Support NeoGAF

[TheSadRanger]

Meh, sorry I have to disagree.

Valla is one of the highest skill cap heroes in the game. The pros can play her well because the team can adjust to her very low damage at the start of a fight, and her tiny hit point pool. But outside of pro level play, even at masters and diamond level, Hammer, Zul'Jin and Raynor all have a higher win rate and Tychus is basically at the same level (apologies for triggering Brian!).

I think in theory she's the best, but in practice I don't think we have anyone capable of playing her to the point where she's the best. To be honest, more often than not I prefer something else over her because there are a LOT of bad Valla players who are way too aggressive with her and feed constantly.

Well and that's one of my issues, they took focused attack away from Valla and replaced with a shitty (hit heroes 100 times with a basic attack) quest. Which is actually hard if your trying to play a bit conservative and stay back. Especially if there is few encounters because the enemy team rarely commits or vice versa unless there's an advantage.

Yet they let Raynor and Hammer keep it who are way more hearty and have self sustain.

Valla has to get close too, if you hang back too much ppl will go "Valla wtf are you doing, yet if you get aggressive people will call you a feeder.

Why play Valla when I can play Raynor or Zul'jin who do single focus range dmg much better or go her MS build when I can play a mage and do it much safer.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Which mage does it better and what exactly do Zuljin and Raynor do better?

 

[scoobs]

Well and that's one of my issues, they took focused attack away from Valla and replaced with a shitty (hit heroes 100 times with a basic attack) quest. Which is actually hard if your trying to play a bit conservative and stay back. Especially if there is few encounters because the enemy team rarely commits or vice versa unless there's an advantage.

Yet they let Raynor and Hammer keep it who are way more hearty and have self sustain.

Valla has to get close too, if you hang back too much ppl will go "Valla wtf are you doing, yet if you get aggressive people will call you a feeder.

Why play Valla when I can play Raynor or Zul'jin who do single focus range dmg much better or go her MS build when I can play a mage and do it much safer.

Valla had focused attack? I don't remember that. I know she had searing attacks...

You should play her W build, its far better in all scenarios outside of BoE (go Q build for immortal burn). Here's my build w/ her, it owns. You'll own with it too.

Valla does everything better than Raynor, and most things better than Zul'Jin. Zul'Jin just does way more fucking AA damage.

 

[Maledict]

And yet Raynor wins more often than Valla, even at the highest levels of play.

Not to overlabour. the point, but Valla is a lot harder to play well than most heroes, and unless you are breaking into the pro-scene I think you are better served with other choices right now. Great hero, and if you are skilled and practiced with her you can be amazing - but on average, others do better just cause she's so hard to play really well.

(Whereas raynor is almost mindless)

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Neither players nor Blizzard are relying solely on win rates. They nerfed Li Ming when percentage wise she was fine for a long time, which was the right move. During drafting I'm still not happy seeing a Zeebo over a bunch of heroes with a worse winrate.

 

[Maledict]

Neither players nor Blizzard are relying solely on win rates. They nerfed Li Ming when percentage wise she was fine for a long time, which was the right move. During drafting I'm still not happy seeing a Zeebo over a bunch of heroes with a worse winrate.

Well I'm absolutely with you there. I'm mentioning it in this circumstance because another pro was talking about Valla in their stream recently (can't remember who) and saying the same thing - in hero league, Valla often isn't that great because players don't have the skill to know when to go in with her and secure a kill, and they don't understand how bad he is at rotations if she can't keep her hatred stack up.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

That's true for too many heroes.

 

[scoobs]

While all of this is true, simply dismissing heroes as unplayable or inferior because you're not good at them (Nazeebo and Valla) is equally wrong.

Stats don't tell the whole story, but it's something tangible you can point to to say "hey look, apparently some people can play this guy effectively."

People can be good at Valla. People can be good at Nazeebo, and it's OK that you aren't. You don't have to be good at every hero, that's why there's like 60 of them to choose from.

 

[Maledict]

I'm good at nazeepo - I just think his spiders ability is pretty crappy still for the payoff it gives, and it disappoints me the stupid wall build seems to be the better build still.

I was just taking issue with the 'she's by far the best ranged dps in the game' stuff that was being flung around. She's a good hero, but she isn't all that, and most of the time I'd prefer someone else in that spot because most Valla players aren't too great. She's very hard to play, and she can't do some stuff that every other ranged dps hero can (rotations).

(Her inability to rotate on maps other than Tomb is actually a big thing. Think Cris was talking about it, and saying how people don't realise if you draft her you will be outrotated because of her ramp up time, and you need to play accordingly).

 

[Kioshen]

Okay, so a little update (not afraid to share specifics here like some... )

I've spent just shy of $850 since 2/22/15.

You know what, mine's not too bad then. Just done a fresh calc and mine adds up to 183$us which goes up to around 250$ca. I could count the hero variety bundle that I bought during alpha but then when I was refunded during the big switch I used it to buy hearthstone packs. The first hero that I bought with gold was Stiches on 7/27/2014. Funny thing is that I raged quit the game when they implemented the artifact system and thought the dev team just didn't know what they were doing and wanted to do nothing with it ever again.

Edit: Oh god I just did the same calculation but for hearthstone ... thank goodness my wife doesn't look at my transaction history on b.net ...

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Sure but we aren't just speaking about playing with but also playing as.
Would Cris rather pick Valla or Raynor when given the option. If you had to pick between the two of them to learn who would you go for.

It all depends on the quality of the player but at some level Valla becomes the best by almost any margin.

 

[scoobs]

Ya but 99.99% of players aren't even a fraction as talented as pros like Chris, so what they say really doesn't apply to any of us (even though people take it as gospel). I don't know if there's a hero in the game that is a bad pick for 95% of the player base. Maybe Cho'Gall.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Of course, just mentioned Cris because he was brought into the discussion.

Medivh would be my pick

 

[brian!]

It always comes down to what ur trying to talk about in the end, if you're trying to talk objectively about what a hero can or cant do and trying to rate them this way you can get closer to a hero's actual ability. If your argument is that players are bad w/ a hero and that only good players can eek out that hero's potential you arent really talking about the hero anymore

Valla's poorish winrate has as much to do w/ teammates not knowing how to play w/ her or build comps around her as it does w/ ppl playing her poorly.

Just checked hotsloggy and valla's winrate is a respectable 53.3%, so her winrate dece too

Korean hgc open division being streamed, wizgod participating http://twitch.tv/teaminven

 

[Alur]

I don't find the "new" Valla any harder to play than the old Valla, honestly. I thought it was a pretty good rework overall after I dug into it. I typically build off her trait (and a W talent or two) and in 21 games since the rework I have an 80% winrate with her. Milly likes going Q build IIRC, and of course other folks advocate the W build. I didn't realize the trait build is the most popular, but it's the one I prefer. I just try to stutter step my cowboy hat off every chance I get and AA 'em to death.

Her damage is good, her mobility is good. I find her pretty survivable as well, honestly, though I do understand people getting nervous and wanting to back down when they get chunked. And, in some ways she is very mage-like in the fact that some games there's really just not anything you can do because your front line is nonexistent or plain bad and you are just shut down, so it's feed or do no damage.

I certainly find Valla easier to play respectably than Zul'jin bar people pumping damage numbers with Taz'Dingo (aka loading up on carbs). For me, she's also easier to play than Raynor and Tychus, as well, but those two may just be me. Part of it could be that she's my most played hero on my main account (though not my most played across all accounts), but then again I didn't play her for at least a solid year after she dropped out of favor post Alpha/Beta until sometime after her rework.

Just checked hotsloggy and valla's winrate is a respectable 53.3%, so her winrate dece too]

Where'd you see that? Front page has her at 49.5%, which is also respectable, but that's a decent gap.

 

[Kioshen]

Regarding Valla, I do agree that she's harder to bring out her full potential than other AA assassins like Raynor or Zul'Jin. Raynor is pretty one dimensional and that's alright too since we need different skill floor and cap heroes to have a varied selection. Valla just has a thinner margin of error than most because she can be blown up more easily than other heroes in her category. She's trading that weakness for a whole bunch of flexibility and utility.

 

[brian!]

Oh my b i filtered for masters, i always do when im looking for reasonable info

 

[Alur]

Regarding Valla, I do agree that she's harder to bring out her full potential than other AA assassins like Raynor or Zul'Jin. Raynor is pretty one dimensional and that's alright too since we need different skill floor and cap heroes to have a varied selection. Valla just has a thinner margin of error than most because she can be blown up more easily than other heroes in her category. She's trading that weakness for a whole bunch of flexibility and utility.

I don't find Zul'jin easier at all. You will, conceivably, do more damage. And if you time your heroic, perhaps you will not die in a team fight and get to pump said damage, but often ZJ ends up out of position trying to get damage in and has to pre-preemptivelyuse Taz'Dingo. He might take out one or two, but he will end up feeding. Outside of every 90 seconds, it's harder to get solid damage in than Valla, IMO.

Raynor is a different story. I think if we're comparing ease of use, if you aren't stutter stepping constantly as Raynor you're significantly gimping yourself. You can do respectable damage on Valla without stutter stepping if you're so inclined thanks to her other abilities, but with Raynor you're either stutter stepping like a mad man or you might as well play someone else. Since his health nerf I've never really found him more survivable than Valla. I'll take the Vault and the ability to reposition over the delayed health regen anyday.

Oh my b i filtered for masters, i always do when im looking for reasonable info

The problem there is it's usually just not very many games and typically heroes have hugely inflated win rates there due to matchmaking being all over the place for Master level players...after all, being in masters, you're winning significantly more than 50% of your games. Just being in Diamond I win 54.2% of my games across the lifetime of my account.

I always do Diamond and Master as that usually pulls enough to make it more than a minuscule sample size.

 

[brian!]

Yeah agree on masters being a small sample but u kno me and taking hotslogs as gospel, and i kind of decided that id rather view a list of "what are master players taking" vs. the broader view that masters/diamond filtering gives since i dont trust the judgement of na diamond. I also tend to ignore talent choice winrate unless it's a huge outlier

 

[Milly79]

Masters are still bad

 

[brian!]

Low masters yeah since it's fairly easy to break into and they are still labeled as master league despite a range of hundreds of mmr within the category, but highish master/grandmaster usually know whats up

 

[Alur]

ITT and the previous three threads brian! subtly shits on all of us from his throne in high Masters and we secretly enjoy it.

 

[Kioshen]

I don't find Zul'jin easier at all. You will, conceivably, do more damage. And if you time your heroic, perhaps you will not die in a team fight and get to pump said damage, but often ZJ ends up out of position trying to get damage in and has to pre-preemptivelyuse Taz'Dingo. He might take out one or two, but he will end up feeding. Outside of every 90 seconds, it's harder to get solid damage in than Valla, IMO.

Raynor is a different story. I think if we're comparing ease of use, if you aren't stutter stepping constantly as Raynor you're significantly gimping yourself. You can do respectable damage on Valla without stutter stepping if you're so inclined thanks to her other abilities, but with Raynor you're either stutter stepping like a mad man or you might as well play someone else. Since his health nerf I've never really found him more survivable than Valla. I'll take the Vault and the ability to reposition over the delayed health regen anyday.

The ramp up with Zul'Jin is his health missing while valla needs hatred stacks. Being out of position with Zul'Jin is more of a symptom of being a new hero with no escapes so people rely on taz'dingo thinking they'll get out.

That's the thing with Raynor. All you have to do is position yourself correctly (either by stutter stepping or having a better angle) and you'll do sustain damage all day with the occasional burst from talents. He has higher safety margin by having a longer range baked in with a self heal but that's all he can do.

In any case, Valla was one of my most played hero before the shake up. After her rework however, it never really clicked for me. Since I still don't understand how to maximize her potential I'll probably need to shut up about it.

 

[brian!]

Uh if it helps you feel better i dont think qm mmr matters at all since the mode is random and when i check hotslogs it's by hero league...

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Fun fact I've not even played yet ITT.

 

[brian!]

Like my enjoyment w/ this game is playing casually and critically thinking about it, im never gonna get upset if someone in my game is playing poorly

 

[Milly79]

I forgot mention that it's two weeks in a row Jake got THH up on iTunes right after the show. I probably just jinxed this...

 

[Alur]

The ramp up with Zul'Jin is his health missing while valla needs hatred stacks. Being out of position with Zul'Jin is more of a symptom of being a new hero with no escapes so people rely on taz'dingo thinking they'll get out.

That's the thing with Raynor. All you have to do is position yourself correctly (either by stutter stepping or having a better angle) and you'll do sustain damage all day with the occasional burst from talents. He has higher safety margin by having a longer range baked in with a self heal but that's all he can do.

In any case, Valla was one of my most played hero before the shake up. After her rework however, it never really clicked for me. Since I still don't understand how to maximize her potential I'll probably need to shut up about it.

I really don't find Raynor has a higher safety margin at all because there's no escape. He can AA from slightly farther back, but it's not like it's hard to close that gap. In theory, yes, but when we see it play out in the real game Valla is almost always tougher to deal with and harder to pin down.

Like my enjoyment w/ this game is playing casually and critically thinking about it, im never gonna get upset if someone in my game is playing poorly

Welcome to the 1% of the 1%. Even Kyle Fergusson gets upset sometimes.

I forgot mention that it's two weeks in a row Jake got THH up on iTunes right after the show. I probably just jinxed this...

I left him a slightly stern message on reddit in one of his THH threads about it a while back. Maybe it got to him.

 

[brian!]

I basically agree w/ what zuna said on stream one time, how am i gonna get mad at my team if i didnt play the situation perfectly

 

[Alur]

Because it's always someone else's fault don't you get it

 

[Karsticles]

What are the differences between this game and DotA2?

 

[Milly79]

Did you? I've hassled him on twitter plenty of times to no response. Not like the guests are worth a shit this week anyway.

 

[Maledict]

What are the differences between this game and DotA2?

Far too many to list (unlike most mobas, it really is it's own thing), but I'd say the biggest was the fact the average match is 20 minutes long, and they can often be faster.

 

[Syf]

The no shop or items thing is a pretty big difference too

 

[Maledict]

The no shop or items thing is a pretty big difference too

Yep, the lost is really long. When I'm trying to sell people on the game though, the first thing I mention is the game length - it's such a difference. I can get 3 games of hots in with my mates in the timespan of one game of Dota.

Means I'm far less likely to be a toxic **** all evening when we get a bad game!

 

[brian!]

Because it's always someone else's fault don't you get it

Let us return to the words of the prophet bkid
https://clips.twitch.tv/bkids2/BreakableHerdJKanStyle

 

[Alur]

What are the differences between this game and DotA2?

~20 minute games. No last hitting. Mounts. No items (replaced by several talents at certain levels). Heroes are not all free, though there is a free rotation (think League's model, more or less). Very short laning phase. More teamfighting earlier. Something like 11 or 12 maps at this point, not counting special maps for Brawls/ARAM.

So on and so forth. They are quite a bit different. More action, less contemplating would be the way I'd describe it.

Did you? I've hassled him on twitter plenty of times to no response. Not like the guests are worth a shit this week anyway.

Yeah, I asked him why CORE and ITN could get theirs up the same night or the next day but he couldn't when his was supposed to be the "best" and had only one show to manage while they had multiple.

Let us return to the words of the prophet bkid
https://clips.twitch.tv/bkids2/BreakableHerdJKanStyle

That was awful. I cannot believe you saved that. smdh

EDIT: I kid. Maybe I bkid. Nah, it was p bad.

 

[brian!]

Voice of an angel
I thought the video was an announcement for a new diablo character when i heard it?

 

[Alur]

Can go jam that new Gorillaz track if you want some spoken word.

 

[brian!]

Yah gorillaz rules

 

[Syf]

https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/5ou7n7/tassadar_the_templar_not_the_sentry/

I like this post. High templar are feared for storms and feedback. Tass doesn't really feel like one pls redo

 

[Prelude.]

I love QM. He spent more than 1/3 of the match dead.

 

[brian!]

https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/5ou7n7/tassadar_the_templar_not_the_sentry/

I like this post. High templar are feared for storms and feedback. Tass doesn't really feel like one pls redo

Yeah i love this thread, ppl going ham in it + that one blizz post being all yeah we're trying to balance the game not re-release tass as an assassin

 

[Kioshen]

Like my enjoyment w/ this game is playing casually and critically thinking about it, im never gonna get upset if someone in my game is playing poorly

Good to know. I'll keep asking to pair up then if I see you online.

In other news, Valeera's spotlight is up.

 

[brian!]

Hell yeah man

 

[Milly79]

Baeleera

 

[kirblar]

And yet Raynor wins more often than Valla, even at the highest levels of play.

Not to overlabour. the point, but Valla is a lot harder to play well than most heroes, and unless you are breaking into the pro-scene I think you are better served with other choices right now. Great hero, and if you are skilled and practiced with her you can be amazing - but on average, others do better just cause she's so hard to play really well.

(Whereas raynor is almost mindless)

Raynor's also been broken for a long ass time.

Actually broken, not just opop.

 

[Maledict]

Yeah i love this thread, ppl going ham in it + that one blizz post being all yeah we're trying to balance the game not re-release tass as an assassin

I think they need to bite the bullet on this one and acknowledge their design for Tassadar is utterly flawed. He doesn't in any way feel like playing the fantasy of a Protoss high Templar, and his fundamental kit is fairly bad full stop. Instead of half measures, they should just put him back in the oven completely and rebuild the character.

He stands out amongst all of HotS characters as just a failure - in terms of kit and theme.

EDIT: I'm only using numbers since he was fixed Kirblar, I'm not a complete noob!

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

as someone who's not versed in SC lore I like Tassadar a lot. For me fixing the talent diversity was all that's needed.

 

[Syf]

I play SC a lot. Still like playing him but he doesn't fit the high templar part at all really. HT are high damage units with little survivability on their own. If you let light units stand in a storm for any amount of time you're asking to lose the game. And feedback does major damage to any single target with high energy. In HotS storm is more of a tickle and instead of feedback he has shields. It's weird. Maybe they should make him an assassin and work on adding more supports that are actually supposed to be supports to the game :^)

But like I said I still like playing him. Just would be cool to have a proper templar in the game.