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If a tree falls in a forest...

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M

MIMIC

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...and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

I always thought that this "paradox" was nothing more than a simple riddle. I always would confidently answer yes (which I still do). But I was thinking about this question the other day and spent a good hour Googling the question and reading the various answers. :lol

My mind was BOGGLED! BOOGLED, I tell you! The definition of "sound" (and its MANY interpretations), various philosophical and scientific explanations, human nature, answers dealing with physics, etc. Good Lord, all this for this for a single question.

So I ask, what do YOU think? My answer is simple: Yes...just because you aren't there to experience something doesn't mean it didn't happen. We all (I assume) know what the sound of a falling tree is. If no one was there to hear it, the sound would still be made, whether your ear is there to catch it or not. The world doesn't operate differently in our absence. It doesn't fall "silently" just because we didn't hear it. Our mere presence (or absence) has nothing to do with the physical world.
 
MIMIC said:
My answer is simple: Yes...just because you aren't there to experience something doesn't mean it didn't happen. We all (I assume) know what the sound of a falling tree is. If no one was there to hear it, the sound would still be made, whether your ear is there to catch it or not. The world doesn't operate differently in our absence. It doesn't fall "silently" just because we didn't hear it. Our mere presence (or absence) has nothing to do with the physical world.
Click to expand...

That's what I'd say.
 
sound1 (sound) pronunciation
n.
1.
1. Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing.
2. Transmitted vibrations of any frequency.
3. The sensation stimulated in the organs of hearing by such vibrations in the air or other medium.
4. Such sensations considered as a group.
Click to expand...

By definitions 1.1 and 1.2, yes. By 1.3 and 1.4, no.

That was easy.
 
Lisa: "what is the sound of one hand clapping"?
Bart: "thats easy........."
 
iapetus said:
By definitions 1.1 and 1.2, yes. By 1.3 and 1.4, no.

That was easy.
Click to expand...

1.3 and 1.4 don't take into account of a possible tape recording. The sound was still made but the tape recording has no "sensation" (or organs for that matter).
 
Trees don't actually fall when people are not around. Much like the bones of Dinosaurs, "fallen" trees are actually placed there by the Over Watcher for effect.
 
catfish said:
Lisa: "what is the sound of one hand clapping"?
Bart: "thats easy........."
Click to expand...

Haha, I was just thinking of that episode. And then Lisa is like

Lisa: Bart...If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

Bart: *gasps...*

Lisa: Now you're ready.


Or something along the lines.
 
MIMIC said:
1.3 and 1.4 don't take into account of a possible tape recording. The sound was still made but the tape recording has no "sensation" (or organs for that matter).
Click to expand...

So no sound, since it didn't stimulate the organs of hearing. If you then play it back there's a sound, but made by the tape recorder, not the tree.
 
Sound is a wave, it creates vibrations. Even if its not heard or if there is no one around to hear it, the wave still makes ripples in the air. The only place where a tree falling would make no sound at all is if it fell on the moon or someplace where there is no air to conduct the sound.

Physically, the sound existed. It's really that simple.
 
iapetus said:
"If a metaphor falls in a forest does it make a sound?"

Deep...

(A metaphor for what, exactly?)
Click to expand...

:lol

Well, I thought it was just intended to make you think about what goes on beyond what you can directly sense. The phrase doesn't literally have to mean a tree, it could just be anything that can't be directly perceived.

And there's also the issue of whether we can believe that anything exists outside of our minds. Y'know, solipsism, and all that.

[/pretentious wankery] (It's too bad I'm not very articulate...)
 
No because god catches falling things before they hit the ground when no one is around to see or hear them.

Its his little joke to himself, and he is still chuckling about it to himself some 14 billion +/- years later
 
Deku said:
Physically, the sound existed. It's really that simple.
Click to expand...

No, it's not. If you weren't there to hear the tree fall, it really didn't make a sound then for you, did it? Everyone always takes this question too literally. There's really no right or wrong answer, it demonstrates how your perspective defines reality, not the other way around.
 
Deku said:
Sound is a wave, it creates vibrations. Even if its not heard or if there is no one around to hear it, the wave still makes ripples in the air.
Click to expand...

Read the definitions again, though. That only matches two out of the four definitions of Sound (and there are actually nine more listed in that dictionary entry, of which four it definitely doesn't make, four it might do, and one makes no sense in the context.

All of which goes to show that as with so many questions like this it's purely a matter of how you choose to define your terms.
 
iapetus said:
Read the definitions again, though. That only matches two out of the four definitions of Sound (and there are actually nine more listed in that dictionary entry, of which four it definitely doesn't make, four it might do, and one makes no sense in the context.

All of which goes to show that as with so many questions like this it's purely a matter of how you choose to define your terms.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Nothing else to say as I'd be repeating exactly what you've said so far.
 
The same can be applied for light:

the sensation aroused by stimulation of the visual receptors.

I find it ridiculous that if, say, for instance, a fire burns and no one is there to see it, it wouldn't give off any light because no "sensation [is] aroused by stimulation of the visual receptors."

That is absolutely crazy.

The world exists beyond our presence, regardless of how we define these words. Might as well say that time wouldn't exist if no one was there. Nobody is there to smell, touch, see, hear, or feel, so therefore, is isn't there.

This view is insane and very egotistical.
 
Yeah I laugh at people who take this question more seriously. If you're going to try to give me some life advice of some sort, Chrissakes don't tell me this stupid "riddle". It's more like a rhetorical question to me :lol
 
Phoenix said:
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it fall, how do you know it fell :)
Click to expand...

If I stumble acrossed a tree that fell down in a forest I can say with confidence that when it fell it made a sound similar to what a tree would make when it falls over.
 
Lemurnator said:
If I stumble acrossed a tree that fell down in a forest I can say with confidence that when it fell it made a sound similar to what a tree would make when it falls over.
Click to expand...

The point is you don't know how it ended up there, 100% for sure. Basically, is there anything we can know with absolute confidence? That's the whole point of this question IMO. But on a grander scale, I don't care to argue about it, it won't get anyone anywhere.

And if you start telling people if you saw a tree fall, they'll start to ask you if your eyes sometimes deceive you, etc..
 
Lemurnator said:
I have a question for YOU.

How many roads must a man walk down before you can call him a man?
Click to expand...
Well, I'll answer your question with a question, how many roads does it take for that man to get to a prostitute?
 
MIMIC said:
The world exists beyond our presence, regardless of how we define these words. Might as well say that time wouldn't exist if no one was there. Nobody is there to smell, touch, see, hear, or feel, so therefore, is isn't there.

This view is insane and very egotistical.
Click to expand...

No, it's neither, you're just not comprehending the idea. Actually, what is egotistical is saying you know exactly what is real and what isn't. Great minds have debated the topic for thousands of years, but hey, glad you're here to set it straight for us. :D

I'm not saying things don't necessarily exist outside of our presence. We define that they're there. That doesn't necessarily make them there, it's our working reality; how we've defined the world around us in order to function in it. As far as the tree goes, we have defined sound as it relates to us. There is two parts to sound - the waves created by the sound producing action, then something to translate those waves into what we've defined as sound. So what if you just have the waves without the translator? Is it still what we call sound?

Put it this way, what kind of sound does a falling tree make to a deaf person? None. So here's a case where a falling tree doesn't make a sound at all even if the person is there! If we were all deaf, the concept of sound wouldn't even exist. Do you see what I'm saying? There isn't "a" reality, it's all subjective upon the person experiencing it.
 
Ha that's a good way to put it VALIS.

When we sense things, well there's the stimulus energy and then our body that interprets that energy into some form of sensation (i.e. vision/sound/tactile sensation/etc.).

What I mean by energy, is well just energy. It just comes in different forms, and the our sensory receptors are merely more receptive to certain forms of energy than others. Actually if you hit yourself in the eye hard enough, that energy there is enough to fire the receptors and you'll experience light.

Anyway, now looking at the question, it becomes much more interesting...
 
Gek54 said:
What came first? The chicken or the egg?
Click to expand...

chickenegg.gif
 
Cyan said:
Ah, but the question presupposes that it's a man already, therefore zero!

Q.E.D. Cogito ergo sum. Quid pro quo.
Click to expand...

That doesn't mean you can call him a man. In a matriarchy awash with political correctness, for example, you might have to call him a person of challenged mammiferosity.
 
Gek54 said:
What came first? The chicken or the egg?

I say egg. Genetic anaomolies = evolution.
Click to expand...
The egg for sure, Dinosaurs also layed eggs :)




The sound of 1 hand clapping is a bit muffed and hollow clap. Pretty easy to do as well :) Use your fingers to slap the palm of your hand
 
MIMIC said:
...and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

I always thought that this "paradox" was nothing more than a simple riddle. I always would confidently answer yes (which I still do). But I was thinking about this question the other day and spent a good hour Googling the question and reading the various answers. :lol

My mind was BOGGLED! BOOGLED, I tell you! The definition of "sound" (and its MANY interpretations), various philosophical and scientific explanations, human nature, answers dealing with physics, etc. Good Lord, all this for this for a single question.

So I ask, what do YOU think? My answer is simple: Yes...just because you aren't there to experience something doesn't mean it didn't happen. We all (I assume) know what the sound of a falling tree is. If no one was there to hear it, the sound would still be made, whether your ear is there to catch it or not. The world doesn't operate differently in our absence. It doesn't fall "silently" just because we didn't hear it. Our mere presence (or absence) has nothing to do with the physical world.
Click to expand...
The point of the quesition is not the question itself, but your ability to comprehend the meaning. It is not asking if a tree makes a noise when it falls, it is asking what your definition of sound is.
 
Koshiro said:
The point of the quesition is not the question itself, but your ability to comprehend the meaning. It is not asking if a tree makes a noise when it falls, it is asking what your definition of sound is.
Click to expand...

That said, sound is technically most correct when refering to the actual soundwaves and what not, rather than the perception of sound... which we correctly identify by calling it hearing.

light is to sight, as sound is to hearing.

You can't deny that there's light even if there's no sight for the light... the evidence of its presence can still be measured after the fact, in cases where exposure is long or intense... similarly, sound can leave its mark if its loud or long enough.

As for the question, the original intent was as one of those questions without an answer, but to have the person asked think deeply...
except we now do have a pretty solid answer, indicating that the original question has lived past its use by date.
 
Dear age old question,

congrats.
You succeeded in doing what you were supposed to do on a message board in the space year 2005.

thanks
dc
 
I never understood the purpose of this question.

Ok, if you are THERE, and you see it fall, and you hear it fall, then OBVIOUSLY even if you weren't there the same thing would happen. Why wouldn't it??

IF I LEAVE MY STEREO PLAYING WHEN NO ONE IS HOME WOULD IT STILL BE ABLE TO BE HEARD?? IT BOGGLES THE MIND!

;p
 
VALIS said:
Put it this way, what kind of sound does a falling tree make to a deaf person? None. So here's a case where a falling tree doesn't make a sound at all even if the person is there! If we were all deaf, the concept of sound wouldn't even exist. Do you see what I'm saying? There isn't "a" reality, it's all subjective upon the person experiencing it.
Click to expand...

I understand your point, but you have to get BEYOND subjectivity if you've experienced it once before.
 
Put it this way, what kind of sound does a falling tree make to a deaf person? None. So here's a case where a falling tree doesn't make a sound at all even if the person is there! If we were all deaf, the concept of sound wouldn't even exist. Do you see what I'm saying? There isn't "a" reality, it's all subjective upon the person experiencing it.
Click to expand...

What?

If something makes a sound in front of a deaf person, and they can't hear it, then it's still made a sound :lol Sounds exist whether they're heard or not. It's only when we get close to them, hear it and interpret, and then associate it with an object that we understand what that sound is. Things don't stop just making noise because there's nobody around to hear it :lol

That isn't subjectivity or one-sided thinking, it's fact. I'm interested in the alternative arguments to this but I doubt any of them could convince me
 
123rl said:
What?

If something makes a sound in front of a deaf person, and they can't hear it, then it's still made a sound :lol Sounds exist whether they're heard or not. It's only when we get close to them, hear it and interpret, and then associate it with an object that we understand what that sound is. Things don't stop just making noise because there's nobody around to hear it :lol
Click to expand...

So, tell me, what color is the sun? Yellowish, right? But outside of our atmosphere, it looks white. Sunlight also contains all seven colors of the spectrum, atmospheric conditions just have us seeing the yellowish and sometimes red parts, never the green and never the blue. We have a blue sun as much as it is a yellow sun, WE just never see it as blue under our atmosphere.

But there is no inherent "yellowness" built into the sun, there is no "greenness" in grass, and there is no sound built into a falling tree. It takes certain conditions to make these things happen, they are not within the objects themselves. A falling tree does not make sound to a deaf person, nor does it make a sound if no one is there to hear it because all the conditions of what we've defined as sound aren't being met. Again, if we were all deaf, we wouldn't be talking about sound at all. So how can you say a falling tree DOES make a sound all the time? It obviously doesn't under those conditions. Reality is subjective upon the person experiencing it.

Plato's Allegory of the Cave:
http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/cave.htm
 
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