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[Cmdr. Solrak]

Since I got promoted, I have been looking for an SUV with the best MPG on it. One that has caught my eye is the new 06' Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Do hybrid cars/SUVs give more problems then non-hybrid ones?

 

[Groder Mullet]

I don't believe they have any more reliability issues than there straight gasoline cousins. Is it worth the extra money is really dependent on how much you drive. If you drive a lot, then it probably is worth the extra cash over the long term.

 

[Tarazet]

I don't believe they have any more reliability issues than there straight gasoline cousins.

Yes, they do. I've seen way too many Priuses on the side of the road for comfort. I've also heard of Honda CVT transmissions going out with as little as 30K miles on the clock, and not just from one person. The best bet would be a Civic Hybrid with a stick-shift, but even that isn't guaranteed to be a totally dependable car.

 

[fart]

reliability problems? [x]

actually, i have first hand experience here. there's a lot of user error, and there are just massive bugs in the first or second gen parts. pretty much none of the current hybrids are not prone to having to go back to the dealership every 4-5 months at a bare minimum for this or that.

higher maintenance costs? [x]
higher purchase price? [x]
higher repair costs? [x]

if you work it out, it's just not possible to make the money back right now on the higher mileage because a) high mileage/year is usually due to a long highway commute, where the hybrid isn't much more than a heavy car with a very small gas engine b) see above

only buy a hybrid if you are particularly green (although keep in mind the most gas efficient conventional cars for sale right now - the civic HX, etc practically clean the air they combust anyways) or want to help build critical mass for the alternative power movement. i'm not saying don't buy one, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're going to save any money in the next ten years due to buying one. if you keep this in mind you could be very very happy with one of the current hybrids (i recommend the civic hybrid because it gets the best mileage and has the least unique chassis).

 

[LakeEarth]

I've heard they don't really give that huge of a gas savings at all, but I don't know if that's true or not.

Usually the first wave of a new type of car is riddled with problems. I remember my geography teacher bitching about how he got the first gen minivan and how much sucked.

 

[lexy]

reliability problems? [x]

actually, i have first hand experience here. there's a lot of user error, and there are just massive bugs in the first or second gen parts. pretty much none of the current hybrids are not prone to having to go back to the dealership every 4-5 months at a bare minimum for this or that.

higher maintenance costs? [x]
higher purchase price? [x]
higher repair costs? [x]

if you work it out, it's just not possible to make the money back right now on the higher mileage because a) high mileage is usually due to a long highway commute, where the hybrid isn't much more than a heavy car with a very small gas engine b) see above

only buy a hybrid if you are particularly green (although keep in mind the most gas efficient conventional cars for sale right now - the civic HX, etc practically clean the air they combust anyways) or want to help build critical mass for the alternative power movement. i'm not saying don't buy one, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're going to save any money in the next ten years due to buying one. if you keep this in mind you could be very very happy with one of the current hybrids (i recommend the civic hybrid because it gets the best mileage and has the least unique chassis).

On point. I was going to type out something similar but you said it better than I ever could.

 

[nathkenn]

there's also that whole better for the environment thing

 

[fart]

there's also that whole better for the environment thing

are they really? the prius has a 1.3l ULEV gas engine. if it spends most of its life doing highway driving, then that engine is pretty much always running. a civic HX has iirc a 1.5l ULEV gas engine that is really always running. the difference in particulates between these two engines is probably negligible since i think they both actually clean the air they combust (i'm not kidding about this). then, the difference is probably only in manufacturing waste and fuel usage. the hybrid, being a much more complex machine, and a superset of the civic, is almost certainly causing more resource consumption in manufacturing. fuel usage wise, they actually have almost the same highway EPA ratings.

 

[Flynn]

Even if they don't save you much money, I consider the purchase of a hybrid an important message to car manufacturers.

When and if I ever buy a new car, it will be a hybrid.

 

[Shawn]

i have the civic hx. it gets 37/44.

 

[Tarazet]

i have the civic hx. it gets 37/44.

I wish I was getting 40+ miles to the gallon. My Element has never done better than 25. What I'd honestly like is something like the Honda Life (fire up Gran Turismo 2 again to see what that is). Turns heads, dirt cheap to operate, still carries a good bit of stuff, and I'll never get a speeding ticket.

 

[Phoenix]

reliability problems? [x]

actually, i have first hand experience here. there's a lot of user error, and there are just massive bugs in the first or second gen parts. pretty much none of the current hybrids are not prone to having to go back to the dealership every 4-5 months at a bare minimum for this or that.

higher maintenance costs? [x]
higher purchase price? [x]
higher repair costs? [x]

if you work it out, it's just not possible to make the money back right now on the higher mileage because a) high mileage/year is usually due to a long highway commute, where the hybrid isn't much more than a heavy car with a very small gas engine b) see above

only buy a hybrid if you are particularly green (although keep in mind the most gas efficient conventional cars for sale right now - the civic HX, etc practically clean the air they combust anyways) or want to help build critical mass for the alternative power movement. i'm not saying don't buy one, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're going to save any money in the next ten years due to buying one. if you keep this in mind you could be very very happy with one of the current hybrids (i recommend the civic hybrid because it gets the best mileage and has the least unique chassis).

Pretty much 100% right on. The ONLY category where I consider them worthy is in the SUV sector.

 

[teh_pwn]

Yeah, I don't think they're worth it.

With the extra money saved on buying a normal car and not having to pay for more expensive repairs, you could invest that money and it would be worth several times the difference on what you could have saved on gas in 10 years.


Example:

Civic Sedan Value Package: $14,660 29/38 MPG
Civic Hybrid: $19,990 48/47

$5000 initial difference. is an average of 32-34 MPG that much worse than 47 MPG?

 

[SteveMeister]

In Virginia, people buy them so they can use the HOV lanes with only one person in the car. They're going to be THRILLED when that rule expires next year and isn't renewed (because the HOV lanes are now overcrowded because of all the hybrids). I expect a glut of used hybrids in Virginia in around 18 months or so.

 

[mrmyth]

Yes, they do. I've seen way too many Priuses on the side of the road for comfort. I've also heard of Honda CVT transmissions going out with as little as 30K miles on the clock, and not just from one person. The best bet would be a Civic Hybrid with a stick-shift, but even that isn't guaranteed to be a totally dependable car.

Honda built a weak belt-driven CVT and then mated it to a high-torque engine. Recipe for disaster. I'm driving Ford's chain-driven CVT in a Freestyle and the thing isn't rated to need any service until 60k miles.



As far as hybrids go, though, its a wash unless you drive 100 miles a day in city traffic. The premium you pay up front is too much. But if gas goes over $3/gal...........

 

[Poody]

Its ironic that i'm a civil engineer with an environmental option yet i'm runnin catless on my Saabaru.

 

[darscot]

The hybrids are a tough call there really not that much better for the environment. If you doing purely city driving then there an option but forget about the highway. I think only one of the hybrids actually has less emisions then a diesel smart over a one year period. Then when you consider the not so friendly batteries and additional cost they dont really add up.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

I think hybrids need a couple more years to become a better consumer option.

Those Prius you see on the side of the road are because the owners have pulled over to cry about being mocked over its aesthetic stylings.

 

[Manics]

If it wasn't for the big oil companies keeping inventions down by killing scientists, we'd all have solar powered cars right now.

 

[Tarazet]

Honda built a weak belt-driven CVT and then mated it to a high-torque engine. Recipe for disaster. I'm driving Ford's chain-driven CVT in a Freestyle and the thing isn't rated to need any service until 60k miles.

They made the right choice with the Accord Hybrid and gave it a conventional five-speed automatic. That's a much better choice. But the car is $30,000.. it may be loaded to the gills but that's still very steep for a car with the Accord moniker on it.

 

[teh_pwn]

Another thing to consider is that most hybrids have weak engines. There are exceptions, like the Accord Hybrid, but that's so expensive that it's beyond the point of getting a hybrid to save money.

 

[miyuru]

For city driving you'll save a lot of gas. Regardless, I've heard of a lot of stupid bugs that need to be ironed out, things like using your AC or rear defrost, random stuff like that.

 

[SKluck]

I remember reading in the newspaper a while back that to make up the difference for the increase in cost for the Hybrid, it would take 11 years :lol How stupid. This was one of the Hondas.

 

[mrmyth]

They made the right choice with the Accord Hybrid and gave it a conventional five-speed automatic. That's a much better choice. But the car is $30,000.. it may be loaded to the gills but that's still very steep for a car with the Accord moniker on it.

They made the only choice they could. There isn't a CVT built that can take more than ~ 250 horses/250 torque, and that's pushing it. The Freestyle/500's CVT is considered heavy duty and its only working with 207/203.

 

[teh_pwn]

it would take 11 years How stupid. This was one of the Hondas.

Yeah, and think that money could sit in mutual funds for 11 years and triple in value. A low risk 12% interest would make 5000 into 15000 in 10 years.

 

[beaglebot]

are they really? the prius has a 1.3l ULEV gas engine. if it spends most of its life doing highway driving, then that engine is pretty much always running. a civic HX has iirc a 1.5l ULEV gas engine that is really always running. the difference in particulates between these two engines is probably negligible since i think they both actually clean the air they combust (i'm not kidding about this). then, the difference is probably only in manufacturing waste and fuel usage. the hybrid, being a much more complex machine, and a superset of the civic, is almost certainly causing more resource consumption in manufacturing. fuel usage wise, they actually have almost the same highway EPA ratings.

Why are you not taking into account that the Prius does 60/51mpg while the HX only does 44/36mpg? Improved miles per gallon translates into more efficient resource consumption.

Also, I'd be interested to see the basis for claims about reliability problems. The following two data points suggest the exact opposite:

http://www.autoweb.com/content/research/vir/index.cfm/vehicle_number_int/1016237/Action/Reliability

http://www.roadandtravel.com/consumerreports/reliabilitytrends.htm

You might expect hybrid cars to have serious reliability problems since they use a new and relatively unproven technology involving a gasoline engine, an electric motor, and a high-tech battery pack. But the hybrids seem to be holding up well so far. The first-generation Toyota Prius was among the most reliable in our survey, and the 2003 Civic Hybrid had outstanding reliability; we don't have enough data on the Honda Insight hybrid to predict reliability.

 

[fart]

Why are you not taking into account that the Prius does 60/51mpg while the HX only does 44/36mpg? Improved miles per gallon translates into more efficient resource consumption.

is this the 06 prius? my mom has an '05 and it gets i ~45mpg highway. the more highway driving you do the lower it goes. it makes sense since it's absolutely just a heavy small-engined gas car when you're cruising on the highway. the electric motor doesn't do much for you.

Also, I'd be interested to see the basis for claims about reliability problems. The following two data points suggest the exact opposite:

http://www.autoweb.com/content/research/vir/index.cfm/vehicle_number_int/1016237/Action/Reliability

http://www.roadandtravel.com/consumerreports/reliabilitytrends.htm

of the two priuses i've had experiences with, both regularly report back to the dealer every 4-6 months. one is 3 years old and has averaged about one trip every six months, and this is considering the owner is a computer engineer and likes to work on the sensitive bits himself whenever he can. the other one is a year old and some odd old and has spent about 2-3 weeks at the dealer since it was purchased. and this is just stuff that spontaneously breaks. when you purposely break it (people keep bumping into it in parking lots - maybe it just really shocks them or something) it's a huge pain to fix - there are wires EVERYWHERE in the car, under every body panel, every trim piece, etc. and everything on the car is hooked into a computer system somewhere, so if a connection comes loose, whoops, there go your brakes!

there are also some well-known defects - steering racks, the computer panels in the new ones, etc.

oh, and there are just weird things. the prius's transmission is set up so that it will only reverse with the electric motor, and if you overload the electric motor it just kinds of sits there, so if you pull forward down a grade without enough space to 3 point at the bottom (you know, like a driveway) you can actually get stuck at the bottom.

 

[SteveMeister]

oh, and there are just weird things. the prius's transmission is set up so that it will only reverse with the electric motor, and if you overload the electric motor it just kinds of sits there, so if you pull forward down a grade without enough space to 3 point at the bottom (you know, like a driveway) you can actually get stuck at the bottom.

Holy crap, you've got to be kidding me. What were they THINKING?!