I agree with everything here. But it's hard to compare lighting in different TOD scenarios. I personally doubt that the lighting was downgraded, it's just different. The overcast at dawn was never a good way to show off phenomenal lighting anyway. While in the E3 teaser, everything in the scene was lit by moonlight and Drake was wet, making him look "better" despite both models being very similar. Regarding textures, I agree that some rock textures look only "good" but most other textures look very high res.
IGN: Nathan Drake will use identical model in cutscene and gameplay.
- Thread starter Khalifa Jayy
- Start date
When I look at gamermans picture, although very rough you can see how even at that time of day, the lighting could be drastically improved.
I'm sure this is just the base model of what they are doing, I'm really sure most of the things people have mentioned in this thread will be improved significantly.
But for now, regardless of scale The Order is still the best looking console game (arguably game but thats subjective I guess)
Well, with proper optimization and adequate time and resources, anything can be improved significantly.
I'm just saying we can't tell for sure that the lighting was downgraded when we don't have like for like footages. But I respect your opinion if you think the lighting does not look as complex as in the E3 teaser.
On the other hand, The Order 1886 may look better in some aspects now but the game is two months from release. Uncharted 4 is still at least 10 months away. I have no doubts Naughty God will hit a stable 60FPS and make the game look better.
I agree and I also think things can be improved, but you do realize the second picture is a midnight shot "color corrected" to look like day time? Lighting during the day and during the night is still somewhat different, especially dawn, when the sun is still rising.
Edit:
Also regarding downgrades overall with this game. Keep in mind this is one of Sony's franchises where they wanna show off, what the PS4 can do and downgrading something significantly... especially after all that Watch_Dogs and Unity drama... Sony is smart enough to not follow suit with one of their exclusive titles. In other words they aswell believe that Naughty Dog will deliver what they promised.
velociraptor
Junior Member
I respectfully disagree. I'm a massive fan of all of ND's games but I'm honestly just not seeing it for Uncharted 4. It just doesn't look 'that impressive'.
Well, then, even if you have watched the Gamersyde video and still think it's not "that impressive", have it your way, bud.
This always depends to what you compare somthing, but it's always subjective aswell.
But there still is a significantly leap between UC3 and UC4. I personally feel that there is even quite the difference between TLOU:R and UC4.
I also think that it looks notably better than KZ:SF(not by too much though, from what we have seen so far) and Infamous (well one is an open world game to be fair).
Driveclub just looks insane and it definitely is in the same league as UC4 in my eyes.
But like I said... it is all subjective though.
velociraptor
Junior Member
Are there any comparison videos out? They're always useful to remind how bad last gen games actually looked.
gamerMan
Member
You are correct the image was created by shifting the color space as the Grand Theft auto developer was talking about. Even with just a shift in the RGB values it is easy to see that the lighting on Drake is intense and not just flat ambient light. Look at the variations in the lighting which is not present in the gameplay footage.
To me it looks like the E3 teaser is using much more complex lighting. It is more than just time of day and the sun's position. In the E3 teaser, Drake is lit by the diffuse bounce lighting in the scene.(much more complex) In the gameplay footage, he is lit by simple ambient lighting which results in flatter and consistent lighting over the model. Go back and play the Last Of Us to see what I am talking about . The model isn't lit by the light in the game world. It is lit separately with just ambient light.
It is easy to see this when watching the gamershyde video. Look at how the Drake model is lit as it passes over the shadowed areas and bright areas of the map. The lighting all over the model is consistent with very little variation in lighting as you would get with diffuse lighting. He is lit with just ambient light.
Now go back and watch the E3 teaser. Look at the way the model is lit as he passes through the different areas. He is lit by the diffuse bounce lighting in the world.
In order to demonstrate the difference in ambient and diffuse lighting, here I have lit an untextured white sphere with ambient and diffuse lighting. I hope this makes it more clear. With just ambient light, you get very little difference in the lighting across the model. With diffuse lighting, you can see the variation in lighting across the model. Just remember Drake is textured so you just want to look at the lighting not the texture.
This is exactly what I am talking about. The pics you posted show Drake lit by a diffuse point light at the spot of his muzzle flash. I wish realtime dynamic lighting was present all over the map not just when his gun fires. Instead, Drake is lit with just directional ambient light, resulting a flat consistent look all over the model.
I don't like "downgraded," it gives the wrong connotation. I would call it scaled back. From a technical point of view, the game uses much simpler lighting than the E3 teaser. The models are exactly the same, the lighting is not. The game is still early, so we will see if they will be able to equal the lighting in the E3 trailer in the cutscenes or gameplay.
gamerMan
Member
Real-time rendered in game. This is not CGI or pre-render, which means all the shading features for skin, hair, eyes need to be written in code.
The shader artist at Naughty Dog, Yibing Jiang, opened an artstation http://www.artstation.com/artwork/character-shading-for-nathan-drake-uncharted-4.
This gives me hope that Naughty Dog can tweak the lighting in the game to include more secondary illumination to give the lighting more depth during gameplay like the E3 teaser.
lukeskymac
Member
There's some Order stuff there too. Interesting.
I had no idea someone from Pixar worked on the shading for The Order and now for Uncharted 4. That's cool.
I hope VFX_Veteran sees this. He was specifically asking which shader methods they were using.
2015 is all we know for sure. I doubt it's coming before Fall.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
I would say expect Nov 15 as the release date.
Well they clearly are swapping models between cutscene and gameplay in the PSX build.
I've never really understood this whole 'we're not swapping the models between cutscene and gameplay' thing. Please do! Save the polygon budget for things I'll actually notice when I'm playing.
I've never really understood this whole 'we're not swapping the models between cutscene and gameplay' thing. Please do! Save the polygon budget for things I'll actually notice when I'm playing.
Wow, thank you for being so informative and actually taking time and effort to explain instead of just leaving comments without elaborating. From your post, it seems you know a lot more about ambient and diffuse lighting than I do. Long story short, you think the models are exactly the same but the lighting is simpler? Again, could this be because of the overcast at dawn? And gun fire is dynamic lighting with diffusion on Drake? Please explain it to me.
You are correct the image was created by shifting the color space as the Grand Theft auto developer was talking about. Even with just a shift in the RGB values it is easy to see that the lighting on Drake is intense and not just flat ambient light. Look at the variations in the lighting which is not present in the gameplay footage.
To me it looks like the E3 teaser is using much more complex lighting. It is more than just time of day and the sun's position. In the E3 teaser, Drake is lit by the diffuse bounce lighting in the scene.(much more complex) In the gameplay footage, he is lit by simple ambient lighting which results in flatter and consistent lighting over the model. Go back and play the Last Of Us to see what I am talking about . The model isn't lit by the light in the game world. It is lit separately with just ambient light.
It is easy to see this when watching the gamershyde video. Look at how the Drake model is lit as it passes over the shadowed areas and bright areas of the map. The lighting all over the model is consistent with very little variation in lighting as you would get with diffuse lighting. He is lit with just ambient light.
Now go back and watch the E3 teaser. Look at the way the model is lit as he passes through the different areas. He is lit by the diffuse bounce lighting in the world.
In order to demonstrate the difference in ambient and diffuse lighting, here I have lit an untextured white sphere with ambient and diffuse lighting. I hope this makes it more clear. With just ambient light, you get very little difference in the lighting across the model. With diffuse lighting, you can see the variation in lighting across the model. Just remember Drake is textured so you just want to look at the lighting not the texture.
This is exactly what I am talking about. The pics you posted show Drake lit by a diffuse point light at the spot of his muzzle flash. I wish realtime dynamic lighting was present all over the map not just when his gun fires. Instead, Drake is lit with just directional ambient light, resulting a flat consistent look all over the model.
I don't like "downgraded," it gives the wrong connotation. I would call it scaled back. From a technical point of view, the game uses much simpler lighting than the E3 teaser. The models are exactly the same, the lighting is not. The game is still early, so we will see if they will be able to equal the lighting in the E3 trailer in the cutscenes or gameplay.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Well as you said. That's he PSX build.
I don't understand people's seemingly stubborn view that the game is not a work in progress.
We have no reason to think that the E3 trailer isn't a realtime cutscene from the game that will be in the final code and looking the same or better.
If ND came out and said, "Uncharted 4 will have death animations". No one would be up in arms saying "but the PSX demo didn't!!!"
So why when they say the game looks like the E3 build, or that they are using cutscene models in gameplay, do we question them?
As much I want him to see this as well, unfortunately he's been banned. On the bright side, we won't be seeing him downplaying PS4 exclusives (graphics-wise) for a while.
I think "not swapping models" means there is no difference between cutscene and gameplay models in close ups. It'd be unwise for ND not to have LOD transitions on Drake since he is usually far away from the camera and we see his back most of the time.
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
I think Tearaway Unfolded's better looking than both The Order and Uncharted 4.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
MGS2 has better looking bugs than Telltale games.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Just to further illustrate the impact of ToD.
The Halo 3 Announcement Trailer
Everyone thought the MC looked amazing.
Turns out that MC model didn't fair well in gameplay lighting situations. As evidenced by this screenshot.
It was so bad in fact, Bungie redid the model in favor of something that would look good in the variety of lighting situations their lighting tech was capable of.*
*Yes there were other downgrades with Halo 3 like LoD quality, and Real time Visor Reflections, but that's not what I am discussing.
Again, in conjunction with Crysis ToD art examples from earlier, this shows just how big of an impact the time of day can have with the same lighting system and assets in place.
The Halo 3 Announcement Trailer
Everyone thought the MC looked amazing.
Turns out that MC model didn't fair well in gameplay lighting situations. As evidenced by this screenshot.
It was so bad in fact, Bungie redid the model in favor of something that would look good in the variety of lighting situations their lighting tech was capable of.*
*Yes there were other downgrades with Halo 3 like LoD quality, and Real time Visor Reflections, but that's not what I am discussing.
Again, in conjunction with Crysis ToD art examples from earlier, this shows just how big of an impact the time of day can have with the same lighting system and assets in place.
Now, I don't play or follow the Halo series at all, but wasn't Halo 3's announcement trailer a pre-rendered CGI video? I may be completely mistaken so someone please correct me if I'm wrong
Off topic, but damn! Comparing a game like Halo 3 to Killzone Shadow Fall really shows the the huge generational leap!
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
No it was realtime in engine. Much like the UC4 trailer. Starry Night Halo 3 Super Bowl ad was CGI.
Ok, I did some research and you're right. It was indeed real-time in-engine. It's amazing how many graphical features had to be removed from the final product then and to top it off, it was sub 720p. But we can all agree that Naughty Dog is a league above Bungie when it comes to pushing the hardware and I have faith that ND will undoubted reach 60FPS in UC4 and the final product will look even better than the PSX demo.
You are correct the image was created by shifting the color space as the Grand Theft auto developer was talking about. Even with just a shift in the RGB values it is easy to see that the lighting on Drake is intense and not just flat ambient light. Look at the variations in the lighting which is not present in the gameplay footage.
To me it looks like the E3 teaser is using much more complex lighting. It is more than just time of day and the sun's position. In the E3 teaser, Drake is lit by the diffuse bounce lighting in the scene.(much more complex) In the gameplay footage, he is lit by simple ambient lighting which results in flatter and consistent lighting over the model. Go back and play the Last Of Us to see what I am talking about . The model isn't lit by the light in the game world. It is lit separately with just ambient light.
It is easy to see this when watching the gamershyde video. Look at how the Drake model is lit as it passes over the shadowed areas and bright areas of the map. The lighting all over the model is consistent with very little variation in lighting as you would get with diffuse lighting. He is lit with just ambient light.
Now go back and watch the E3 teaser. Look at the way the model is lit as he passes through the different areas. He is lit by the diffuse bounce lighting in the world.
In order to demonstrate the difference in ambient and diffuse lighting, here I have lit an untextured white sphere with ambient and diffuse lighting. I hope this makes it more clear. With just ambient light, you get very little difference in the lighting across the model. With diffuse lighting, you can see the variation in lighting across the model. Just remember Drake is textured so you just want to look at the lighting not the texture.
This is exactly what I am talking about. The pics you posted show Drake lit by a diffuse point light at the spot of his muzzle flash. I wish realtime dynamic lighting was present all over the map not just when his gun fires. Instead, Drake is lit with just directional ambient light, resulting a flat consistent look all over the model.
I don't like "downgraded," it gives the wrong connotation. I would call it scaled back. From a technical point of view, the game uses much simpler lighting than the E3 teaser. The models are exactly the same, the lighting is not. The game is still early, so we will see if they will be able to equal the lighting in the E3 trailer in the cutscenes or gameplay.
Yeah, i'm pretty sure ND doesn't develop this kind of shaders just to use an ambiant light in the end.
Might as well go with a surface shader and call it a day if that was the case. They actually go over that particular point on their panel, explaining that lighting a cutscene allows them to get the perfect angles from where the lights come, whereas lighting gameplay is another challenge because they need the player to actually see what's going on.
Ambiant lighting is usually just used (with extreme parsimony) to get a tiny bit of color information in unlit areas.
Halo 3 was sub 720 due to the lighting. Since it was due to actual physical limitations of the hardware, Naughty Dog would have had to dumb down the lighting like Bungie and 343 did to get higher resolutions out of Reach and Halo 4.
Skel1ingt0n
I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
Hey BigTnaples, what industry do you work in?
This is probably the fifth or sixth thread where I've really enjoyed and appreciated your insight.
This is probably the fifth or sixth thread where I've really enjoyed and appreciated your insight.
Mr. PlayStation
Member
He was banned? When did this happen?
No idea. But if you look at his account, it says banned. He should have been banned long ago anyway. Every console thread he was in he downplayed the graphics of PS4 exclusives while praising AC:Unity to no end. Hell, he even moved on to another subject when proven wrong.
If a lighting system was too taxing for the hardware, the devs should have toned it down without sacrificing the overall look of the game too much. Native resolution is more important than graphical features IMHO. Halo 4 was native 720p while Halo 3 and Reach were sub 720p. 343 actually had to reduce the scale and tone down a few graphical features to get Halo 4 running at 720p.
I think that, too. If it's all a blurry, upscaled mess the best graphics features won't help it... well, to make it not a blurry, upscaled mess.
PLASTICA-MAN
Member
News: PS4 Exclusive Uncharted 4 To Feature A.I Within Multiplayer : http://www.thegamescabin.com/news-uncharted-4-multiplayer-may-non-human-players/
The series has had co-op modes since 2. Probably related to that.
Psychological Intellect
Banned
so either co-op or bots
For someone who who doesn't play or follow the Halo series at all, you sure do know quite a bit about it.
Not that I disagree. It was disappointing that 343 favored graphics so heavily and compromised the scale of the game compared to previous Halo titles.
I think it was more the reduction in graphical effects than scale, and I also think the reason Halo 4 didn't have big levels were simply because 343 didn't want it. Anyways Halo 3 was sub HD true, but imo that was one of the minor problems, the larger problem was lack of any AA, AF and little to no shadows. Plus what little shadows it had suffered from incredibly low draw distance. I still think that the HDR precision in Halo 3 was mostly unmatched last gen, and the night time missions of ODST would not have been that atmospheric without that lighting. Halo Reach gave up the dual buffer HDR of Halo 3 but what it ended up with was quite similar in look even though it wasn't actually as good, this did allowed them to increase the resolution though. Halo 4 on the other hand was 720P but it cut back on a considerable amount of things compared to Reach, a lot of post processing and shader effects were gone for example motion blur both camera and per object, SSAO and the lighting while fantastic looking was actually simpler than Halo Reach (Majority of the "cool" looking lights were not actually light but glows, now other games did it too but not to the extent of Halo 4).
I honestly do not think the resolution difference between Halo Reach and Halo 4 was anything considerable and anyone would have a hard time figuring out that one was 720P while the other wasn't. Most of the time when people talk about the blurriness of Halo Reach they talk of the ghosting caused from the temporal AA. I actually find Halo Reach to be a better looking game both technically and artistically than Halo 4 except the cutscenes.
Could be similar to how Uncharted 2 had events that interacted with the match like the tank coming through the Nepal match.
At the Last of Us multiplayer panel (PSX), they revealed that the initial prototype for multiplayer in that game was 1v1, with each person controlling a team of AI-based allies. You'd apparently issue orders to your AI teammates in an attempt to control the field but it ultimately proved too confusing for players and they were concerned that the artificial intelligence wouldn't be good enough.
It's possible that they managed to figure out a way to implement something like this in Uncharted 4 MP.
XxRampage07xX
Member
Co-op mode? Sounds great
while calling yourself technical artist, you post stuff like this
"It seems the big reason for the stellar visuals is because of the handholding and QTEs"
I can't take him seriously ever again! (not sure for the actual reason for ban)
I may not follow the Halo series, but I follow discussions about it and DF articles
Ok, man, thanks for the facts. Like I said, I don't play the Halo series at all so I have no idea what was cut/reduced in Halo 4 compared to Bungie's games to achieve a native 720P resolution. I only knew certain graphical features were cut/reduced but not the specific ones. I do know that the maps were smaller in general though.
LOL, I know, right? He claims to be some technical artist working on graphics but his posts seem to prove otherwise. It also doesn't help that he was biased as hell.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Well thank you. Actually work in Emergency Medicine, but pretty passionate about games as well.