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Heroes of the Storm Technical Alpha Thread: [Artifacts Removed]

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The artifacts are a gold sink forcing you to buy new heroes instead of grinding for them. And knowing Blizzard, they'll put the artifacts on sale for purchase too.


one day only sale!!! Come one come all, look at the extravagant artifact bundles we have today. For only $22.99 you can get the screw casual artifact bundle! Or get the gotcha virtual goods for only $66!!! Now that's a sale! One day only folks get it while it lasts.


It's cute seeing blizzard trying to nickel and dime us with these new releases.
 
I like him a ton too. Great new addition.

After playing through a few games I have to say artifacts....you were as bad as I thought you were going to be. As Gazlowe I can solo hard camps at level 1 now, it is a mechanic that only scares away newcomers and (worst of all) Blizzard seems completely blinded by money and 'progression systems' to see why this is only a detriment to the game.

I'm willing to bet decisions like this are why Pardo and other major talent are leaving Blizzard. They caught the Activision bug.
 
Blizzard is taking an approach like they're already top dog. Problem is in this genre they aren't even close to that and it's an incredibly tough on to break. LoL is probably the most popular game in the world and dota 2 is no slouch either. People are heavily invested in these games and it won't be easy to get people to switch. Surely eventually the amount of new players out there trying to get into the MOBA genre will start to diminish.

Blizzard should be doing everything they can to increase the players base before they start trying to suck every dollar out of them that they can. I think they'll still manage to get a decent playerbase if only because of the IP they're leveraging but i think they could have done much better. Blizzard really are coming way too late to the party and without a good enough showing to make up for it.
 
Blizzard has been on a role. First Warlords being a $50 expansion instead of $40 because of the "free" lvl 90 boost, the laughable pricing on the Hearthstone Naxx wings if the first one is anything to go by (yea you can get them all with gold by holy shit at the money they want if you go that route, plus cards are locked behind it), and now this shit with artifacts.

There is nothing wrong at all with the Hearthstone Adventure pricing. The expansion is EASILY purchasable using just in-game gold. If people just want to fast track to get the 30 cards that come with the adventure than they have the option to send the $20 or maybe they only need one or two wings.
 
Hearthstone only has 9 classes to level up. Additionally, you're always allowed to go into arena and play with random decks without any arbitrary locks. Moreover, you can always get builds with cards from packs so that you're not completely screwed even if you take up a new class at level 1.

Considering that MOBAs usually have 50+ heroes at least (and if successful HOTS will probably get to a 100+), the grind would be insane, especially for newcomers. Locking out talents is like giving you half a Hearthstone deck.

Good news is that the game is not even in Beta, so they can iterate more aggressively on this.

I doubt HotS will "Launch" with more then 50, but I suppose it's possible. In any case, I do agree that it's more outrageous here, just that they are similar systems. I hate that I have to play 10 games with a shitty mage deck before I can unlock the "Real" cards for it.

I doubt Blizz will put artifacts for purchase for money. While it's always stylish to hate on companies, Blizz has been pretty firm in it's WoW shop for not selling anything that gives real benefits, and I suspect they'll want to keep that for HotS. That said, it defiently makes it harder to buy heroes with money, so it will serve to encourage more spending for sure.
 
Just to re-iterate, the gated talents are utterly stupid. The amount of experience required to level a hero, even at the very early levels, is completely ridiculous. I'm really not sure how anyone verging on sane could have thought these were appropriate amounts.

Maybe if they reduced the requirements down by 75% or so it would be better. The level requirements aren't slightly off - they are an entire factor out in terms of how much is needed per level.
 
Rehgar seems really OP atm, which is fine because I'm enjoying him far more than I anticipated.

Abathur's two new damage talents actually seem pretty decent. Towards the end of games, it seems Stab and Spikes do enough damage to make it a bit more viable to stick it on a knight merc or minion and push a lane if you can't find something better to do.
 
Blizzard is taking an approach like they're already top dog. Problem is in this genre they aren't even close to that and it's an incredibly tough on to break. LoL is probably the most popular game in the world and dota 2 is no slouch either. People are heavily invested in these games and it won't be easy to get people to switch. Surely eventually the amount of new players out there trying to get into the MOBA genre will start to diminish.

Blizzard should be doing everything they can to increase the players base before they start trying to suck every dollar out of them that they can. I think they'll still manage to get a decent playerbase if only because of the IP they're leveraging but i think they could have done much better. Blizzard really are coming way too late to the party and without a good enough showing to make up for it.

That's one of my biggest problems with their approach to this game. Even their shareholders are banking on this game being a financial success. So far I've seen nothing to indicate this will be anywhere near as successful as even Hearthstone. Though I guess if they keep upping their nickel and diming scheme then they'll be able to generate a good profit off a smaller userbase.
 
Gated talents makes noooooo sense.

Like I get the gold sink to force skin and hero purchases.... from a business model standpoint... fine. I don't like it. But fine.

But why gate the talents? I've already said this - this forcing of "maining" or focusing on one hero is promoting BAD HABITS and BAD PLAY. The game should embrace diversity and the Blizzard world of its rich characters. One of the things that got me so interested in the game was the fact that they were promoting a talent system that allowed for various builds and types of play without the need of purchasing items. This completely negates that. I've got to play a character for 20 or so games... consistently... before I can enjoy the POSSIBILITY of his/her diverse gameplay.

Meh.
 
Talent gating makes me not even want to play any hero that's not one of my current most played. So I haven't actually played as Rehgar yet. But playing with and against several of them makes him come off as a Tyrande style support. While Tyrande is better for ganks and guerilla tactics, Rehgar is great at straight up fights. Especially when he has Bloodlust. Both are solidly in the Utility+DPS Support group, but unlike Tassadar can actually heal a decent amount throughout the game.

As someone that likes Hammer I currently prefer Tyrande on my team, especially after her buffs.
 
The artifacts are a gold sink forcing you to buy new heroes instead of grinding for them. And knowing Blizzard, they'll put the artifacts on sale for purchase too.

No shit, but having more heroes doesn't make you win. Not by a longshot. In fact, with Talentgate™ it probably makes you strictly worse.

And as far as for actual money...not sure why you'd think that. I get that it's fun to hate blizz, and this patch is monumentally fucking stupid, but they flat out said that artifacts would always only be for gold. What reason do they have to go back on that? It won't make them any extra money. At some point the complaints become 'It's Blizzard and I don't like them' rather than based on any kind of factual reasoning. Artifacts are dumb. Talent gating is dumb. Those two things do not however mean that artifacts are now pay to win or that they're gonna start selling artifacts for cash.
 
Talent gating isn't botherng me as much as I expected. The artifact stuff is, but I dunno, I really do enjoy the core of the game. I imagine then it must be a pretty shitty MOBA; I'm unlikely to enjoy the rest of the game regardless the more it tries to be one, and can already see myself looking up the best artifact build onine and never touching it again, which I imagine would be totally not the point.
 
That's really the problem I have. The base game is still so good. Everything else about this update is fucked up. Oh, and I guess Rehgar is okay.

I'm just waiting for someone to find a big enough bullshit thing caused by artifacts.
 
Got into the alpha. Haven't unlocked artifacts yet but the base game is extremely fun. I can't believe how much I enjoy the game. I don't like the artifacts aspect but I'm reserving judgement right now.
 
My hope is that they pushback already told them they have to change it back, they're just going to do it in a big announcement to earn some goodwill "See, we're not monsters!"
 
Wow, will it take forever to buy a hero at this rate. They really have to up the gold they give out. Progression system my ass.
 
Damn... The Gold per quest completion fell through the floor, but the addition of gold per game is very welcome. If I didn't log back on with 70K gold I would probably have a different opinion of the new slot system, but currently it's just one more way to further customize builds.
 
Damn... The Gold per quest completion fell through the floor, but the addition of gold per game is very welcome. If I didn't log back on with 70K gold I would probably have a different opinion of the new slot system, but currently it's just one more way to further customize builds.

But it's not. You actually are just bad if you don't take the 'right' artifacts per hero, which are mostly obvious. If you put health on kerrigan you're actually JUST worse than the person who puts attack damage or attack speed. Even if there are heroes where situations may dictate using one over another (mostly the hybrid-y supports or some tanks could fall into this position, no assassins), you wouldn't have any idea when those situations were occuring and still couldn't make a 'decision' about anything. You just have to pick the artifacts that are correct the most often and hope that's what type of game you get.

And yes, 70,000 gold was their way of making sure high level players had EVERY artifact. To get 70,000 gold now would take like a year, and you wouldn't be able to unlock a single hero while doing it.
 
In terms of games, how are people finding pick up groups? My losses tend to fall into two different groups. Either:

A) People focus on watch towers and ganking right from the start, and ignore laning. We might even get a couple of kills, but the level difference from laning soon racks up and the entire game is a loss. A lot of people don't seem to realise how much experience you get from laning and how you need someone camped in each lane, in range of the fights, constantly for the first 10 minutes (outside of key objectives).

B) We do well at the start, maybe even push a bit, win some objectives. Then a team fight will happen, we'll lose and from that point on will just feed the enemy team solo or in pairs. People seem to not understand that when the other team starts running round in a group of 5, in the mid to late game, you need to do the same. The maps are too small to allow you to push and solo effectively elsewhere, and you just end up feeding the opposing team as they run around and annihilate objectives and camps.

The second type of loss is the most infuriating because it feels like a winning game thrown down the sink. There's no point pushing solo down one lane whilst they are pushing as 5 on all the merc camps - they'll get the camps faster than you can do any decent damage, and then come and gank you.
 
Oh, and in terms of artifacts the life steal one has to go. I ran into a Valya today who could out heal my damage as Malfurion with her auto-attacks. I could do nothing in the lane at all and was pushed out with ridiculous ease thanks to it - assassin classes shouldn't be that durable,
 
Artifacts are stupid, the amount of gold given out needs upped if they keep them in, and talent gating is even stupider.

Some questionable decisions by Blizzard since I last played. Glad to know they haven't changed.

I did watch the dev Q&A searching for answers, and the response by Dustin Browder to pretty much everything was "we wanted to give you more shit to unlock!" which is a terrible design philosophy, in my opinion.

Hopefully all of this crap gets reverted sooner rather than later and they can think of more creative solutions.
 
No shit, but having more heroes doesn't make you win. Not by a longshot. In fact, with Talentgate™ it probably makes you strictly worse.

And as far as for actual money...not sure why you'd think that. I get that it's fun to hate blizz, and this patch is monumentally fucking stupid, but they flat out said that artifacts would always only be for gold. What reason do they have to go back on that? It won't make them any extra money. At some point the complaints become 'It's Blizzard and I don't like them' rather than based on any kind of factual reasoning. Artifacts are dumb. Talent gating is dumb. Those two things do not however mean that artifacts are now pay to win or that they're gonna start selling artifacts for cash.

I agree with everything you said, but the fact that they spent weeks of development time even implementing this bullshit in the first place speaks quite loudly.
 
Just to re-iterate, the gated talents are utterly stupid. The amount of experience required to level a hero, even at the very early levels, is completely ridiculous. I'm really not sure how anyone verging on sane could have thought these were appropriate amounts.

Maybe if they reduced the requirements down by 75% or so it would be better. The level requirements aren't slightly off - they are an entire factor out in terms of how much is needed per level.
There is also the problem that matchmaking doesn't distinguish between who has advanced talents and who doesn't. I got placed against a team with all advanced talents and level 10 artifacts which was oh so much fun. They pushed us instantly at the start and we're doing insane damage.

I hope blizzard changes this, as Heroes at its core is an exceptionally well polished and fun game. Gating talents, pushing players to spend their gold on artifacts that ruin the game and then buy heroes with real money because gold was spent on artifacts is just greedy. Don't ruin the game blizzard before its even out.

Also, Valla is so damn powerful. Squishy yes, but I can deal so much damage with artifacts now that I can burn down pudge. Crazy.
 
Blizzard is taking an approach like they're already top dog. Problem is in this genre they aren't even close to that and it's an incredibly tough on to break. LoL is probably the most popular game in the world and dota 2 is no slouch either. People are heavily invested in these games and it won't be easy to get people to switch. Surely eventually the amount of new players out there trying to get into the MOBA genre will start to diminish.

Blizzard should be doing everything they can to increase the players base before they start trying to suck every dollar out of them that they can. I think they'll still manage to get a decent playerbase if only because of the IP they're leveraging but i think they could have done much better. Blizzard really are coming way too late to the party and without a good enough showing to make up for it.

I find the base gameplay of Heroes more fun than League and DOTA. That isn't going to be true for everyone, but it is for me and it validates the fact that Blizzard has made something that is at least somewhat fun to some people. There is even some irony in that, given the fact that the original DOTA on WC3: Reign of Chaos played a lot more like Heroes than DOTA 2 (or even Allstars, for that matter). Blizzard has an interesting game here, but they're really screwing things up outside of the game itself.

I wish they'd put more effort into bringing more heroes and maps into the game first, since that's what is actually going to drive the engine--whether players stick around will be based on whether they have a good time actually playing the game.
 
I find the base gameplay of Heroes more fun than League and DOTA. That isn't going to be true for everyone, but it is for me and it validates the fact that Blizzard has made something that is at least somewhat fun to some people. There is even some irony in that, given the fact that the original DOTA on WC3: Reign of Chaos played a lot more like Heroes than DOTA 2 (or even Allstars, for that matter). Blizzard has an interesting game here, but they're really screwing things up outside of the game itself.

I wish they'd put more effort into bringing more heroes and maps into the game first, since that's what is actually going to drive the engine--whether players stick around will be based on whether they have a good time actually playing the game.

Yep. This is my stance, I WANT them to fix the game because I legitimately find it fun. You can still have fun now, but it's the annoying voice in the back of your head as you play that you should be able to make more choices, not be so disadvantaged, that shit saps a player's fun in a hurry. Ignorance is bliss - most of the people who seem to be enjoying artifacts are truly ignorant of how they're affecting the game overall, same for talent gating.
 
I'm still getting used to the in game UI.

Is there anyway to check the level of the pubs I group with? What about those that I face?

I'm trying to gauge how well I'm doing against higher level opponents. Are lack of artifacts gimping me? Are gated talents gimping me?
 
Talent gating is not bothering me right now because the only character I had to unlock talents on was Rehgar. I'm sure it will burn my ass at release.

Assuming the folks on reddit got their math right, grinding for 10 months to buy all artifacts and ranks is going to mean essentially having to play all the time to stay somewhat on par with everyone else (let's say 8 months more realistically for people who are only going to buy artifacts best for the characters they use), unless they make artifacts part of the matchmaking system, which I doubt greatly.

Having to not only grind but grind on a schedule is one of many reasons I barely play MMOs anymore, so now that I've given this a week(ish) I'm going to be providing some fairly negative feedback.

Biggest issue I'm personally experiencing with the character leveling atm is the exp needed after level 7. Ouch.

I'm still getting used to the in game UI.

Is there anyway to check the level of the pubs I group with? What about those that I face?

I'm not aware of a way to check anyone's level outside of LFG.

I'm trying to gauge how well I'm doing against higher level opponents. Are lack of artifacts gimping me? Are gated talents gimping me?

The answer to both questions is yes. Maxed out artifacts giving +40% mana pool, -10% cooldown on abilities, or +10% ability damage and healing are absolutely anecdotally noticeable. Lack of 3rd and 4th talents is an even bigger issue, albeit completely dependent on the character you're playing.
 
I'm still getting used to the in game UI.

Is there anyway to check the level of the pubs I group with? What about those that I face?

I'm trying to gauge how well I'm doing against higher level opponents. Are lack of artifacts gimping me? Are gated talents gimping me?

The only thing you can do is try to add them to your party after by rightclicking all over the post-game results screen. Well, that was before this patch.
 
I'm still getting used to the in game UI.

Is there anyway to check the level of the pubs I group with? What about those that I face?

I'm trying to gauge how well I'm doing against higher level opponents. Are lack of artifacts gimping me? Are gated talents gimping me?

It's both, but who knows which one matters more. Probably artifacts.

I'm still stupefied by the fact that the designers even thought all of this was a legitimate idea to begin with. What a joke.
 
Bu...bu... progression!

I was playing Diablo and was floored that it would take 4-6 games in order to unlock his remaining abilities. Abilities I have been using for ages. To add insult to injury the crucial slow ability was locked.

Thanks Blizz, I progressed...backwards.
 
Here's a hypothetical scenario. Let me know how realistic it is.

So a player starts playing a new character and at level 1, they have 4 talents! They can't choose! They sit there so long that the gates are already open by the time they choose. Then they hit level 4! They end up getting ambushed in lane while they're reading all that text and figuring out what they want.

Okay, let's just focus on the first two. There. They have simpler traits and less text to read in those two slots. Perfect.

Alright, let's get up that progression track. Alright, my character level is 2! Oh wait, next time I'm in a game there's an extra talent. Gotta stop and read it. How does this fit into my build? What's the next new talent, could that fit into my build? New Player gets ambushed in lane again anyway.

Repeat over, and over, and over, until they have all the talents unlocked, have tried them all; figured out a build they want. It's better to just throw them in so they can figure out what they like from earlier. You can even highlight the first talent or two as the beginner or recommended talent. But unless you sit and read up before the game starts, you're still at risk of option paralyzation.

Seems believable?
 
Here's a hypothetical scenario. Let me know how realistic it is.

So a player starts playing a new character and at level 1, they have 4 talents! They can't choose! They sit there so long that the gates are already open by the time they choose. Then they hit level 4! They end up getting ambushed in lane while they're reading all that text and figuring out what they want.

Okay, let's just focus on the first two. There. They have simpler traits and less text to read in those two slots. Perfect.

Alright, let's get up that progression track. Alright, my character level is 2! Oh wait, next time I'm in a game there's an extra talent. Gotta stop and read it. How does this fit into my build? What's the next new talent, could that fit into my build? New Player gets ambushed in lane again anyway.

Repeat over, and over, and over, until they have all the talents unlocked, have tried them all; figured out a build they want. It's better to just throw them in so they can figure out what they like from earlier. You can even highlight the first talent or two as the beginner or recommended talent. But unless you sit and read up before the game starts, you're still at risk of option paralyzation.

Seems believable?

This sounds a lot like how many of my early DOTA and LoL games went.
 
I was really excited for this game. Everything I heard about it seemed great for me, someone who doesn't play MOBAs but wants too. All the others seemed like too much of a time/money sink. The team progression and everything seemed great. I can play kinda casually and still feel like I was at a level playing field with people who played a little more hardcore. They'd be better purely by skill. This new system seems to really shit on the new players. It pretty much takes away everything that originally had me interested in the game. I know it's an alpa and they say things can change but will it really? It's a bummer cause I really wanted to get into this.
 
I was really excited for this game. Everything I heard about it seemed great for me, someone who doesn't play MOBAs but wants too. All the others seemed like too much of a time/money sink. The team progression and everything seemed great. I can play kinda casually and still feel like I was at a level playing field with people who played a little more hardcore. They'd be better purely by skill. This new system seems to really shit on the new players. It pretty much takes away everything that originally had me interested in the game. I know it's an alpa and they say things can change but will it really? It's a bummer cause I really wanted to get into this.

you still can. its an alpha and none of these changes may make it to release, at least not with this kind of outcry so far (its only been a week). ofcourse if the system is still in place when its offically release then your concerns are warranted. Heroes really is a fun MOBA at its heart.
 
you still can. its an alpha and none of these changes may make it to release, at least not with this kind of outcry so far (its only been a week). ofcourse if the system is still in place when its offically release then your concerns are warranted. Heroes really is a fun MOBA at its heart.

Been gone on vacation so I missed artifact-ageddon, but this is pretty much how I feel as well.

New form of talent gating = short sighted.

Artifact system = nope nope nope. If they want to drain gold, find another way that doesn't make you an instant gimp if you miss launch, for example, or take a vacation or what have you.

That said, the outcry against this artifact system (and to a lesser extent, the talent changes) has been the most unanimous uproar against a feature I have ever seen in a game that wasn't an MMO. I will be shocked if this doesn't get scrapped or severely changed to be more palatable for all levels of play before we get to beta, let alone launch.

People throwing up their hands and saying "LOL shit game, kthxbye will never play again" who haven't even played it are ridiculous. People doing the same thing in an alpha where they have done a pretty good job listening to feedback aren't much better.

The new systems do sap the jump in and play casual aspect they appeared to be going for right out of the game. They are a pretty smart company who've made some great games and expansions. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they'll see reason.

EDIT: Would also like to add it's quite funny that on other forums/reddit/GAF I saw so many people claiming it was too simple, too casual...and now the claim is (rightly) this will kill it for casuals by the same people who wanted it to have more complexity. Point being, bad decision or not, people have been waiting to jump on this game's jugular from the first announcement.
 
Been gone on vacation so I missed artifact-ageddon, but this is pretty much how I feel as well.

New form of talent gating = short sighted.

Artifact system = nope nope nope. If they want to drain gold, find another way that doesn't make you an instant gimp if you miss launch, for example, or take a vacation or what have you.

That said, the outcry against this artifact system (and to a lesser extent, the talent changes) has been the most unanimous uproar against a feature I have ever seen in a game that wasn't an MMO. I will be shocked if this doesn't get scrapped or severely changed to be more palatable for all levels of play before we get to beta, let alone launch.

People throwing up their hands and saying "LOL shit game, kthxbye will never play again" who haven't even played it are ridiculous. People doing the same thing in an alpha where they have done a pretty good job listening to feedback aren't much better.

The new systems do sap the jump in and play casual aspect they appeared to be going for right out of the game. They are a pretty smart company who've made some great games and expansions. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they'll see reason.

EDIT: Would also like to add it's quite funny that on other forums/reddit/GAF I saw so many people claiming it was too simple, too casual...and now the claim is (rightly) this will kill it for casuals by the same people who wanted it to have more complexity. Point being, bad decision or not, people have been waiting to jump on this game's jugular from the first announcement.

Honestly, it's the principle of it. How could something this stupid even be thought of as a good idea by so many people? It's mind blowing to me.

And the way they defended it was atrocious too. "It's only a few games, we just want to give you more stuff to unlock" Are you serious? The feeling of unlocking something sucks when getting there to unlocking it makes you feel gimped (talent gating).
 
Honestly, it's the principle of it. How could something this stupid even be thought of as a good idea by so many people? It's mind blowing to me.

And the way they defended it was atrocious too. "It's only a few games, we just want to give you more stuff to unlock" Are you serious? The feeling of unlocking something sucks when getting there to unlocking it makes you feel gimped (talent gating).

They didn't 'defend' it that way, they defended the decision to try it in the first place. The foundation of : 'Having goals to unlock is fun' is solid and attractive to many players, the problem was what they went for. Browder was posting that *HE* wasn't convinced about talentgating for a lot of the reasons players weren't, like the day it got announced. That's not how Blizz works. This shit is horrible and needs to die, but I get where they came from in trying it. I still wouldn't have but, y'know, that's ok I don't mind being smarter than them.
 
Right. Getting angry over this is just silly. It's Alpha. Things change. If you strongly dislike it - articulate your feelings on the forums and they will listen.

They want the game to succeed. The problem is that if the runes/artifacts are removed - there *WILL* be some other gold sink implemented in its place. The game's function is not just delivering a good product to the gamer... but also to create a method of generating income to the developer. This is ESPECIALLY true if the game is "Free" to Play.

I just wonder what they'll come up with in its stead.
 
I'm still concerned about the pace of change. They have said they are on a monthly patch cycle, which to me reiterates the fact this is a beta in all but name. However, one hero every month means either the game doesn't come out until 2020 or it will launch with far too small a roster.

I'm not sure what Blizzards plans are for the game, but one thing I have grown to appreciate about dota 2 over the last couple of weeks of this alpha is the variety brought by having such a significant hero roster. Right now, because there's only 25 heroes, you see a lot of the same faces every game and that's not good for overall balance and enjoy ability.
 
Hobart#1152

If you aren't playing Hearthstone and you wanna HOTS. Add me in general - I've been trying to play more frequently.
 
I'm still concerned about the pace of change. They have said they are on a monthly patch cycle, which to me reiterates the fact this is a beta in all but name. However, one hero every month means either the game doesn't come out until 2020 or it will launch with far too small a roster.

I'm not sure what Blizzards plans are for the game, but one thing I have grown to appreciate about dota 2 over the last couple of weeks of this alpha is the variety brought by having such a significant hero roster. Right now, because there's only 25 heroes, you see a lot of the same faces every game and that's not good for overall balance and enjoy ability.
How big a roster do you think it needs I think 30-40 ish would be fine for a launch. I don't think it needs to be in DOTA2 Heroes territory.
 
League "launched" with about 40 champions, and had about 20 champions at the start of closed beta. Assuming HOTS follows the soft release schedule that Hearthstone had, I guess they could do open beta with 20 and then "full launch" with 40 as well.
 
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