Support NeoGAF

[bender]

It's fine not to want to make products but games are expensive and involve a lot of staff. With all those mouths to feed, you need to find financial success and that is something that Platinum Games seems to struggle with consistently.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

I own and like all of their games, except babylon's fall, and I think that is the thing that made kamiya turn away.
PG was formed after some of the clover guys left Capcom and created Seeds inc. with the goal of "breaking away from a sequel driven industry".
Now kamiya isn't averse to sequels, he himself said the full story of bayonetta would need like 9 games, and while bayonetta is their flagship title (like RE for capcom), they have generally managed to stay true to that goal:
Bayonetta, Vanquish, Sol Cresta, Anarchy Reigns, W101, Metal Gear rising, Astral Chain, Nier Automata and transformers are all bangers, and their less well received games are still well made.

It just feels like with world of demons and babylon's fall PG was starting to look at a different slice of the pie for income, and kamiya probably knows about a bunch more projects like those and didn't like it, which is fine, he should pursue whatever makes him happiest; Team Little Angels are in charge of bayonetta any way, so not much will change there, if anything.

 

[Lionel Richie]

I think Platinum has been a shit studio for the better part of their existence tbh. They were good with the first Bayonetta and Vanquish, and then with some external projects like NieR. But most of the times what they release is budget trash. I respect them for MG Rising since it was apparently being cooked up in mere months. But on a personal level I didn't like the game, it looked awful, level design was horrible and the gameplay wasn't that good too imo (terrible weapon system, no evade button etc).

I don't see why this studio is so revered. Okay, 2 of their first 4 games were good (I didn't like Mad World and Anarchy Reigns), then according to their fans they needed to get a shot at every IP out there. All their games I played, let it be Bayonetta, Vanquish, Transformers, MG Rising... even NieR.. they all use the same slow mo gimmick that got tiresome to me. And with Babylon and TMNT they created outright stinkers. And Bayonetta hasn't really become much improved from the first game onward.

Really, those guys were better off as Clover Studios with Capcoms backing. I know Capcom closed them, but Capcom itself has reinvented itself since and creates excellent games PG can only dream of.

This is a very ignorant post and I'm not sure how the narrative of "Platinum isn't that good guys!" became a thing. In the past 6 years alone they have done Automata, Astral Chain, The Wonderful 101 (come on, nobody had a Wii U), Bayonetta 3 and Bayonetta Origins. These are all legendary games and pretty much the best in class for action games outside of DMC V. Sure you don't see why they're so revered?

What action games that came out in the same period do you consider to have good gameplay?

 

[Hypereides]

(...)

I think we are closer in opinion than you think about this and that there is a misunderstanding happening here lol.

(...)

Here is what's happening: you are speaking about gameplay design, whereas I'm talking about gameplay feel. In your case, PS2 B-tier games are fine conceptually because it breeds creativity. That part I'm fine with. However, in my specific case I don't feel like they are fine in control scheme, because it makes 'random Namco action game' feel like crap to control. It has been proven that controls don't need to have any bearing on difficulty, because you can create a difficult video game without it needing to control in an obtuse, unresponsive, or stiff manner.

If anything, a developer purposefully using bad controls and making their game unresponsive in today's age, as a crutch to make a game more difficult, means it is a skill issue for them because they couldn't figure out how to do it without mucking up the controls.

Maybe. Although, I think we may still differ on what exactly defines "bad" and "unresponsive" controls for either of us. Out of curiosity, can you give me a example of a specific modern game that's "stiff", "obtuse" and/or "unresponsive" in your view?

Sometimes innovation or new ideas may get introduced under seemingly "obnoxious" or "obstructive" control schemes. But, hey, what do I know.

 

[MasterDerico]

It's hard to take it seriously when looking at the plot of the Bayonetta series.

So...try to explain what is "art" for you ?
You can't. Because art is subjective.

No matter what it is, art synthesize your emotions...
Some feel it, others don't.

 

[Lucie Goosey]

I respect this man. The world needs more beauty.

 

[Gambit2483]

I respect this man. The world needs more booty.

Agreed.

 

[March Climber]

Maybe. Although, I think we may still differ on what exactly defines "bad" and "unresponsive" controls for either of us. Out of curiosity, can you give me a example of a specific modern game that's "stiff", "obtuse" and/or "unresponsive" in your view?

I dunno. Sometimes innovation or new ideas may get introduced under seemingly "obnoxious" or "obstructive" control schemes. But, hey, what do I know.

The unfortunate thing is that aside from some B-tier Japanese action and anime games out there, the other examples I would give are games that still went on to be successful in spite of their bad controls, i.e. Witcher 3, where even Witcher fans were saying 'yea the controls aren't great, but the storytelling is amazing'. However, the usual rebuttal I'm met with when that game is brought up is 'well, it must be good if it sold well' which is an odd form of justification.

 

[Astral Dog]

Hideki Kamiya is a great game director but he is a creative, he doesn't do market research or listens to shareholders he just makes what he wants to make.

he taught everything he could about game design at Platinum,i wish the best for him and this company continues to deliver quality games.

also Kamiya clearly stayed to complete Bayonetta since after Wonderful 101 his other proyect was cancelled(and Scalebound), its not going to be easy to find a good partner willing to give him the resources to make what he wants, but if he thinks its the best choice its valid as any

 

[Dick Jones]

I would have loved if IGN hyped the interview and when you click the link the first question is in English so Kamiya replies "Blocked!"

 

[Astral Dog]

My gut feeling is that this was the game that was the last straw for him:

He wasn't involved in that afaik

He supervised Astral Chain and the Bayonetta games

 

[Gambit2483]

Hideki Kamiya is a great game director but he is a creative, he doesn't do market research or listens to shareholders he just makes what he wants to make.

he taught everything he could about game design at Platinum,i wish the best for him and this company continues to deliver quality games.

also Kamiya clearly stayed to complete Bayonetta since after Wonderful 101 his other proyect was cancelled(and Scalebound), its not going to be easy to find a good partner willing to give him the resources to make what he wants, but if he thinks its the best choice its valid as any

It feels like he wants to be looked at and treated like a "Kojima", but I just don't see it happening...not to discredit his achievements and past works.

 

[March Climber]

He wasn't involved in that afaik

He supervised Astral Chain and the Bayonetta games

I know he wasn’t involved in Babylon’s Fall. I’m saying I think that was the final nail in the coffin for his views on the company as a whole.

Even if one of the leads isn’t directly involved in said project, they’re still going to be told about it(so that they know what the other leads are working on) and my assumption is that he thought the game was too business-like for what he thinks Platinum Games should stand for.

 

[nowhat]

Agreed.

You really can't attribute 2B to him though, at least not entirely. Give Yoko Taro some credit as well, the man knows ass.

 

[Gojiira]

As someone who played MGR as of recent; I will assert there is definitely nothing wrong with the mapping of the parry button and its system. It requires some practice to get good at it. I can understand some just aren't willing to take the path and invest the time to get there. Perfect counters are really satisfying. Especially, since they do a x1.5 damage return on a foe. The part with the sub-weapon system is them perhaps trying to pay homage to the arsenal/inventory rotation in the mainline MGS series. Same deal with the "stealth" sections, I guess.

I'm legit not surprised people are praising it these days. The game got somewhat snubbed by critics and has great gameplay depth with good replayability.


I don't, to be frank. I wasn't bothered by how FPS's played on the PS2. CoD, when it first introduced ADS, I perceived as a sweet addition, but it didn't detract my enjoyment from the other regular FPS's at the time. I find it that with most games it comes down to how flexible you are. I've read people/reviewers who flung shit at legitimately good games just because they posed a hurdle in terms of how they were supposed to apply themselves to some new mechanic.

It sounds more like some people expect games to accommodate their skill level and not the other way around (people readjusting their skill level to suit the game). Especially, when a game might come with a steep learning curve. Its no wonder that homogenity is a recurrent issue in modern gaming when people reject new gameplay mechanics that may require a different approach.

I guess we all have different ideas about what makes an appealing game and that's fine I suppose. It would be awfully boring if every third person action game would to take notes from Platinum's homework. The industry should have space for both "B-tier PS2" games and more polished action games.

See that right there is the problem, is not a case if the parry being hard to do, or needing time to get good at it. Thanks for the passive aggression. Its the fact it is not necessary, several buttons go unused so the lack of simply dedicating a button to party is just STUPID…Thus is confounded by the times you go to parry only for a attack to come out instead. This isnt a skill issue or another passive aggressive retort about how it needs to be learnt or whatever other cope that comes out, its simply a unnecessary and poor implementation.
And again the weapon system being a throwback to earlier MGS is not a good enough reason for its inclusion, it wastes the shoulder buttons, and nostalgia or a throwback mechanic is an even poorer excuse for not having on the fly melee weapon switching…This game came out after DMC 1-4, there is ZERO excuse for this.

 

[-Zelda-]

Kamiya, Fav Game?

 

[March Climber]

It feels like he wants to be looked at and treated like a "Kojima", but I just don't see it happening...not to discredit his achievements and past works.

I think part of it has to do with how they carry themselves. Kamiya interacts with social media in a more modern way than Kojima. He posts often, gets into arguments, blocks people, posts memes, etc.

Kojima does things in a more pre-twitter way like how older movie stars post: Cryptic photos of his trips abroad, hints at projects every now and then, listing his favorite movie(s) of the year, and aside from that he barely talks much. He leaves room for mystique, much like older celebrities used to.

 

[Gojiira]

I mean they had to salvage the game from KojiPro who were too trash to do sword physics which is why Raiden doesn't have a sword in Ground Zeroes & had a limited dev period to fix it. With what we were given was good. I'll shit on PG* but let's not about some of their older efforts.

Mmm no, KojiPro had the combat,the sword physics etc as shown off in their first trailer, what they didnt have was a ‘game’. THAT is why they passed it to Platinum.
Its worth noting the KojiPro prototype featured actual stealth but they thought the sword made you OP since it could cut through even more objects than in the Platinum game.
And whats this nonsense if limited dev time? They made Revengeance in about the same time frame as any of their games bar Scalebound, they arent getting a free pass there…
Also no that is not why Raiden didnt have a Sword in GZ at all…A literal cameo skin hardly warrants extra mechanics for a 2 minute mission….

 

[Hypereides]

See that right there is the problem, is not a case if the parry being hard to do, or needing time to get good at it. Thanks for the passive aggression. Its the fact it is not necessary, several buttons go unused so the lack of simply dedicating a button to party is just STUPID…Thus is confounded by the times you go to parry only for a attack to come out instead. This isnt a skill issue or another passive aggressive retort about how it needs to be learnt or whatever other cope that comes out, its simply a unnecessary and poor implementation.
And again the weapon system being a throwback to earlier MGS is not a good enough reason for its inclusion, it wastes the shoulder buttons, and nostalgia or a throwback mechanic is an even poorer excuse for not having on the fly melee weapon switching…This game came out after DMC 1-4, there is ZERO excuse for this.

My intent wasn't to come off as passive aggressive, if that's how you read it, but I strongly disagree with you that its poorly implemented. I really think it was a genuinely cool approach and clever alternative take on it. After a while it becomes really dope to time it right. My only gripe is that the camera can some times screw you over.

I guess the game isn't tailored to your liking.

 

[rhodesianshepard]

Based. These days if you really want to make unique and creative things, to push gameplay genres forward you have to go indie. Even Sony which we love for their singleplayers has gone quite downhill with God of War Ragnarok and Spider-Man 2 clearly being copy-pasted expansions rather than genuine sequels. It's because they were afraid to do new things, and risk things. AAA is all about safety. Even the writing has to be safe, which is why they hire these pandering buffoons to write for their games. Whens the last time Sony did something rather unique?

Death Stranding and TLOU part 2. Sony literally killed off one of the most beloved video game characters in the very beginning of the game. Whether you like the game or not, it was incredibly ballsy and unique way of storytelling. And you can't expect Sony to reinvent the wheel with every direct sequel. Pretty much all direct sequels perfect the formula of the first game. If Sony's franchise IP's continuously put out iterative sequel after sequel then I would agree. But right now, we know Sony Santa Monica, Naughty Dog, and Insomniac are all working on new IP's

 

[Sushi_Combo]

I miss Babylon's fall

 

[Gudji]

 

[Gojiira]

My intent wasn't to come off as passive aggressive, if that's how you read it, but I strongly disagree with you that its poorly implemented. I really think it was a genuinely cool approach and clever alternative take on it. After a while it becomes really dope to time it right. My only gripe is that the camera can some times screw you over.

I guess the game isn't tailored to your liking.

Fair enough, I enjoyed the game for what its worth, MGS is my favourite franchise so all the spinoffs have some special place for me and for sure when it clicks and you get a perfect run with that excellent dynamic soundtrack it is crazy.
Idk, I just lament it lacked in some ways that are just baffling.
Hopefully one day it gets a remaster but who knows.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

This isnt a skill issue

it absolutely is ‍.

Its the fact it is not necessary, several buttons go unused so the lack of simply dedicating a button to party is just STUPID…Thus is confounded by the times you go to parry only for a attack to come out instead.

I mean you actually believe platinum is too dumb to figure out how to map an action to a button, instead of just accepting this is what they want the game to play like; the game will also never throw out an attack instead of a parry if you have the proper timing and input, it simply doesn't happen, so it is indeed a skill issue
I mean they literally explained the reasoning:

“The core concept behind the character in Rising is that Raiden is always moving forward. We don’t want him hiding, dodging attacks, or rolling away. We always want him to meet attacks head on and move into a combo. “Even if he’s running towards enemies he is getting rid of bullets, even getting hit by them, but he is always moving forward. As a character, we didn’t want him to move back on anything. It was because of this direction of the character we went with this game design.”

This is why you press forward and attack, because Raiden is always supposed to run forward, and attack, having a dedicated parry button completely defeats the purpose, this is also why the game doesn't really have combos, because all you need to think about is attacking and stopping the enemies attack for even bigger damage.
You wanting a dedicated button doesn't change any of that, you're free not to like it of course, but it's not "stupid".

 

[Spyxos]

I think Platinum has been a shit studio for the better part of their existence tbh. They were good with the first Bayonetta and Vanquish, and then with some external projects like NieR. But most of the times what they release is budget trash. I respect them for MG Rising since it was apparently being cooked up in mere months. But on a personal level I didn't like the game, it looked awful, level design was horrible and the gameplay wasn't that good too imo (terrible weapon system, no evade button etc).

I don't see why this studio is so revered. Okay, 2 of their first 4 games were good (I didn't like Mad World and Anarchy Reigns), then according to their fans they needed to get a shot at every IP out there. All their games I played, let it be Bayonetta, Vanquish, Transformers, MG Rising... even NieR.. they all use the same slow mo gimmick that got tiresome to me. And with Babylon and TMNT they created outright stinkers. And Bayonetta hasn't really become much improved from the first game onward.

Really, those guys were better off as Clover Studios with Capcoms backing. I know Capcom closed them, but Capcom itself has reinvented itself since and creates excellent games PG can only dream of.

I never understood the hype about Platinum games either. The only game I really like from them is MGS Rising. I usually start their games and after a very short time I'm just bored.

 

[LavitzSlambert]

Based. These days if you really want to make unique and creative things, to push gameplay genres forward you have to go indie. Even Sony which we love for their singleplayers has gone quite downhill with God of War Ragnarok and Spider-Man 2 clearly being copy-pasted expansions rather than genuine sequels. It's because they were afraid to do new things, and risk things. AAA is all about safety. Even the writing has to be safe, which is why they hire these pandering buffoons to write for their games. Whens the last time Sony did something rather unique?

It's pretty unique that their core studios are hell bent on spending all their time and money for the last decade on remasters/remakes/unreleased multiplayer editions of a single franchise with two entries.

 

[skit_data]

 

[mdkirby]

Based. These days if you really want to make unique and creative things, to push gameplay genres forward you have to go indie. Even Sony which we love for their singleplayers has gone quite downhill with God of War Ragnarok and Spider-Man 2 clearly being copy-pasted expansions rather than genuine sequels. It's because they were afraid to do new things, and risk things. AAA is all about safety. Even the writing has to be safe, which is why they hire these pandering buffoons to write for their games. Whens the last time Sony did something rather unique?

Returnal…so pretty recently

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Based. These days if you really want to make unique and creative things, to push gameplay genres forward you have to go indie. Even Sony which we love for their singleplayers has gone quite downhill with God of War Ragnarok and Spider-Man 2 clearly being copy-pasted expansions rather than genuine sequels. It's because they were afraid to do new things, and risk things. AAA is all about safety. Even the writing has to be safe, which is why they hire these pandering buffoons to write for their games. Whens the last time Sony did something rather unique?

Sony has become so safe and pandering. Well said and I agree about SM2 and Ragnarok. Sony this gen has lost ambition and are all about cashing in on their reputation. People still havnt realized how disappointing games like Ragnarok and SM2 are but they could've and should've been next gen, amazing games. This whole cross gen period going on so long has been a scandal yet gamers accept it and defend it. LoU1 Remake? Ps5 only. Game should've been the most amazing graphics ever seen in a game but they did so little while charging $70.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Indeed, MG Rising is one of my favorite games, Vanquish is a great game... Bayonetta is very overrated... Nier Automata is good... But I agree with that slow motion effect... And I hate it with my being wonderful 101, it seems like a very stupid game to me... In plot and in the ost.

Transformes was a big... MEH... And I got a PS4 version... I never pass the second scenario... Because was so boring.

Bayonetta 1 and 2 were really good it's Bayo 3 that was a disappointment imo. Not sure what they were thinking with some of the new mechanics and how OP they were. Also, the graphics are terrible compared to Bayo 2.

 

[tommib]

Returnal…so pretty recently

1 game in 3 years is really not enough.

 

[Big Baller]

 

[linko9]

Love Platinum, but they are very hit or miss. Haven't had a hit since Astral Chain, and it seems like they're always getting involved with failed projects, so I can see why Kamiya got fed up. Unfortunately I'm not holding out hope that anything worthwhile will come out of Platinum again.

 

[mdkirby]

1 game in 3 years is really not enough.

They’ve not really released that many games in that time tho tbh

Not much before was death stranding too. And to be fair their most memorable games of recent years have been both those games. They do need to be doing more for sure, but it’s not zero …not sure what would be on green team that would tick that box either. There’s OD coming. Psychonaughts would count if it wasn’t for it having been crowd funded and multiplatform, they just bought the studio.

Problem is the sheer cost of dev now, both in time and money. It forces AAA to play it safe because the risks are so high. I’m hopeful that the adoption of ai both in terms of aiding code, animation toolset but also entirely generative ai, will substantially speed up and lower costs. If a game previously took 6 years and £180mil to make, can now take 3 years and £40 mil to make, via using ai, then the risk will drop a lot, and we will start seeing AAA experimenting more again.

 

[Spukc]

Let me put this thread on ignore

 

[Robb]

Kamiya has never really been one to follow others from what I can tell, he must be hell to work with when you disagree with his direction.

He makes good stuff though. Looking forward to seeing what he comes up with next.

I think Platinum will be more than fine without him. Their best recent game was probably Astral Chain which he had nothing to do with anyway. They seem to have plenty of great devs over there. Hoping for a sequel on “Switch 2”!

 

[SHA]

He's an artist.

 

[Neff]

Astral Chain was great and Bayonetta 3 is solid (didn't like Automata). These guys can still make good games, but they'll be hurting without Kamiya. He was their star.

Kamiya, Fav Game?

The man has taste.

 

[tomato shrub]

Sounds like PG will double down on GAAS and mobile or something - RIP

 

[deriks]

My gut feeling is that this was the game that was the last straw for him:

This game was ass since first announcement

 

[Lucie Goosey]

Agreed.

Love it

 

[Gojiira]

it absolutely is ‍.

I mean you actually believe platinum is too dumb to figure out how to map an action to a button, instead of just accepting this is what they want the game to play like; the game will also never throw out an attack instead of a parry if you have the proper timing and input, it simply doesn't happen, so it is indeed a skill issue
I mean they literally explained the reasoning:

This is why you press forward and attack, because Raiden is always supposed to run forward, and attack, having a dedicated parry button completely defeats the purpose, this is also why the game doesn't really have combos, because all you need to think about is attacking and stopping the enemies attack for even bigger damage.
You wanting a dedicated button doesn't change any of that, you're free not to like it of course, but it's not "stupid".

Ahhh so always moving forward means next to no combos, no weapon switching on the fly etc etc, yes because that makes TOTAL sense. Fuck off. Its poor design through and through.
A dedicated parry button doesnt slow combat, nor does it prevent Raiden from moving forward either…
Honestly I could care less about anything BUT on the fly weapon switching, its hilarious your defence that everything was deliberately chosen to keep Raiden moving and yet STUPIDLY swapping a weapon takes you completely out of the action…Its a poor design decision through and through. And yes I do think Platinum can be that stupid with some of the utter garbage they have released over the years. Only a handful of their games can be considered good so yes their bipolar output doesnt exactly scream consistency.

 

[DevilMayFlyForAWhiteGuy]

Well pretty much RIP P*.

I’ve been a fan since Madworld. They’ve had hits and misses but Bayonetta, Vanquish, and Metal Gear Rising are some of my favorite games from the 360 era.

Honorable mentions to Nier and the sequel Bayonetta’s of course as well.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Fuck off

I see you got badly triggered by something and have lost the ability for a reasonable discussion, so there's no point in discussing this any further; good day.

 

[BiohazardX95]

Based. These days if you really want to make unique and creative things, to push gameplay genres forward you have to go indie. Even Sony which we love for their singleplayers has gone quite downhill with God of War Ragnarok and Spider-Man 2 clearly being copy-pasted expansions rather than genuine sequels. It's because they were afraid to do new things, and risk things. AAA is all about safety. Even the writing has to be safe, which is why they hire these pandering buffoons to write for their games. Whens the last time Sony did something rather unique?

Returnal which is pretty recent?
Also, ragnarok and SM2 sequels were genuine sequels, don't know what did you expect. But I agree, most of the time the original games are made by indie companies.

 

[Heart_Attack]

There is no future for Platinum Games. Glad he left. Bayo 3 was shit

 

[Labolas]

I'm still a PG fan but this was a big blow to Platinum. Kamiya was the face of Platinum and with him gone, it feels like his presence is going to be missed. People like to shit on PG because it's a cool thing to do now, but you have to remember that a lot of their output was them by hired guns for other developers to make games on a limited budget. Not saying PG isn't blameless for some of their bad games because I think they made some really bad business decisions that ultimately hurt their image. I think that they can still get back in some people's good graces but they have to be smarter about their planning and read the landscape of gaming to get anywhere.

Now onto my theory on why Kamiya left, I think it was a major shift in how they'll be making games. I think Kamiya was like yeah fuck that and fuck off. The worst case scenario is that Platinum needs more money and goes to the altar of ESG for it. The best case would be it was a more amicable split and Kamiya wanted to make his own games that were being pushed on the back burner.

Funny enough a lot of people think that Kamiya's last directed game was Wonderful 101, but it was Sol Cresta. A pretty good shmup that was grossly overpriced and no one played.

And to credit PG, they have been pretty solid in terms of putting out good-great games as of late. Bayo 3 was fun as hell and shook up the formula without losing its identity and Bayo Origins was felt like an Okami inspired game that showcased what PG can deliver on a narrative front.

Kamiya is most likely going to be picked up and he's going to be doing his own thing at that point.