Inside 9/11

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http://www.nationalgeographic.com/channel/inside911/

Anyone else watching this? It's pretty good so far and the topic of terrorism has always been of interest to me even way before 9/11. It also shows so far the many blunders of the Clinton administation when it came to hunting down OBL. One of the plans was CIA mission to capture OBL in a town in Afghanistan but the Clinton administration said no because they feared innocent civilian deaths. Couple of months later the bombings in Kenya and Tanazinia.
 
Of course it's all Clinton's fault. I for one am completely unsurprised by this thread and who started it.

Go watch "The Power of Nightmares" now.
 
The_Sorrow said:
It also shows so far the many blunders of the Clinton administation when it came to hunting down OBL.

Good thing Bush caught that SOB and gave him a good whatfor. Hell I shudder to think what that asshole Clinton would have done had he been president during all of this. Might have gotten all distracted when they couldn't catch him, (because lets face it, when you are getting BJs in the oval office not much you can focus on, AMIRITE?!), and then tried to change the focus of what we had to do to fight terrorism and invaded a country that had no ties to the people who attacked us or had any weapons that could do us harm. Hell, he probably would have gone one step further and made that country that was once inhospitable to the terrorist that hate our freedome so much, and made it a veritable breeding ground for the rag heads who would rape our women and children the first change they got!

Yep.. good thing Bush, our savior, got that SOB OBL. We can rest easy at night knowing that mad man is behind bars.

God Bless Geroge W. Bush, and God Bless America!
 
Red Mercury said:
Yep.. good thing Bush, our savior, got that SOB OBL. We can rest easy at night knowing that mad man is behind bars.

We may have not caught him but what has he done of signifigance since 9-11? I mean Al Qaeda has been crippled ever since the Afghan invasion.
 
Thanks for that Sorrow! If only Bush, our savior, was in office back then!

I mean, look how quick we caught OBL AFTER 9/11, with half the fucking planet looking for him, the most powerful army at our disposal, and him being put responsible for every problem that has plagued humanity since the beginning of time.

I mean, if under these conditions he was caught THIS fast Id wager Bush could do a pretty darn good job back then!

Err- wait a minute..

Dumbass.

EDIT: Just read your previous post. Crippled? Is crippled defined as being given responsibility for an attack every 2 days or so? I suppose you will now argue that terrorism has actually decreased since 911.

Again, dumbass.

Oh, and would you not consider suicide attacks every single day, and attacks in countries that have never been attacked before, on a scale never thought of before, a growth in islamic extremism? On a scale of which we have never seen before?

Dumbass statement number 3. Id suggest you stop posting. It could prove to be unhealthy for you and others. Just a suggestion from someone who cares about you.
 
The_Sorrow said:
I'm not saying its all his fault. But he slept while Islamic extremism was growing rapidly. He could've done a lot more then he did.

Well, at least he didn't actively encourage it like Reagan.
LOL OH WAIT

believe it or not back then we used to have a system of justice where we couldn't just detain random people on suspicion with shaky evidence at unsanctioned prisons outside of international law, where we actually cared about things like "unnecessary civilian deaths" and "needless waste of human life". I know, hard to believe that was how things were in the pre-9/11 world.
 
The_Sorrow said:
We may have not caught him but what has he done of signifigance since 9-11? I mean Al Qaeda has been crippled ever since the Afghan invasion.

well, I think Spain and England would disgree with that statement.

Along with 95% of the population of Iraq ....

But hey, no more attacks in the good old U S of A! Thanks must be a-ok right now!
 
Raoul Duke said:
Go watch "The Power of Nightmares" now.


And buy into the false premise that all the terrorists were destroyed in Afghanistan?

The documentary also forgets to explain the 10 years after the cold war when Clinton and popular liberal leaders headed the major powers of the world where there was general stability and there was no need to use 'nightmares' to keep the population in control.

The point of the documentary, that is valid, is that in times of crises, governments can use the crisis to gain extraordinary power. But I think George Lucas do a better job of showing that in Episode III than having to sit through The Power of Nightmares, since that point they were trying to make could have been made in less than an hour.
 
Deku said:
And buy into the false premise that all the terrorists were destroyed in Afghanistan?

The documentary also forgets to explain the 10 years after the cold war when Clinton and popular liberal leaders headed the major powers of the world where there was general stability and there was no need to use 'nightmares' to keep the population in control.

The point of the documentary, that is valid, is that in times of crises, governments can use the crisis to gain extraordinary power. But I think George Lucas do a better job of showing that in Episode III than having to sit through The Power of Nightmares, since that point they were trying to make could have been made in less than an hour.
Yes, but then you would have to watch Episode III.
 
The_Sorrow said:
We may have not caught him but what has he done of signifigance since 9-11? I mean Al Qaeda has been crippled ever since the Afghan invasion.

What. The. Fuck.

Dog in meat grinder pic, STAT.
 
Clinton made his share of mistakes to be sure, but thus far, compared to the number and quality that this current administration has made, it seems trite in comparison. With regards to the health of Al-Qaeda, I'll excerpt an excellent article:

These downwardly mobile slum dwellers and upwardly mobile achievers replicate in western Europe the two social types that formed the base of Islamist movements in developing countries such as Algeria, Egypt, and Malaysia: the residents of shantytowns and the devout bourgeoisie. As in the September 11 attacks, the educated tend to form the leadership cadre, with the plebeians providing the muscle. No Chinese wall separates first-generation outsiders from second-generation insiders; indeed, the former typically find their recruits among the latter. Hofstad's Syrian imam mentored Bouyeri; the notorious one-eyed imam Abu Hamza al-Masri coached Moussaoui in London. A decade ago in France, the Algerian Armed Islamic Group proselytized beurs (the French-born children of North African immigrants) and turned them into the jihadists who terrorized train passengers during the 1990s. But post-September 11 recruitment appears more systematic and strategic. Al Qaeda's drives focus on the second generation. And if jihad recruiters sometimes find sympathetic ears underground, among gangs or in jails, today they are more likely to score at university campuses, prep schools, and even junior high schools.

THE IRAQ EFFECT

According to senior counterintelligence officials, classified intelligence briefings, and wiretaps, jihadists extended their European operations after the roundups that followed September 11 and then again, with fresh energy, after the invasion of Iraq. Osama bin Laden now provides encouragement and strategic orientation to scores of relatively autonomous European jihadist networks that assemble for specific missions, draw operatives from a pool of professionals and apprentices, strike, and then dissolve, only to regroup later.

Someone summon Mandark so we can send this kid home.
 
The_Sorrow said:
We may have not caught him but what has he done of signifigance since 9-11? I mean Al Qaeda has been crippled ever since the Afghan invasion.

AS many others have since pointed out to you while I was out attempting to regain some sense of sanity after reading your post, they have done a lot. The bombings in Madrid, and in London of major note. There have also been bombings in Egypt and Beirut, although as far as I know they have not been officially declared Al Qaeda attacks, but are believed to have been supported by or done by a faction of that group. We also can not forget the daily violence in Iraq, which is largely backed by terrorsts.

I would say that your world view is sincerly lacking from your above comment, but its obvious that you have no world view.

But since you brought it up, man that Afghan invasion... sure glad we stuck around there and finished the job. I mean... again, lets thank our sweet lord that Bush is in office and not some limp wristed liberal who would have cut tale and run after starting a war to find OBL, only to abandon it months later. I mean, nail in coffin there. Not a base of operations left in Afghanistan, lets raise the flag again in honor of our fine president and his righteous views. His global struggle against extremism sure is a just and well thought out plan of start a war, and finish it before moving on. I know that again, George W. Bush has my family interest at heart when he stopped those dirty afghanis from farming out opiates. Keeps the drugs off the streets where my little Johny and Suzie play.
 
The_Sorrow said:
I'm not saying its all his fault. But he slept while Islamic extremism was growing rapidly. He could've done a lot more then he did.

and i for one, am glad that george bush is now at the helm and everything is under control.

sigh of relief@shrinking islamic extremism.
 
Clinton could have done more than he did, but let's not forget whose watch we were under when 9/11 actually occurred. Who was on vacation on his ranch for months? Who was on vacation, on his ranch, and not reacting to intelligence documents labeled "Bin Laden determined to strike in the US," and tons of other documents and terrorist chatter, all pointing to a "big event" coming soon?

I love how Clinton-haters blame him for 9/11. Sure, he could have done more to get Bin Laden and in retrospect, he knows he should have. But it was George W. Bush that was President when 9/11 happened. It was George Bush that failed to take any measures whatsoever, despite many alerts and warning in the months leading up to 9/11. It was George Bush who sat there paralyzed for however many minutes it was after hearing about it. It was George Bush that, 4 years later, still hasn't done what needs to be done to get Bin Laden. Get that? Bush, not Clinton should take the brunt of the blame. Not all of it, but a hell of a lot more than Clinton.
 
Blaming Clinton or Bush is beside the point. 9/11 was a complete failure of our entire system, down to the screeners at the airports.

Though I haven't actually seen it, I've heard that "The Power of Nightmares" has lost some of its punch since 7/7.
 
I just wish the Republicans would admit they fucked up about SOMETHING so they can move on from what has become the annoying and disgraceful (to the families and victims) political deabte tool that is 9/11 and the intelligence factor.
 
Guileless said:
Though I haven't actually seen it, I've heard that "The Power of Nightmares" has lost some of its punch since 7/7.
Well, not since the reports are pointing out that it was an independent act and not Al-Qaeda related.
 
I watched the first part of this series this morning. First impression is it's pretty dry and boring to watch. Don't kinow if I'll even bother with the second part. National Geographic should stick to what they do best, and leave this kind of stuff to someone else.
 
Hyoushi said:
Well, not since the reports are pointing out that it was an independent act and not Al-Qaeda related.

I haven't seen any hard conclusions either way, but perhaps you have better sources that you should share with us. My point is that Tony Blair did not 1) orchestrate the bombings, 2)blame them on an innocent group of people for political purposes, or 3) make Zawhiri claim responsiblility and talk about how more of the same was on the way.
 
The_Sorrow said:
We may have not caught him but what has he done of signifigance since 9-11? I mean Al Qaeda has been crippled ever since the Afghan invasion.
THIS IS TOTALLY TRUE.

ASK SPAIN.
 
Kindbudmaster said:
I watched the first part of this series this morning. First impression is it's pretty dry and boring to watch. Don't kinow if I'll even bother with the second part. National Geographic should stick to what they do best, and leave this kind of stuff to someone else.

r u serious?

:lol :lol :lol
 
catfish said:
and i for one, am glad that george bush is now at the helm and everything is under control.

sigh of relief@shrinking islamic extremism.

It doesn't change the fact that Clinton's corrupt admin. was worrying more about covering up his sex scandal then fighting worldwide terrorism. Bush is doing a good job so far of cleaning up.

whytemyke said:
THIS IS TOTALLY TRUE.

ASK SPAIN.

Wow, an incident here and there. Sure its sad but I would say terrorism overall has decreased since 9-11. And hell you have to commend the way western intelligence agencies are working together to stop world terrorism from striking on there soil. And you also have to commend the fact that there have be NO attacks on our soil since 9-11.
 
The_Sorrow said:
It doesn't change the fact that Clinton's corrupt admin. was worrying more about covering up his sex scandal then fighting worldwide terrorism. Bush is doing a good job so far of cleaning up.

oh save me jeebus.
 
The_Sorrow said:
It doesn't change the fact that Clinton's corrupt admin. was worrying more about covering up his sex scandal then fighting worldwide terrorism. Bush is doing a good job so far of cleaning up.



Wow, an incident here and there. Sure its sad but I would say terrorism overall has decreased since 9-11. And hell you have to commend the way western intelligence agencies are working together to stop world terrorism from striking on there soil. And you also have to commend the fact that there have be NO attacks on our soil since 9-11.

Wow, simply wow. How can you say theres only been a couple of attacks over the last couple of years? There are a couple of attacks that kill dozens of people everyday in Iraq, lets not even mention the attacks in Bali, Spain, and England because that will make you look even more foolish.
 
The_Sorrow said:
It doesn't change the fact that Clinton's corrupt admin. was worrying more about covering up his sex scandal then fighting worldwide terrorism. Bush is doing a good job so far of cleaning up.
Wait, who was it that was obsessed with Clinton's sex scandal?
And yeah, Bush has done a great job "cleaning up" after 9/11, what with ignoring the leader behind the attack- Bin Laden, and invading a country that's been proven to have had nothing to do with 9/11. Reeeeeeeal good job.

You dumb shit.

Wow, an incident here and there. Sure its sad but I would say terrorism overall has decreased since 9-11.
I didn't know shit could be this dumb. Terrorism has decreased since 9/11? Have you heard of a great new post-9/11-world invention called "the news"? And if you're talking about terrorist attacks against the US directly....it's been four years since 9/11. How many Islamic terrorist attacks were there on US soil in the four years preceding 9/11? Or ever, for that matter?
 
The_Sorrow said:
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/channel/inside911/

Anyone else watching this? It's pretty good so far and the topic of terrorism has always been of interest to me even way before 9/11. It also shows so far the many blunders of the Clinton administation when it came to hunting down OBL. One of the plans was CIA mission to capture OBL in a town in Afghanistan but the Clinton administration said no because they feared innocent civilian deaths. Couple of months later the bombings in Kenya and Tanazinia.


Part 2 is on right now, and the thing is I don't need to even watch the screen. Sept. 11 is laser-engraved into my brain; I can't actually watch too much of it, everytime I see the footage of the planes hitting the towers, and their ultimate collapse, I get physically ill.

Putting the blame for this on Clinton is wrong, simply because despite everything else, Clinton's balls weren't made of crystal. I suggest you read up on Osama bin Laden in the 90s, and how despite everything, there was no easy way to get our hands on him; even if we did, it was impossible to hang sustainable charges on the bastard. I don't know if you can recall, but before 9/11, evidence needed to be gathered before someone was locked up.

But since you're so intent on blaming the butterfly, let's do that. Let's take our Wayback Machine back to the 80s when we were gladly selling weapons to bin Laden and other fighters in Afghanistan, hoping to get the Communists out of the country. It's our dirty laundry, but you need to smell it. The west helped create bin Laden as he is today, all in fear of the USSR spreading its influence further. We sold weapons to Iraq to help them fight Iran, along with other countries. The joke would be funnier if it weren't so completely on the ball: "We knew Saddam had weapons of mass destruction because we kept the receipts."

What happened that day was the culmination of decades of a middle east policy that can at best be described as rife with double-standards, and at worst completely focused on making sure we got our oil nice and cheap, damn the consequences. There's no absolute, one person to blame. What is true is that George W. Bush was the last line of defense against the attack. But while he was on the first of what would become 50+ vacations to his ranch while in office, he let it slip through his fingers. He and his staff were given a memo that quite literally spelled it out for them. That Osama was "determined to attack" inside the United States. Even that wasn't enough.

Condi Rice had the big brass ones to later say that since there were no details - that since the pieces weren't fit together for her - "no one could've known." A long, far cry from one of the President's own heroes, Harry Truman. Apparently, the Bush administration's view is "The buck stops there." The last chance to stop it, gone. All because of a lethal combination of stubborness and arrogance.

The_Sorrow said:
Wow, an incident here and there. Sure its sad but I would say terrorism overall has decreased since 9-11.

The U.S. State Department disagrees with you.
 
demon said:
Wait, who was it that was obsessed with Clinton's sex scandal?
And yeah, Bush has done a great job "cleaning up" after 9/11, what with ignoring the leader behind the attack- Bin Laden, and invading a country that's been proven to have had nothing to do with 9/11. Reeeeeeeal good job.

When have we ignored Bin Laden? Bin Laden has been kept to hiding in holes and could be dead for all we know at this point. And since when was 9-11 the reason we invaded Iraq? Making stuff up I see.

You dumb shit.

When all else fails, personal attacks.

I didn't know shit could be this dumb. Terrorism has decreased since 9/11? Have you heard of a great new post-9/11-world invention called "the news"? And if you're talking about terrorist attacks against the US directly....it's been four years since 9/11. How many Islamic terrorist attacks were there on US soil in the four years preceding 9/11? Or ever, for that matter?

Terrorism has been decreasing worldwide due to better communication between western and arabic governments. Sure there are attacks here and there but overall they've been lower.

Let's take our Wayback Machine back to the 80s when we were gladly selling weapons to bin Laden and other fighters in Afghanistan, hoping to get the Communists out of the country. It's our dirty laundry, but you need to smell it. The west helped create bin Laden as he is today, all in fear of the USSR spreading its influence further. We sold weapons to Iraq to help them fight Iran, along with other countries. The joke would be funnier if it weren't so completely on the ball: "We knew Saddam had weapons of mass destruction because we kept the receipts."

I know that but the weapons that were sold way back when have nothing to day with past or present terrorism from Al Qaeda. It's a totally separate argument that has nothing at all to do with what we're talking about.
 
The_Sorrow said:
Terrorism has been decreasing worldwide due to better communication between western and arabic governments. Sure there are attacks here and there but overall they've been lower.

Again, no. The government's own study confirms that terrorist acts have increased since 9/11/2001.


I know that but the weapons that were sold way back when have nothing to day with past or present terrorism from Al Qaeda. It's a totally separate argument that has nothing at all to do with what we're talking about.

Funny, when "Saddam gassed his own people!" was the Reason of the Day to invade Iraq, nobody seemed to have a problem ignoring that distinction.
 
xsarien said:
Again, no. The government's own study confirms that terrorist acts have increased since 9/11/2001.

Which studies? Are you sure they weren't talking about Iraq?

Funny, when "Saddam gassed his own people!" was the Reason of the Day to invade Iraq, nobody seemed to have a problem ignoring that distinction.

But that has nothing at all to do with the argument.
 
The_Sorrow said:
Which studies? Are you sure they weren't talking about Iraq?

Oh? What studies are your linking to when you declare "Terrorism has been decreasing worldwide due to better communication between western and arabic governments. Sure there are attacks here and there but overall they've been lower."?
 
My 2 cents...

I'll say what I've said in the past again...

From what my experience tells me of prior events in history...

non-investigations-by-rigged-committees, no-one-held-accountable-but-instead-promoted, highly-beneficial-to-the-agendas-of-those-in-power...

these things spell only one thing...
 
The_Sorrow said:
When all else fails, personal attacks.

:lol

what else do you expect when you're trying to have a discussion with someone who makes shit up on the spot and tries to pass it off as fact? Another fun day on the O'Reilly factor?
 
Dan said:

"...incidents including the bloody school seizure in Russia and violence related to the disputed Indian territory of Kashmir."

That would be the reason.

Someone please shut The_Sorrow up.

Someone can't have a differing opinon from the far left radicals on this board?

Slurpy said:
And what the fuck is an 'arabic government'?

What the hell kind of question is that?
 
The_Sorrow said:
Someone can't have a differing opinon from the far left radicals on this board?
Back it up with facts. The assertion that 9/11 is primarily Clinton's fault is laughable, especially with the August memo that Dubya missed as he was clearing brush. Also the idea that there is less terrorism/terrorists in the world today is fucking dumb.

Do me a favor and just follow this logic train:

1. We went to war in Iraq because of WMD and supposed links to Al Quaeda.
2. There were none of either.
3. The war has made the region more unsteady in the short term, cost the lives of nearly 2,000 American soldiers and tens of thousands of Iraqis, and served as a veritable recruitment drive for Al Quaeda.

If you admit the above facts(and they are), you have to admit this: we went to war with a country under pretenses which proved to be false after the fact, and the war and subsequent mismanagement of the occupation have made Americans LESS SAFE. Especially the nearly two thousand DEAD ones.

But yeah, your guy sure has done a good job of protecting us. He's like a retard poking a hornet's nest and wondering why he got stung.
 
The_Sorrow said:
"...incidents including the bloody school seizure in Russia and violence related to the disputed Indian territory of Kashmir."

That would be the reason.
:lol

Really? The Kashmir dispute and one school seizure in Russia account for 2004's increase of 480 acts of terrorism? And did you miss the part about 2003 being a record year even before 2004's massive increase?

Just shut the fuck up already.
 
Raoul Duke said:
Back it up with facts. The assertion that 9/11 is primarily Clinton's fault is laughable, especially with the August memo that Dubya missed as he was clearing brush. Also the idea that there is less terrorism/terrorists in the world today is fucking dumb.

My point is this: Clinton slept on radical Islamic terrorism during his 8 years. There were attacks in Somalia, Kenya, Tanzania hell even New York. What did he do? Nothing. We had the oppurtunity to get Bin Laden many times and prosecute him in U.S. courts. I believe it was Sudan who even offered us OBL.

As an American Muslim and a political supporter of Clinton, I feel now, as I argued with Clinton and Berger then, that their counter-terrorism policies fueled the rise of Bin Laden from an ordinary man to a Hydra-like monster.

http://www.infowars.com/saved pages/Prior_Knowledge/Clinton_let_bin_laden.htm

Do me a favor and just follow this logic train:

1. We went to war in Iraq because of WMD and supposed links to Al Quaeda.
2. There were none of either.
3. The war has made the region more unsteady in the short term, cost the lives of nearly 2,000 American soldiers and tens of thousands of Iraqis, and served as a veritable recruitment drive for Al Quaeda.

Iraq has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with this topic so I fail to see why you keep bringing it up.
 
The_Sorrow said:
Iraq has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with this topic so I fail to see why you keep bringing it up.
You're right! I fail to see why Bush mentions it repeatedly in speeches about Iraq, too.
 
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