Support NeoGAF

[delirium]

Are you serious? The Japanese military was obliterated by that point, it was completely unnecessary. All that was needed for Japan to surrender was for us to tell the Emperor he wouldn't be killed, which we did anyway, after the bombings.

The bombings were 100% Truman waving his dick.

What? Pre-invasion estimated where over a million in casualty. The Japanese were willing to fight down to the last man/woman. They were arming their civilians with bamboo spears.

 

[Dresden]

Back then regular firebombing was more devastating than the nuke, in terms of overall destruction and casualties. >.> The psychological impact was greater, though. Here was a single bomb that could ruin lands.

A conventional invasion would probably have reduced Japan to something equal to North Korea during the Korean War.

 

[Previous]

Are you serious? The Japanese military was obliterated by that point, it was completely unnecessary. All that was needed for Japan to surrender was for us to tell the Emperor he wouldn't be killed, which we did anyway, after the bombings.

The bombings were 100% Truman waving his dick.

No.

 

[Jeff Albertson]

This is just incomprehensible to me, routing through cow shit to find corn to eat, I was moaning today that my scoop of cola ice cream wasn't as nice as I imagined even though the bubblegum and raspberry ripple were gorgeous.

I seriously can never get my head around stuff like this, I suppose I live in a bubble where you just think things like that can't still happen these days.

Is he really the only person to escape though? I'm sure I read something similar on here about a lady who had excaped and had made drawings of it all?

I just don't understand it all I'd get the book but it kind of seems his life story is there in the exert from it, can people report back to whether the full book is worth a read please

 

[gabbo]

This is just incomprehensible to me, routing through cow shit to find corn to eat, I was moaning today that my scoop of cola ice cream wasn't as nice as I imagined even though the bubblegum and raspberry ripple were gorgeous.

I seriously can never get my head around stuff like this, I suppose I live in a bubble where you just think things like that can't still happen these days.

Is he really the only person to escape though? I'm sure I read something similar on here about a lady who had excaped and had made drawings of it all?

I just don't understand it all I'd get the book but it kind of seems his life story is there in the exert from it, can people report back to whether the full book is worth a read please

He's the only person born in one of these camps to escape.

 

[shanshan310]

Honestly, i find this constant linking to the Vice documentary in every damn North Korean topic tiresome. There are like 25 other documentaries, who are much better at showing the country than Vice.

If i have to chose one of the "Lets go to DPRK on the standard vacation tour" documentaries, i find Holiday In The Axis Of Evil: North Korea by BBC the best. It actually shows the tourist tour from a completely different perspective. Then again, its made by diplomatic and socially skilled British people and not the hipsters at Vice.


Its obvious that Vice are trying their best to make it so much more thrilling and creepy than it has to be. Just look at the BBC documentary, its also a "laid back/entertaining" type of documentary but it does it from a completely different perspective. The british host actually manages to loosen up the korean guides and he even gets the chance to talk "normal" Pyongyang citizens and the documentary shows that even though they are North Koreans, they can still have warm hearts and humor. In the BBC documentary, the guides turns out to actually be likable people and it feels quite sad when they say good bye. Actually, the whole documentary makes one feel for the North Koreans. Same thing with the documentary about the Philharmonic documentary where at the last song, all the north koreans loosens up their iron hearts and actually starts waving and some of them even shedding tears! In the same way, the good bye between the orchestra and the north koreans turns out to be a sad affair! Where you realize, these people, even if they are the elite, actually have hearts too!

Anyway, these DPRK stories always makes me depressed.

Completely agree. I found the Vice documentary awkward to the point where I couldn't continue watching after the first video. Thanks for recommending that other documentary. I also saw an interesting one on TV about two Korean-American actors putting on a play for the North Korean public. If only I could remember the name...

 

[dreamcastmaster]

Book brought, going to be a hard read I think.

 

[StoppedInTracks]

You could swap the names in the book to Isaac Blumstein and Jan Nowak and the timeframe to 1942 and it would read the same.

A Nazi-like concentration lager in 2005.

Fucking awful.

 

[Buttons]

I finished the book yesterday and some of it was really hard to read. It is just so hard to comprehend how terrible people can be treated in this world. The book was a real eye opener but was also very interesting.
While the excerpt does a good job of giving an outline of the story, the book fleshes out the details more and also tells the story of what happened after he managed to escape. Definitely a book worth reading imo.

 

[StoppedInTracks]

He ratted his mother and brother out to die? What a monster.

Not only that but the guy he escaped with died as well. His father is probably already dead now that the story is out and the officials from NK are aware.

Actually I would fear for my life if I was that guy. After all Stalin reached and murdered Leo Tolstoy in Mexico after he escaped the USSR.

 

[shaowebb]

What I wouldn't give to have the power to protect the world from things like this.

 

[shanshan310]

What? Pre-invasion estimated where over a million in casualty. The Japanese were willing to fight down to the last man/woman. They were arming their civilians with bamboo spears.

That's what the US government would say huh. Having read written accounts of regular citizens, I'm more under the impression a lot of them just wanted the US to stop firebombing their houses and for their sons to come back home.

 

[BocoDragon]

What I wouldn't give to have the power to protect the world from things like this.

I hear you on that. In my fantasies I would save the world from such horror

 

[shanshan310]

I hear you on that. In my fantasies I would save the world from such horror

The best fantasies are the ones where all the people who did these horrible things have horrible things happen to them. It makes me even more angry that most of them just get away with it.

 

[BocoDragon]

The best fantasies are the ones where all the people who did these horrible things have horrible things happen to them. It makes me even more angry that most of them just get away with it.

I hear your sentiment... Although I feel like the whole NK situation is some sort of wierd situation that breeds horrible behavior.

They need to be punished... But I think most of them are products of a deranged system.

 

[shanshan310]

I hear your sentiment... Although I feel like the whole NK situation is some sort of wierd situation that breeds horrible behavior.

They need to be punished... But I think most of them are products of a deranged system.

Yeah, like the guy in the OP I guess, they were brought up in a completely different society. If they tried not to do some of those things I'm sure the consequences for them would be awful. The ones at the top though, who create and enforce such a society, words can't even express what I feel for them.

 

[confused]

I'd love to read something like this written by a Guantanamo detainee.

 

[Rentahamster]

Having read written accounts of regular citizens,

"regular citizens" weren't in charge of the Japanese imperialist war machine.

 

[shanshan310]

"regular citizens" weren't in charge of the Japanese imperialist war machine.

His point was that citizens were going to fight with sticks until there was no one left.

 

[Rentahamster]

I'd love to read something like this written by a Guantanamo detainee.

You could read about how they have the opportunity to play sudoku and watch satellite TV.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/06/01/idUSN5V395531

But it only gave the guards a 4-day respite from piss and shit bombs.

US detention and NK detention are worlds apart in difference.

 

[confused]

You could read about how they have the opportunity to play sudoku and watch satellite TV.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/06/01/idUSN5V395531

But it only gave the guards a 4-day respite from piss and shit bombs.

US detention and NK detention are worlds apart in difference.

That's a propoganda piece, I mean from the mouth of a detainee. I doubt many would come out and say they were treated humane.

 

[shanshan310]

That's a propoganda piece, I mean from the mouth of a detainee. I doubt many would come out and say they were treated humane.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0297852213/

Was a good read, lots of biographies of detainees if that's what you're after. Personal stories and such.

Though I'm pretty sure its a little biased the other way

 

[Rentahamster]

His point was that citizens were going to fight with sticks until there was no one left.

Considering the shit they did during the last moments of the Battle of Okinawa, it doesn't sound so far fetched.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa#Casualties

With the impending victory of American troops, civilians often committed mass suicide, urged on by the Japanese soldiers who told locals that victorious American soldiers would go on a rampage of killing and raping. Ryukyu Shimpo, one of the two major Okinawan newspapers, wrote in 2007: "There are many Okinawans who have testified that the Japanese Army directed them to commit suicide. There are also people who have testified that they were handed grenades by Japanese soldiers" to blow themselves up.[35] Some of the civilians, having been induced by Japanese propaganda to believe that U.S. soldiers were barbarians who committed horrible atrocities, killed their families and themselves to avoid capture. Some of them threw themselves and their family members from the cliffs where the Peace Museum now resides.

However, despite being told by the Japanese military that they would suffer rape, torture and murder at the hands of the Americans, Okinawans "were often surprised at the comparatively humane treatment they received from the American enemy."[36][37] According to Islands of Discontent: Okinawan Responses to Japanese and American Power by Mark Selden, the Americans "did not pursue a policy of torture, rape, and murder of civilians as Japanese military officials had warned."[38] Military Intelligence[39] combat translator Teruto Tsubota—a U.S. Marine born in Hawaii—convinced hundreds of civilians not to kill themselves and thus saved their lives.[40]

That's a propoganda piece, I mean from the mouth of a detainee. I doubt many would come out and say they were treated humane.

You don't think Reuters is a reliable source of info?

 

[confused]

Considering the shit they did during the last moments of the Battle of Okinawa, it doesn't sound so far fetched.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa#Casualties





You don't think Reuters is a reliable source of info?

Not when the info comes directly from the US army, no.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0297852213/

Was a good read, lots of biographies of detainees if that's what you're after. Personal stories and such.

Though I'm pretty sure its a little biased the other way

Thanks, I'm going to have to check this one out.

 

[rpmurphy]

His point was that citizens were going to fight with sticks until there was no one left.

I wouldn't doubt that the emperor would have sent every last man alive to fight had the US committed a land invasion.

 

[AgentOtaku]

Wow

Thanks for posting this OP. Definitely buying the book now.

 

[AgentOtaku]

Totally agree with you. The Vice guide says almost nothing about the country.

I still enjoyed it though and have since shown it to friends. I agree though that it is one-sided and would only hope people would seek other stuff out there as well.

 

[cousins]

I wouldn't doubt that the emperor would have sent every last man alive to fight had the US committed a land invasion.

That's why he totally let everyone last man die after the two bombings and never surrendered.

 

[slidewinder]

What I've taken from the (actually sourced) bits-and-pieces I've read (a fair amount, here) about the run-up to the bombing of Hiroshima is that the idea of not using the atomic bomb on Japan was never seriously considered whatsoever. It was 100% assumed, at all at-all relevant levels of decision-making in the military and executive branch of the government, that a functional atomic bomb WOULD be dropped on Japan. Nobody with any kind of influence whatsoever ever even BEGAN to advance an argument that a functional atomic bomb shouldn't be dropped on Japan.

The only at-all SUBSTANTIAL argument (and it was an entirely one-sided one), was whether the initial bomb should be dropped on Tokyo bay, as a demonstration, or elsewhere.

But the fact remains that at no point did anybody with any kind of authority ever argue against dropping nuclear bombs on Japan. Nobody, ever, at all.

Edit: And, of course, most of those "casualty estimates" were only ever put forth in the aftermath.

 

[Steelrain]

That's why he totally let everyone last man die after the two bombings and never surrendered.

After him and the military leaders saw that the enemy had the capability to reduce entire cities to ash without spilling the blood of their own military forces, it's not hard to imagine that the complete futility of resistance hit them head on.

 

[rpmurphy]

That's why he totally let everyone last man die after the two bombings and never surrendered.

I'm posting a hypothetical about a ground invasion, which would have been a very different scenario than the bombings.

EDIT: Maybe we should move WWII discussion back to the WWII thread that was made not long ago.

 

[Sealda]

Considering the shit they did during the last moments of the Battle of Okinawa, it doesn't sound so far fetched.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa#Casualties





You don't think Reuters is a reliable source of info?

Honestly, i know this is completely out there but i have to just say, how do we even know the americans did not rape and murder people after the Battle Of Okinawa?

For instance, 99 % of all germans involved in these types of atrocities never ever spoke about it. Only when they were pointed out that they were involved in it, did some of them spoke up and put the cards on the table.

There are several massacres during WW2 that never ever have come to light or been throughly investigated.

 

[Fjord]

Horrifying, even when these camps are someday closed down imagine the lasting psychological damage. North Korea has a long road to walk.

Thinking about picking up this book for my girlfriend to bring a little perspective to her 'first world problems'.

 

[Steelrain]

Honestly, i know this is completely out there but i have to just say, how do we even know the americans did not rape and murder people after the Battle Of Okinawa?

For instance, 99 % of all germans involved in these types of atrocities never ever spoke about it. Only when they were pointed out that they were involved in it, did some of them spoke up and put the cards on the table.

There are several massacres during WW2 that never ever have come to light or been throughly investigated.

There were rapes committed by U.S servicemembers after Okinawa. They were pretty much swept under the rug in the aftermath.

However, unlike the Japanese Army, rape was not a matter of policy for U.S forces. This is why many Okinawans (especially of the older generations) don't carry the same animosity and resentment towards Americans that they do towards the Japanese. I imagine that if Americans continued right where the Japanese left off, there would be not only considerable evidence but a noticeable difference in relations between the local populace and the U.S government in the postwar era.

 

[AlimNassor]

I will never complain about anything anymore.

why? So because people suffer means you should as well? As someone who has lived on the streets before (lived for a year, miserable experience, and didn't really become a better person), and knew many homeless folk, they wouldn't mind. it's not like this kind of life is unobtainable. So long as you appreciate your life and enjoy it and not act like a lot of the rich and throw away cash.

 

[AlimNassor]

Assuming we decided to cowboy up and liberate those people (which would, at least initially, make us feel really good)... what do you do with an entire nation's worth of people who are malnourished, have no concept of the outside world, and have been more or less brainwashed into relying on a government that we've just dismantled for everything? The impact of refugees on China and South Korea would most likely be devestating for those countries.

Throw in that China would get antsy about US aggression in a border territory, that Seoul is actually in-range of some of NK's weapons leading to high casualties there (and NK apparently has some rudimentary form of nuclear technology), and the absurd size of the North Korean military and you're looking at a literal bloodbath just to get anything done. And then once you're in, you have to deal with a populace told since birth that the American Imperialists are the cause of everything wrong in their lives (power outages? American Imperialists up to no good) that the American Imperialists have just forcefully taken over their country.

We've been waiting for the country to collapse in on itself forever--people thought it'd go shortly after losing Kim Il Sung, and that didn't pan out. We can also hope that one of the successors to power isn't a total evil dick and is willing to make concessions in exchange for foreign trade agreements and aid. As sick as working with the people pulling this shit is, the military option is worse.

The North Korea situation is just awful.

China would not defend North Korea.

Seoul would not be destroyed

North Koreas army would get slaughtered pretty quick.

The issue is dealing with the aftermath, insurgents still hiding, a poor populace. It would be horrible and destroy South Koreas economy as they try to rebuild. Not to mention culturally South and North are different.

 

[delirium]

That's what the US government would say huh. Having read written accounts of regular citizens, I'm more under the impression a lot of them just wanted the US to stop firebombing their houses and for their sons to come back home.

The accounts I've been reading where plans and estimates given by US military planners without knowledge of the bomb and for decision makers. I'm pretty sure they would not color their advice over something this big.

EDIT: Fixed my gaffe. I meant bomb (atomic) and not war.

 

[Wimps]

Don't know what to say..

 

[gabbo]

China would not defend North Korea.

Seoul would not be destroyed

North Koreas army would get slaughtered pretty quick.

The issue is dealing with the aftermath, insurgents still hiding, a poor populace. It would be horrible and destroy South Koreas economy as they try to rebuild. Not to mention culturally South and North are different.

I think your first three comments are naive at best. China may not 'defend' North Korea in the sense of it sending in waves of troops and artillery, but it won't sit idly by as the US plays war around its border. Seoul may not be fully destroyed, but to think it would come out unscathed is giving the North no credit what so over. Something would get through, doesn't have to be nukes to do a lot of damage. I also don't see the North's army being slaughtered quick. Easily sure, but who knows what kind of crazy tactics they've been taught to use in case of American invasion?

I do agree with your point about the aftermath being the problem though.

 

[Wolfe]

Honestly, i find this constant linking to the Vice documentary in every damn North Korean topic tiresome. There are like 25 other documentaries, who are much better at showing the country than Vice.

If i have to chose one of the "Lets go to DPRK on the standard vacation tour" documentaries, i find Holiday In The Axis Of Evil: North Korea by BBC the best. It actually shows the tourist tour from a completely different perspective. Then again, its made by diplomatic and socially skilled British people and not the hipsters at Vice.


Its obvious that Vice are trying their best to make it so much more thrilling and creepy than it has to be. Just look at the BBC documentary, its also a "laid back/entertaining" type of documentary but it does it from a completely different perspective. The british host actually manages to loosen up the korean guides and he even gets the chance to talk "normal" Pyongyang citizens and the documentary shows that even though they are North Koreans, they can still have warm hearts and humor. In the BBC documentary, the guides turns out to actually be likable people and it feels quite sad when they say good bye. Actually, the whole documentary makes one feel for the North Koreans. Same thing with the documentary about the Philharmonic documentary where at the last song, all the north koreans loosens up their iron hearts and actually starts waving and some of them even shedding tears! In the same way, the good bye between the orchestra and the north koreans turns out to be a sad affair! Where you realize, these people, even if they are the elite, actually have hearts too!

Anyway, these DPRK stories always makes me depressed.

While I agree with you about there being better documentaries on the subject you have to keep in mind the Vice guys tell you straight up they were going there as journalists but then got "demoted" to tourists before the trip. That fact alone had a huge impact on what they could film and how they could do it.

But hey whatever, they're just stupid hipsters I guess right?

 

[TruskyMX]

More power to him.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

My book arrived at work and I'm starting it tomorrow.

 

[iceDragon7]

Ordered hardcover on Barnes & Noble. How did some of you receive your copy already? I wonder what his favorite food is now, since he used to hunt rats, probably doesn't take anything for granted.

 

[xbhaskarx]

What's the big deal I escaped from prison and hunted rats

Spoiler

in Oblivion

 

[Castor Krieg]

With the impending victory of American troops, civilians often committed mass suicide, urged on by the Japanese soldiers who told locals that victorious American soldiers would go on a rampage of killing and raping.

The irony! Oh history, the irony in this statement!

Anyway, any reviews from GAFers here? The book seems to be doing fine on Amazon.

 

[iceDragon7]

So I finally got around to finishing this book. Many realizations personally from each chapter as it progressed. Really sad to think someone would have to go through the things he did for the error of another generation. Either way I would recommend this book to all who stumble upon this thread, I had never ready any other book on Best Korea but also wasn't clueless of the things going on there.

I do wish some questions would have been asked/answered regarding Shin and his work outside North Korea. One being when Shin was settling in South Korea and in California, he couldn't hold a job for long before quitting. My question is, although he was forced to hard labor in the camps, he still did the work to obey the 10 rules within the camp. Did he not learn to be content when he got a job in S.korea or U.S.? Was the labor more difficult than what he had to do within the camps minus the beatings?

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

There was a segment in the book that covered the problems that NK defectors face with holding jobs down in SK.

Finished it two weeks ago and I found it to be really inspirational.

Please check it out.

 

[SouthernDragon]

I think it's hard transitioning from such a toxic atmosphere to something normal. You can't relate to your coworkers well and it is hard to function.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

I read the first 19 chapters of this book today and all I can say is that it is mind-blowing. No matter how much I hear about North Korea it still manages to blow my mind just how insane it is that a place like that exists in the present day.

I highly recommend the book.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

My mind wasn't ready for this today. That is fucked up.