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[vaibhavpisal]

12>10.

Last time I checked. Series X is more capable hardware. Its not used properly by devs.

Get over it. None of the secret sauce matters. If it did, it would change conventional wisdom. It hasn't done it yet.

We don't get GPUs from AMD/Nvidia designed with narrow but fast in mind. Seems to be worse design in fact.

 

[Mr Moose]

12>10.

Last time I checked. Series X is more capable hardware. Its not used properly by devs.

Get over it. None of the secret sauce matters. If it did, it would change conventional wisdom. It hasn't done it yet.

We don't get GPUs from AMD/Nvidia designed with narrow but fast in mind. Seems to be worse design in fact.

I can taste the salt from here.
Radeon RX 6700
36CU
Boost Clock 2450 MHz

9060 XT
32CU
3130 MHz

Pro isn't "narrow and fast" it's "fatter" than a Series X, and faster.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

MS before and after launch:

Pretty spot on actually

 

[Skifi28]

We don't get GPUs from AMD/NvSeems to be worse design in fact.

I think the point of the design was economics. Achieving near parity with a smaller chip seems like a success and exactly what they were going for in a console design.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

I can taste the salt from here.
Radeon RX 6700
36CU
Boost Clock 2450 MHz

9060 XT
32CU
3130 MHz

Pro isn't "narrow and fast" it's "fatter" than a Series X, and faster.

Appreciate the effort must have taken to find gpus that fit your narrative.

 

[Mr Moose]

Appreciate the effort must have taken to find gpus that fit your narrative.

It took 2 seconds to destroy your narrative.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

It took 2 seconds to destroy your narrative.

Its science then.

A gpu with lower teraflops but higher clock speeds will outperform another one with lower clock speeds.

Eh?

 

[Mr Moose]

Its science then.

A gpu with lower teraflops but higher clock speeds will outperform another one with lower clock speeds.

Eh?

Depends on multiple factors.

 

[onQ123]

This was in March of 2020, less than a year before the launch of the base consoles. They certainly did not have the specs of the PS5 Pro before the PS5 launched. Phil might have been confident about XSX but at no point would he think the XSS was more powerful than the PS5. He also thought the Series S would be the best selling Xbox.

That was the reaction to the confirmation of the specs that doesn't tell you that they didn't hear of the specs through their industry connections.

 

[onQ123]

I feel so sorry for everybody having to witness Sony apologists bumping ancient threads and creating new ones to make Xbox look bad, all because Sony are having such a creatively bankrupt generation and they cannot stand the discourse around it.

Nice projection lol

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

That was the reaction to the confirmation of the specs that doesn't tell you that they didn't hear of the specs through their industry connections.

They knew, roughly at least its where I got my % how much stronger the Series X would be in the next gen speculations thread

Heck Tom Henderson has been sitting on PS6 info since well before the PS5 Pro was even confirmed likely because he does not want to possibly burn where he got it from

Anyone who thinks the other camp doesn't know what each other is doing is just plain trolling or lucky breathing is in involuntary reflex

 

[Mibu no ookami]

That was the reaction to the confirmation of the specs that doesn't tell you that they didn't hear of the specs through their industry connections.

re-read it... He said he was stressed for the reveal and they spent the next 12 hours picking apart the specs... They didn't know the specs.

 

[onQ123]

12>10.

Last time I checked. Series X is more capable hardware. Its not used properly by devs.

Get over it. None of the secret sauce matters. If it did, it would change conventional wisdom. It hasn't done it yet.

We don't get GPUs from AMD/Nvidia designed with narrow but fast in mind. Seems to be worse design in fact.

You say this dumb crap even after all that you have seen?

Willfully ignorance

 

[onQ123]

re-read it... He said he was stressed for the reveal and they spent the next 12 hours picking apart the specs... They didn't know the specs.

We knew the specs but you think people at Xbox didn't?

 

[Xyphie]

This idea that no one at Microsoft knew the specs before the reveal is farcical, the high-order bits of the PS5 specs were public information by early 2019 thanks to leaks from online benchmarks. It was well-established more or less what the SoC specs were by Summer of that year with the big Github leak.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

You say this dumb crap even after all that you have seen?

Willfully ignorance

There is no secret sauce dude.

Actual explanation is much simpler.

 

[onQ123]

There is no secret sauce dude.

Actual explanation is much simpler.

Just better cooks with more knowledge

 

[Mibu no ookami]

We knew the specs but you think people at Xbox didn't?

Like I said, most leaks about specs come from devkits that 3rd parties get and absolutely Microsoft probably had some idea of the specs, but devkits are devkits, they're not finalized retail hardware.

This idea that no one at Microsoft knew the specs before the reveal is farcical, the high-order bits of the PS5 specs were public information by early 2019 thanks to leaks from online benchmarks. It was well-established more or less what the SoC specs were by Summer of that year with the big Github leak.

Please explain why you think Phil Spencer sends this email to his boss if he already knows the specs of the PS5 before the reveal... this was not for the public's benefit, this was information brought out by court proceedings...

You give corporations way more credit than you should as if they're all knowing and infallible.

If you go back to early 2019 you'll see a litany of leaks accurate or inaccurate.

What you guys don't seem to understand is that it's not about the specs, it's about the BOM.

If you tell AMD, I want to build a console and it has to be 500 dollars and I'm only willing to lose 200 dollars per unit sold, you're going to get pretty much the exact same unit as someone else asking for the same thing from the same source. This is why neither company wanted to announce a price until the last minute.

The Series S launched for 299 and the PS5 Digital launched for 399 and Sony limited production of the PS5 Digital for much of the pandemic. They were impossible to find.

 

[Skifi28]

There is no secret sauce dude.

Actual explanation is much simpler.

Are we back to "the tools"?

This really does feel like 2020-21 all over again.

 

[Fafalada]

They knew, roughly at least its where I got my % how much stronger the Series X would be in the next gen speculations thread
Anyone who thinks the other camp doesn't know what each other is doing is just plain trolling or lucky breathing is in involuntary reflex

'Directionally' it's known but until it's out in public there can be (and have been) multiple possible options that are being considered.
PS4 coming in at 8GB was a pretty late stage decision.
So was 360 getting 512MB - for a long time 360 was 256MB and PS3 was 192MB (all eDRam) machine.
PSP was 14MB (all eDram) until beginning of 2004 also. GC had last minute clock speed changes, as did og. XBox.
Hell - this predates MS involvement - but PS2 was 8MB VRam for a pretty long time too.

 

[Little Chicken]

Nice projection lol

You sound caught out.

 

[Xyphie]

Like I said, most leaks about specs come from devkits that 3rd parties get and absolutely Microsoft probably had some idea of the specs, but devkits are devkits, they're not finalized retail hardware.



Please explain why you think Phil Spencer sends this email to his boss if he already knows the specs of the PS5 before the reveal... this was not for the public's benefit, this was information brought out by court proceedings...

You give corporations way more credit than you should as if they're all knowing and infallible.

If you go back to early 2019 you'll see a litany of leaks accurate or inaccurate.

What you guys don't seem to understand is that it's not about the specs, it's about the BOM.

If you tell AMD, I want to build a console and it has to be 500 dollars and I'm only willing to lose 200 dollars per unit sold, you're going to get pretty much the exact same unit as someone else asking for the same thing from the same source. This is why neither company wanted to announce a price until the last minute.

The Series S launched for 299 and the PS5 Digital launched for 399 and Sony limited production of the PS5 Digital for much of the pandemic. They were impossible to find.

We knew more or less exactly what the specs of the SoC was year+ ahead of launch, you can napkin-math together the die size etc from that more or less, especially when you have a more or less comparable chip using the same technology base. Some savvy supply chain person at Microsoft can put together what 16GB GDDR6, PSU, disc drive, a controller etc will cost Sony. You live in a clown world if you think no one at Microsoft does this for a living and anything came as a major surprise for them.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

'Directionally' it's known but until it's out in public there can be (and have been) multiple possible options that are being considered.
PS4 coming in at 8GB was a pretty late stage decision.
So was 360 getting 512MB - for a long time 360 was 256MB and PS3 was 192MB (all eDRam) machine.
PSP was 14MB (all eDram) until beginning of 2004 also. GC had last minute clock speed changes, as did og. XBox.
Hell - this predates MS involvement - but PS2 was 8MB VRam for a pretty long time too.

Its why I say they roughly knew the specs and were pretty dead on with their TF numbers and they honestly felt their Series X was going to win every head to head matchup with the PS5 easily

Spencer honestly thought the Series X was indeed their Pro console and Sony needed its PS5 Pro to compete with their Series X

But you are right there could be surprises because the SSD solution did catch them off guard and they actually laughed about it saying during the reveal, and I quote because I was there "They spent too much R&D on the SSD that will not equate to real world differences"

 

[Unknown?]

Its why I say they roughly knew the specs and were pretty dead on with their TF numbers and they honestly felt their Series X was going to win every head to head matchup with the PS5 easily

Spencer honestly thought the Series X was indeed their Pro console and Sony needed its PS5 Pro to compete with their Series X

But you are right there could be surprises because the SSD solution did catch them off guard and they actually laughed about it saying during the reveal, and I quote because I was there "They spent too much R&D on the SSD that will not equate to real world differences"

Boy were they wrong. Lol But you still have people like vaibhavpisal thinking like Phil in 2020.

 

[Astray]

Are we back to "the tools"?

This really does feel like 2020-21 all over again.

 

[Skifi28]

But you still have people like vaibhavpisal thinking like Phil in 2020.

Reminds me of those Japanese soldiers still fighting in WW2 decades later in some remote island somewhere.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Just better cooks with more knowledge

Secret sauce then ?

Unacceptable.

Give a proper reasoning.

Else just accept it devs dont optimise for it or push it.

 

[onQ123]

You sound caught out.

If that makes you feel better but out here in realityland

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Secret sauce then ?

Unacceptable.

Give a proper reasoning.

Else just accept it devs dont optimise for it or push it.

I don't think it's "secret sauce"

You do have different underlying technologies though.

Xbox games are developed through DirectX while PS5 games are developed through GNM/GNMX. GNM is going to get you closer to metal than DirectX.

PS5's IO system is better than the XBS IO system and has fewer bottlenecks

XSX has split pool ram and the PS5 doesn't, making the PS5 easier to develop for.

When building a game for XSX, you have to start with the XSS in mind and build from there. And that might be okay if most games weren't multiplatform and built around the PS5...

There are all sorts of reasons why XSX isn't going to be fully utilized or optimized as you'd like and that includes a more generic API, more bottlenecks, a more difficult memory system to navigate, and having to navigate the XSS.

But continue to push all the blame on to developers rather than acknowledging that Microsoft made some questionable choices.

 

[onQ123]

Secret sauce then ?

Unacceptable.

Give a proper reasoning.

Else just accept it devs dont optimise for it or push it.

You're talking to the wrong guy because I laid it out for everyone before the consoles even released but that's not what this thread is even about.

You might want to try your luck with someone who didn't know how things would turn out

O

Thread '40 CU 9.75 TFLOPs RX 5700 XT vs 64 CU 12.6 TFLOPs RX Vega 64 ( Different architectures but probably the best way to compare PS5 & Xbox SX for now)'

Mar 25, 2020

Why RX 5700 XT vs RX Vega 64 & not RX 590 vs RX Vega 64? My reason for this is because RX 590 is ROP limited with 32 ROPs while RX 5700 XT has the same 64 ROPs as the RX Vega 64.

RX 5700 XT is a newer architecture & benefit from that but at the same time I'm comparing it to the RX Vega 64 & not the RX Vega 56 . it's not a perfect way of comparing PS5 to Xbox SX but it should give a better idea of how everything isn't locked to TFLOPs .

And just so that no stones are left un turned I'll also mention that Xbox SX will have higher memory bandwidth than the RX Vega 64 & will also...

• onQ123
• Replies: 35
• Forum: Gaming Discussion

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O

Thread 'If Microsoft don't use just the TFLOPS to compare Xbox Series X GPU to the Xbox One & Xbox One X why is everyone else using it to compare it to PS5 ?'

Aug 21, 2020

They only claim a 4-6X raw GPU advantage over Xbox One while having 9X TFLOPS advantage , The triangles rate advantage is the part that bring it down to 4 -6X the raw GPU output & PS5 actually has the advantage in triangle & pixel fill rate so why do people keep using the Xbox Series X GPU TFLOPS to claim a 18% advantage for Xbox SX over PS5?

• onQ123
• Replies: 26
• Forum: Gaming Discussion

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[Unknown?]

Secret sauce then ?

Unacceptable.

Give a proper reasoning.

Else just accept it devs dont optimise for it or push it.

The proof is on you to explain, with technical knowledge, why one is better despite real world evidence saying otherwise.

Not just, "her due one number bigger". Was the Atari Jaguar as powerful as the N64 because it was 64 bits?

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

The proof is on you to explain, with technical knowledge, why one is better despite real world evidence saying otherwise.

Not just, "her due one number bigger". Was the Atari Jaguar as powerful as the N64 because it was 64 bits?

Isn't this the theory pushed by Digital Foundry and why they acted so shocked when the PS5 kept performing so well in their head to head matchups (12 bigger must win)?

It was the MS marching orders almost word for word if I remember correctly

 

[sendit]

vaibhavpisal found your abandoned e-home:

|OT|  Thread '|OT| Xbox Power King Memes'

Mar 18, 2020

Rather than fill up *every* thread with gloating memes ... let's just do it here so not every PlayStation fan has to endure the suffering of their personal embarrassment in all places at all times.

• Lort
• Replies: 2,491
• Forum: Communities

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[vaibhavpisal]

I don't think it's "secret sauce"

You do have different underlying technologies though.

Xbox games are developed through DirectX while PS5 games are developed through GNM/GNMX. GNM is going to get you closer to metal than DirectX.

PS5's IO system is better than the XBS IO system and has fewer bottlenecks

XSX has split pool ram and the PS5 doesn't, making the PS5 easier to develop for.

When building a game for XSX, you have to start with the XSS in mind and build from there. And that might be okay if most games weren't multiplatform and built around the PS5...

There are all sorts of reasons why XSX isn't going to be fully utilized or optimized as you'd like and that includes a more generic API, more bottlenecks, a more difficult memory system to navigate, and having to navigate the XSS.

But continue to push all the blame on to developers rather than acknowledging that Microsoft made some questionable choices.

None of this is definitive. Its all guesswork.

This should be a point of research for amd/nvidia for their next gpu. How to get a lower TF gpu to perform higher.

None of that has happened.

All technical explanations belong to fanboy fantasy land. Explanation for this is not technical at all. Its financial.

 

[onQ123]

vaibhavpisal found your abandoned e-home:

|OT|  Thread '|OT| Xbox Power King Memes'

Mar 18, 2020

Rather than fill up *every* thread with gloating memes ... let's just do it here so not every PlayStation fan has to endure the suffering of their personal embarrassment in all places at all times.

• Lort
• Replies: 2,491
• Forum: Communities

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This is one of my favorite NeoGaf posts I'm not sure how it never became a meme

But back on topic:

Series S was always meant to be the main Xbox console of this generation & it's price was meant to be it's big advantage over PS5 , Xbox never wanted to sell Series X at a higher rate than Series S because it was their premium device & it was being sold at a big lost.

 

[Bojanglez]

Its why I say they roughly knew the specs and were pretty dead on with their TF numbers and they honestly felt their Series X was going to win every head to head matchup with the PS5 easily

Spencer honestly thought the Series X was indeed their Pro console and Sony needed its PS5 Pro to compete with their Series X

But you are right there could be surprises because the SSD solution did catch them off guard and they actually laughed about it saying during the reveal, and I quote because I was there "They spent too much R&D on the SSD that will not equate to real world differences"

Surely people in their position should realise that using one specific (not that useful) metric, wasn't enough to declare victory internally when there are so many other metrics and factors in play.

The whole MS leadership group has fumbled this gen in terms of hardware, and luckily they have been given a $70Bn bailout to make them relevant in software.

 

[Matt_Fox]

Isn't this the theory pushed by Digital Foundry and why they acted so shocked when the PS5 kept performing so well in their head to head matchups (12 bigger must win)?

I thought the same, and that was really the reason I bought Series X to be my superior multi-format gaming machine.

Turned out it wasn't the case and beyond the tiniest differences the two consoles pretty much had parity. Although I did appreciate the XSX quick resume function it wasn't enough and now with the PS5 Pro in existence the XSX is obsolete for me.

(mind you if Xbox are first to market with their next gen console I suspect I'll be tempted back...)

 

[kevboard]

Isn't this the theory pushed by Digital Foundry and why they acted so shocked when the PS5 kept performing so well in their head to head matchups (12 bigger must win)?

It was the MS marching orders almost word for word if I remember correctly

they were confused because it indeed often didn't make sense.
but of course it did make sense, because the PS5 was obviously almost always the primary focus of developers when it came to optimisation.
which was clearly demonstrated when Series X versions, running on a faster CPU, were more CPU limited in moments that didn't make much sense.

btw. we are slowly seeing this turn around now, as more and more games do indeed run better on Series X now.
mesh shaders and the use of raytracing especially is giving the Series X almost always a small advantage now.
with Ubisoft's render budget graph for raytracing showing a clear advantage, positioning the Series X between the PS5 and the Pro (although closer to PS5 than the Pro of course) and game performance in recent iD Tech games that also heavily rely on raytracing is also somewhere in the middle of the 2 PS5 machines.

 

[onQ123]

Surely people in their position should realise that using one specific (not that useful) metric, wasn't enough to declare victory internally when there are so many other metrics and factors in play.

The whole MS leadership group has fumbled this gen in terms of hardware, and luckily they have been given a $70Bn bailout to make them relevant in software.

I believe they just wanted the mind share & thought that the bigger number would give them that & lead to a PS4 vs Xbox One situation .

They attacked the market from both ends though with Series S but the Digital PS5 was right there to give people a better choice for their money.

 

[Unknown?]

they were confused because it indeed often didn't make sense.
but of course it did make sense, because the PS5 was obviously almost always the primary focus of developers when it came to optimisation.
which was clearly demonstrated when Series X versions, running on a faster CPU, were more CPU limited in moments that didn't make much sense.

btw. we are slowly seeing this turn around now, as more and more games do indeed run better on Series X now.
mesh shaders and the use of raytracing especially is giving the Series X almost always a small advantage now.
with Ubisoft's render budget graph for raytracing showing a clear advantage, positioning the Series X between the PS5 and the Pro (although closer to PS5 than the Pro of course) and game performance in recent iD Tech games that also heavily rely on raytracing is also somewhere in the middle of the 2 PS5 machines.

It's just as small as it has ever been and nowhere near being in between PS5/Pro.

 

[simpatico]

Man we were so innocent in 2023. Still assumed there were killer-app Sony games right around the corner. Ah, to be young again.

 

[kevboard]

It's just as small as it has ever been and nowhere near being in between PS5/Pro.

in Doom TDA the SX is very much right between them, slightly skewed towards the base PS5.

of course the difference is not massive, but it's more in line with what you would expect when comparing the raw GPU power of each system.
the Series X is getting higher dynamic resolutions, and in CPU limited moments it keeps frame rates more stable.

at the beginning of this generation the exact opposite was happening, the SX often came out behind in both GPU and CPU related comparisons.
while now we see it over and over again the way people expected it to be. all Ubisoft titles, Alan Wake 2, all iD Tech titles etc. are now showing the originally expected GPU and CPU advantage of the SX.

the differences can never really be all that big, as even the GPU power difference between the base PS5 and the PS5 Pro is only slightly bigger than the difference between the Xbox One and the PS4 was. and even there in many games the difference between them was just that one ran at 1080p while the other ran at 900p

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Man we were so innocent in 2023. Still assumed there were killer-app Sony games right around the corner. Ah, to be young again.

Some of us knew before Spiderman 2 even launched we were heading into a drier spell

 

[Zannegan]

Man we were so innocent in 2023. Still assumed there were killer-app Sony games right around the corner. Ah, to be young again.

I kept saying I'd buy into "next gen" one killer apps hit critical mass and prices came down a tad. Yet here I sit, with no PS5 and no XSX.

 

[Shinz]

Secret sauce then ?

Unacceptable.

Give a proper reasoning.

Else just accept it devs dont optimise for

None of this is definitive. Its all guesswork.

This should be a point of research for amd/nvidia for their next gpu. How to get a lower TF gpu to perform higher.

None of that has happened.

All technical explanations belong to fanboy fantasy land. Explanation for this is not technical at all. Its financial.

It's called engineering and both companies are constantly researching how to maximize the effective power within the limitations they set. Each new architecture is an example of this.

 

[recursive]

12>10.

Last time I checked. Series X is more capable hardware. Its not used properly by devs.

Get over it. None of the secret sauce matters. If it did, it would change conventional wisdom. It hasn't done it yet.

We don't get GPUs from AMD/Nvidia designed with narrow but fast in mind. Seems to be worse design in fact.

 

[Fafalada]

of course the difference is not massive, but it's more in line with what you would expect when comparing the raw GPU power of each system.
the Series X is getting higher dynamic resolutions, and in CPU limited moments it keeps frame rates more stable.

Using anecdotes to 'prove' CPU delta (when actual diff is as irrelevant as this gen consoles is) are and have always been bunk.
DF even tried to parade that nonsense last gen even though there was like 8 examples of PS4 cpu running faster for every 2 where XBox did.
And every single one of those examples (in both generations) is better explained by compiler and API differences than it is by 5% clock delta - of course - that's assuming looking at CPU performance profiling at all and not just doing astronaut analysis of it though.

The GPU is much more concrete - it's been a tossup from day one where both consoles have been concretely shown to render pixels faster than each other. And I agree that most likely measured GPU stats favour the SX more often than PS5 (but noone's ever done that analysis numerically so it's still anecdotal not empirical argument).

the differences can never really be all that big, as even the GPU power difference between the base PS5 and the PS5 Pro is only slightly bigger than the difference between the Xbox One and the PS4 was. and even there in many games the difference between them was just that one ran at 1080p while the other ran at 900p

Most X1 games ran substantially worse at 900p or dropped other settings. I am not sure I'd even agree the hw-delta was smaller there though - PS4 had doubled a lot of resources over X1 (and in some cases games ran at 2x the resolution and performed better at the same time).

Its why I say they roughly knew the specs and were pretty dead on with their TF numbers and they honestly felt their Series X was going to win every head to head matchup with the PS5 easily

That's why I said, directionally those things bleed out pretty fast.
But also why it's all unreliable until announced - hell MS themselves originally shared a different XSX with developers (same 12TFlop but wider and lower clocked), and that was late 2019, but well before the public unveiling.
Anyway - Sony engineers were confident a 192MB PS3 would outperform 360 too - until both of them changed

 

[DeepEnigma]

12>10.

Last time I checked. Series X is more capable hardware. Its not used properly by devs.

Get over it. None of the secret sauce matters. If it did, it would change conventional wisdom. It hasn't done it yet.

We don't get GPUs from AMD/Nvidia designed with narrow but fast in mind. Seems to be worse design in fact.

Riky's new account is boring.

 

[SomeGit]

in Doom TDA the SX is very much right between them, slightly skewed towards the base PS5.

of course the difference is not massive, but it's more in line with what you would expect when comparing the raw GPU power of each system.
the Series X is getting higher dynamic resolutions, and in CPU limited moments it keeps frame rates more stable.

at the beginning of this generation the exact opposite was happening, the SX often came out behind in both GPU and CPU related comparisons.
while now we see it over and over again the way people expected it to be. all Ubisoft titles, Alan Wake 2, all iD Tech titles etc. are now showing the originally expected GPU and CPU advantage of the SX.

the differences can never really be all that big, as even the GPU power difference between the base PS5 and the PS5 Pro is only slightly bigger than the difference between the Xbox One and the PS4 was. and even there in many games the difference between them was just that one ran at 1080p while the other ran at 900p

Yeah looking at this year's BrazilPixel videos have always shown consistently higher dynamic res compared to base PS5, while having a comparable framerate. This isn't the same thing as the start of the gen, lately the XSX has been outperforming the base PS5, while consuming much less power too.

 

[Negotiator101]

Depends on multiple factors.

Go on?