Inane question about The Hobbit from obstinate OP. Why do dragons like gold?

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Dragons and Balrogs are created children of Melkor/Morgoth- thus they are filled with his lust for power, greed for all things splendid, and malice toward all other living things of Arda that are not under his dominion.

Your right in that a dragon has no practical use for gold and gems, but neither do elves, humans, dwarfs, orc, or hobbits. Such things are purely for enjoyment. They can not be eaten, nor worn as warm garments, nor provide practical shelter. Gold and gems have value because society gives them value.

The good children of Middle Earth go to war over gold and gems (aka the story of The Hobbit). So why is it hard to accept that creature born of greed like dragons would not also covet such impractical item and kill for them?

If the Dwarfs truly cared only for returning to their ancestral home, they could have offered to carve Smaug a new lair, moved his treasure, and given him further treasure in exchange for the city. Or to prevent Smaug from plundering and destroying more lands, they could have forge alliances with others (dwarves, men, and elves) with the offer to split the treasure.

But no, Thorin and company wanted the city and the riches for themselves. How is their greed more acceptable and understandable than Smaug's?
 
Perspicacity said:
Rap cred
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Zyae said:
right, and you know what gold represents? Greed.
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See, this is the problem I struggled with as I was thinking about this element of the story. Greed does not make sense as a motivation because there seems to be no utility for the gold for a dragon; Smaug does not need it to exchange for sustenance, for lodging, for weapons, for an army, for anything.

What does make sense is that he needs it for survival and I think Tolkien's direct quote sums it up quite nicely that the element gold has an energy infused in it that is requisite for magic. For magical creatures like dragons, then it makes perfect sense that they desire gold.

Chococat said:
If the Dwarfs truly cared only for returning to their ancestral home, they could have offered to carve Smaug a new lair, moved his treasure, and given him further treasure in exchange for the city. Or to prevent Smaug from plundering and destroying more lands, they could have forge alliances with others (dwarves, men, and elves) with the offer to split the treasure.

But no, Thorin and company wanted the city and the riches for themselves. How is their greed more acceptable and understandable than Smaug's?
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Their greed is more understandable because they are not all-powerful creatures like Smaug. Thorin or any army would require funds to conduct war, build defenses, trade for supplies and weapons, and so on. To be all-powerful, Man or Dwarve must have a fortune to raise and move armies. A dragon has no such need for gold.
 
Chococat said:
Dragons and Balrogs are created children of Melkor/Morgoth- thus they are filled with his lust for power, greed for all things splendid, and malice toward all other living things of Arda that are not under his dominion.

Your right in that a dragon has no practical use for gold and gems, but neither do elves, humans, dwarfs, orc, or hobbits. Such things are purely for enjoyment. They can not be eaten, nor worn as warm garments, nor provide practical shelter. Gold and gems have value because society gives them value.

The good children of Middle Earth go to war over gold and gems (aka the story of The Hobbit). So why is it hard to accept that creature born of greed like dragons would not also covet such impractical item and kill for them?

If the Dwarfs truly cared only for returning to their ancestral home, they could have offered to carve Smaug a new lair, moved his treasure, and given him further treasure in exchange for the city. Or to prevent Smaug from plundering and destroying more lands, they could have forge alliances with others (dwarves, men, and elves) with the offer to split the treasure.

But no, Thorin and company wanted the city and the riches for themselves. How is their greed more acceptable and understandable than Smaug's?
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Balrogs are actually Maiar, like Gandalf, Saruman and Sauron. They attuned themselves with Melkor when he created discord during the Music. They chose the form they did, as could all Ainur.
 
The gold is a measure and history of his dominance and power. He knows every coin and cup and who he murdered or terrorized to acquire it. Dragons don't steal--they take, imposing their acquisitive will by force or threat of same. That's why he is so enraged when Bilbo takes a cup--he is being taken from, being dominated. He can't allow that to happen ever.
 
Don't ever watch a time travel movie OP, your head will explode. Should probably stay away from any thing that involves illogical human/dragon emotion too.

greedisgood 999999
 
CharlieDigital said:
See, this is the problem I struggled with as I was thinking about this element of the story. Greed does not make sense as a motivation because there seems to be no utility for the gold for a dragon; Smaug does not need it to exchange for sustenance, for lodging, for weapons, for an army, for anything.

What does make sense is that he needs it for survival and I think Tolkien's direct quote sums it up quite nicely that the element gold has an energy infused in it that is requisite for magic. For magical creatures like dragons, then it makes perfect sense that they desire gold.



Their greed is more understandable because they are not all-powerful creatures like Smaug. Thorin or any army would require funds to conduct war, build defenses, trade for supplies and weapons, and so on. To be all-powerful, Man or Dwarve must have a fortune to raise and move armies. A dragon has no such need for gold.
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you don't understand greed, or your definition of it is too acute. you don't see dragons doing magic spells, so this whole "gold is magic, dragons are magic, dragons like gold" logic is unnecessary. Now if you need the explanation for WHY dragons like gold so much, fine. But why do dragons hoard gold? Because they like it.

The problem isn't with the explanation, it's with your inability to understand it.
 
akira28 said:
But why do dragons hoard gold? Because they like it.
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I don't think that to be the case based on the link provided by thefro and the direct quote from Tolkien himself that gold has within it an energy required for magic.

The problem isn't with the explanation, it's with your inability to understand it.
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I think that actually, it is many other posters in this thread who are obstinate; I'm totally open to understanding this character in the context of this universe and many folks here seem to not like the idea that dragons essentially "feed" on gold. You could still fall back and call this "greed", but it is much more like a survival instinct.
 
CharlieDigital said:
Their greed is more understandable because they are not all-powerful creatures like Smaug. Thorin or any army would require funds to conduct war, build defenses, trade for supplies and weapons, and so on. To be all-powerful, Man or Dwarve must have a fortune to raise and move armies. A dragon has no such need for gold.
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Their greed is not more understandable than Smaug- it is exactly the same. Neither Smaug, nor dwarves, men, and elves require power and gold to live.

Smaug stole the Dwarfs gold and city cause he is a greedy a-hole. The Dwarves didn't go to slay Smaug for the betterment of Middle Earth- they were greedy and wanted their gold and city back- the consequence to other living peoples be damned. Gold is non-essentially to either survival. Anything can be used for monetary exchange for time and work- beads, shells, beer, food, paper- it does not have to be gold.

To they guy who corrected me about the Balrogs being Maier- I'm just now completing my read of the Similarion. I did not catch that they were Maier, only that they were Malkor's. My bad.
 
The Hobbit is a children's tale, and you are simply reading too deep into it. Dragons have traditionally been portrayed as hording piles of gold in all sorts of fairy tales. It's very strange to ask for Smaug to have some special motivation when he is just a trope.
 
Pai Pai Master said:
I dunno op, why don't you go find a dragon and ask him? this smaug sure is crazy. does he think he's living in some sort of weird fantasy land?

But really, it doesn't fucking matter that Smaug can't go to DQ and get a yummy oreo Blizzard with all his gold. Other people owned it. He stole it. Other people want it. He wants to keep it.
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Dammit I was just there yesterday and got one. Dammit. Don't do that.

Fine.
 
Remember what happened to Thorin when he got his hands on all the gold? Remember what happened to Thorin's ancestors? (we don't actually see this, but it's discussed). The common factor here is that all of them changed for the worse as a result of the gold. With Thorin it's most obvious because you can see the transformation actually happen. He turns evil. The gold is cursed, so to speak, and corrupts those who come into its possession.
 
Smaug is a collector. He gets off on the fact that there's a story to tell behind every treasure he has in that pile, and one day he's totally going to get around to signing up to all the dragon dating sites and find a dragon girlfriend who appreciates that.
 
People keep saying he's reading too deep into it, and yet an explanation by Tolkien himself has been posted. This explanation seems to have satisfied the OP. I'd say he's looked just the right depth into it.
 
I have a question too. I've seen the first two Hobbit movies, why is it that we care if the Dwarves go back to their homeland? At least in Lord of the Rings, the bad guys were hell bent on world domination, enslaving all of mankind. The premise of the Hobbit is really just about the dwarves getting back to the Lonely Mountain? Being serious here.
 
D6AMIA6N said:
I have a question too. I've seen the first two Hobbit movies, why is it that we care if the Dwarves go back to their homeland? At least in Lord of the Rings, the bad guys were hell bent on world domination, enslaving all of mankind. The premise of the Hobbit is really just about the dwarves getting back to the Lonely Mountain? Being serious here.
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Because you like Bilbo and want him to succeed? Or find intrigue in Thorin's descent? "Stakes" in a movie is really weird. Like do you actually care about the premise of LotR? It's not even our world. If mankind dies in Middle-Earth it doesn't effect you directly in any way.

And in general the story is just a bit more flimsy because it was written for children.
 
I was not aware that it is a children's story. In retrospect, that seems to explain quite a bit. Thank you for the explanation.
 
D6AMIA6N said:
I have a question too. I've seen the first two Hobbit movies, why is it that we care if the Dwarves go back to their homeland? At least in Lord of the Rings, the bad guys were hell bent on world domination, enslaving all of mankind. The premise of the Hobbit is really just about the dwarves getting back to the Lonely Mountain? Being serious here.
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I've seen other people bring this up and I just don't get it. The Hobbit isn't supposed to be as epic. It's about a what is essentially a victorian era British man being dragged out of the doldrums of his day-to-day life and forced to use his wits to overcome challenges outside his comfort zone. It's supposed to be a fun adventure with a likeable guy.

All the problems with the movie trilogy stem from them trying to make the story more epic than it actually was.
 
Yes the point in the Hobbit is that Bilbo goes on an adventure while he doesn't have to. Most hobbits are peaceful, almost lazy people who wouldn't want a drop of excitement in their life. Bilbo had the choice to stay peacefully at home without facing any danger ever, but he decided otherwise. It wouldn't be the same story if he had to go there because "hobbit-town" was in danger.
 
Right from the Hobbit.

Undoubtedly that was what brought the dragon. Dragons steal gold and jewels, you know, from men and elves and dwarves, wherever they can find them; and they guard their plunder as long as they live (which is practically for ever, unless they are killed), and never enjoy a brass ring of it. Indeed they hardly know a good bit of work from a bad, though they usually have a good notion of the current market value; and they can’t make a thing for themselves, not even mend a little loose scale of their armour.

There was a most specially greedy, strong and wicked worm called Smaug.

After that there were no dwarves left alive inside, and he took all their wealth for himself. Probably, for that is the dragons’ way, he has piled it all up in a great heap far inside, and sleeps on it for a bed.
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So he pretty much wants it because it's gold, and he likes it. That's all there is to it really.
 
Dragons like Smaug are just a... I'm not sure what the correct term is; proxy, metaphor, analogy, symbolic? of that part of human nature that is greedy and selfish. Don't think about it too much. The author just made that dragon that way because it fulfilled the purpose they had in mind.
 
Because it's a fucking childrens book written for 6 year olds dude.

I have no fucking idea why Jackson dragged this out 3 films and made it for mature audiences.

Your real question should be.

Why does New Line like gold so much.
 
D6AMIA6N said:
I have a question too. I've seen the first two Hobbit movies, why is it that we care if the Dwarves go back to their homeland? At least in Lord of the Rings, the bad guys were hell bent on world domination, enslaving all of mankind. The premise of the Hobbit is really just about the dwarves getting back to the Lonely Mountain? Being serious here.
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"Feeling bad for bilbo getting pressured into participation" could work as a reason to buy in. But it sounds like you're asking, "Is this really a story of personal ambition and no global stakes?" rather than "Why do I value the dwarfs in particular?" So that answer probably makes things worse in your eyes, i guess?

There might be some deeper middle earth lore about Gandalf leveraging the dwarfs to clear out something potentially-harmful in case things go horribly wrong later, which they do.

But honestly, the question you're asking is, "Is the reason for the story that's happening here really just that characters want things, and I'm watching their attempts to get it?" That's just kind of how stories work. Not every book is about saving the world.
 
I understand. I was simply surprised with how small the story really is, even though it is made to feel "epic", especially when compared to the LoTR trilogy. As others have stated, it really is simply the story of the dwarves going back to their homeland with the help of a hobbit. I'm fine with that, but was curious as to if I had missed or overlooked a story element that had further consequences for the middle earth universe.
 
I've seen Dragon loving gold/treasures/gems etc in many other fiction as well. even My Little Ponies had that with Spike love eating gems.

anyone know where it originate from?
 
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