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[adamsapple]

I think on the ground floor you'll find more support for unions than not even in america. Topher 's just a boomer.

if there wasn't support, these places wouldn't be unionizing in the first place.

 

[elbourreau]

Unions = death of the studio.

But they were already on their way to the graveyard...

 

[Topher]

if there wasn't support, these places wouldn't be unionizing in the first place.

This isn't "ground floor" jobs though. These are highly skilled/technical minded people. And I still have yet to see what this union is supposed to do for them besides remote work.

I don't mean to suggest unions don't provide value in some industries. But video game devs thinking they need a union is beyond pathetic, although certainly not a surprise considering the nonsense that has inflected the video game industry and absolute lack of common sense by so many people involved in it.

Remember when the gaming union(s) supported the MS - Activision merger? Now imagine paying union dues for such a stupid position / advice / whatever? Cause nothing protects jobs like consolidation. Nothing I tell you.

Exactly. And being in a union didn't help those CWA members laid off by Microsoft in June. What's the point?

 

[adamsapple]

This isn't "ground floor" jobs though. These are highly skilled/technical minded people. And I still have yet to see what this union is supposed to do for them besides remote work.

The OP article doesn't specify but in general, I can see a union being beneficial for a few things for IT like a safety net from random layoffs, negotiating work hours to reduce crunch etc.

 

[Harlock]

Demons will not be discriminated anymore.

 

[IDKFA]

This isn't "ground floor" jobs though. These are highly skilled/technical minded people. And I still have yet to see what this union is supposed to do for them besides remote work.

Make working conditions more in line with the UK and rest of Europe would be good.

Minimum of at least 25 days paid annual leave per year.

Paid maternity leave for at least 39 weeks at full pay.

Paid medical leave for a medical or dental appointment.

Those are just off the top of my head. The US workers could have much better working conditions if they wanted them.

 

[NickFire]

The OP article doesn't specify but in general, I can see a union being beneficial for a few things for IT like a safety net from random layoffs, negotiating work hours to reduce crunch etc.

Oh my sides the crunch bullshit again.

Games cost money to make. A lot. Game companies need to coordinate with retailers too. They need to run advertising campaigns as well. Sometimes deadlines need to stick. Suck it up and get that extra Starbucks latte, work the extra hours when the project is near its end, and stop crying like a bunch of babies. No one is oppressed drawing demons for doom.

 

[Topher]

The OP article doesn't specify but in general, I can see a union being beneficial for a few things for IT like a safety net from random layoffs, negotiating work hours to reduce crunch etc.

CWA members were laid off this very year by Microsoft. There is no safety net. The only real benefit that is stated in the article is remote work.

 

[adamsapple]

Oh my sides the crunch bullshit again.

Games cost money to make. A lot. Game companies need to coordinate with retailers too. They need to run advertising campaigns as well. Sometimes deadlines need to stick. Suck it up and get that extra Starbucks latte, work the extra hours when the project is near its end, and stop crying like a bunch of babies. No one is oppressed drawing demons for doom.

Ok, Veruca.

 

[NickFire]

Ok, Veruca.

Common sense kiddo. Common sense.

 

[ValiantInstance]

I am unapologetically pro-crunch. The vast majority of these AAA games that take 5+ years to make are still unfinished or just not worth your time anyway. Strict deadlines make better games.

I still can't believe Hellblade 2. 7 years for that nonsense, should be investigated for money laundering.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Ok, Veruca.

I wouldn't even mind a few casualties every year if it meant better games

 

[Topher]

Oh my sides the crunch bullshit again.

Games cost money to make. A lot. Game companies need to coordinate with retailers too. They need to run advertising campaigns as well. Sometimes deadlines need to stick. Suck it up and get that extra Starbucks latte, work the extra hours when the project is near its end, and stop crying like a bunch of babies. No one is oppressed drawing demons for doom.

For us normal non-gaming workers, crunch is called working overtime. Horrors

 

[adamsapple]

I wouldn't even mind a few casualties every year if it meant better games

 

[taylor34]

At the end of the day, the result (forming a union) was Microsoft's fault. By:

laying off 15,000 this year
closing game studios left and right
outsourcing everything they can overseas
etc

All these studios can see it's a matter of time before they're axed no matter what they produce (see Hi-Fi Rush). They pushed these studios into a corner. Am I pro-union? Eh, probably not except for certain areas. But I'm certainly not pro-Microsoft in this situation because of how poorly they're treating their employees.

As far as the crunch things go, I've been through that before. It sucks. Not getting paid for tons of work is pretty demoralizing after a while. Even more demoralizing when your company then talks about record profits and instead of thanking you/rewarding you for the product you just made instead decides to tell your group that's it's trash, you suck, and that your product is awful (yes this happened to me about 5 years ago). And then the product we worked on went on to be one of the biggest products for the company in years. They kicked the product head off the product and were in the process of reassigning us when sales started coming in showing that it was a giant hit. No apology, just pretended that they never said all the bad things, lol.

For reference gaming wise to this, it was like assigning an A level team to make an A level product, then management increasing the scope to be a AAA without giving any more people or time, then getting really pissed when it was 1 to 2 months late (yes that's all it slipped). These companies are morons, lol, they just do stupid things without doing the research to whether their concerns were justified or whether it may have been their own fault.

 

[NickFire]

At the end of the day, the result (forming a union) was Microsoft's fault. By:

laying off 15,000 this year
closing game studios left and right
outsourcing everything they can overseas
etc

All these studios can see it's a matter of time before they're axed no matter what they produce (see Hi-Fi Rush). They pushed these studios into a corner. Am I pro-union? Eh, probably not except for certain areas. But I'm certainly not pro-Microsoft in this situation because of how poorly they're treating their employees.

As far as the crunch things go, I've been through that before. It sucks. Not getting paid for tons of work is pretty demoralizing after a while. Even more demoralizing when your company then talks about record profits and instead of thanking you/rewarding you for the product you just made instead decides to tell your group that's it's trash, you suck, and that your product is awful (yes this happened to me about 5 years ago). And then the product we worked on went on to be one of the biggest products for the company in years. They kicked the product head off the product and were in the process of reassigning us when sales started coming in showing that it was a giant hit. No apology, just pretended that they never said all the bad things, lol.

For reference gaming wise to this, it was like assigning an A level team to make an A level product, then management increasing the scope to be a AAA without giving any more people or time, then getting really pissed when it was 1 to 2 months late (yes that's all it slipped). These companies are morons, lol, they just do stupid things without doing the research to whether their concerns were justified or whether it may have been their own fault.

I personally think any union who supported the merger shares some blame. Some is the key word. I'm not about to lay the majority or anything close or higher than that at their feet.

I say they share the blame because they helped give political cover for this merger happening. Their support was referenced. And in this day and age had they been against it the media would have talking about that. Get enough people riled up and suddenly you have way more people objecting vocally. Then you get more politicians objecting.

 

[amigastar]

Unions = death of the studio.

But they were already on their way to the graveyard...

That would suck and they don't deserve it. All new Doom games were wonderful in their own way.

 

[Denton]

Good luck with that. I am sure it will have no negative unintended consequences whatsoever.

 

[taylor34]

Good luck with that. I am sure it will have no negative unintended consequences whatsoever.

I'm sure it came down to a pro/con thing like everything else:

If they stay as is, there's probably a 90%+ chance they're either getting closed, mostly laid off, etc in the next 5 years

If they unionize, they get some extra political support, so maybe that reduces it to 75%.

I think that's all this is. Trying to gain political support from Unions to possibly save their jobs.

Because we know where the states are now. They're suing to keep allow cheap foreign H1-b's to come in and take American jobs. Seriously, our states are suing to take jobs from American workers. This is how bad it is now:

https://www.newsweek.com/h-1b-visas-20-states-sue-trump-administration-over-100k-fee-11206608

So tech workers if you live in any of these 20 states, they're suing to allow people overseas to take your job. THAT is what is embarrassing here. Foreign countries are paying off politicians to lay off Americans and hire overseas. That's what's pushing things like this now, their own state wants them to get laid off.

 

[MagusMajul]

Given how poor workers rights are in America it's pretty surprising that so many think unions are unnecessary.

In Europe there is more of a collective mindset pretty much everyone there goes to work just to survive and they expect the government to take care of them from cradle to grave.

In the USA you have more people who self centered and we want to be rich, to be king, to be ruler of the earth. Many of my fellow Americans, myself included, are self employed and want to become the next billionaire. So you have entirely different views on labor and the role of government especially in red states.

America is a country founded on pioneers and immigrants who had nothing but lint in their pockets a gun in one hand and a bible in the other. We marched forward against a wild land and wild people to make it into our own kingdom and we don't like to share or be told what to do. This mindset persists to this day here. Not with everyone but with many.

 

[RoadHazard]

In Europe there is more of a collective mindset pretty much everyone there goes to work just to survive and they expect the government to take care of them from cradle to grave.

In the USA you have more people who self centered and we want to be rich, to be king, to be ruler of the earth. Many of my fellow Americans, myself included, are self employed and want to become the next billionaire. So you have entirely different views on labor and the role of government especially in red states.

America is a country founded on pioneers and immigrants who had nothing but lint in their pockets a gun in one hand and a bible in the other. We marched forward against a wild land and wild people to make it into our own kingdom and we don't like to share or be told what to do. This mindset persists to this day here. Not with everyone but with many.

Yeah, I get that, but that's not reality for 99.999999% of people.

 

[Topher]

Yeah, I get that, but that's not reality for 99.999999% of people.

True, but a lot of people in the US feel that unions would actually hinder their progress rather than help. It's just a different mindset, but it isn't universal. Unions are more popular in blue collar jobs.

 

[Denton]

Because we know where the states are now. They're suing to keep allow cheap foreign H1-b's to come in and take American jobs. Seriously, our states are suing to take jobs from American workers. This is how bad it is now:

https://www.newsweek.com/h-1b-visas-20-states-sue-trump-administration-over-100k-fee-11206608

Well, 49% of Americans are apparently braindead and keep voting for blue traitors so what would you expect.

Not that US is unique in that, in last elections in my country the braindead were 44%.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

So more incompetents that will be more difficult to fire despite not producing a lot for their salary...Yeah, western studios are cooked. The more unionized workforce is becoming, the worse game quality gets. Like at this point startups, various smaller groups working in their attic and people will work issues (like the east) are able to produce better games. Makes you wonder...

In Europe there is more of a collective mindset pretty much everyone there goes to work just to survive and they expect the government to take care of them from cradle to grave.

Yeah. Most of the big companies are basically pension funds for the worker - they work for 40-50 years in one company on the same position and then retired with a big paycheck, traveling across the world, moving to Spain etc. One of the reasons why the most innovation is coming either from newly founded companies and everything else is an "open air museum".

True, but a lot of people in the US feel that unions would actually hinder their progress rather than help. It's just a different mindset, but it isn't universal. Unions are more popular in blue collar jobs.

It makes sense though for blue collar jobs as most of the people working there are basically almost always stuck to the same place of work due to difficulty in skill transfer. So they either have to work all their life as a person X or they will have trouble finding another job. Would not be surprised that unionization of the blue collar jobs was one of the reasons why so many jobs were moved outside the USA.

Well, 49% of Americans are apparently braindead and keep voting for blue traitors so what would you expect.

Not that US is unique in that, in last elections in my country the braindead were 44%.

The hilarious part of is it those are mainly blue states. So they are basically advocating for more H1B while also advocating for unions of the local workforce, advocating for bigger government etc. Bankrupting itself.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Funny you post these, yet you slob off Microsoft of all corporations.

 

[adamsapple]

Funny you post these, yet you slob off Microsoft of all corporations.

They seem to be (only?) one of the major ones which don't have an issue with unionizing.

 

[DeepEnigma]

They seem to be (only?) one of the major ones which don't have an issue with unionizing.

That's not the point as Topher has mentioned. It doesn't stop them from firing en mass while raking in record profits. And id will suffer the same fate, bet.

You're hung up on PR lines for false virtue wins and ignore the actions your brand does to get to where they are today.

And they didn't get there "supporting unions."

 

[Ogbert]

The death rattle of a dying studio.

 

[M1chl]

Based

 

[IDKFA]

Funny you post these, yet you slob off Microsoft of all corporations.

He has a point.

If the US was more pro union, they might have better workers rights comparable to the UK and the rest of Europe.

 

[DeepEnigma]

He has a point.

If the US was more pro union, they might have better workers rights comparable to the UK and the rest of Europe.

That has nothing to do with my comment. MS is one of the slimiest ran companies in the world when it comes to layoffs, H1B, contract work, etc, so cheerleading PR wins when they prove time and time again to disregard come layoff or studio closure time is false virtue.

Down to Sting concerts in Davos as those very types in the meme he shared were chuckling away at the profits they saved and the yachts they'll be buying for said layoff trimming for investors.

 

[Nephryte]

Is john Carmack still in charge there ? ....i doubt so....

 

[Astray]

CWA members were laid off this very year by Microsoft. There is no safety net. The only real benefit that is stated in the article is remote work.

Need to look it up, I'm fairly certain it's been reported that those guys had much better terms on the way out vs non-union employees.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Is john Carmack still in charge there ? ....i doubt so....

No. He left in late 2013.

 

[taylor34]

Well, 49% of Americans are apparently braindead and keep voting for blue traitors so what would you expect.

Not that US is unique in that, in last elections in my country the braindead were 44%.

It's not even that, both parties are in favor of them. So you're screwed either way. One is just slightly more in favor of them (democrats) than the other. People don't understand how much their job system is being systematically taken away by H1-b, OPT, etc. The University of Michigan has 499 H1-b's, yes the U of Michigan. It's not even just corporations, it's public education, government jobs, etc. So we're paying tax dollars to import people from overseas to take US jobs.

 

[Topher]

Need to look it up, I'm fairly certain it's been reported that those guys had much better terms on the way out vs non-union employees.

Yeah? Well that's a little different then considering the threat of layoffs at Microsoft will be looming the next few years.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Yeah? Well that's a little different then considering the threat of layoffs at Microsoft will be looming the next few years.

Should be enough time to seize the means of production

 

[Topher]

Should be enough time to seize the means of production

Nationalize Microsoft.

 

[Nephryte]

Another great studio that used to be goated will now fall.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

True, but a lot of people in the US feel that unions would actually hinder their progress rather than help. It's just a different mindset, but it isn't universal. Unions are more popular in blue collar jobs.

Totally.

Right off the bat, unions are a big no-no for lots of people.

Why the hell would I want my pay to be pre-determined due to tenure and if I got a personal or work issue I need resolved I need to go through some snooping union rep who knows my confidential issue? And as for union dues, why would want to pay $500-1000/year for something I dont care about being part of?

It's not like everyone whose non-unionized are paid min wage, treated like shit, get no benefits or bonuses, cant get promoted etc.... Actually, we probably skew higher especially management jobs which are going to be non-unionized and paid even more with bigger bonuses.

But what union members dont realize is every company has a general SG&A ratio they want to pay out (let's say its 15% of gross sales). For all the overpaid laggards who cant be fired, it just means there's less money for the good workers who should get promotions blowing by the bad ones. For the non-union staff who are held to the same ratio, we just get fired or promoted based on who does what.

Think of it like school. You can pick to be part of a group who always gets C's no matter what. You'll pass, but you'll get a C. Or you do the normal thing and based on how well you do you can get an A+ or a F. I'll take the A to F route and control my own destiny thank you very much. If someone wants to coast with a C and if there's an issue with the teacher a school rep handles it for you that's fine. Thats their choice.

But if thats what the unions want (parity pay based on tenure and not performance) then you can see the type of attitude they got regarding performance. Their idea of pay hikes is simply based on who can last the longest without getting fired. Not doing the best job.

That's like saying on a sports team, the player who gets paid the most is the guy whose been on the roster the longest. Makes zero sense.

But what unions do is try to officially classify union jobs by role, not individuals. That's because if a department of the same kind of role (let's say an analyst) is split between some wanting a membership and some dont, it looks bad and weakens their cause since half of them dont want it and will get different pay and rules. And if the union side sees the non-union people have some better or more flexible pay and perks, it looks bad on the union process because its purpose is supposed to be best pay and benefits. If you pay dues and follow a process, expectations are you should get the best. So trying to blanket classify roles makes it so union members following the same rules and pay cant compare.

 

[Topher]

Totally.

Right off the bat, unions are a big no-no for lots of people.

Why the hell would I want my pay to be pre-determined due to tenure and if I got a personal or work issue I need resolved I need to go through some snooping union rep who knows my confidential issue? And as for union dues, why would want to pay $500-1000/year for something I dont care about being part of?

It's not like everyone whose non-unionized are paid min wage, treated like shit, get no benefits or bonuses, cant get promoted etc.... Actually, we probably skew higher especially management jobs which are going to be non-unionized and paid even more with bigger bonuses.

But what union members dont realize is every company has a general SG&A ratio they want to pay out (let's say its 15% of gross sales). For all the overpaid laggards who cant be fired, it just means there's less money for the good workers who should get promotions blowing by the bad ones. For the non-union staff who are held to the same ratio, we just get fired or promoted based on who does what.

Think of it like school. You can pick to be part of a group who always gets C's no matter what. You'll pass, but you'll get a C. Or you do the normal thing and based on how well you do you can get an A+ or a F. I'll take the A to F route and control my own destiny thank you very much. If someone wants to coast with a C and if there's an issue with the teacher a school rep handles it for you that's fine. Thats their choice.

But if thats what the unions want (parity pay based on tenure and not performance) then you can see the type of attitude they got regarding performance. Their idea of pay hikes is simply based on who can last the longest without getting fired. Not doing the best job.

That's like saying on a sports team, the player who gets paid the most is the guy whose been on the roster the longest. Makes zero sense.

But what unions do is try to officially classify union jobs by role, not individuals. That's because if a department of the same kind of role (let's say an analyst) is split between some wanting a membership and some dont, it looks bad and weakens their cause since half of them dont want it and will get different pay and rules. And if the union side sees the non-union people have some better or more flexible pay and perks, it looks bad on the union process because its purpose is supposed to be best pay and benefits. If you pay dues and follow a process, expectations are you should get the best. So trying to blanket classify roles makes it so union members following the same rules and pay cant compare.

In a nutshell...

Some people are driven greedy sonsofbitches who only look out for number one like MagusMajul

Others are worthless parasites who want the public to pay for their well being so they can play video games their entire lives.....like Ass of Can Whooping

Spoiler

 

[StreetsofBeige]

In a nutshell...

Some people are driven greedy sonsofbitches who only look out for number one like MagusMajul

Others are worthless parasites who want the public to pay for their well being so they can play video games their entire lives.....like Ass of Can Whooping

Spoiler

Even if someone doesnt care about the rules or paying union due or strict pay tiers, what if someone wants a management role? Maybe EU and Japan are different(?), but pretty much all management roles cant even unionize in US/Canada.

So whats the point of wanting to be a union member if you want to be a manager, director or VP, or currently are one?

 

[Killer8]

Gamers on AI: "I hate AI! I want my games to be made by HUMANS only! If I see there's an AI tag on Steam I will NOT buy your game! Artistic integrity!!"

Gamers on the humans behind their games: "fuck those guys! You want more pay!? I'm glad they're losing their jobs, they're all woke anyway! As a gamer I only care about the end product!"

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Gamers on AI: "I hate AI! I want my games to be made by HUMANS only! If I see there's an AI tag on Steam I will NOT buy your game! Artistic integrity!!"

Gamers on the humans behind their games: "fuck those guys! You want more pay!? I'm glad they're losing their jobs, they're all woke anyway! As a gamer I only care about the end product!"

Simple solution: Highly paid video game employees make solid and polished games on time.

If people are going to be paid good money with pricey project budgets, doesnt it make sense they make quality products on time? Doesnt make sense no name indie studios can make good games with a fraction of resources.

Studios just a generation or two were churning out great games and sequels with modest budgets and time. And they even had to go through the grind of new console features like online gameplay being standard, achievement/trophy being new, MTX being new, and things like 360 and PS3 were new architectures compared to PCs and each other. Seemed like they could figure it out back then,

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

In a nutshell...

Some people are driven greedy sonsofbitches who only look out for number one like MagusMajul

Others are worthless parasites who want the public to pay for their well being so they can play video games their entire lives.....like Ass of Can Whooping

Spoiler

Thanks for your tax money loser

 

[Jinzo Prime]

Is john Carmack still in charge there ? ....i doubt so....

John Carmack's been doing a lot of things sense he left ID. Currently, building AI systems.

 

[IDKFA]

That has nothing to do with my comment.

It doesn't.

I was replying to somebody else and quoted your post by mistake. Sorry, buddy. No harm intended. My bad.

 

[xrnzaaas]

Unions = death of the studio.

But they were already on their way to the graveyard...

id Software closing down wouldn't suprirse me tbh. The last Doom game failed to make a bigger impact and I reckon they were betting big on it to be a big success.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

id Software closing down wouldn't suprirse me tbh. The last Doom game failed to make a bigger impact and I reckon they were betting big on it to be a big success.

It's a shame a studio with such a good FPS engine has always limited itself to mostly Doom and Quake. Two massive downtrending kinds of shooter games. This isnt the 90s anymore when they were on everyone's top fav shooters lists. They could had made those Rage games into something bigger and better, but bailed on that series (unless they got a Rage 3 in the works). Or try a new shooter IP.

I dont know how adaptable id engines are, but just imagine if that slick engine could be used for RPGs or sci-fi games like ME. But I guess Bethesda's hitchy Gamebryo engine does complicated games like that.

 

[Astray]

Yeah? Well that's a little different then considering the threat of layoffs at Microsoft will be looming the next few years.

Yeah I mean there is a big difference between being told to pack your stuff today and the company having to give you 4-6 months of salary while you figure things out.

I think generally, video game developers have been extremely mistreated by publishers and studios.. Long workhours with terrible terrible salaries. Something like Unions was happening no matter what.