mine and badly damaged, but yet the report tells about John Kerry coming back to get Rassmann under intense fire and only casually mentions anything else that even happened that day.
MATTHEWS: What I dont understand is why you deserve a Purple Heart for taking the action you did, and you say...
THURLOW: I (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Purple Heart.
MATTHEWS: ... you were not undernonono, not the Purple Heart...
THURLOW: I didnt get a Purple Heart.
MATTHEWS: ... the Bronze Star. The Bronze Star, that you deserve the Bronze Star, you were awarded the Bronze Star, fair enough, and you say you were not under enemy fire. Youre now saying that John Kerry doesnt deserve the Bronze Start because he wasnt under enemy fire. Arent you both in the same boat? Didnt you both do about the same thing, both get same award? And why are you complaining that he doesnt deserve it, if you deserved it?
THURLOW: I felt like I got the award because I saved some peoples lives and saved the boat. What I say...
MATTHEWS: Well, he saved Rassmanns life, according to Rassmanns own account.
THURLOW: OK...MATTHEWS: Why doesnt he deserve the award?
THURLOW: Well, II dontIm not quibbling about the award.
Im saying he lied about the...
MATTHEWS: Oh, yes, you are, sir!
THURLOW: ... account.
MATTHEWS: You are out here in an advertisement saying, quote, When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry.
THURLOW: Thats exactly right.
MATTHEWS: Thats a pretty strongbecause of what are you saying this?
THURLOW: Because he had this master plan that was...
MATTHEWS: You gotgive me an example.
THURLOW: ... to promote his...
MATTHEWS: OK, lets to go your theory of the plan. Have you seen it written down? Have you heard him tell his account to someone? How do you know, in any real way, he had this plan?
THURLOW: Because of the fact that he engineered three Purple Heart incidences that allowed him to go home after he spent about one third of his tour there.
MATTHEWS: But thats your account of what happened. He was there for four months.
THURLOW: Thats exactly right.
MATTHEWS: He did win the three Purple Hearts. He did get the Bronze and the Silver. And you say he had some plan to get an award as a battle hero ahead of time, but you cant tell me how you know he had this plan.
THURLOW: I know he had this plan because of what happened not only then but after the fact.
MATTHEWS: Did you have a plan to win the Bronze Star? You won the Bronze Star. Did you have a plan?
THURLOW: No, in fact, I didnt...
MATTHEWS: Why is winning the Bronze Star...
THURLOW: I didnt apply for it.
MATTHEWS: Why is winning the Bronze Star evidence of having had a plan to win one? I dont get it.
THURLOW: Well, Iwere not even talking about him having a plan to win the Bronze Star.
MATTHEWS: Can you honestly tell me now, sir, that you could swear in open court that you know that John Kerry, when he was a lieutenant JG in the same theater you were in had some plan for winning medals? Do you know that for a fact?
THURLOW: OK. In other words, present evidence that he had this plan?
MATTHEWS: Yes.
THURLOW: Of course, I couldnt.
MATTHEWS: Well, what...
THURLOW: Im basing it on my observations.
MATTHEWS: These are after-the-fact observations. You say he had a plan ahead of time to make himself a war hero to get elected to office.
THURLOW: Im saying that he had a plan that included not only being a war hero but getting an early out.
MATTHEWS: But you admit you have no tangible evidence.
THURLOW: I have my own personal observations.
MATTHEWS: Of what?
THURLOW: And youre right, it is not tangible evidence.
MATTHEWS: OK, so you dont. Let me ask you about...
THURLOW: Im not in a court of law here.
MATTHEWS: Well, Im just trying to get...
THURLOW: Im telling you what I...
MATTHEWS: Ill tell you what. You have involved yourself in a presidential election. Let me ask you this.
THURLOW: Yes, I have.
MATTHEWS: Is John Kerrys war record a legitimate issue in this presidential campaign?
THURLOW: I think it is because hes made it the central plank of his run for nomination.
MATTHEWS: Fair enough. Then should the president have a legitimate right, should he choose to do so, to talk about it?
THURLOW: Should the president?
MATTHEWS: Should the president of the United States, whos running against John Kerry, have thedoes he have the right, as we speak, as you see it, to raise this issue in debate, if it comes up?
THURLOW: Does the president...
MATTHEWS: Is he allowed to talk about it?
THURLOW: You talking about President Bush?
MATTHEWS: Thats right.
THURLOW: Does he have the right to bring it up?
MATTHEWS: Yes.
THURLOW: President Bush wasnt there. So why would he bring it up?
THURLOW: No, no. Im talking about, is he allowed to raise what youve said about your fellow officer? Is he allowed to go into the debate and say, I hear from your fellow officers that you were not the hero you claim to be? Is that a fair enough tack for the president to take in this campaign? Is it a legitimate issue? Youre raising it as a campaign issue. Im asking you, if its a campaign issue, why cant both candidates talk about it? Thats all Im asking.
THURLOW: No, Im notIm raising the campaignthe reason Ive raised this issue is because I want the American people to hear the truth that I know...
MATTHEWS: Right, but youre...
THURLOW: ... and then let them make a decision.
MATTHEWS: But isnt it fair to say youre doing this because John Kerry is a candidate for president?
THURLOW: Yes.
MATTHEWS: OK.
THURLOW: This is the first time I would have ever had a chance to vote for him.
MATTHEWS: Well, of course. Of course. Thats fair enough. But is it fair enough for the president to counter-charge and say he doesnt believe John Kerrys the hero he claimed to be at the Democratic convention?
THURLOW: I dont think so because he wasnt there. He doesnt have the evidence I do.
MATTHEWS: Is he allowed to believe you?
THURLOW: Hes allowed to believe whoever he wants.
MATTHEWS: In other words, you want everybody in the country...
THURLOW: Hes an American citizen.
MATTHEWS: ... to believe what youre saying right now, Mr. Thurlow...
THURLOW: Certainly.
MATTHEWS: ... but not to let the president of the United States count on it as a campaign issue.
THURLOW: Thats entirely up to him. Im telling you...
MATTHEWS: Oh, it is up to him. OK. Im (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Why do you think its OK for a person who didnt serve in Vietnam to criticize someone who did?
THURLOW: I did serve in Vietnam.
MATTHEWS: Im asking you about the president. You said its up to him. If its up to the president whether to attack John Kerry for being in Vietnam, what did he over there, is it OK with you, that a guy who didnt serve criticizes a guy who did?
THURLOW: Well, I dont know that he has criticized...
MATTHEWS: As a veteran.
THURLOW: As a veteran?
MATTHEWS: Im just asking you a simple question. Is this a campaign issue for both candidates to contend with or isnt it?
THURLOW: Well, its a campaign...
MATTHEWS: Or is it just you against John Kerry as a side shot at one of the candidates?
THURLOW: ... issue that John Kerry ran out there. And the thing I think is that the president wouldnt have anyyou know, what would he base...
MATTHEWS: OK, let me ask you this...
THURLOW: ... the statements on?
MATTHEWS: ... very simply. If President Bush the otheris asked a question, he come out and says, Well, I hear from this fellow officer, in fact, he was the commander of the swift boat, the head of the teamhe says this guy didnt deserve all the acclaim he got at the convention. Would that be OK with you?
THURLOW: Well, it would be OK with me if he wanted to do it, but why would he want to do it?
MATTHEWS: To defeat his opponent.
THURLOW: Hes gothes got...
MATTHEWS: The same reason you want to defeat this guy. You dont think he should be president.
THURLOW: Wellthats exactly right. I dont think he should be president.
MATTHEWS: Well, thats fair enough. Theres nothing wrong with it. Say ityou have a million times in this country a free opportunity to say so. Im asking you...
THURLOW: Youreyoure exactly right.
MATTHEWS: ... should George Bush be allowed to raise this issue in the campaign?
THURLOW: If he wants to, he...
MATTHEWS: Otherwise, its just you.
THURLOW: ... certainly should be able to.
MATTHEWS: In other words, its OK, for you, for a guy who didnt serve in Vietnam to attack a guy who did? Thats all I want to know.
THURLOW: Well, I dont think a guy that didnt serve in Vietnam should attack some guys record that did serve in Vietnam, if he has no personal knowledge of it.
MATTHEWS: But if he has the knowledge because of you, should he be able to do it?
THURLOW: He has no personal knowledge. Hes...
MATTHEWS: OK.
THURLOW: What mywhat I feel...
MATTHEWS: OK, were going back to your personal knowledge, sir.
THURLOW: ... on him is he hasnt...
MATTHEWS: The problem is, you havent produced any personal knowledge about this plan you talked about, Mr. Thurlow, and thats the problem tonight.
THURLOW: No, what Iwhat I...
MATTHEWS: This plan has not been authenticated. Thats the concern I have. Anyway, thanks for coming on.
Coming up, the Washington Post reporter who broke the story about Larry Thurlows Bronze medal and the citation accompanying it.
Youre watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.