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[Darkmakaimura]

I feel I should mention a disclaimer that I don't know a lot about Lord of the Rings. In fact it's only recently I've been reading a lot about it, especially the lore.

But one thing I've noticed is everything seems focused around the Third Age and Sauron. I always felt that it felt a little bit limiting because almost everything is about Sauron as a villain. Sort of like how Star Wars still sticks with the Empire.

Morgoth/Melkor was more powerful and ruled during the First and I think even Second Age. Sauron was his lieutenant and a Maiar whereas Melkor was a Valar. I think a story focused around him would be really interesting considering how truly powerful this being was supposed to be.

Has there ever been a reason that they haven't focused on what is actually the truest villain of Middle Earth?

 

[jason10mm]

All that stuff is in the Simarillion and the estate hasn't sold it (yet). The Ring of Power second age stuff is mostly the timelines from the LOTR appendices, not even from the relevant parts of the Silmarillion. It would be cool with all the epic elves and whatnot, maybe some day.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

All that stuff is in the Simarillion and the estate hasn't sold it (yet). The Ring of Power second age stuff is mostly the timelines from the LOTR appendices, not even from the relevant parts of the Silmarillion. It would be cool with all the epic elves and whatnot, maybe some day.

Ok, I just figured the Silmarillion was more like a collection of short stories. I was thinking more along the lines of something more epic especially since Melkor was the reason for everything bad that's happened. He's pretty much the primordial evil in that universe.

Of course considering how everything's done today I don't know if I would trust anybody, especially Amazon, to give us a sweeping epic in the First Age. But maybe a video game for example would be pretty cool.

Also, I guess there's the Fourth Age after Saurons defeat. I don't know if you could or even if there was a villain during that age. I know that Return to Moria game takes place during the Fourth Age.

 

[jason10mm]

Given time I expect we'll see 4th age stuff (though basically it is just our history as LOTR is a mythic origin of our world). 1st and 2nd age (done properly) will be epic and no doubt they will come, the Tolkien estate is sitting on BILLIONS worth of stories and they will parcel them out as they need more mansions and yachts

 

[AJUMP23]

I would take dwarves taking back Moria, but first age is all Gods and stuff.

 

[Lasha]

Probably a combination of readers being unfamiliar with the works and the works being too abstract to form an easily digestible story. The lore of middle earth was never presented as a linear story like LotR.

 

[Fbh]

Having a studio greenlight something like this, and then getting writers who could pull it off to work on it would be next to impossible.

Audiences tend to gravitate towards the stuff they know and way more people have only watched the movies or read the 3 books (+ the hobbit) compared to those who have an interest in the extended lore. So any movie/TV show will likely focus on known characters like Sauron, Gandalf, Aragorn, etc.

Also the Silmarillion is basically a lore dump. There isn't an extensive, detailed and linear story like The Lord of the Rings books. Any project would basically be 90% fanfic and Rings of Power is the example of what we are most likely to get from most current TV/movie writers

 

[Cyberpunkd]

read the 3 books

Nerdy nitpick - it’s one book, always was. Splitting them in three was publishers’ choice in various countries and editions.

 

[Yoda]

The Rings of Power had solid source material which SHOULD fit a TV series... and it's a disaster. The first age is much more abstract / legend and wouldn't contain relatable characters and/or fantasy GoT style intrigue. Probably best it stays un-adapted.

 

[Seraphym]

Also the most interesting bit of Rings of Power is the Melkor stuff in the 1st episode, leaves you wanting to know more. Not the Harfoots/Hobbits

 

[diffusionx]

Please no, since Christopher Tolkien died it's obvious that nobody in charge of these properties gives a shit and it will all be ruined.

 

[Bojji]

First scenes of RoP set in first age with 2 trees where the best part of it.

They could have done super fucking epic show or movies set in first age but as many have said, very few audience familiar characters are there.

 

[-Minsc-]

Also the Silmarillion is basically a lore dump. There isn't an extensive, detailed and linear story like The Lord of the Rings books. Any project would basically be 90% fanfic and Rings of Power is the example of what we are most likely to get from most current TV/movie writers

Please no, since Christopher Tolkien died it's obvious that nobody in charge of these properties gives a shit and it will all be ruined.

Sounding like some things are best left to sleep. Perhaps the best thing is to let the any currently popularity of the series die down and let a future Jackson (but not the same as Jackson) come in and make something epic.

but first age is all Gods and stuff.

So, it would be like doing God his creation in Gensis? A bunch of funky universe creation stuff. No real drama until Adam and Eve. Then Cain kills Abel.

My memory tells me Middle Earth came to be in a song. Maybe they could do a musical?

 

[Dexero]

Nerdy nitpick - it’s one book, always was. Splitting them in three was publishers’ choice in various countries and editions.

It’s actually 6 books devided into 3 themes (fellowship/opposition/right) and the first edition was 3 books between 1954 and 1955. While later prints had a one book option as per Tolkien’s wishes, it’s rather unwieldy and non practical in the end.

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

Imagine how badass it would be to see Melkor coming like a mountain clad in ice and crowned with fire and smoke.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

It’s actually 6 books devided into 3 themes (fellowship/opposition/right) and the first edition was 3 books between 1954 and 1955. While later prints had a one book option as per Tolkien’s wishes, it’s rather unwieldy and non practical in the end.

The first edition was split at the request of the publisher because they found 800 pages too unwieldy. It's one book, always was.

 

[Tams]

tl;dr: The First Age (and a considerable part of the Second Age) is mostly myth, so people wouldn't relate enough to enjoy it.

The whole LOTR is supposed to be a mythos for Norse and English peoples as Tolkien didn't think we had as strong a one as other peoples (Norse sagas not being enough for him).

As said, the Fourth Age is actual history.

That said, God of War has done well and is about mythical characters, and Okami was about Amaterasu.

 

[Dexero]

The first edition was split at the request of the publisher because they found 800 pages too unwieldy. It's one book, always was.

Again it’s 6 books in a single volume

They’re even called Book I to Book VI inside the single volume edition.

Children editions often use the 6 books/6 volumes format for printing

 

[The Cockatrice]

Lets not ruin it. The trilogy and Hobbit are all we need. Modern cinema is dead.

 

[AJUMP23]

So, it would be like doing God his creation in Gensis? A bunch of funky universe creation stuff. No real drama until Adam and Eve. Then Cain kills Abel.

There is the betrayal by Melchior.

 

[FunkMiller]

Tolkien never wrote the background to be a story - because that's exactly what it was - background.

The story is The Hobbit and The Lord Of The Rings.

That's why all the other shit doesn't work.

 

[Trunx81]

Just give a sequel trilogy to JJ Abrams. First movie will be about an even more powerful ring and a fatherless, all powerful woman who has to find Aragorn, the King that retired into an unknown region. Second movie is about Orcs chasing a fleeing army. And third movie starts with "Somehow, Sauron has returned". And he´s also the father of the woman. /s

And on a serious note: Prequels are boring because you know already how it will end. And they always make fans angry, like the creation of Mordor in the Amazon show. Focus on new stories, Middleearth is HUGE!

 

[Lasha]

It’s actually 6 books devided into 3 themes (fellowship/opposition/right) and the first edition was 3 books between 1954 and 1955. While later prints had a one book option as per Tolkien’s wishes, it’s rather unwieldy and non practical in the end.

It's a single volume divided in six books like the bible or other mythology. Tolkien intended it to be one fat volume.

 

[PaddyOCanager]

Has there ever been a reason that they haven't focused on what is actually the truest villain of Middle Earth?

Because even with a well-known/beloved IP, high fantasy and hard sci-fi are expensive gambles. If something works, studios copy and paste that template until it's no longer profitable. New Line Cinema was run by Bob Shaye at the time, a studio-head who by modern standards is considered completely insane for greenlighting all three LotR movies at once.

LotR is known in the mainstream for Sauron, the ring, hobbits, etc. and that was a financial success so that is what we get. Studios that can afford the budget for these films are now run by committees, not crazy gamblers.

 

[AJUMP23]

Tolkien never wrote the background to be a story - because that's exactly what it was - background.

The story is The Hobbit and The Lord Of The Rings.

That's why all the other shit doesn't work.

All that stuff is flavor to the story. There is thought there, but it isn't meant to be anything more that added context.

 

[Lasha]

All that stuff is flavor to the story. There is thought there, but it isn't meant to be anything more that added context.

Other way around. The stories work because Tolkien's passion was his mythologies. The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings resonate so well because how well Middle Earth is developed. The Hobbit was a children's story he wrote for fun. Lord of the Rings came about because Tolkien's publisher rejected the Silmarillion and another novella. The publisher wanted more hobbits so he gave them more hobbits while tying the story into the mythology of the Silmarillion. The Silmarillion is the story but its not an easily digestible story like his most famous work.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Tolkien never wrote the background to be a story - because that's exactly what it was - background.

The story is The Hobbit and The Lord Of The Rings.

That's why all the other shit doesn't work.

I think Tolkien would disagree. Ainulindale is probably background, as you said (it's basically Ardan Genesis). But to Tolkien, the core Silmarllion was definitely his prime concern. The Hobbit was just a random project he came up with out of boredom while grading paperwork, which he threw in references to his beloved Lost Tales for fun. Lord of the Rings came around, because his publishers begged him for a Hobbit sequel, so he wrote a more serious work and tied it to his life's work. But the War of the Jewels was always in his mind his most important work.

There's definitely issues in adapting a First Age story, but I think it could be done (particularly as a long form TV series). Here are what I view to be its biggest challenges.

1 - How do you capture the more mythic elements of the story. How do depict a paradise? How do you depict gods? These magical elements are hard to portray visually without it seeming either too mundane, or kind of corny.
2 - The length and passage of time. Depending on the focus of the show, it would either take place over 10s of thousands of years (the creation of arda until the spring of arda). The core of the story takes place over 500 years.
3 - The story deals with several different tribes of elves. How do you visually tell them apart (Tolkien depicts them by hair color mostly). But there are exceptions. Maedhros is a Noldor, which usually has black hair. But he has red hair.
4 - The names. Groupings are more important than individuals a lot of time in the Silmarillion. Family members are grouped by having similar names (Fingolfin, Fingon and Finrod for example). This is going to be SUPER tough to adapt.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Please no, since Christopher Tolkien died it's obvious that nobody in charge of these properties gives a shit and it will all be ruined.

It's too bad he still isn't around. Now they're just going to shut up the franchise.

 

[JCK75]

Because Amazon is sinking millions into first AIDS middle earth.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

I was thinking rather than a movie or television series, one could take the First and Second Ages and make it into a video game or a tabletop role playing game addition. Is MERP still around?

 

[jason10mm]

I was thinking rather than a movie or television series, one could take the First and Second Ages and make it into a video game or a tabletop role playing game addition. Is MERP still around?

For first age stuff it would almost have to be a dynasty warriors type game of OP heroes trashing waves of mooks that then switches to a street fighter type 1v1 technical brawl against enemy champions to even ATTEMPT to recapture the grandeur of that era. Nothing even remotely human about those guys at that time.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

A

For first age stuff it would almost have to be a dynasty warriors type game of OP heroes trashing waves of mooks that then switches to a street fighter type 1v1 technical brawl against enemy champions to even ATTEMPT to recapture the grandeur of that era. Nothing even remotely human about those guys at that time.

This lol. I once saw a thread online where they were debating if Hurin, Turin, Fingolfin and Feanor could defeat all the orcs at Helm's Deep solo (10,000 orcs)

 

[ThatStupidLion]

im more interested in grounded stories than gods etc. so kinda hope they dont pursue telling first age tales

 

[jason10mm]

A

This lol. I once saw a thread online where they were debating if Hurin, Turin, Fingolfin and Feanor could defeat all the orcs at Helm's Deep solo (10,000 orcs)

Thats what sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo bummed me out about Rings of Power. Those Numenoreans should have ALL been peak bodybuilder types. Nothing but chisled abs, bulging quads, and glistening tan skin as far as the eye could see. Sure, let the elves be meek wimps attracted to the wispy, transient, ephemeral humans around them, but Numenoreans....there be gods! It should have been a bunch of orcs fucking up scrawny mainlander humans for 7 episodes, then the Numenoreans, like the Spartans, show up and WRECK SHIT.

Damn, what a fucking waste that show was.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Thats what sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo bummed me out about Rings of Power. Those Numenoreans should have ALL been peak bodybuilder types. Nothing but chisled abs, bulging quads, and glistening tan skin as far as the eye could see. Sure, let the elves be meek wimps attracted to the wispy, transient, ephemeral humans around them, but Numenoreans....there be gods! It should have been a bunch of orcs fucking up scrawny mainlander humans for 7 episodes, then the Numenoreans, like the Spartans, show up and WRECK SHIT.

Damn, what a fucking waste that show was.

Yeah, Numenor is supposed to be like the peak human civilization. Seeing them get clowned on was sad

 

[SJRB]

Because second breakfast is better than first breakfast.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Oh man now I want Japanese for Lord of the Rings....

 

[Dexero]

It's a single volume divided in six books like the bible or other mythology. Tolkien intended it to be one fat volume.

Actually (acshually) Tolkien was building and encyclopedia and mythology encompassing all ages. Anyway as I said Tolkien wanted a single book and he got his wishes but with how printing was at the time 3 volumes with clear cuts and themes made total sense. It’s still the main published version to this day.

Anyway this is a rather moot point because lugging around 1200 pages books in hardcover fashion is impractical and the main reason I cursed Jordan for his inability to get to the point.

 

[Wildebeest]

It should be clear how Tolkien wanted his fantasy world to seem big, expansive, playful, and mysterious. It seems against his wishes to have everything explained, mapped out, and made small and understandable to the point of tedium. I think the whole "ages" exercise anyway is some personal attempt to syncretize the monotheism of Christianity with Norse mythology.