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[jason10mm]

In what way?

I'll throw all this under a spoiler just in case, so while I thought Abigail was a ok, fairly amusing film, it missed out on vamp greatness because...
So the set-up, a misfit band thrown together to abduct a girl for ransom is fine. But then they get to the house, just toss her into a room, and proceed to get drunk, not really explore the place, set up any security other than 1 guy kinda watching the driveway, and they are CLEARLY not great at this. So already I'm left wondering why these idiots are sticking around, it's the haunted house "GET OUT" lazy writing fallacy all over again. Then they panic, ok, a guy gets wacked, ok, but then the Abigail reveal is done so quickly, with almost no real build-up, it's not really played for horror or even a jump scare, just a beat of action. THEN it gets worse, the sniper guy is just wacked outta nowhere, they all scatter around the house, their half baked vamp fighting is handled so poorly it loses any real sense of threat. People can run away from Abigail with ease and she is so obsessed with her dancing it seems silly, not threatening or horrifying. But nor is it FUNNY, just silly. The big pool full of bodies was great, but you gotta wonder how or why it is there since that would be an odor you could smell from across the state.

Then we get to the vamp stuff and changing. Abigail has great movements and the teeth are cool, but her affect is off. She seems neither ancient and/or world weary, nor particualrly childlike. Is she like Kirsten Dunst and hating being trapped in a childs body? Is she fascinated with the modern world or totally cut off from it? At no point do the humans ever show any interest in her motivations, try to really deal with her, or ponder her nature. Granted, none of these criminals is a scientist or particularly educated, but they spend an entire scene with the medic chick showing how perceptive she is (aka expositional backstories for each character in a vain attempt to generate empathy for them) but it comes to NOTHING as she uses no science or anything. It's not "new meets old" or "logic versus faith" or any of that. Big burly dude goes down like a chump yet halter top medic chick can withstand being thrown into hardwood panelling a dozen times. No human death has any real visceral thrill to it compared to the EXPLOSION of gore the vamps, for unknown reasons, experience.

Then we get to the chaging. Blondie is bitten and can then be totally possessed, we never really get a sense of what the experience is like FOR HER. Terrifying? Seductive? Total mind wipe? Her teeth change with no agonizing scene (we do see glasses vomit up a lot of blood during his change at least), there is just no horror in it. And a simple flash of sunlight in a silver plate blows her up. Why? Garlic is useless, crosses are useless, but sunlight and stakes are instantly fatal? Why?

Glasses is turned and he seems to be in total control. He is aggressive but its hard to say if this is just him or some vamp property. We never get a transition, its just human and now full vamp. MUST he feed, or could he choose to be gentle about it? MUST he kill, or are all the vamps just homicidal jerks when they were human? Glasses is changed but kills his maker and nothing happens to him. Medic is changed (partially? and killing her 'maker' cures her. Why?) Glasses deals ENORMOUS damage to Abigail, drinking gallons of her blood, but it doesn't seem to do anything to him and very little to her. Is this a vamp property, an age thing, what? The vamp rules are so loose it's impossible to set any stakes, convey risk, or be excited for anything because every scene is unconnected to the scene before. She can fly, but not now. Abigail flops all over between being sadistically evil and innocently in danger. If she can control a bit human then why wouldn't she just do that to medic right away instead of appeal to her desire to see her son? Then glasses tries it, how or why does he think he is doing it? Can he feel the control? Is he just assuming he can based on the very quick interaction with blondie? Why didn't Giancarlo control him or at least sense he was about to get stabbed in the back?

Then daddy shows up and the film again makes a total tonal shift. Is Abigail a prisoner, a plaything, an enforcer, or a child? They try to make her all these things but never settle on a convincing version of any. Medic gets to go free but does she now have dangerous knowledge of vamps? What honor do vamps have to let her live? It all feels too pat of an ending or just a set up for her to be some sort of Van Helsing type character for more spin-offs.

Anyway, happy to discuss further, maybe in a new thread, but these are jsut my thoughts. The film is just a inconsistent but mostly fun little romp, but for reasons described above, it falls far short of the type of vamp tale -I- prefer (stuff like Lost Boys, Near Dark, and even Fright Night, all of which were borrowed from for Abigail, but do much better jobs exploring the aspects of vampires I personally enjoy).

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

It’s a great book.



Wonder if this turns out good.

Keanu was the worst actor in the Bram Stoker movie by a mile, to the point of ruining his scenes... strange choice to bring him of all people back.

And there's apparently another Dracula movie coming in 2025, with a recognizable director... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracula:_A_Love_Tale

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

So the set-up, a misfit band thrown together to abduct a girl for ransom is fine. But then they get to the house, just toss her into a room, and proceed to get drunk, not really explore the place, set up any security other than 1 guy kinda watching the driveway, and they are CLEARLY not great at this.

Spoiler: more

They actually are great at it, they abduct her without leaving a trace, and dodge every surveillance on the way to the safehouse, the safehouse that has been "cleared" by the handler who is mentioned to being trusted because of previous jobs; there's also only one way in, having that entry point being watched by the sniper is what you'd expect. The only point where they fumble and don't stick to the instructions/plan is when glasses enters the room and without his mask.

but then the Abigail reveal is done so quickly, with almost no real build-up, it's not really played for horror or even a jump scare, just a beat of action.

the point was there being no build up, so the audience and characters experience the same "oh shit she's a monster" moment, there's also not enough characters for her to keep playing around with them, that would only work for a very late final act reveal for the killer, but then you'd miss out on any visible chase/death scenes and it would just be an entirely different movie.

their half baked vamp fighting is handled so poorly it loses any real sense of threat. People can run away from Abigail with ease and she is so obsessed with her dancing it seems silly, not threatening or horrifying. But nor is it FUNNY, just silly.

would be weird if they suddenly turned into blade, nobody would know how to suddenly fight a monster when monsters weren't real 5 seconds ago, them going with popular culture and that mostly failing is great. And they can only run away from her because she's playing with them, her staying in the cage and "bargaining" with them showed that fairly clearly.
Also what's funny/threatening will be subjective so I won't get into that.

She seems neither ancient and/or world weary, nor particualrly childlike. Is she like Kirsten Dunst and hating being trapped in a childs body? Is she fascinated with the modern world or totally cut off from it? At no point do the humans ever show any interest in her motivations, try to really deal with her, or ponder her nature.

As mentioned, it doesn't really matter for the story being told, this isn't "an interview with a monster" where their motivations are indeed the story, the story here is "trapped with a killer", however she does hint at things when talking to the medic before the reveal and near the end.

compared to the EXPLOSION of gore the vamps, for unknown reasons, experience.

and a simple flash of sunlight in a silver plate blows her up. Why? Garlic is useless, crosses are useless, but sunlight and stakes are instantly fatal? Why?

why not? There's no need to explain any of those things, it's just the rules for the vampires in that universe and the vampires themselves probably couldn't even answer those questions. It can be inferred that those things being different/useless because the vampire fiction in the universe is mostly bullshit and literally fiction.

Glasses is turned and he seems to be in total control. He is aggressive but its hard to say if this is just him or some vamp property. We never get a transition, its just human and now full vamp. MUST he feed, or could he choose to be gentle about it? MUST he kill, or are all the vamps just homicidal jerks when they were human? Glasses is changed but kills his maker and nothing happens to him. Medic is changed (partially? and killing her 'maker' cures her. Why?)

You've kinda explained it yourself, blonde girl was just bitten and glasses was actually turned by drinking vampire blood, this isn't a new convention when it comes to vampires; medic and blonde girl never drink the vampire blood so they just wind up being "thralls" which is cured by killing the maker.
There's no reason for someone to actually sit down and lore dump this all in-universe, glasses asking if he's just going to be the guy's puppet and then being answered "no, you’d get the whole package" should be more than enough

Glasses deals ENORMOUS damage to Abigail, drinking gallons of her blood, but it doesn't seem to do anything to him and very little to her. Is this a vamp property, an age thing, what?

Not sure what you mean here, him draining her affects her greatly, she's just alluded to being much stronger so she can still fight back somewhat; that's the entire reason glasses gets offered to turn, so they can team up and kill her, and then kill her father after that and take over the empire. She also mentioned it takes a while before being able to do all the cool shit, which can be inferred as them getting stronger with age.
She needs medic's help in the end to survive, so if she wasn't drained glasses would've probably lost.

 

[jason10mm]

Spoiler: more

They actually are great at it, they abduct her without leaving a trace, and dodge every surveillance on the way to the safehouse, the safehouse that has been "cleared" by the handler who is mentioned to being trusted because of previous jobs; there's also only one way in, having that entry point being watched by the sniper is what you'd expect. The only point where they fumble and don't stick to the instructions/plan is when glasses enters the room and without his mask.

the point was there being no build up, so the audience and characters experience the same "oh shit she's a monster" moment, there's also not enough characters for her to keep playing around with them, that would only work for a very late final act reveal for the killer, but then you'd miss out on any visible chase/death scenes and it would just be an entirely different movie.

would be weird if they suddenly turned into blade, nobody would know how to suddenly fight a monster when monsters weren't real 5 seconds ago, them going with popular culture and that mostly failing is great. And they can only run away from her because she's playing with them, her staying in the cage and "bargaining" with them showed that fairly clearly.
Also what's funny/threatening will be subjective so I won't get into that.

As mentioned, it doesn't really matter for the story being told, this isn't "an interview with a monster" where their motivations are indeed the story, the story here is "trapped with a killer", however she does hint at things when talking to the medic before the reveal and near the end.


why not? There's no need to explain any of those things, it's just the rules for the vampires in that universe and the vampires themselves probably couldn't even answer those questions. It can be inferred that those things being different/useless because the vampire fiction in the universe is mostly bullshit and literally fiction.


You've kinda explained it yourself, blonde girl was just bitten and glasses was actually turned by drinking vampire blood, this isn't a new convention when it comes to vampires; medic and blonde girl never drink the vampire blood so they just wind up being "thralls" which is cured by killing the maker.
There's no reason for someone to actually sit down and lore dump this all in-universe, glasses asking if he's just going to be the guy's puppet and then being answered "no, you’d get the whole package" should be more than enough

Not sure what you mean here, him draining her affects her greatly, she's just alluded to being much stronger so she can still fight back somewhat; that's the entire reason glasses gets offered to turn, so they can team up and kill her, and then kill her father after that and take over the empire. She also mentioned it takes a while before being able to do all the cool shit, which can be inferred as them getting stronger with age.
She needs medic's help in the end to survive, so if she wasn't drained glasses would've probably lost.

Fair enough. For a stripped down film your points are probably what they were going for. But, for me, there needs to be more.

For example, the team does the abduction exceedingly well. Of course this turns out to be because it was all a set-up in the first place, though WHY Abigail felt the need to arrange this incredibly elaborate kidnapping when it seems just as easy to have Giancarlos call them all into the house then just trap them there with her instead. I get it, they want a set up for the audience. But then, when they KNOW they have a high value target, half proceed to get drunk, there is no real attempt to secure the house, nothing to convey suspense, terror, or even tension beyond the AUDIENCE knowing shit is gonna go sideways. It's the classic "cop being bored and distracted when stationed outside the house of a woman KNOWN to have a serial killer after her" bit. Real cops are TERRIFIED on this duty because the likelihood of shit going down is very high, it's just lazy writing to have the cop be easily killed.

They also just show Abigail in her glory instead of milking the "is there something in here with us" tension more. This is, for me, a misstep. I would have preferred that Abigail just ripped up the goofball, the muscle, and the sniper right away and then we could have spent more time on blondie, medic, and glasses dealing with a cat and mouse game or being internally conflicted with the vamp changes. As it is, we spend a LOOOOOOOOOOOT of time with the criminals in ways that never really pays off and their deaths are mostly so quick there isn't even much gore value in it. Hell, Abigail should have thralled most of them right off the bat (like how Glasses gets bit in the car but it never goes anywhere versus blondie getting bit and changes rather fast) and then just a few humans could have fought them. And sure, drinking vamp blood as a "boost" to superior vampiredom is pretty common, but this film never really sets the stage to allow the audience to follow along, its just "Random vamp thing from pop culture does or doesn't work, no rhyme or reason to it" and, again for me, that seriously detracts from the 'fun' of seeing people try to outwit the vamp or exploit their weaknesses in clever ways. Here they use sunlight a bit (but then go into a loooooong hallway with boarded up windows and not once did they think to break a board and let in sunlight) and for whatever reason default to stakes when their guns have been shown to at least stun a vamp with a brain shot. Better vamp films give more anticipation to what will or wont work and if there is a surprise moment it is earned, not just thrown out there.

Anyhoo, just my thoughts.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

I've gotten past the dreaded "blood transfusion" sequence. I didn't think it was that bad personally. It felt relatively high paced, and the way it's portrayed is way more dramatic than I expected.

In fact, the last couple chapters since Lucy's weakening has been pretty good stuff. Her mom fucked up big time. Regarding van Helsing, he probably just should have said what he suspected instead of being obtuse about his suspicions of vampirism.

The Demeter stuff was very cool.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

I'm on Chapter 18, and I'm still loving the hell out of it. This is becoming one of my favorite novels.

One of the things I think the movies don't really do justice is that the novel revels in everyday decency. The characters are portrayed as the noblest people on the planet, not because they're particularly brave but because they're kind in a mundane sort of way. I've never seen living life as a normal decent person hyped up before and it's really cool and inspiring.

Also, the story is very much about the rational scientific world defeating the old backwards superstitions. Van Helsing gives a speech about how Dracula has a bunch of powers that are pretty crazy, but he can't beat them as long as the main characters rely on each other and the power of science. Kinda of cool.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Finished it last night. 9/10 novel. It does lose a bit of steam at the end. Not that the events are boring, but Stoker seemed to write with less care. It feels rushed for sure.

RIP Quincy

 

[Calico345]

Just in time for Halloween. I'm planning on double teaming it with Salem's Lot.

Salem's Lot is still one of my favorite (early career) Stephen King novels. I can still see so many scenes vividly when I read it. I am long overdue for a reading of it. And I've never read Bram Stoker's Dracula. Sounds like it is time to remedy that. Thank you for the thread!

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Salem's Lot is still one of my favorite (early career) Stephen King novels. I can still see so many scenes vividly when I read it. I am long overdue for a reading of it. And I've never read Bram Stoker's Dracula. Sounds like it is time to remedy that. Thank you for the thread!

I'm about 60% through Salem's Lot. It's very good. VERY good even. Susan is kind of a non-character, but Ben and Matt are very good. and some of the lot characters are fun too

 

[EverythingsOverrated]

Salem's Lot is still one of my favorite (early career) Stephen King novels. I can still see so many scenes vividly when I read it. I am long overdue for a reading of it. And I've never read Bram Stoker's Dracula. Sounds like it is time to remedy that. Thank you for the thread!

I started Salem's Lot last week and am a little more than halfway through. The slow buildup really works well, I can feel the shit slowly flying towards the fan.

I'm about 60% through Salem's Lot. It's very good. VERY good even. Susan is kind of a non-character, but Ben and Matt are very good. and some of the lot characters are fun too

Yeah, Susan is least interesting character in the book, at this point. She feels almost like a parody character at times.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Yeah, Susan is least interesting character in the book, at this point. She feels almost like a parody character at times.

She does something later on that feels really out of left field. Felt sort of artificial, like it was done just to push the plot forward.

That said I read an amazing scene last night. It was incredible.

Spoiler: Salem's Lot spoiler

Ben and Dr. Cody go to a morgue to observe a corpse. Cody is skeptical but not ruling out the possibility of vampires. Nothing happens for a long time, but then all of a sudden Cody freaks out and asks Ben where his cross was. "Something is about to happen. Can't you feel it?"

Best section in the book.

 

[Madflavor]

The Coppola film is the quintessential Dracula film for me. It absolutely nails the gothic horror atmosphere, the makeup and visuals are insanely good. The acting unfortunately is a very mixed bag. You get great performances by Gary Oldman and Anthony Hopkins, and then there's Keanu Reeves and Winona Ryder.

 

[8bitpill]

Watched the film when it came out and I was 9. This one holds true 30 years later.

As for the book, I think I should finally read it.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

I love the Coppola movie. Visually it's fantastic and I love the atmosphere and tone. I even love Keanu's shitty British accent. And while it's arguably the most faithful in terms of events, I do think it dilutes the central theme of everyday decency being eroded by Dracula's presence by certain changes it makes to the plot.

But it's a wonderful movie. So lush. The music! So great.

 

[mopspear]

I got the audiobook a few years ago and haven't finished it but I really, really liked it. This was my favorite part from the beginning portion:

Spoiler

When the first guy is in Dracula's castle and he finds him sleeping in a coffin and he tries to kill him with a shovel but it doesn't do anything. I can feel the "Oh nooooooo..." that the character must have felt, so very well.

Also:

Spoiler

This post brought to you by Audible

 

[jason10mm]

I got the audiobook a few years ago and haven't finished it but I really, really liked it. This was my favorite part from the beginning portion:

Spoiler

When the first guy is in Dracula's castle and he finds him sleeping in a coffin and he tries to kill him with a shovel but it doesn't do anything. I can feel the "Oh nooooooo..." that the character must have felt, so very well.

Also:

Spoiler

This post brought to you by Audible

Are you seriously putting up spoiler tags for a 125 year old novel???

 

[Bloobs]

The Coppola film is the quintessential Dracula film for me. It absolutely nails the gothic horror atmosphere, the makeup and visuals are insanely good. The acting unfortunately is a very mixed bag. You get great performances by Gary Oldman and Anthony Hopkins, and then there's Keanu Reeves and Winona Ryder.

Yeah I agree. The new Nosferatu movie is looking good tho.

 

[Chuck Berry]

I'm about 60% through Salem's Lot. It's very good. VERY good even. Susan is kind of a non-character, but Ben and Matt are very good. and some of the lot characters are fun too

Scariest book Ive ever read in my life. Masterpiece.

Try and get your hands on the full length TV movie from 1979 after you're finished.

 

[mopspear]

Are you seriously putting up spoiler tags for a 125 year old novel???

People are sensitive sometimes so I just do "better safe than sorry" but it wasn't even really a spoiler. Nearly any book can be spoiled, regardless of how old it is. This thread could have a lot of people who decide to read Dracula because others enjoyed it.