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[zkylon]

like isn't shen disabled right now on ranked cos of his ult into taunt bug?

i guess the big difference with how league does it then is new releases/reworks, but since league doesn't have like 3 different ranked modes the only way to tell if a champion's broken is by playing it.

i think kassadin is the only case i can think of that would be worth removing like that since he basically meant purple side got only 2 bans for almost half a season

also while i enjoy pro league and watch it every week and stay up late more than i should to watch random korean games, i'm 100% for the game to be balanced around regular people over pros.

if master yi is stomping bronzies then fix that shit up, no reason for people to suffer cause pros know how to play against it. counterplay to a champion shouldn't be "get good"

 

[Haly]

For league players, when discussing DOTA2 balance, it's customary to refer only to Icefrog. The design and balance isn't really done by committee the way it is in League. Valve does engine work, art assets, steam integration, bug fixes and so on and so forth. He might have a secret team of testers, but no one knows. It would be easier getting the personal information of CIA employees than it would be trying to find out the balance team for DOTA2. So this discussion isn't really about Riot vs. Valve, but Riot vs. Icefrog.

 

[brian!]

im fine with counterplay being get good, but obviously not at the expense of making other people's lives hellish

but yeah, I think I had the same misunderstanding zkylon, dota doesn't disable things because they are too strong in the meta, they disable reworks

For league players, when discussing DOTA2 balance, it's customary to refer only to Icefrog. The design and balance isn't really done by committee the way it is in League. Valve does engine work, art assets, steam integration, bug fixes and so on and so forth. He might have a secret team of testers, but no one knows. It would be easier getting the personal information of CIA employees than it would be trying to find out the balance team for DOTA2. So this discussion isn't really about Riot vs. Valve, but Riot vs. Icefrog.

oh right, but I'm sure he has testers and people he runs things through http://youtu.be/L53gjP-TtGE?t=1m2s

 

[ViviOggi]

There's a 10-14% spread in winrate depending on starting side in LoL, across all levels of play and game modes, because of the isometric camera vision differences? Yikes...

A year or two back the stats were showing that 90-95% of pro matches in LoL were decided by gold advantage by the ten minute mark, is that still the case too?

Abysmal choice for #1 e-sport, either way.

RIP Lollers

 

[Haly]

the only way to tell if a champion's broken is by playing it.

Well, Icefrog thinks the same way. The actual difference is Icefrog thinks he can tell when a hero is too broken for competitive play just from pub games, so he never really inflicts a truly OP hero on the comp scene. I think he's shown that he can accomplish this consistently. His balancing acumen is top tier in the world of esports. Riot, on the other hand, is willing to see how a champ preforms in competitive play before deciding to nerf or buff. There's also the omnipresent suspiccion of business sided motivations for champion balance. I make no direct accusations, but the fact that champions can be bought means this will always nag at the back of the head.

Tangentially, one of the major tools Icefrog employs for balancing between comp and puc games is hero skill ceiling. Many heroes who are great in competitive games but bad in pub games owe that disparity to how hard they are to play. It's like the opposite of the Master Yi problem, where a hero thwt is borderline OP is "balanced" because there's maybe 100 players in the world who can play them to their full potential. This allows him to create very strong heroes even by DOTA2 standards without messing up the pub experience.

It's also one of the things doesnt work for League, because Riot takes great care to make every Champion grasppable by the average player. Making a champion so complex only a handful of pros can play it is anathema to their game vision.

 

[zkylon]

what i don't get is

there's a single elo

you share that between mode with ops enabled and mode without them

isn't that wrong then?

like i can just abuse an op champion and have more elo than my friend that only plays in the fair mode?

or i'm thinking it wrong

 

[brian!]

well league has shared elo with solo/duo

but I'm sure ranked is frivolous in dota in the same way it is in league

in the sense that everyone that's not diamond 1 80+lp is trash

I'd say business sided motivations are core to Riot's thinking; they have molded this motivation with a perceived privileging of the customer

you will never see Riot respond to some sort of uproar on reddit, for example, negatively, but in a more negotiating or even concessionary way

 

[zkylon]

also like i said already in league new champions and reworks are disabled for a week or two in competitive. it's not even a case by case thing, it's literally every new champion/rework.

same with gamebreaking bugs

 

[collige]

what i don't get is

there's a single elo

you share that between mode with ops enabled and mode without them

isn't that wrong then?

like i can just abuse an op champion and have more elo than my friend that only plays in the fair mode?

or i'm thinking it wrong

The enemy team is just as capable of picking said OP hero as long as their fingers are quick so in a way it's still balanced. The heroes disabled in CM/CD are also rarely the ones that have the highest winrate in pubs anyway.

 

[NBtoaster]

what i don't get is

there's a single elo

you share that between mode with ops enabled and mode without them

isn't that wrong then?

like i can just abuse an op champion and have more elo than my friend that only plays in the fair mode?

or i'm thinking it wrong

Yeah. But then you're fucked when the OP heroes get nerfed and you're at a MMR you don't deserve, and you lose every game. Happened with Earth Spirit.

 

[ViviOggi]

what i don't get is

there's a single elo

you share that between mode with ops enabled and mode without them

isn't that wrong then?

like i can just abuse an op champion and have more elo than my friend that only plays in the fair mode?

or i'm thinking it wrong

To a certain extent sure, we've got a few heavy Earth Spirit abusers here on GAF for example. But ELO/MMR are hugely flawed concepts in 5v5 games anyway so who gives a damn.

 

[brian!]

I think someone said before that there is this desire not to split the player base
which is kind of a rioty way of thinking about it

 

[Drkirby]

what i don't get is

there's a single elo

you share that between mode with ops enabled and mode without them

isn't that wrong then?

like i can just abuse an op champion and have more elo than my friend that only plays in the fair mode?

or i'm thinking it wrong

To be honest, yes. But there is no reward for a higher mmr in ranked other then bragging rights. Plus, most people I saw spam op heroes when rmm first went live got shitcanned hard once the heroes got nerfed.

 

[brian!]

does icefrog/dota actually claim that they privilege competitive balance over most things, or is that mainly from the mouth of its players

 

[iamblades]

To a certain extent sure, we've got a few heavy Earth Spirit abusers here on GAF for example. But ELO/MMR are hugely flawed concepts in 5v5 games anyway so who gives a damn.

^^

Heroes that are currently not available in Captains Mode:

Broodmother, Earth Spirit, Legion Commander, Terrorblade, Phoenix

Win rates are in order: 39.24%, 32.59%, 44.80%, 51.91%, 49.45%

While these heroes may be imbalanced in one way or another, they are not likely to be the kind of heroes you can abuse to boost your meaningless MMR rating without actually having some skill. Aside from maybe terrorblade, he is easy.

 

[zkylon]

sounds like it's also a pretty shitty mode to support to begin with, everyone probably abusing the blocked champions and whatnot

weird

edit: also wow at champions with 32% winrate. that's pretty fucking low

 

[NBtoaster]

does icefrog/dota actually claim that they privilege competitive balance over most things, or is that mainly from the mouth of its players

Icefrog says nothing. Patches aren't even annotated like League, it's just a list of changes that we're left to figure out, though most of the changes are clearly focused around high level play. Pubstompers do occasionally get hit though.

 

[iamblades]

sounds like it's also a pretty shitty mode to support to begin with, everyone probably abusing the blocked champions and whatnot

weird

edit: also wow at champions with 32% winrate. that's pretty fucking low

He is a hero with a very high skill cap that encourages super aggressive play, naturally 95% of the players who play him are just going to feed endlessly. Means nothing to whether he is good or not(he is).

 

[water_wendi]

i dont get the fascination with MOBAs. Tried several since the very beginning and its never provided any funz for me. i try to give them another shot every few months when i hear people go on about how theyve logged like 10,000 hours in them. ive never really said this before because there hasnt been a MOBA-specific thread and the ones that were around were for the individual games and i didnt want to come across as shitting on a game.

Anyway.. have fun and best of luck in your future matches.

 

[Haly]

does icefrog/dota actually claim that they privilege competitive balance over most things, or is that mainly from the mouth of its players

Don't think so. I assert this from years of observing his patchnotes.

Refer to my post above for explanation of 30% win rate heroes. Again, its the polar opposite of the pubstomper effect. You could say its a kind of compstomper.

 

[brian!]

Icefrog says nothing. Patches aren't even annotated like League, it's just a list of changes that we're left to figure out, though most of the changes are focused around high level play.

that sounds kind of awesome

I didn't realize how opposite dota and league were in the communication department. Riot communicates a good amount to the league community, makes video packages, tweets w/ random doods
though yeah, almost everything they say has, for me, this sense of marketing earnestness or honesty

icefrog up on some illuminati shit

Don't think so. I assert this from years of observing his patchnotes.

I wonder how he feels about how his game is represented by its fans
he prolly doesnt care and just rolls in his cash vault tho

 

[pieatorium]

sounds like it's also a pretty shitty mode to support to begin with, everyone probably abusing the blocked champions and whatnot

weird

edit: also wow at champions with 32% winrate. that's pretty fucking low

even when he was the most op hero in the game his overall winrate wasn't great iirc

 

[collige]

does icefrog/dota actually claim that they privilege competitive balance over most things, or is that mainly from the mouth of its players

It's blatantly obvious who the buff and nerfs are intended for when looking at the patch notes. Visage and Wisp, for example, got significant nerfs despite performing like hot trash in pubs. On the other hand, heroes like Zeus and Wraith King have gotten consistenly buffed despite leading the winrate charts in pubs.

I think someone said before that there is this desire not to split the player base
which is kind of a rioty way of thinking about it

Kind of, but having everyone in separate pools has a very real effect on matchmaking quality (which Valve has gotten a lot of shit for over the years).

 

[iamblades]

even when he was the most op hero in the game his overall winrate wasn't great iirc

^^ He had a 40% winrate pre nerf IIRC.

 

[zkylon]

He is a hero with a very high skill cap that encourages super aggressive play, naturally 95% of the players who play him are just going to feed endlessly. Means nothing to whether he is good or not(he is).

still, 32% sounds like he's pretty much unplayable unless you're really good

league's lowest, at least from what lolking reports, is urgot at 40.51%, who's considered pretty trash tier with the exception of some cheese picks

lebonk, elise, lee sin, vayne, zed, a lot of the high skillcap and meta strong champions hover at the 45%

the dreaded pubstompy master yi which will pretty soon find himself nerfed one way or another (most likely just the item that's throwing him off-balance) sits at 54%, highest in the game.

so like it's very interesting to see 32%, a champion like that would never fly with rito

for obvious $$$$ reasons but also cos by overall design rito doesn't like champions being totally impossible to get into

 

[Haly]

he prolly doesnt care and just rolls in his cash vault tho

Maybe, maybe not. Keep in mind Icefrog has developed Dota, as a game, for around a decade. It is only from 2011 that he actually got any substantial compensation for his work, despite it having millions and millions of players before anyone heard of League.

Overlooking some shady shit with HoN, icefrog deserves respect for his past commitment to the game.

 

[brian!]

Maybe, maybe not. Keep in mind Icefrog has developed Dota, as a game, for around a decade. It is only from 2011 that he actually got any substantial compensation for his work, despite it having millions and millions of players before anyone heard of League.

Overlooking some shady shit with HoN, icefrog deserves respect for his past commitment to the game.

oh it was a joke, i dunno this guy's head, I just think it's interesting how limited his interaction with the community is; it definitely seems like he's a workhorse.
his lack of interaction can be interpreted in many ways, but obviously not in any solid way without more information

ok this has been nice, thanks for answering my questions dota ppl, it's really fun to learn about the state of the game after I stopped playing like 5 years ago

ill probably hang out in this thread and answer league questions and maybe bombard u a little with dota questions

 

[Drkirby]

sounds like it's also a pretty shitty mode to support to begin with, everyone probably abusing the blocked champions and whatnot

weird

edit: also wow at champions with 32% winrate. that's pretty fucking low

ES has a stupid low win rate, but he had a really good win rate in the really high rank games until they nerfed him.

The reason he is so low is that he has 3 spells relating to positioning (roll to a spot, kick a unit, pull an ally) that do really low damage and are hard to aim. I think his core kit is fine, but he needs a bunch of number tweaking and changes to the cc he does.

He is in fact the least played hero in the game, I expect him to be buffed some next patch.

I remember when Treant had a 60% win rate when he had a global +4 hp regen/armor.

 

[Haly]

I'm 4-3 with Earth Spirit after the patch. I wouldn't call myself stellar but I'm better than a lot of DOTA2 players. The thing is, you don't have to be great at DOTA2 to see success with any one hero, especially the higher skill ceiling ones. What's important is knowing how to play those particular heroes well. It's analogous to games like Street Fighter 4, where a character most people suck at can still be competitive, because there's a few people who know them like the back of their own hand. Gen players come to mind here.

 

[iamblades]

ES has a stupid low win rate, but he had a really good win rate in the really high rank games until they nerfed him.

The reason he is so low is that he has 3 spells relating to positioning (roll to a spot, kick a unit, pull an ally) that do really low damage and are hard to aim. I think his core kit is fine, but he needs a bunch of number tweaking and changes to the cc he does.

I remember when Treant had a 60% win rate when he had a global +4 hp regen/armor.

Treant is the one example of a hero that was OP in both low skill and high skill matches for different reasons. In low skill games because a chimpanzee could play him and stall pushes for an eternity at low skill without risking anything really by hiding somewhere and healing towers, and at high skill because he allowed squishies to tower dive super aggressively early on.

They nerfed the damage block so he doesn't help as much with the tower dives early, but left his tower healing alone.

I'm 4-3 with Earth Spirit after the patch. I wouldn't call myself stellar but I'm better than a lot of DOTA2 players. The thing is, you don't have to be great at DOTA2 to see success with any one hero, especially the higher skill ceiling ones. What's important is knowing how to play those particular heroes well. It's analogous to games like Street Fighter 4, where a character most people suck at can still be competitive, because there's a few people who know them like the back of their own hand. Gen players come to mind here.

This is true as well. The skills required to play a hero like Invoker are fundamentally completely different from the skills required to play a hero like Meepo. That's the great thing about Dota, seemingly every hero is like playing a totally different game.

 

[zkylon]

i already see your entire team flaming you the moment you pick mister 32

 

[SamVimes]

i already see your entire team flaming you the moment you pick mister 32

When he was mister sub 40 your own team would sometimes flame you because you picked the most op hero in the game so it's not really a problem.

 

[Imperfected]

32% in a 5v5 game is hilariously bad.

I mean, this isn't Street Fighter, it's not like your single match-up is determining the entire game. There are four other players there and dozens of mitigating factors. A hero really shouldn't be able to shit the bed that hard in terms of winrate unless something is seriously, catastrophically wrong.

(This is assuming we're talking about global winrate across a huge sample size of games, of course, and not tournament winrate in pro games or something.)

 

[iamblades]

i already see your entire team flaming you the moment you pick mister 32

Not really, I've never seen any flaming based of picking a low win rate hero. If you pick a hero that doesn't fit what's already been picked(like a third hard carry) or you pick a hero that fills a role someone else wanted to do(like you go pudge when someone was planning on going storm).

Most of the time the flame doesn't start until the game starts to go poorly in my experience. Occasionally you will get question marks if you pick a notoriously difficult hero like meepo, just an 'are you sure you know what you are doing?' type thing, but the real nastiness doesn't come until you make a mistake(or a perceived mistake) in the game.

 

[Drkirby]

i already see your entire team flaming you the moment you pick mister 32

Eh, not an issue since no one actually picks him kappa.

Most of the time I see him is he is a random.

Oh, there is another thing to bring up. Outside of comp modes, you get bonus gold when you random.

 

[zkylon]

? what is gold?

lol

32% in a 5v5 game is hilariously bad.

I mean, this isn't Street Fighter, it's not like your single match-up is determining the entire game. There are four other players there and dozens of mitigating factors. A hero really shouldn't be able to shit the bed that hard in terms of winrate unless something is seriously, catastrophically wrong.

(This is assuming we're talking about global winrate across a huge sample size of games, of course, and not tournament winrate in pro games or something.)

well it is really pathetic but as people are saying here he's prolly getting buffed

 

[Hylian7]

32% in a 5v5 game is hilariously bad.

I mean, this isn't Street Fighter, it's not like your single match-up is determining the entire game. There are four other players there and dozens of mitigating factors. A hero really shouldn't be able to shit the bed that hard in terms of winrate unless something is seriously, catastrophically wrong.

(This is assuming we're talking about global winrate across a huge sample size of games, of course, and not tournament winrate in pro games or something.)

You have to keep in mind that one person can really lose your team the game. On top of that, in the previous patch (where ES was overpowered as all hell), his winrate overall was still pretty abysmal, yet in the hands of people that knew what they were doing, it was basically a free win. A lot of people didn't know what they were doing, but those that did know what they were doing usually won games with him. It's one of those things that is hard to get the hang of, but in the right hands will easily and singlehandedly win you games.

Now ES is fairly weak (honestly looking back on it I think the nerf was a bit of an overnerf, but he needed some kind of nerf back then), so having a 32% winrate does make some sense. On top of that, with Earth Spirit, if you screw up, it can put your whole team in a bad spot. This is because you have two skills that can adjust the position of your teammates or your enemies, which can be great if used effectively, but bad if not so much. It is like having a Pudge that constantly hooks teammates away from the enemy they are trying to kill, or into an enemy that will easily kill them.

 

[iamblades]

? what is gold?

lol



well it is really pathetic but as people are saying here he's prolly getting buffed

Nah:

Earth Spirit
Stone Remnant recharge timer increased from 25 to 35
Geomagnetic Grip now does a 2/3/4/5 second silence instead of a 1/1.5/2/2.5 second stun
Geomagnetic Grip damage rescaled from 125 to 100/150/200/250
Boulder Smash damage rescaled from 100/150/200/250 to 125
Boulder Smash now does a 0.75/1.25/1.75/2.25 second stun instead of a 3.5/4/4.5/5 second silence
Boulder Smash radius from 225 to 200
Rolling Boulder now also gets interrupted if disabled during the initial 0.6 rolling charge, instead of only while its moving
Geomagnetic Grip now kills trees along the path of a dragged allied hero
Targeting someone directly with Boulder Smash will now be blocked by Linken's Sphere
Fixed being able to cast Geomagnetic Grip on magic immune allies
Fixed Boulder Smash being able to target Magic Immune units
Fixed Rolling Boulder travel distance going further than intended if you use a Stone Remnant near the end of the roll

 

[ViviOggi]

Considering he hasn't touched the hero at all post-nerf Icefraud should have thrown Kaolin into CM months ago really

 

[Hylian7]

Nah:

Earth Spirit
Stone Remnant recharge timer increased from 25 to 35
Geomagnetic Grip now does a 2/3/4/5 second silence instead of a 1/1.5/2/2.5 second stun
Geomagnetic Grip damage rescaled from 125 to 100/150/200/250
Boulder Smash damage rescaled from 100/150/200/250 to 125
Boulder Smash now does a 0.75/1.25/1.75/2.25 second stun instead of a 3.5/4/4.5/5 second silence
Boulder Smash radius from 225 to 200
Rolling Boulder now also gets interrupted if disabled during the initial 0.6 rolling charge, instead of only while its moving
Geomagnetic Grip now kills trees along the path of a dragged allied hero
Targeting someone directly with Boulder Smash will now be blocked by Linken's Sphere
Fixed being able to cast Geomagnetic Grip on magic immune allies
Fixed Boulder Smash being able to target Magic Immune units
Fixed Rolling Boulder travel distance going further than intended if you use a Stone Remnant near the end of the roll

Honestly, if they revert the stone remnant recharge timer thing, and leave everything else, I think he might be somewhere close to balanced.

 

[Drkirby]

? what is gold?

Money. You know, to buy items. Like boot. Pretty sure lol uses the same term.

If you random, you start with 250 extra gold at the start of the game.

 

[Haly]

i already see your entire team flaming you the moment you pick mister 32

There is a really funny phenomnenon here, where the worse/harder a hero is percieved by the pub community, the more respect you get when you pick it, because, hey, if you voluntarily choose a hero like that you must be some sort of super pro badass. This is most obvious with Meepo, easily the hardest hero to play in the game. Picking him is instant respect.

A hero really shouldn't be able to shit the bed that hard in terms of winrate unless something is seriously, catastrophically wrong.

DOTA2 has heroes whose personal playstyles are almost entirely unique. They might all share basic mechanics like last hitting and skill shot aiming, but beyond that they play completely different. Playing them is a matter of studying and developing their ideal playstyle, and most players can't manage that. It's like the difference between Bronze tier SC2 and pro tier SC2. Imagine if a particular strategy absolutely required pro level APM to pull off. If an average player attempted it with his 50APM, he is going to lose a lot. This is the level of disparity that exists between hero execution in DOTA2 at its most extreme.

 

[ViviOggi]

If you random, you start with 250 extra gold at the start of the game.

Meanwhile in Leeg you get banned

 

[iamblades]

You have to keep in mind that one person can really lose your team the game. On top of that, in the previous patch (where ES was overpowered as all hell), his winrate overall was still pretty abysmal, yet in the hands of people that knew what they were doing, it was basically a free win. A lot of people didn't know what they were doing, but those that did know what they were doing usually won games with him. It's one of those things that is hard to get the hang of, but in the right hands will easily and singlehandedly win you games.

Now ES is fairly weak (honestly looking back on it I think the nerf was a bit of an overnerf, but he needed some kind of nerf back then), so having a 32% winrate does make some sense. On top of that, with Earth Spirit, if you screw up, it can put your whole team in a bad spot. This is because you have two skills that can adjust the position of your teammates or your enemies, which can be great if used effectively, but bad if not so much. It is like having a Pudge that constantly hooks teammates away from the enemy they are trying to kill, or into an enemy that will easily kill them.

Another interesting thing about Dota. So many abilities can backfire horribly if used inappropriately, so a bad player not only feeds the opposing team gold and exp, they can actively cause harm. Nothing beats a void chronosphere on your entire team inside an enemy jakiros ultimate.. Especially when the chrono only catches the tanky heros and misses all the ranged dps

So many bad chronos make it to fails of the week.

 

[Hylian7]

Another interesting thing about Dota. So many abilities can backfire horribly if used inappropriately, so a bad player not only feeds the opposing team gold and exp, they can actively cause harm. Nothing beats a void chronosphere on your entire team inside an enemy jakiros ultimate.. Especially when the chrono only catches the tanky heros and misses all the ranged dps

So many bad chronos make it to fails of the week.

Nothing tops the 5-man RPs, Enigma blinking in for Black Hole, and then a big ol' Skewer out of the Black Hole!

 

[zkylon]

Money. You know, to buy items. Like boot. Pretty sure lol uses the same term.

If you random, you start with 250 extra gold at the start of the game.

that's stupid

 

[Imperfected]

DOTA2 has heroes whose personal playstyles are almost entirely unique. They might all share basic mechanics like last hitting and skill shot aiming, but beyond that they play completely different. Playing them is a matter of studying and developing their ideal playstyle, and most players can't manage that. It's like the difference between Bronze tier SC2 and pro tier SC2. Imagine if a particular strategy absolutely required pro level APM to pull off. If an average player attempted it with his 50APM, he is going to lose a lot. This is the level of disparity that between heroes in DOTA2.

I'm aware, but we're talking about an incredibly complex game with a lot of moving parts. It's legitimately hard for a hero to be so bad that his global winrate is <40%, because for every game that your Earth Spirit is a no-skill cyka you're going to have a game where it didn't matter because your AM was carrying like a god, or their team had a disconnect, or it turned out the enemy team were all Bolivians.

You could probably make a hero with absolutely no abilities other than a ranged auto-attack and still have them sit around a 25% winrate. 32% is legitimately impressive! Like, I would have to guess that it's a hero that specifically attracts griefers and troll picks at that point.

 

[Haly]

There are so many ways to fuck with your teammates that Valve literally included an checkbox to prevent any of your allies from casting spells on you. Even then, there are skills that can still ruin your day if used incorrectly/maliciously.

As for the Earth Spirit thing, because he was almost free MMR for a while, I imagine a lot of people tried to force him to perform like he did in 6.79 with disastrous results. The 1.5 milliion games of Earth spirit in 6.80 had a meager 25% win rate. 1.5 million is not that much either. He is the second least played hero in 6.80, below Visage but abovr Chen. People largely stopped playing him after those first few titanic-esque weeks after 6.80.

 

[Pureauthor]

In part it's because a large portion of his utility involves pushing/pulling both allies and enemies.

Do that wrong and you just sent your carry into the middle of a 4 man gank squad, or you basically just pulled their big AoE teamfight ult into your face.

 

[Boken]

Hey guess what kassadin and ryze weren't available on urf mode yeah I'm really feeling that business leaking power yeah nice one haly do you eat with that hand too

Free random gold only works In Ap and guess what? AP is shit

Ice frog removing op shit from cm is just different balance philosophy at best

Lol @ using 2 year stats to make a conclusion

Earth spirit is like lee sin x2

No hylian, it doesn't matter if you explain why he has a low win rate, it's still really low. Tho I wish people would use more bracketed win rates. Pretty sure kaolin has better rates at higher mmr. Just as blue v purp disparity is smaller at higher Elo

People pls stop using stats mindlessly. Like who seriously cares that kaolin has a 32% win rate. What does that even mean it can't tell u anything

Have a Braum pictur I hope one of his abilities throws a poro

Ps I am in the middle of nowhere (help kangaroos r everywhere) and I can't really lay down the smack down on all you wrong people who make assumptions and veil your opinions with fake reasons