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[clemenx]

I'm pretty fired up after seeing all the praise to Fidel so I'm gonna shed some light on the situation of my country. While many people not see the connection. As Fidel was Chavez's supper buddy and helped him shape the policies that have destroyed Venezuela it hits pretty close and we have strong Fidel / Castros opinions

I'd recommend this NYT article from yesterday. Shows a good general picture while also focusing on something entirely new for this country.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/25/w...n-boats-to-escape-economic-collapse.html?_r=0

Some excerpts on the general economic situation.

Venezuela was once one of Latin America’s richest countries, flush with oil wealth that attracted immigrants from places as varied as Europe and the Middle East.

But after President Hugo Chávez vowed to break the country’s economic elite and redistribute wealth to the poor, the rich and middle class fled to more welcoming countries in droves, creating what demographers describe as Venezuela’s first diaspora.

Now a second diaspora is underway — much less wealthy and not nearly as welcome.

Well over 150,000 Venezuelans have fled the country in the last year alone, the highest in more than a decade, according to scholars studying the exodus.


And as Mr. Chávez’s Socialist-inspired revolution collapses into economic ruin, as food and medicine slip further out of reach, the new migrants include the same impoverished people that Venezuela’s policies were supposed to help.

Inflation will hit nearly 500 percent this year and a mind-boggling 1,600 percent next year, the International Monetary Fund estimates, shriveling salaries and creating a new class of poor Venezuelans who have abandoned professional careers for precarious lives abroad.

“Venezuelans like myself are coming to Brazil for a simple reason: It’s easier to survive here,” said Reinier Salazar, 30, an industrial engineer who moved to Brazil last year. Now he cooks at a fast-food restaurant for about $400 a month — much more than he made back home in Venezuela, he said.

The exodus is unfolding so quickly that since 2015 about 30,000 Venezuelans have moved to the border region that includes the Brazilian state of Roraima, officials say. Now the Brazilian Army is bolstering patrols along highways and rivers, bracing for even more arrivals.

The small Caribbean islands neighboring Venezuela are far less hospitable, saying they simply cannot absorb the onslaught. The closest to Venezuela’s coast, Aruba and Curaçao, have effectively sealed their borders to poor Venezuelans since last year by making them show $1,000 in cash before entering — the equivalent of more than five years of earnings in a minimum-wage job.

Both countries have increased patrols and deportations, and Aruba has even set aside a stadium to hold as many as 500 Venezuelan migrants after they are caught, according to the authorities.

It’s a dramatic reversal of fortune for Venezuelans, who once went to Curaçao to spend money as tourists, not to plead for work.

“They all say, ‘You are from Venezuela. You are from a rich country that has everything,’ ” Ms. Bello said of her encounters on the island. “And I say, ‘No longer.’ ”

 

[Totakeke]

Oil economy sinks another country.

 

[clemenx]

Oil economy sinks another country.

Nothing to do with the situation at hand.

Obviusly lower prices hurt the government, as in they have less to steal from but it's not the cause of the destruction of the country.

 

[Totakeke]

Nothing to do with the situation at hand.

Obviusly lower prices hurt the government, as in they have less to steal from but it's not the cause of the destruction of the country.

But the economic policies were driven by oil wealth. I guess it depends on how big or small of a picture you want to look at?

 

[Leopold]

Socialism creates another paradise on Earth!

 

[R10Neymarfan]

Socialism creates another paradise on Earth!

Not true socialism though

 

[GameAddict411]

Socialism creates another paradise on Earth!

It's not just socialism in this case though. The government is extremely corrupt.

 

[Shadynasty]

But the economic policies were driven by oil wealth. I guess it depends on how big or small of a picture you want to look at?

Unbridled socialist economic policies. Venezuela went from the wealthiest South American countries to an absolute shit hole. It's sad.

 

[Night Angel]

It's not just socialism in this case though. The government is extremely corrupt.

Funny how those two often go hand in hand.

 

[kirblar]

But the economic policies were driven by oil wealth. I guess it depends on how big or small of a picture you want to look at?

Plenty of other countries got hit hard and didn't manage to do .....this.

 

[NeOak]

Socialism creates another paradise on Earth!

It was more of a disguised communism, but without the jobs.

 

[cyberheater]

Socialism creates another paradise on Earth!

Which is why capitalism works because that keeps the greedy and corrupt in charge rather then fleeing to another country.

 

[Totakeke]

Plenty of other countries got hit hard and didn't manage to do .....this.

Okay, my original statement was an oversimplification. I concede that point.

 

[kirblar]

Which is why capitalism works because that keeps the greedy and corrupt in charge rather then fleeing to another country.

It works because people are self-interested and it manages to harness that w/ massive increases in collective well-being as a hugely beneficial side effect.

 

[fabricated backlash]

It's not just socialism in this case though. The government is extremely corrupt.

So socialism...

 

[kittenbreath]

Oil economy sinks another country.

Socialism creates another paradise on Earth!

It's not just socialism in this case though. The government is extremely corrupt.

None of these suggestions are mutually exclusive. A toxic mixture of authoritarianism, fanatical populism, and over dependence on a single resource have each contributed their share to the problems at hand.

 

[Condom]

Are the means of production seized by the proletariat? No? Stop calling it socialism then.
It's social democracy with an oil based economy, corruption and political/economical infighting.

 

[Opto]

Didn't Venezuela completely neglect building any industry other than oil production? They imported everything and when the oil money dried up, there went the only domestic producer.

Side note: giving some side-eye to the people praising an economic collapse because of socialism when we're going to be begging for it in the next couple decades

 

[Even]

Are the means of production seized by the proletariat? No? Stop calling it socialism then.
It's social democracy with an oil based economy, corruption and political/economical infighting.

Democracy? In Venezuela? HA!

It's a typical socialist dictatorship, like it or not.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Socialist boogeyman posts strike again.

 

[jakonovski]

Capitalism totally trumps socialism.

 

[Raxus]

Hope Machado gets out of there soon.

 

[Stasis]

Hope Machado gets out of there soon.

We're working on it! I'm in Quebec, near Montreal. We chat a fair amount about what he needs to know and do when he gets here. Still a long way to go, though, unfortunately. Over a year.

 

[Ōkami]

I live in Ecuador and I've been seeing more and more Venezuelan immigrants every day, goverment data says that their number is actually decreasing but they're becoming more common, from what I've seen at least.

Almost all of them are people selling stuff on the bus, like candy, a couple of weeks ago a guy said that he is an engineer and was working in Venezuela on the agrucultural field saying that before Maduro he had an above average salary and until before he left he was just making enough money to just buy food so he had to leave.

He said he makes more money selling candy by $0.25 here than with his daily job in Venezuela. Many more tell similar stories, educated people. They can't get a job here as immigrants need a working visa so they do what they can.

 

[Mugy]

I always hated how people believe that, because we can use internet in Venezuela and post on the internet, everything its fine in this country.

Sometimes the only distraction we venezuelan people had is this, a computer with internet. This situation has been getting more and more wrong and so fast...One time i posted that you have no idea who is to live in a country were the most minimum and insignificant problem becomes something unusually big and sometimes impossible or really hard to resolve.

You people have no idea how is to not be able to eat for a day, or to drink water. And guess what, other people doesn't help because they are dealing with their own problems.

Yes, you can think i'm exaggerating. But try to go outside and do your daily things, and then come back to your home expecting to eat something and don't have anything, and find your mother crying because she use her money to buy something for the dogs. After you have live something like that, you can talk about people of this country are exaggerating or not.

 

[mid83]

It's not just socialism in this case though. The government is extremely corrupt.

How is it that some people haven't made the connection that both of these go hand and hand? But hey, let's continue to push for this garbage and ignore the history of millions upon millions of lives ruined and lost by these uptopias.

 

[itxaka]

I always hated how people believe that, because we can use internet in Venezuela and post on the internet, everything its fine in this country.

Sometimes the only distraction we venezuelan people had is this, a computer with internet. This situation has been getting more and more wrong and so fast...One time i posted that you have no idea who is to live in a country were the most minimum and insignificant problem becomes something unusually big and sometimes impossible or really hard to resolve.

You people have no idea how is to not be able to eat for a day, or to drink water. And guess what, other people doesn't help because they are dealing with their own problems.

Yes, you can think i'm exaggerating. But try to go outside and do your daily things, and then come back to your home expecting to eat something and don't have anything, and find your mother crying because she use her money to buy something for the dogs. After you have live something like that, you can talk about people of this country are exaggerating or not.

Its So fucking backwards that people can have internet but need to queue for hours to get toilet paper.

Fuck this dictatorship hidden behind socialism/communism charade. Stay strong Venezuelans, it will get better.

 

[mid83]

Side note: giving some side-eye to the people praising an economic collapse because of socialism when we're going to be begging for it in the next couple decades

People aren't praising anything, but rather pointing out yet another of the long list of examples of the failure of socialism/communism.

 

[Mindlog]

Goes right back to the other thread and how easy it is for some to make an issue about their own political philosophies instead of the realities as told by the people living under those conditions.

 

[Xe4]

Are the means of production seized by the proletariat? No? Stop calling it socialism then.
It's social democracy with an oil based economy, corruption and political/economical infighting.

Nothing is ever socialism, condom. Every time a socialist experiment fails, people cry out it wasn't "true" socialism, and keep hoping for a good socialist country to magically appear, even though that's never happened. Strange there's never been a sucessfull socialist country, wonder why...

 

[PeskyToaster]

Don't worry, It's another failed communist state that isn't real communism. We'll get it right eventually guys, just feed more wealth and lives in the grinder.

 

[NSESN]

I have seen very few news about this in Brazil, but I know some cities in Roraima are having huge problems supporting the Venezuelans that fled.

 

[Opto]

People aren't praising anything, but rather pointing out yet another of the long list of examples of the failure of socialism/communism.

Seriously? You guys are tickled with joy that you're getting confirmation while people have to flee a collapsing economy. Meanwhile, an orange is using the USA to fill his pockets.

 

[Syraxith]

Nothing is ever socialism, condom. Every time a socialist experiment fails, people cry out it wasn't "true" socialism, and keep hoping for a good socialist country to magically appear, even though that's never happened. Strange there's never been a sucessfull socialist country, wonder why...

It's because meanie-face western capitalist imperialists keep subverting the people's progress towards a socialist utopia... because reasons.

 

[Condom]

Nothing is ever socialism, condom. Every time a socialist experiment fails, people cry out it wasn't "true" socialism, and keep hoping for a good socialist country to magically appear, even though that's never happened. Strange there's never been a sucessfull socialist country, wonder why...

Learn your ideologies brah, it's embarrassing

 

[Mugy]

I don't care if this country is socialism, democracy, dictatorship, or anything else. We have reach a point were the only thing i want is to be ablea to eat properly, not getting scare of everytime some problems happens, and not to start crying when somebody i know its inevitable going to die because medicine its either expensive or impossible to get.

You just don't get it people.

 

[mid83]

Seriously? You guys are tickled with joy that you're getting confirmation while people have to flee a collapsing economy. Meanwhile, an orange is using the USA to fill his pockets.

I fail to see how pointing out that socialism/communism has led to this is somehow "people jumping for joy". That's a load of BS and you know it.

 

[Xe4]

Learn your ideologies brah, it's embarrassing

Please do educate me, then (seriously asking, not sarcasm). Especially about socialist countries which have been a net benefit to their citizens.

 

[dracula_x]

It was more of a disguised communism, but without the jobs.

No, it's a socialism. Communism is nothing like that.

Also communism is utopia. It has never existed.

 

[KonradLaw]

It's not just socialism in this case though. The government is extremely corrupt.

People who never lived in socialistic/communistic countries don't understand that corruption is the only thing that makes those system fuctional at all. Not just for elite, but also for everyday people.

 

[Shadynasty]

How is it that some people haven't made the connection that both of these go hand and hand? But hey, let's continue to push for this garbage and ignore the history of millions upon millions of lives ruined and lost by these uptopias.

But it's not true socialism. /s

Socialist boogeyman posts strike again.

Not true socialism though

ITT: McCarthyism.

Please explain to me how showing the failure of actual socialist policies is "McCarthyism" or socialist boogeyman posts.

Venezuela had a socialist dictator who had a successor rather than a free election. He nationalized industry, drove up inflation, discouraged private investment, and over-depended on oil. Now let's add in the fact that democratic institutions have deteriorated, and threats to freedom of expression have increased. Widespread shortages of basic consumer goods, medicine, and medical supplies.

 

[CrunchyB]

Nothing is ever socialism, condom. Every time a socialist experiment fails, people cry out it wasn't "true" socialism, and keep hoping for a good socialist country to magically appear, even though that's never happened. Strange there's never been a sucessfull socialist country, wonder why...

"Socialism" fails because humans like leaders and the power of this upper class inevitably corrupts the system. Sooner rather than later. If there is no powerful middle class that can push back things will spiral out of control.

It may be that we humans will never be able to properly implement it.

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

As someone that's (at a basic level, I guess) a Keynesian, I don't know who to back in this argument.

 

[Condom]

I fail to see how pointing out that socialism/communism has led to this is somehow "people jumping for joy". That's a load of BS and you know it.

1. It's not socialism or communism, it's a social democracy at most. According to dictionary definitions even. People sound like republicans wanting the government to keep their hands off their medicare. Bad governance is to blame.

2. Like Mugy said that isn't even the point, the thing is that the government's policies are failing. Now the Maduro apologists may tell you it's all because of corporate sabotage and others may tell you it's because of corruption or the leftist policies in general. Fact is that people are hungry and that there has to be worked towards a solution before the situation gets even worse.

Please do educate me, then (seriously asking, not sarcasm). Especially about socialist countries which have been a net benefit to their citizens.

Very easy: Socialism is when the workers own the means of production, as for example the factories (socialism still has classes). It also is a path towards communism (which is beyond an economic transition also a mental and social one and is without classes). Venezuela is still as much a capitalist country as Sweden is.

Net positive socialist countries: The Soviet Union.

20th century Marxism-Leninism had a lot more ambitions and promises than just being a 'net-positive' though and many of those that branch of Communism simply failed to achieve and adhere to.

 

[Xe4]

"Socialism" fails because humans like leaders and the power of this upper class inevitably corrupts the system. Sooner rather than later. If there is no powerful middle class that can push back things will spiral out of control.

It may be that we humans will never be able to properly implement it.

Right. Socialism is a system that is good in theory, but I have never seen, and doubt I will ever see implemented correctly. People talk about the proletariat taking over, forgetting that if by some miracle that ever does happen, classes naturally form afterwards. There is no scenario I can think of where a middle class peacefully holds power with equally distributed wealth for any sort of period of time. Humans just aren't like that.

 

[Mr.Mike]

It's always struck me as weird that because a small handful have far too much wealth and power we would even further concentrate wealth and power into a single entity that would inevitably become corrupt without any sufficiently strong institutions or power brokers to keep it in check. And while we're at it we might as well throw away a mostly efficient, if also rather flawed, system for allocating resources. The market isn't perfect but it's still far better than giant corrupt bureaucracies that couldn't do anywhere near as good a job even if they really wanted too for technical reasons.

Of course there isn't supposed to be a state in the Communist ideal, but in a list of things that will never happen on a large scale, that'd be pretty high up.

 

[jakonovski]

If only there was a way to leverage oil wealth to the benefit of all citizens in a social democratic manner. But alas, it has been impossible, nor can anyone figure out a way to succeed.

 

[entremet]

Don't worry, It's another failed communist state that isn't real communism. We'll get it right eventually guys, just feed more wealth and lives in the grinder.

Lol. Love this.

 

[CoolOff]

Not true socialism though

It never is.

 

[mid83]

1. It's not socialism or communism, it's a social democracy at most. According to dictionary definitions even. People sound like republicans wanting the government to keep their hands off their medicare. Bad governance is to blame.

2. Like Mugy said that isn't even the point, the thing is that the government's policies are failing. Now the Maduro apologists may tell you it's all because of corporate sabotage and others may tell you it's because of corruption or the leftist policies in general. Fact is that people are hungry and that there has to be worked towards a solution before the situation gets even worse.

People can't honestly believe that Venezuela is anything resembling a democracy when the head of state was essentially named a successor by the previous "elected" leader. In addition, the current "elected" leader is doing everything possible to dismantle every mechanism of democracy to ensure he won't provide the people an opportunity to vote him out of office. But sure, it's a social democracy

I think it's valid to discuss why Venezuela has failed, as making changes to counter what caused so much destruction in the first place is key to fixing this beautiful country. Then again, far left anti-capitalists don't want to hear this stuff as it ruins the illusion that socialism/communism works, it just hasn't beeen implemented correctly yet.