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If someone can clarify: Kerry vs Iraq

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Socreges

Banned
Now that Kerry seems to be inching towards the White House, I'm beginning to wonder just how this guy will operate on an international level. ie, Canada/US relations, the "war" on terror, diplomacy with other nations, etc. But first I'd like to understand this Iraq business because his stance seems to be one very large contradiction.

Kerry has not disputed that it is only the CIA that is at fault for the intelligence errors. But he constantly holds Bush responsible. Fair enough. It is Bush, after all, that pushed for war and inevitably went. Nonetheless, would Kerry have been any different? Didn't he vote to go to Iraq?

I must be missing one very crucial detail. This doesn't add up.
 
Socreges said:
Now that Kerry seems to be inching towards the White House, I'm beginning to wonder just how this guy will operate on an international level. ie, Canada/US relations, the "war" on terror, diplomacy with other nations, etc. But first I'd like to understand this Iraq business because his stance seems to be one very large contradiction.

Kerry has not disputed that it is only the CIA that is at fault for the intelligence errors. But he constantly holds Bush responsible. Fair enough. It is Bush, after all, that pushed for war and inevitably went. Nonetheless, would Kerry have been any different? Didn't he vote to go to Iraq?

I must be missing one very crucial detail. This doesn't add up.

It doesn't matter what Kerry's stance is. His administration will be forced to finish the mess Bush has created in Iraq if they like it or not.

And yes, I believe in the beginning Kerry was for going into Iraq, but I'm sure many other Democrats and Republicans were also, who now regret the fact that they were. A lot of people were duped by the Bush administration's lies.
 

Lathentar

Looking for Pants
Hannity had a great segment on his radio broadcast today where they had a montage of Kerry's stance over the War in Iraq over the past... 2 years I guess its been. He was sure of the WMDs and threat that Iraq posed. If he was in the White House he would have gone to war provided with the same evidence, no doubt.
 

AntoneM

Member
the thing is, Kerry voted to go to Iraq when Iraq had biological/chemical weapons and a developing nuclear program. He is now pissed because Iraq had none of the above.
 

AntoneM

Member
Lathentar said:
Hannity had a great segment on his radio broadcast today where they had a montage of Kerry's stance over the War in Iraq over the past... 2 years I guess its been. He was sure of the WMDs and threat that Iraq posed. If he was in the White House he would have gone to war provided with the same evidence, no doubt.

He would NOT have gone without UN support!
 
Lathentar said:
Hannity had a great segment on his radio broadcast today where they had a montage of Kerry's stance over the War in Iraq over the past... 2 years I guess its been. He was sure of the WMDs and threat that Iraq posed. If he was in the White House he would have gone to war provided with the same evidence, no doubt.

That's fucking bullshit. How you can say Kerry would have gone to war with the same "evidence?" We know Bush's evidence/intelligence for going to war was fucking weak now that the 9/11 commission's job is done. Bush merely put major fucking spin on weak intelligence to further his own agenda, and that is why we are in the mess we are today. When do our soldiers get to stop dying in Iraq? 10 years, or 20 years when the Iraqi government/forces are strong enough to prevent them from being overthrown? I'd be suprised if the current Iraqi government could stop a gang of angry 12 year olds from taking over the country without the help of the U.S. forces.
 

Socreges

Banned
He would NOT have gone without UN support!
Ok, this is the kind of answer I'm looking for, guys (enough whodunit bullshit). Though it was inadvertently posted. :p

I thought the vote [where Kerry supported the war] was held despite UN's reluctance. I guess it was before then? I can see where he's coming from then.
 

AntoneM

Member
Socreges said:
Ok, this is the kind of answer I'm looking for, guys (enough whodunit bullshit). Though it was inadvertently posted. :p

I thought the vote [where Kerry supported the war] was held despite UN's reluctance. I guess it was before then? I can see where he's coming from then.

I'm not sure when the vote was, I'm just re-iterrating what Kerry himself has said (rather than speculation on what he would or wouldn't do). It's entirely possible that he voted to go without UN support, but it was based on shitty intelligence.
 

Socreges

Banned
max_cool said:
I'm not sure when the vote was, I'm just re-iterrating what Kerry himself has said. It's entirely possible that he voted to go without UN support, but it was based on shitty intelligence.
Then we're back to square one.
 

AntoneM

Member
Either way we are going to be in Iraq for a long time to come. we are going to need help and many other western nations have openly condemed Bush and would be more willing to cooperate with Kerry, not because of Kerry himself but because of his party. As far as Kerry vs. Iraq... There is no way of knowing what he would have done, only what he says he will do. What he says he'll do is bring in support from around the world (meaning the UN more than likely) this would mean making more than a few consessions to the UN.
 

Eric-GCA

Banned
Its amazing how many people here are deluding themselves into thinking that countries like France, Germany and Belgium will be dying to send support and soldiers into Iraq just because Kerry gets elected.

And what exactly is the UN good for again? They can't even come to agreement on Sudan, what are they gonna accomplish in Iraq?
 
max_cool said:
Either way we are going to be in Iraq for a long time to come. we are going to need help and many other western nations have openly condemed Bush and would be more willing to cooperate with Kerry, not because of Kerry himself but because of his party.

Probably more like other nations would be more willing to cooperate with Kerry, not because of Kerry himself, but because he isn't Bush.


As far as Kerry vs. Iraq... There is no way of knowing what he would have done, only what he says he will do. What he says he'll do is bring in support from around the world (meaning the UN more than likely) this would mean making more than a few consessions to the UN.

Exactly.
 

Socreges

Banned
max_cool said:
Either way we are going to be in Iraq for a long time to come. we are going to need help and many other western nations have openly condemed Bush and would be more willing to cooperate with Kerry, not because of Kerry himself but because of his party. As far as Kerry vs. Iraq... There is no way of knowing what he would have done, only what he says he will do. What he says he'll do is bring in support from around the world (meaning the UN more than likely) this would mean making more than a few consessions to the UN.
No doubt there. It's just that, given his constant talking point of Bush and Iraq, if he would have done no differently (though presently suggest otherwise), then I'm not convinced that he'll perform any differently in the future.
 

firex

Member
Of course he would have done differently if he were President. The reason he agreed is he believed the same lies the Bush administration told everyone else.

If Kerry had been President, we wouldn't even BE in Iraq right now.
 

Eric-GCA

Banned
"Oh, I don't know... promoting a world community, freedom, and peace."

Oh, where can I find the big rolleyes when I need it?

The UN is a useless organization that has no power in the world whatsoever.
 

Socreges

Banned
And what exactly is the UN good for again? They can't even come to agreement on Sudan, what are they gonna accomplish in Iraq?
Uh, the Security Council passed the resolution yesterday. Compromises were made to appease Russia and China, but at least something is being done.

For all of the United Nation's shortcomings, it is such a necessary entity.
The UN is a useless organization that has no power in the world whatsoever.
How much do you actually know about the UN? Or what they've done? Jesus...
The reason he agreed is he believed the same lies the Bush administration told everyone else.
You're suggesting that it was, in fact, not poor intelligence by the CIA, but lies by the Bush administration (or a mixture of both). Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but can you support that?
 

firex

Member
Oh, it was poor intelligence. But I don't doubt the Bush administration both forced the CIA to come up with something - anything - and that they twisted whatever could be found to make it as impendingly horrible as possible.
 

Socreges

Banned
firex said:
Oh, it was poor intelligence. But I don't doubt the Bush administration both forced the CIA to come up with something - anything - and that they twisted whatever could be found to make it as impendingly horrible as possible.
I suspect the same. Just be careful in going around and blankly stating theories like that.
 
Socreges said:
You're suggesting that it was, in fact, not poor intelligence by the CIA, but lies by the Bush administration. Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but can you support that?

I'll suggest that. I'd think Bush would be defending his actions more, rather than acting like America's godsend in the Middle East, if that was the case. If it was such horrible intelligence, you know it was if you have read the 9/11 commisson's report, you'd have to be a fucking moron to run with it. Bush is. Bush did.
 

Crag Dweller

aka kindbudmaster
Cerebral Palsy said:
I'll suggest that. I'd think Bush would be defending his actions more, rather than acting like America's godsend in the Middle East, if that was the case. If it was such horrible intelligence, you know it was if you have read the 9/11 commisson's report, you'd have to be a fucking moron to run with it. Bush is. Bush did.

I just got done reading the report. What part are you talking about? The only section that talks about Iraq that I remember was 10.3. Is there something else in the report that your referencing?
 

Saturnman

Banned
Socreges said:
Canada/US relations,

Though on the world stage, Kerry would be an improvement over Bush, there is a shadow to Kerry from a Canadian perspective: He's a protectionist and has vowed to revise a variety of trade agreements in his first months in office and that would affect Canada negatively considering the number of trade disputes between both countries.
 

effzee

Member
the UN repeatedly claimed they found nothing.....the told us all there was nothing and that they should be given more time to find it. in light of this bush told us "no UN is inept for this task...sadam has them...he is an imminent threat.....and we have to go to war now". yes it was the shitty intelligence of the CIA but its also how u define the info then. u have the UN saying they found nothing and the CIA saying they are sure of it. what do u do? this is the place kerry would have been...and we dont know what he would have done but im sure he wouldnt have manipulated the info into a "imminent threat" that we have to stop now. whent he UN asked for more time we told them no.


kerry voted for the war after bush convinced him. many people did. i mean the UN is always the scapegoat when we want to do something and they oppose, and im not saying the UN is always right either, but the nation was easily convinced that sadam was such a threat. CIA did make a mistake but its also how u interpret the intelligence.
 

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
To say that Bush was fed bad intelligence is retarded.

The CIA sent a former US diplomat to Africa (former diplomat to Iraq, appointed by Bush's daddy and had been a republican up until all of this unfolded) to investigate the possibility that yellow cake Uranium could be smuggled from the country. He came back and said that there was no possibility that it could be done, and that Iraq had not infact attempted to aquire any from Africa.

Bush turned around, and in the state of the union adress said that Iraq had tried to aquire uranium from Africa.

When the former diplomat went to the press to say it was BS, someone inside the whitehose (Rove more than likely) leaked his wifes name, who was at the time an undercover CIA operative.

I dont completely agree with Kerry's stance on Iraq.. however we were all fed bad intelligence. Either the president was duped along with the rest of us, or the president misled the American people. In scenario A, neither Kerry nor the president can be held responsible for initially oking the war. In scenario B our president is a liar.
 

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
Shouldn't we be more concerned about Sudan than political hunches?

This really goes for both sides. I'm an independent, and I'm neutral on the whole thing because I don't think I, and a majority of people, know enough to make a real judgement.

But I do know that people are dieing in Sudan, and the UN is dancing around technicalities.
 

Phoenix

Member
Eric-GCA said:
And what exactly is the UN good for again? They can't even come to agreement on Sudan, what are they gonna accomplish in Iraq?

The flaw in this line of logic which was used during the Iraq-war situation at the UN. Its a good thing when there are a lot of people sitting there disagreeing because that means that people are bringing up large numbers of options and interests and when they DO agree, they will all be agreeing to do something in a unified manner. In ALL things this is good.
 
Kindbudmaster said:
I just got done reading the report. What part are you talking about? The only section that talks about Iraq that I remember was 10.3. Is there something else in the report that your referencing?

*cough* Al Qaeda and Saddamn connection *cough* Bush fighting terrorism on our homeland, so we better attack Iraq! No no no, lets not go into many of the worse problem states of the Middle East, cause my daddy started it in Iraq and I'm here to finish it.. At best, even if Bush was right about the "weapons of mass destruction," all we did was move them into the hands of another Middle East country who poses a greater threat to us. Go Bush.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Phoenix said:
The flaw in this line of logic which was used during the Iraq-war situation at the UN. Its a good thing when there are a lot of people sitting there disagreeing because that means that people are bringing up large numbers of options and interests and when they DO agree, they will all be agreeing to do something in a unified manner. In ALL things this is good.
Even when it leads to massive delays in doing something about mass murders and rapes in Sudan?

The UN has been slow to react to almost every situation the past couple decades. All that Milosevic crap? Both the UN and NATO avoided doing anything until the US went in on its own. Rwanda? The UN was freakin' there and had their heads so far up their asses that they didn't notice whole chunks of the population get chopped to death by machete, and had denied sending more troops and aid earlier when local authorities warned of such possibilities.

Debate among a large number of people is good, but at some point something has to be done. The UN actively avoids ever doing anything, and usually it's the most neglected portions of the world that suffer even further. This Iraq business is the exception that proves the rule.
 
It doesn't matter whether or not Clinton believed he may have had WMD's. You can't pick and choose what you are willing to believe from Richard Clarke, for him to say Bush was more interested in Iraq than making Al Qaeda the main focus should be enough for say, he's needs to be questioned on why he pushed so hard to go to Iraq.

Not to long I watched segment on PBS about the road to Iraq, in the segment suprisingly, someone close to Bush was against the war in Iraq. Colin Powell of all people was against this action but obviously it is not his decision.

Another thing you have to ask yourself is, after Intelligence is gathered and its sent to the White House, was the Intelligence cooked a little to make it seem more threatning to support the push for war. What I have learned about politics and certain politicians is they like to use black markers alot so they can cover up certain sections they may hamper there cause.

I wonder why Bush wouldn't support California during its energy crisis, I guess its because of his administration Enron connections.

As for Kerry and his international policies and Iraq, I believe his goal is to reveal them during the debates.
 

effzee

Member
Dan said:
Even when it leads to massive delays in doing something about mass murders and rapes in Sudan?

The UN has been slow to react to almost every situation the past couple decades. All that Milosevic crap? Both the UN and NATO avoided doing anything until the US went in on its own. Rwanda? The UN was freakin' there and had their heads so far up their asses that they didn't notice whole chunks of the population get chopped to death by machete, and had denied sending more troops and aid earlier when local authorities warned of such possibilities.

Debate among a large number of people is good, but at some point something has to be done. The UN actively avoids ever doing anything, and usually it's the most neglected portions of the world that suffer even further. This Iraq business is the exception that proves the rule.


oh i agree, and i already mentioned that the UN isnt perfect. but the case in IRAQ..over how the weapons was tailor made for a body like the UN.

as was the case with iraq and the BS reason of humanitariums that the US used once the whole WMD shit fell apart, no one helps anyone unless its beneficial.
 

Xenon

Member
Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry observed on Oct. 9, 2002: "It would be naive to the point of grave danger not to believe that, left to his own devices, Saddam Hussein will provoke, misjudge or stumble into a future, more dangerous confrontation with the civilized world .... He has supported and harbored terrorist groups, particularly radical Palestinian groups such as Abu Nidal, and he has given money to families of suicide murderers in Israel .... We should not go to war because these things are in his past, but we should be prepared to go to war because of what they tell us about the future. "

veddddy interesting
 

Phoenix

Member
Dan said:
Even when it leads to massive delays in doing something about mass murders and rapes in Sudan?

Come on, lets be realistic. This isn't something brand new, its been going on for a long time and the problems are NEVER as simple as they seem. I would love to see them stopped and stopped tomorrow, but I also realize that the manner in which you do that isn't simple. Do you drop in UN forces? Will that solve the problem? How do you get someone to pay for that? What is the cause of the problem? If its cultural will military forces be effective at all since eventually you'll have to take them out. Again, while identifying a problem and providing a solution may be simple sitting here on GAF - problems are NEVER as simple as they seem.

Yes - sooner or later SOMETHING needs to be done, but sometimes the solution is something that isn't ideal. That's just the way of things, and finding that non ideal solution takes time.

If you think that its simple - list out your solution step by step, who needs to get involved, how its going to work, how the governments in the region need to change, how you make sure the situation remains stable, etc.
 
We must police the world. And Saddam is our present day Hitler compared to other dictators in the world. Obviously we invaded Iraq for this reason. Not oil, or making money off of the reconstruction of Iraq. Never.
 

Crag Dweller

aka kindbudmaster
Here is what is in the 9/11 report about Iraq that I could find. Nothing damning as far as I can tell. Any president would put Iraq on the list as possible suspects at the time I would think. However, It's evident to me that the people that had his ear thought that Iraq was guilty somehow but this report doesn't go into that in any detail.



10.3 “PHASE TWO”AND THE QUESTION OF IRAQ
President Bush had wondered immediately after the attack whether Saddam
Hussein’s regime might have had a hand in it. Iraq had been an enemy of the
United States for 11 years, and was the only place in the world where the
United States was engaged in ongoing combat operations. As a former pilot,
the President was struck by the apparent sophistication of the operation and
some of the piloting, especially Hanjour’s high-speed dive into the Pentagon.
He told us he recalled Iraqi support for Palestinian suicide terrorists as well.
Speculating about other possible states that could be involved, the President
told us he also thought about Iran.

Clarke has written that on the evening of September 12,President Bush told
him and some of his staff to explore possible Iraqi links to 9/11. “See if Saddam
did this,” Clarke recalls the President telling them.“See if he’s linked in any
way.”60 While he believed the details of Clarke’s account to be incorrect, President
Bush acknowledged that he might well have spoken to Clarke at some
point, asking him about Iraq.

Responding to a presidential tasking, Clarke’s office sent a memo to Rice
on September 18, titled “Survey of Intelligence Information on Any Iraq
Involvement in the September 11 Attacks.” Rice’s chief staffer on Afghanistan,
Zalmay Khalilzad, concurred in its conclusion that only some anecdotal evidence
linked Iraq to al Qaeda.The memo found no “compelling case” that Iraq
had either planned or perpetrated the attacks. It passed along a few foreign
intelligence reports, including the Czech report alleging an April 2001 Prague
meeting between Atta and an Iraqi intelligence officer (discussed in chapter 7)
and a Polish report that personnel at the headquarters of Iraqi intelligence in
Baghdad were told before September 11 to go on the streets to gauge crowd
reaction to an unspecified event. Arguing that the case for links between Iraq
and al Qaeda was weak, the memo pointed out that Bin Ladin resented the
secularism of Saddam Hussein’s regime. Finally, the memo said, there was no
confirmed reporting on Saddam cooperating with Bin Ladin on unconventional
weapons.

On the afternoon of 9/11, according to contemporaneous notes, Secretary
Rumsfeld instructed General Myers to obtain quickly as much information as
possible.The notes indicate that he also told Myers that he was not simply interested
in striking empty training sites.He thought the U.S. response should consider
a wide range of options and possibilities. The secretary said his instinct
was to hit Saddam Hussein at the same time—not only Bin Ladin. Secretary
Rumsfeld later explained that at the time, he had been considering either one
of them, or perhaps someone else, as the responsible party.

According to Rice, the issue of what, if anything, to do about Iraq was really
engaged at Camp David.Briefing papers on Iraq, along with many others,were
in briefing materials for the participants. Rice told us the administration was
concerned that Iraq would take advantage of the 9/11 attacks. She recalled that
in the first Camp David session chaired by the President, Rumsfeld asked what
the administration should do about Iraq.Deputy SecretaryWolfowitz made the
case for striking Iraq during “this round” of the war on terrorism.
A Defense Department paper for the Camp David briefing book on the
strategic concept for the war on terrorism specified three priority targets for
initial action: al Qaeda, theTaliban, and Iraq. It argued that of the three, al Qaeda
and Iraq posed a strategic threat to the United States. Iraq’s long-standing
involvement in terrorism was cited, along with its interest in weapons of mass
destruction.

Secretary Powell recalled that Wolfowitz—not Rumsfeld—argued that Iraq
was ultimately the source of the terrorist problem and should therefore be
attacked.66 Powell said that Wolfowitz was not able to justify his belief that Iraq
was behind 9/11. “Paul was always of the view that Iraq was a problem that
had to be dealt with,” Powell told us.“And he saw this as one way of using this
event as a way to deal with the Iraq problem.” Powell said that President Bush
did not give Wolfowitz’s argument “much weight.”67 Though continuing to
worry about Iraq in the following week, Powell said, President Bush saw
Afghanistan as the priority.

President Bush told Bob Woodward that the decision not to invade Iraq was
made at the morning session on September 15. Iraq was not even on the table
during the September 15 afternoon session, which dealt solely with
Afghanistan. Rice said that when President Bush called her on Sunday, September
16, he said the focus would be on Afghanistan, although he still wanted
plans for Iraq should the country take some action or the administration eventually
determine that it had been involved in the 9/11 attacks.
At the September 17 NSC meeting, there was some further discussion of
“phase two” of the war on terrorism. President Bush ordered the Defense
Department to be ready to deal with Iraq if Baghdad acted against U.S. interests,
with plans to include possibly occupying Iraqi oil fields.
Within the Pentagon, Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz continued to press the
case for dealing with Iraq. Writing to Rumsfeld on September 17 in a memo
headlined “Preventing More Events,”he argued that if there was even a 10 percent
chance that Saddam Hussein was behind the 9/11 attack, maximum pri-
ority should be placed on eliminating that threat.Wolfowitz contended that
the odds were “far more” than 1 in 10, citing Saddam’s praise for the attack, his
long record of involvement in terrorism, and theories that Ramzi Yousef was
an Iraqi agent and Iraq was behind the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center.

The next day, Wolfowitz renewed the argument, writing to Rumsfeld
about the interest of Yousef ’s co-conspirator in the 1995 Manila air plot in
crashing an explosives-laden plane into CIA headquarters, and about information
from a foreign government regarding Iraqis’ involvement in the attempted
hijacking of a Gulf Air flight. Given this background, he wondered why so little
thought had been devoted to the danger of suicide pilots, seeing a “failure
of imagination” and a mind-set that dismissed possibilities.
On September 19, Rumsfeld offered several thoughts for his commanders
as they worked on their contingency plans.Though he emphasized the worldwide
nature of the conflict, the references to specific enemies or regions named
only the Taliban, al Qaeda, and Afghanistan. Shelton told us the administration
reviewed all the Pentagon’s war plans and challenged certain assumptions
underlying them, as any prudent organization or leader should do.
General Tommy Franks, the commanding general of Central Command,
recalled receiving Rumsfeld’s guidance that each regional commander should
assess what these plans meant for his area of responsibility. He knew he would
soon be striking the Taliban and al Qaeda in Afghanistan. But, he told us, he
now wondered how that action was connected to what might need to be done
in Somalia,Yemen, or Iraq.

On September 20, President Bush met with British Prime Minister Tony
Blair, and the two leaders discussed the global conflict ahead.When Blair asked
about Iraq, the President replied that Iraq was not the immediate problem.
Some members of his administration, he commented, had expressed a different
view, but he was the one responsible for making the decisions.
Franks told us that he was pushing independently to do more robust planning
on military responses in Iraq during the summer before 9/11—a request
President Bush denied, arguing that the time was not right. (CENTCOM also
began dusting off plans for a full invasion of Iraq during this period, Franks
said.) The CENTCOM commander told us he renewed his appeal for further
military planning to respond to Iraqi moves shortly after 9/11, both because
he personally felt that Iraq and al Qaeda might be engaged in some form of
collusion and because he worried that Saddam might take advantage of the
attacks to move against his internal enemies in the northern or southern parts
of Iraq, where the United States was flying regular missions to enforce Iraqi
no-fly zones. Franks said that President Bush again turned down the request.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
It's not simple, but I'm not a brilliant world planner who gets paid all day to think of how to solve this stuff. All I know is that the UNITED NATIONS, a 60 year old organization made to foster peace throughout the world, does little of it in actuality. The United Nations has become a poor excuse of everything it was created to be. Anyone that throws their full faith in an organization that ignores an entire continent time and time again is just silly. The UN has largely been hijacked by the permanent members of the Security Council. If your country has problems but isn't of interest to those five nations, you're screwed. It's almost a fact at this point.

This isn't something brand new, its been going on for a long time
I'm sure the people in Sudan have adjusted to the violence there as well as the powerful industrialized world has. I'm sure they take great comfort in knowing that the rest of the world doesn't give a shit, hasn't given a shit, and won't give a shit.
 

Xenon

Member
We must police the world. And Saddam is our present day Hitler compared to other dictators in the world. Obviously we invaded Iraq for this reason. Not oil, or making money off of the reconstruction of Iraq. Never.


Considering the main opponents in the UN against the war had more to gain/lose as far as oil is concerned, that statement is pretty weak. But hey, that blood for oil thing just never gets old.
 
StoOgE said:
The CIA sent a former US diplomat to Africa (former diplomat to Iraq, appointed by Bush's daddy and had been a republican up until all of this unfolded) to investigate the possibility that yellow cake Uranium could be smuggled from the country. He came back and said that there was no possibility that it could be done, and that Iraq had not infact attempted to aquire any from Africa.

Bush turned around, and in the state of the union adress said that Iraq had tried to aquire uranium from Africa.

When the former diplomat went to the press to say it was BS, someone inside the whitehose (Rove more than likely) leaked his wifes name, who was at the time an undercover CIA operative.

He concluded that they didn't acquire any, but had no proof that they didn't try. Basically he seems to have overstepped his jurisdiction with his counterclaims. More can be read about that here: http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh072304.shtml

(By the way, thanks to whoever it was that referenced the Daily Howler a few weeks back; very informative stuff.)
 
Xenon said:
Considering the main opponents in the UN against the war had more to gain/lose as far as oil is concerned, that statement is pretty weak.

Yeah, what does the UN have to do with Bush again? Bush didn't give a fuck what the UN had to say about Iraq, and went in regardless.


But hey, that blood for oil thing just never gets old.

Wow, I never really thought about it... But you're right. It is fun.
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
“Paul was always of the view that Iraq was a problem that
had to be dealt with,” Powell told us.“And he saw this as one way of using this
event as a way to deal with the Iraq problem.”

.... ???
 

Xenon

Member
Yeah, what does the UN have to do with Bush? Bush didn't give a fuck what the U.N. had to say about Iraq, and went in regardless.


Actually Bush went to the UN and was told by French that they would not commit to any use of force no matter what. This not only gave Saddam false hope but it enabled Bush to go around the UN because they were obviously being unreasonable. Had France been more open to the use of force to enforce the treaty Bush may have not received the support to go ahead without the UN. The US is not the only culpable party in this mess. Keeping a dictator locked in a cage while depressing his people did absolutely no good. We all know why France and Russia didn't want things to change. There was no sign that Saddam was going to change. So I guess we should have just left them there in our own little dictator ant farm. Saddam was contained. Why should we care?
 

Phoenix

Member
Dan said:
It's not simple, but I'm not a brilliant world planner who gets paid all day to think of how to solve this stuff. All I know is that the UNITED NATIONS, a 60 year old organization made to foster peace throughout the world, does little of it in actuality. The United Nations has become a poor excuse of everything it was created to be. Anyone that throws their full faith in an organization that ignores an entire continent time and time again is just silly. The UN has largely been hijacked by the permanent members of the Security Council. If your country has problems but isn't of interest to those five nations, you're screwed. It's almost a fact at this point.

Absolutely true. I will agree with this 100%. If the perm. members don't want something to happen, its not going to happen through Veto. That's not to say that the UN as a whole can't solve a problem - just that there are some countries who have the ability to say 'nah doesn't work for me'. But the thing is, its no different than any of the problems we have in the US government or any other government. For example, we've been talking about health care for decades but yet we've made absolutely no serious progress on the problem. Its not like there aren't a lot of people who want to solve the problem, but there are people all over who complicate the issue in congress and effectively veto any meaningul change. Any one of them can't really solve the problem, and together they're taking a hell of a long time to solve it, but when something FINALLY happens - it will be law that has to be followed.

Unfortunately its just the way of things. It sucks... it sucks even more when people are being ethnically cleansed, but this is a tough problem.
 

Phoenix

Member
Xenon said:
Actually Bush went to the UN and was told by French that they would not commit to any use of force no matter what. This not only gave Saddam false hope but it enabled Bush to go around the UN because they were obviously being unreasonable. Had France been more open to the use of force to enforce the treaty Bush may have not received the support to go ahead without the UN. The US is not the only culpable party in this mess. Keeping a dictator locked in a cage while depressing his people did absolutely no good. We all know why France and Russia didn't want things to change. There was no sign that Saddam was going to change. So I guess we should have just left them there in our own little dictator ant farm. Saddam was contained. Why should we care?

That's not quite accurate. They vowed that they would not accept and UN resolution that made the use of force automatic for a violation of the resolution.
 
Xenon said:
Actually Bush went to the UN and was told by French that they would not commit to any use of force not matter what. This not only gave Saddam false hope but it enabled Bush to go around the UN because they were obviously being unreasonable.

How exactly was the UN unreasonable? You either oppose the war or don't. Many nations had reasoning to oppose the war. Which one of Bush's reasons to invade Iraq came to fruition. Yeah, I'm only asking for one.


Had France been more open to the use of force to enforce the treaty Bush may have not received the support to go ahead without the UN.

Hahahaha, what? Bush made it clear he was going in with the UN or not. Nothing the UN said held any weight with Bush, so playing the "Well if France did this" game doesn't really work here. France opposing, or merely tagging along with the U.S. would have lead to the same result. War. My whole fucking point is, WE SHOULDN'T BE IN IRAQ AT ALL.

France agrees to use force to enforce the treaty = U.S. in Iraq, and more dead (French) soldiers in a pointless more.

France disagrees = U.S. in Iraq, and what? NO WAY!? Lots of dead soldiers over a pointless war.


The US is not the only culpable party in this mess. Keeping a dictator locked in a cage while depressing his people did absolutely no good. We all know why France and Russia didn't want things to change. There was no sign that Saddam was going to change. So I guess we should have just left them there in our own little dictator ant farm. Saddam was contained. Why should we care?

Yes, and there is also no sign that other, much worse, dictators in this world are going to change. Our Dictator Ant Farm™ is fucking overflowing, and we chose to squash the little ant while ignoring larger threats.
 

Xenon

Member
That's not quite accurate. They vowed that they would not accept and UN resolution that made the use of force automatic for a violation of the resolution.

Ok, but in essence it would be the same. It was just another stall. Ten years had gone by. How long would we wait until action was deemed necessary? Even Blix said that Saddam had violated the treaty.


The Wall Street Journal, 20 January 2003
STOCKHOLM -- Has Hans Blix suddenly grown a backbone? Last week, the Swedish diplomat and chief U.N. weapons inspector told reporters that it's "clear" Iraq has "violated the bans of the United Nations in terms of imports." Western journalists have reported that those imports include missile parts, but Mr. Blix says it is not clear at this time whether they are related to weapons of mass destruction.


What about when Clinton Bombed Iraq in the late 90's? Have we just forgotten about that?

When is enough, enough?
 

Socreges

Banned
For the UN, it's a matter of self-interest over compassion. You've got the permanent members who flex a great deal of power and unless they are in some way affected, such as outrage on the domestic front, they will never act. Innocent lives are unfortunately a relatively small factor. For instance, certain countries have oil interests in Sudan; therefore they are reluctant to rush in and provide relief. Yet the incident is beginning to receive worldwide attention, so they've still taken some action.

If the UN is going to exist, which [I feel] is necessary, should we expect it to function only for the good of all peoples, rather than particular states? Is that realistic? Individuals must make decisions to sacrifice their own soldiers' lives and their state's money in order to save people whose consequences will never reach the powerful states. I'm not agreeing with what they do. But in their position, with everything that they deal with, I think compassion inevitably loses out. Maybe it's a result of a broken international community, but I'm not so sure that we can hope for any better. People had better just continue educating themselves and pressuring governments and organizations to deal with matters like Sudan.
 

Xenon

Member
How exactly was the UN unreasonable? You either oppose the war or don't. Many nations had reasoning to oppose the war. Which one of Bush's reasons to invade Iraq came to fruition. Yeah, I'm only asking for one.


I'll give you two

Funding terrorism by financially rewarding the families of terrorist bombers.

Failing to comply with the UN resolutions they signed due to losing a war THEY started.

Hahahaha, what? Bush made it clear he was going in with the UN or not.

I disagree. I think he made it clear that if things didn't change drastically that we would go in.


WE SHOULDN'T BE IN IRAQ AT ALL.

You're right... To bad they started a war that brought us there. I do not want to wait for the shit to hit the fan again to go back. I think of this war as finishing what should have been done 10 years ago.

Yes, and there is also no sign that other, much worse, dictators in this world are going to change. Our Dictator Ant Farm™ is fucking overflowing, and we chose to squash the little ant while ignoring larger threats.

Right now Iraq is in the middle of an area that houses the biggest threat to the US. That makes it the most important one. Why would N Korea attack us? Bragging rights =P If they did sell arms to terrorists, they'd be a grease spot and they know it. Its a shakedown for more US aid and a transparent one at that.
 

Crag Dweller

aka kindbudmaster
Hahahaha, what? Bush made it clear he was going in with the UN or not. Nothing the UN said held any weight with Bush, so playing the "Well if France did this" game doesn't really work here. France opposing, or merely tagging along with the U.S. would have lead to the same result. War. My whole fucking point is, WE SHOULDN'T BE IN IRAQ AT ALL.

I agree. The U.S. posture going in was that we were going no matter what. The U.N. however should of been more prepared for that. I don't think there was any way that they could stop the U.S., short of dropping troops in to fight against the U.S. in Iraq, but they could of played a more active role in the country after the main part of ther war was over, for the common good of the people of Iraq(and the world for that matter, the last thing the world needs is more people that hate the U.S.).

As far as the statement that "WE SHOULDN'T BE IN IRAQ AT ALL." the fact is that we are in Iraq, leaving now would not only throw the country into more turmoil but would have the added problem of being another unchecked breeding gound of radical terrorist.
 
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