Wow, really great post. Thank you for sharing.
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Indie Game Development Discussion Thread | Of Being Professionally Poor
- Thread starter chubigans
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Wow, really great post. Thank you for sharing.
Most roguelikes hide the random generation process. If it takes long enough to build, there's usually a loading screen where it either says loading or "building" or "generating" or "reticulating splines" or something like that. Maybe to obfuscate the map. Maybe because visualizing the generation could look bad. Maybe both, or something else.
I was debugging my map generator and visualizing it step-by-step. It occurred to me that this might be something that entertains the player to watch.
It takes about two seconds when I slow it down like that, but the processing isn't very intense and it could easily all fit inside a single frame. My reason for bringing this up and my question to people who like offering random design input is should I leave the map display up for regular play? After generation, the in-game map would only show visited or "discovered" rooms in the stage, but I thought it'd be neat for players to get a flash of what the whole stage is like and how it was created to begin with.
Thoughts?
I was debugging my map generator and visualizing it step-by-step. It occurred to me that this might be something that entertains the player to watch.
It takes about two seconds when I slow it down like that, but the processing isn't very intense and it could easily all fit inside a single frame. My reason for bringing this up and my question to people who like offering random design input is should I leave the map display up for regular play? After generation, the in-game map would only show visited or "discovered" rooms in the stage, but I thought it'd be neat for players to get a flash of what the whole stage is like and how it was created to begin with.
Thoughts?
mantrakid
Member
Most roguelikes hide the random generation process. If it takes long enough to build, there's usually a loading screen where it either says loading or "building" or "generating" or "reticulating splines" or something like that. Maybe to obfuscate the map. Maybe because visualizing the generation could look bad. Maybe both, or something else.
I was debugging my map generator and visualizing it step-by-step. It occurred to me that this might be something that entertains the player to watch.
It takes about two seconds when I slow it down like that, but the processing isn't very intense and it could easily all fit inside a single frame. My reason for bringing this up and my question to people who like offering random design input is should I leave the map display up for regular play? After generation, the in-game map would only show visited or "discovered" rooms in the stage, but I thought it'd be neat for players to get a flash of what the whole stage is like and how it was created to begin with.
Thoughts?
Super cool but i feel like it shows you 'the answer' assuming the initial path that flashes is the 'true path' so it almost forces me to want to try and remember that path for the sake of reaching the goal and it almost eliminates a sense of exploration from the mix.. now the focus becomes whether or not i can remember that initial path because its shown to me because if its being shown to me for a brief second, it must be being shown to me for a reason.. ie, for me to try and remember it.
thats my gamer voice.
my game dev voice is that it looks super fucking cool.
[/IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ohYhYz1.png[/IMG]
More fires! Had a very productive 2 hour stream of me trying to optimise fire spread, only to make it significantly worse, but way cooler.
Screenshot is the after effects of a bunch of compounding stuff go wrong within the game and the code.
I love everything that you're doing. Keep it up!
Correct. The pathing system first plots the primary path and then builds offshoots. Two things of note are that exploring secondary paths is very helpful, and in some cases required, and also it'd be at least ten to fifteen minutes later that the player gets close to the end of the stage, so I'm thinking any memory of what was flashed for the player would be long gone. Obviously this could be gotten around with screenshots or taking a picture with your phone, but I don't care to account for people who go to that trouble.
I guess a third thing worth bringing up is that this game all takes place within a mind or dreamscape (think Psychonauts, Alice: Madness Returns), so the concept of memorizing is tangential to the narrative.
Most roguelikes hide the random generation process. If it takes long enough to build, there's usually a loading screen where it either says loading or "building" or "generating" or "reticulating splines" or something like that. Maybe to obfuscate the map. Maybe because visualizing the generation could look bad. Maybe both, or something else.
I was debugging my map generator and visualizing it step-by-step. It occurred to me that this might be something that entertains the player to watch.
It takes about two seconds when I slow it down like that, but the processing isn't very intense and it could easily all fit inside a single frame. My reason for bringing this up and my question to people who like offering random design input is should I leave the map display up for regular play? After generation, the in-game map would only show visited or "discovered" rooms in the stage, but I thought it'd be neat for players to get a flash of what the whole stage is like and how it was created to begin with.
Thoughts?
As a player I would like the idea from a loading standpoint as far as having something interesting to look at while I wait.
But if there is exploration involved, and the entire map isn't revealed during playtime, I think it would be detrimental. (Reiterating what mantrakid was mentioning)
What about a visualization on the loading screen that uses your map generation algorithms in a different way? I can't think of a good visual at the moment, but it could be a good way to show off your generator without revealing the map to the player.
As far as waiting goes, part of what I was saying is that no waiting has to happen at all. The generation is segregated and efficient enough that the only downtime is a frame or two here and there, (one frame to build the basic stage layout as shown in the GIF, and one or two frames when first entering each of the rooms shown). So this isn't covering a loading screen, although I'm sure I'd get many players thinking as much.
I guess ultimately I could set it as a game option and have the players decide for themselves, but it feels neater if I pick one thing and say "this is the best way to play". Or maybe whether it appears is part of the difficulty selection, should I include that.
Maybe this doesn't change anything, but the reason why I said exploring secondary paths is required in part is that two or three of the rooms in the primary path are gated, the keys for which are found off the beaten path.
That's true, but I'm not convinced it is something I should worry about.
Anyway, thanks for all the input and suggestions everyone. You guys are the best!
I got totally caught up in destruction and made this experiment "game" over the weekend called "Where Is My Hammer":
Knock Knock
It is car! It can drive: https://twitter.com/TocoGamescom/status/536615530976018432
The best way is through it.
You can download it here: http://tocogames.itch.io/where-is-my-hammer-destroy-everything
Please give it a vote here: http://jams.gamejolt.io/indiesvspewdiepie/games/where-is-my-hammer/39931
Nice, we actually talked about it in our game class today. Any chance of Mac version?
My greenlight's at 20% the votes it needs to get into the top 100, after the second day of being up. Looks to be doing okay, but I'm not really sure how I'm doing compared to everyone else who's done it. I expect that there's a huge vote dropoff after the next few days.
But, still, it's fun to program new features. My heart's always been focused on the thrill of prototyping new ideas, and I hope I have the same kind of enthusiasm for long-term problem solving that I'll need later in dev when I actually need to worry about fixing all the small issues I left along the way.
But, still, it's fun to program new features. My heart's always been focused on the thrill of prototyping new ideas, and I hope I have the same kind of enthusiasm for long-term problem solving that I'll need later in dev when I actually need to worry about fixing all the small issues I left along the way.
I feel like I don't know enough about your game to give valuable design feedback about this being a good or bad thing to show, but from a players perspective it is certainly an interesting thing to see.
Hope that helps in some way ><
Jacksinthe
Banned
Great stuff in here all. I've been away from development with more health issues the past few. Needed a break. Will hit things again soon. Just felt like saying hi to everyone and saying i like what i see while I'm coherent this morning and not wanting to punch my stupid body for being dumb. Been a mess the past few weeks so my mind has been running a gazillion miles per hour trying to deal with shit so if I have said anything here or elsewhere that doesn't make much sense, my apologies. Keep on rocking the good shit, folks.
That's actually really well compared to us and the others I've heard. We are at a bit less with nearing two weeks now. The dropoff should hit soon (I think it was day 3/4 for us, but that was Sunday anyway), but I'd say you're in a good place given how amazingly slow Greenlight seems to be at the moment.
You're probably done gathering input, but I wanted to give this last tidbit anyways. If the generation/level loading happens within 1 or 2 frames, I'd find it impressive to just not have a loading screen at all. (unless I'm misunderstanding things) Quick changes between levels/rooms without loading screens is something that's very impressive.
Excitement building! Glad they've released it.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
saw this on twitter.I wish this could be me again. I disallow myself to indulge.. for the greater good.
lol.... I have sooooo many started / abandoned projects over the years. I WILL FINISH STARDIVER.... now I just need to repeat that 100 times an hour daily.
I used to do this a lot. here's my stencyl graveyard. much of this is just shit I did as I was learning the program. But there's an idea in there I'd like to look at again later. It involves lots of little creatures on screen and you use the mouse/your finger to blow them around. I never quite knew exactly what the object of the game would be, just that it could look very very cool.
Michael Armbrust
Member
That stencyl graveyard is really cool. I got to play Ghost Song!
My hype level for your game just increased 10 fold.
well that was a little test I put up that was built FROM the original ghost song flash version, which doesn't much resemble the current game.
but thanks superNESjoe
Member
We just launched on Desura today, and we're running a sale to celebrate. We knocked 40% off for a $2.99 price for a few days.
Our livestream contest is still going on too. First person to beat the game with a livestream or stream archive to prove it gets a free copy of every game we ever make. There's a close race between two people who have unlocked the final level, but neither has been able to beat it.
Our livestream contest is still going on too. First person to beat the game with a livestream or stream archive to prove it gets a free copy of every game we ever make. There's a close race between two people who have unlocked the final level, but neither has been able to beat it.
I'm going trough a phase where I'm not sure if I should keep working on my current project or not.
My interest is starting to disappear and what the game doesn't feel like it's turning out very fun.
I'm telling myself that this is mostly a learning experience and even if it doesn't turn out any good that it's good to finish it but my mind just wants to do other ideas.
It's hard.
My interest is starting to disappear and what the game doesn't feel like it's turning out very fun.
I'm telling myself that this is mostly a learning experience and even if it doesn't turn out any good that it's good to finish it but my mind just wants to do other ideas.
It's hard.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Honestly, get a second pair of eyes on it instead of second guessing yourself.
That's good advice.
I think I'll try to get someone to play as soon as I've implemented most of the basic gameplay systems.
some random observations.
- making a new prototype often feels like everything's moving fast-- because it is, because you're excited about the new idea and building everything from scratch and it's totally new. you are very productive when making a prototype, and this leads to the impression that making a full game wouldn't be that hard because making a cool prototype wasn't that hard.
- actual game development, once you're well passed the prototype, is a slog marked by periods of wheel spinning and various degrees of idling and tinkering and doodling and then spurts of high productivity -- triggered by various things, but often just having to do with motivation/inspiration/outside requirements (you have a deadline enforced).
- if you stayed productive at all times, if you were some kind of android or one of those rare indviduals who focuses like a laser at all times - or someone who benefits from a mild case of autism (not making a joke -- I have known two people in my life who were functioning normal people with mild cases of autism who were PRODUCTIVE AS SHIT -- POWERHOUSES) -- then making a full game really wouldn't take that long.
- I wish I could be focused and energetic an productive at all times. so far I haven't figured out how.
- making a new prototype often feels like everything's moving fast-- because it is, because you're excited about the new idea and building everything from scratch and it's totally new. you are very productive when making a prototype, and this leads to the impression that making a full game wouldn't be that hard because making a cool prototype wasn't that hard.
- actual game development, once you're well passed the prototype, is a slog marked by periods of wheel spinning and various degrees of idling and tinkering and doodling and then spurts of high productivity -- triggered by various things, but often just having to do with motivation/inspiration/outside requirements (you have a deadline enforced).
- if you stayed productive at all times, if you were some kind of android or one of those rare indviduals who focuses like a laser at all times - or someone who benefits from a mild case of autism (not making a joke -- I have known two people in my life who were functioning normal people with mild cases of autism who were PRODUCTIVE AS SHIT -- POWERHOUSES) -- then making a full game really wouldn't take that long.
- I wish I could be focused and energetic an productive at all times. so far I haven't figured out how.
Notch knows how to do it. Man, I wish I could make my brain work like his.
Casey Muratori, the guy doing the Handmade Hero stream, also seems to do it and works crazy fast sometimes.
It seems to involve being able to self-discipline to get rid of distractions (unlike me -- I have Facebook open when I should have it closed), being able to focus on a very narrow issue and think logically about what might cause it, how to analyze it, and so forth. A personality like this can make for a very effective programmer. However, it can also make for someone that people get really annoyed at. If you use that same focus on a point in an argument, people will just get frustrated or emotional instead of trying to analyze it like you would a program. Striking a balance can be difficult.
Please pardon the sidetrack: There was an interesting and scary concept in a scifi book I once read (A Deepness in the Sky?). Spoilers in case anyone cares and hasn't read it. It's about a brain technology used.
An oppressive group of humans on a certain planet accidentally happened across a brain virus of sorts that could be controlled by an MRI-like machine. For people whose brains were properly compatible with the virus, the handlers / those in charge could "focus" them. If someone was a good pilot, or a good programmer, or a good translator, their brain could be tuned down where they literally cared about practically NOTHING outside of their area of focus. All the time. This allowed the unfocused people, the handlers, the rulers, etc. to treat these people as very sophisticated machines, basically. If someone messes up, you tune their brain a bit. You can analyze much better than a normal computer, and so forth.
Naturally, other humans were horrified about this, but the dictators using the technology argued that progress has always depended on people "with no lives", and they were just taking those sorts of people to the logical extreme.
Naturally, other humans were horrified about this, but the dictators using the technology argued that progress has always depended on people "with no lives", and they were just taking those sorts of people to the logical extreme.
Hopefully no one ever manages a technology like that in reality.
James Coote
Neo Member
I've found you need the right confluence of circumstances to be fully productive, but it does happen on a reasonably regular basis for me.
First you need a little bit of motivation. Something to fire you up. Next, plan a week long (sprint) cycle with tasks you can knock on the head relatively quickly. I personally have a mantra that if any feature takes more than a week to implement, drop it, and that fits in with the weekly cycle.
Next you need a clear schedule. No going to the pub to meet your mates in the evening, or football match on the TV for a good straight 5 or 6 days in a row. Any more than that without a break and you'll burn out, but make sure the break is just one or maybe two days, and that those days are back to back. Having your weekend/break days interspersed throughout the week is a productivity killer. Work Monday, Tuesday, visiting family Wednesday, work again Thursday, down the pub Friday evening. No. Just doesn't work. There's a reason the rest of the working world has the rigid Monday-Friday working week structure.
Also, make sure you do your food shopping for the week, and that it's healthy stuff. Pizza is a productivity killer as it slows down your metabolism and sits heavily in your stomach next morning. Equally, going out to buy a sandwich at lunch time "for a break / to get out the house" ends up taking your mind off work and being a massive distraction.
On the days themselves, closing the web browser / turning off the phone helps. If I really need to get something done, I'll work a 9 to 5 and only after 5pm allow myself to check my emails or twitter. 99% of emails are not so urgent and not so requiring of brain power that you have to deal with them before 5pm. Save when your brain is fresh in the morning for problem solving / laying down new code. After lunch for bug fixing and late afternoon for tidying up, commenting code
Finally, for me, it helps to have background noise when I'm creating new stuff, but not when I'm getting frustrated with some intractable problem or bug. I have loads of trance mixes that just go on for hours, so I don't need to worry about changing the music or get distracted by what album I'm listening to next. Plus it's the sort of music that doesn't demand listening attention.
For some people though, the occasional hour+ break to pick a new album / playlist makes for a good way to split up the day without losing the flow, so whatever works for you.
Mystic River
Member
I have one more observation... once you made many unfinished prototypes you come back and say this is going to be the one, and use all the knowledge you learnt from previous projects, like never do this and that. Finally you start a new project and it turns out to use the same concepts and things from the don'ts from the past but using new ideas to solve those issues finally!. For me, my first try to make a game with XNA started with something like a simple RTS, and I found that there is no way I could run that on XBOX360 , so I dropped it because I didn't have the power to do it, at the end Junkcraft Armada is the same concept in steroids but for PC since I gave up again the XBOX version due to speed constraints.
Since you mentioned only androids or uber productive people can do this without procrastinating in the infinitum, I decided that maybe, just maybe... if I challenge myself to finish this project for real I will need to take some drastic actions, so I started a daily blog and publish every single day of my development day, so far I haven't missed a single day since I started at http://mysticrivergames.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html
So I can really feel if I am moving forward or not at all after that, I don't want to cheat and see if it really works, at least is allowing me to move forward without feeling that I am falling behind. Once I release a pre-alpha playable version people will provide me more feedback as I go when looking at the blog daily updates and I will feel even more pressure to move forward.
and trance music or things alike, even space music helps a lot too! yeah! I listen to things like that to keep me busy
programming new features is the best thing about making games
think my fire propagation is done for now. Now to add fire extinguishers, and then... at some point code all the networking interactions into it all.
I had a blast playing on your site, I made such a mess haha good work!
I've been working on new updates for my Wii U game, ZaciSa's Last Stand, as well as working on a sequel for it (won't call it ZaciSa lol). Right now I've been experimenting on bringing it down from 1080p to 720p. With less space, I am more easily able to do 60FPS, instead of 30FPS. I'm really amazed at how well and smooth it is, even on the busiest map with lots going on, still smooth.
Man.. I should have really did 720p from the start. 60FPS is much better then the 20FPS(essentially) that was going on on 1st release. lol
Man.. I should have really did 720p from the start. 60FPS is much better then the 20FPS(essentially) that was going on on 1st release. lol
Voted yet?
Here: http://jams.gamejolt.io/indiesvspewdiepie/games/where-is-my-hammer/39931
Here: http://jams.gamejolt.io/indiesvspewdiepie/games/where-is-my-hammer/39931
I still have to look into how that can be done.
Voted yet?
Here: http://jams.gamejolt.io/indiesvspewdiepie/games/where-is-my-hammer/39931
I still have to look into how that can be done.
i love this.. I can just hear someone pissed off "FUCK THIS FUCK THAT FUCK THIS TOO FUCK THAT OVER THERE AGGGHHHHHH RAGGEEE!" Love it, such a good concept.
is this blueprint?
I think (as you may reference) it does depend on the person though. One's brain being fresh in the morning is practically an alien concept to me.
On the other hand, there are those who LOVE early mornings and their body/brain works great with them.Can UE4 not just build straight for OSX? I'm not entirely familiar with the engine, but I thought it had support for that.
Really neat gif btw, voted.
edit: Yep
VisceralBowl
Member
IIRC it can. It's in the package menu.
Thx, yea it is all made in Blueprint. Destruction stuff gave a lot of headache though. I had to build everything perfect grid based because overlapping stuff could just make stuff blow up when you touch it. There are also lots of glitches in it.
Did not show up for me, do you have to run the Unreal editor on mac for it?
Looks like you do have to be on a Mac to build for OSX. link
If you don't have access to one PM me. I'd be happy to build it for you and send it back.
I was looking up the next ludam dare date and info and noticed their list of live streaming of development. Do any of you guys stream your dev? I'm thinking of trying it out. Maybe it will keep me on task a bit more. If any of you do stream dev, where do you list it as avail for view? I would assume ludam's list is for active ludams (though there are a lot of misc streams on there now when a dare isn't going on).
Streaming for a while here if anyone cared to watch me create bugs
http://www.twitch.tv/friken0
Streaming for a while here if anyone cared to watch me create bugs
http://www.twitch.tv/friken0
Thanks for the offer! I have a old macbook here but I'm not sure if it can run UE4 so I might get back to you on it.
Btw, with the UDK it is possible to make a mac build on a PC which is a bit odd considering UE4 is the next step.
Diablohead
Member
I was looking up the next ludam dare date and info and noticed their list of live streaming of development. Do any of you guys stream your dev? I'm thinking of trying it out. Maybe it will keep me on task a bit more. If any of you do stream dev, where do you list it as avail for view? I would assume ludam's list is for active ludams (though there are a lot of misc streams on there now when a dare isn't going on).
Streaming for a while here if anyone cared to watch me create bugs
http://www.twitch.tv/friken0
I did some streams of my sprite work the other week, cut back until I have a more solid base to show off on video though, I can take 4+ hours just to get a few frames done heh.
Thanks for the reminder. December 5th is coming up fast.I was looking up the next ludam dare date and info and noticed their list of live streaming of development. Do any of you guys stream your dev? I'm thinking of trying it out. Maybe it will keep me on task a bit more. If any of you do stream dev, where do you list it as avail for view? I would assume ludam's list is for active ludams (though there are a lot of misc streams on there now when a dare isn't going on).
Streaming for a while here if anyone cared to watch me create bugs
http://www.twitch.tv/friken0
Even if I had a computer setup that could reliably stream, I think I would opt out of streaming, though. One of the key things in ludum dare is minimizing distractions, and I feel like having a stream going could actively be distracting for me.
And Unity allows cross-platform building, so it's a little annoying that UE4 doesn't have that functionality.
UE4 chugs on my GT650m, but it's enough to do small dev work and builds just fine. Let me know. I'd love to see that little stress reliever game on OSX.
Candescence
Member
Lack of Wii U support is still the biggest dealbreaker for me when it comes to considering using UE4, there's no legitimate reason for not supporting it when it also supports freaking mobile. I want my games to be on as many platforms as possible, digital distribution makes more platforms an opportunity rather than a risk.
Unity, thankfully, is actually on the ball in this department.
Unity, thankfully, is actually on the ball in this department.
Hey there, I just wanted to post about our new game, Deadnaut, which launched last night. It was built in Unity; I've made a small post on Reddit explaining some of the things we did.
Now, about the game!
We also have a trailer, which shows off some of the gameplay, including character generation and cloning.
Here are a couple more screenshots:
This is actually our second game, the first was Zafehouse: Diaries. It went on to become a bit of a cult hit (to our surprise!). Released in September 2012, it's most comparable to the more recent This War of Mine, though Z
involves a bit more reading. If you have any questions about the game, or games development in general, please let me know. I've been a developer in some capacity for almost seven years (professional from 2007, went indie in late 2011), so hopefully I can provide some insight into the process.
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