Introduction to MOBAs
- Thread starter SteveWinwood
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i bet gaben secretly donates to the moral majority
And why shouldnt you "get good" if the champion isnt really that great? Its like crying out for nerfs on invis heroes in dota when you dont buy dust and sentries.
Also it isnt true that the frog only balances for pros. Very occassionally he balances for pubs.
Yeah Spirit Breaker got a nerf for pubs. He did see a few pro games though.
Warlock got a nerf (highest pub WR) then he got a buff again with his slow. His Ult/Chains is just inherently good in pubs and in CD tournaments saw picks as a core/carry/mid.
As a League player with 10 games and Yi is free week FUCK YI. Literally cannot do anything. At least Riki is slightly weaker if you buy reveal for him (Perma invis hero, does not break on range) until he gets a core item +1. Katarina is also free this week so it's reset city into snowball into 17-2. At least in Dota I can build items to counter (Sheep, Basher, Abysal) where in League it feels like if someone gets too big you cannot do anything (And it seems like only 1 champ gets huge most of the time in my games).
Maybe Bronzies need to just itemize better and call targets, but the way positioning works they are not going to be caught out.
That's my take on it for now anyway.
Also, the low MMO/ELO is real with people insta locking shit like Riki/Sniper and rushing SB.
Warlock got a nerf (highest pub WR) then he got a buff again with his slow. His Ult/Chains is just inherently good in pubs and in CD tournaments saw picks as a core/carry/mid.
Wow that is really well done.
People doin crazy shit with SFM
That's pretty fair though, that's actually the best answer imo. If I'm dying to Yi now I need to ward better and see him coming, the same goes for all the other lanes, but that's not going to happen.
As a League player with 10 games and Yi is free week FUCK YI. Literally cannot do anything. At least Riki is slightly weaker if you buy reveal for him (Perma invis hero, does not break on range) until he gets a core item +1. Katarina is also free this week so it's reset city into snowball into 17-2. At least in Dota I can build items to counter (Sheep, Basher, Abysal) where in League it feels like if someone gets too big you cannot do anything (And it seems like only 1 champ gets huge most of the time in my games).
Maybe Bronzies need to just itemize better and call targets, but the way positioning works they are not going to be caught out.
That's my take on it for now anyway.
Also, the low MMO/ELO is real with people insta locking shit like Riki/Sniper and rushing SB.
Well yeah you will need to ward better against yi, but you can also buy stuff like Randuins. Granted it's just going to slow down your demise if he is fed, you can run Exhaust though, that's legit and really good against yi. Pre-rework Yi was much stronger than the current Yi in low level games will also being worse than the current Yi in higher level games at the same time. You can't build a sheepstick against the guy, but then again he can't buy BKB. If he is fed he is almost as terrible as a fed dota carry. Not nearly as strong, but the closest a melee carry in League can get to that, essentially.
I bought Yi though so I can become the imba.
Time to learn Jungle!
SteveWinwood
Member
Haz get good.
Schweinehund
Member
these webm's actually load decently fast on my 1 mb connection.
It's pretty funny when you cast last word on a phoenix and watch them try to escape and just cycle back to where they started.
Winter Wyvern might be a good counter to some of the more popular heroes right now, a global cc could buy all the time a team needs to kill a slippery hero.
What is this jungle item everyone hates in league? The lantern's upgrade?
Yeah I think the lantern upgrade is great. Other junglers are still viable and the jungle is not confined to 3-5 junglers anymore. The jungle pool got opened a lot.
Seeing as I posted some already I may as well go full on with the funny vids. Anything from Nigma is a must-watch, so You can't run from heaven, it's sequel, and his shittier dota digest series, which was inspired by Krokodainers series.
Then you have the already posted Blinkin 'n' Slammin Anti Mage, I'm the Juggernaut, bitch and the Dota poop series.
I'm probably forgetting some.
Then you have the already posted Blinkin 'n' Slammin Anti Mage, I'm the Juggernaut, bitch and the Dota poop series.
I'm probably forgetting some.
hallo i am here with another dota question
what's the state of the jungle? when I was playing it was mostly chen or enchantress or like naix. maybe centuar sometimes.
do people follow a set meta? In league most people do 1-1-2 + jungle (competitive has been favoring a hard push w/ lane swaps), but I remember in dota 1 trilanes were a little popular and you didn't see junglers every game. lanes were like leshrac plus sven, stuff like that, mostly cheese lane combos
i imagine dota is a lil more versatile since the hero kits are prtty specific
what's the state of the jungle? when I was playing it was mostly chen or enchantress or like naix. maybe centuar sometimes.
do people follow a set meta? In league most people do 1-1-2 + jungle (competitive has been favoring a hard push w/ lane swaps), but I remember in dota 1 trilanes were a little popular and you didn't see junglers every game. lanes were like leshrac plus sven, stuff like that, mostly cheese lane combos
i imagine dota is a lil more versatile since the hero kits are prtty specific
They're still there. There are roughly three kinds of junglers:
Support Jungles: Chen, Enchantress, CM
Ganker Jungles: Axe, Legion Commander, Enigma, Batrider
Farming Jungles: Lone Druid, Lycan, Ursa, Naix, Bloodseeker
Versatile: Nature's Prophet, Dark Seer, Doom
Support Jungles try to put pressure on the lanes and give their team more room to farm. Ganker junglers are looking to complete a key item as fast as possible (usually Blink), so they can start doing their real job. Farming jungles just treat the jungle as a fourth lane. The heroes I labeled Versatile can do two or more of the above depending on playstyle.
For low level pub games, the standard is either 2-1-2 or 1-1-2-Jungle.
In competitive and higher level games there's:
2-1-2 (common, but only in high tier pubs, not in competitive)
1-1-2-Jungle (common)
1-1-2-Roam (uncommon)
1-1-1-Duo Roam (uncommon)
1-2-2 (rare)
1-1-3 (common)
1-1-1-Jungle-Roam (very rare)
There's no set meta. Hero selection of both teams dictates lane setups. 2-1-2 is viable, 2 safe + 1 mid + 1 offlane + jungle is viable, aggressive tri is viable, defensive tri is viable, etc. At low MMR 2-1-2 or 2 safe + 1 mid + 1 offlane + jungle are popular. At high MMR and pro matches, trilanes are popular but usually lead very quickly into reactive rotations based on game status.
It's very fluid, actually more so now than last year even. You can see the classic 3-1-1 set- up, 2-1-2, 2-1-1 with one in the Jungle, dual mid, 1-1-3 (aggressive trilane, very risky). That's in competitive. In pubs, people can't be arsed to sort out what is most suitable so usually you get 2-1-2 at lower levels and 3-1-1 at higher levels, with someone occasionally deciding they want to play a jungler. Oh, and very rarely you get aggressive jungle, which is jungling in the enemies jungle, though that's obviously risky. It's all situational to what strat you wanna do.
Oh and supports will be rotating a lot in the early game.
HiddenWings
Member
I don't think first inhibitor was 100% during super week. Iirc, some NA team got first inhib and sill threw. Also during super week, there was that Coast/C9 game. It's possible for back and forth to happen, but after ~25 minutes, it isn't terribly likely.
SteveWinwood
Member
I don't think most people would think so.
http://www.teamfortress.com/roboticboogaloo/
It was pretty good, and ultimately more meaty than the smaller content patch that came a few months later entirely out of valve ( http://www.teamfortress.com/twocities/mannhattan/ ). But all of this has to do with all the Valve people moving around on plenty of different projects, but we see that surface in Dota stuff as well. The next one is focuses entirely around a SFM movie that's coming out that you've probably seen the trailer for. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmVsOl9qAhs
The jungle is an entirely different beasts in pubs and pros. In normal games you'll see stuff like naix and legion commander in jungles even though they're really slow and kind of trash in there.
edit nevermind haly covered it way better
Duo mid is sort of coming up in pro games right now and I've seen more and more agressive tris but that might just be me paying more attention. I think people run just about anything really. In lower pubs 2 - 1 - 2 is pretty set, but tri's and solo offlanes are by no means uncommon. I don't think the meta is very set for laning, but some people will throw a fit if you don't lane certain individual heroes in a certain way, so you might interpret it that way if you're getting yelled at.
yeah I figured that about pubs, it's cool that there's more than one standard though. league will always have a jungler because it's the most efficient way to distribute gold and secure objectives (there are buffs in the jungle for league).
yeah junglers seem pretty farmy in dota, thought I remember some terrifying chen and furion ganks. If one team has a jungler and the other doesn't what are the objectives of each team? Do people try to fuck with the jungler a lot? Does the jungler ward his own jungle or more aggressively? etc.
league has been very objective based recently, with rotations being about claiming towers for global gold and securing things like dragon and buffs which have set timers
what is the most efficient way of doto
yeah junglers seem pretty farmy in dota, thought I remember some terrifying chen and furion ganks. If one team has a jungler and the other doesn't what are the objectives of each team? Do people try to fuck with the jungler a lot? Does the jungler ward his own jungle or more aggressively? etc.
league has been very objective based recently, with rotations being about claiming towers for global gold and securing things like dragon and buffs which have set timers
what is the most efficient way of doto
It's possible to block camps in jungle with wards, preventing them from spawning. Roaming supports and the mid will occasionally go into the jungle looking for an easy kill, especially if they have a fragile jungle. Rarely will one jungler ever invade the other jungler. It just takes too long and is too unreliable, since even the most aggressive junglers still need teammates for that extra DPS. The only exception is if a jungler starts jungling in the enemy's jungle to deny them camps and exp, and that is a very risky play.
SteveWinwood
Member
I'm not sure if you were present for it, but we were talking about how there was a lot of heroes in dota that don't require gold to scale well so you can get away with not having a jungler vs a jungler team because it's entirely dependent on hero picks.
It really depends on what kind of jungler you have. You'll want to try and shut down some junglers, like old lycan, and others you can use the lack of a hero as a great opportunity to shut down the rest of the lanes because they're essentially down one hero.
Rosh and dragon are getting further different. I noticed you guys were sharing a new tool that has a timer for the dragon and the other doohickey, but they've changed rosh so the timer is partially random so some of that won't fly anymore. It made it a lot more fun if you ask me because you just didn't have this strange everyone show up at this point of the map at this exact time and people doing shit all for the time before that in fear that important skills won't be up for a fight over it. Less camping and what not. So in that way I guess you could say that for that objective it became less important in the mid game. It's still fairly important in the late game but it's not the centerpiece it used to be.
oh right, league will often have mid push out and then go with the jungler to contest an objective, forcing the opponent mid to choose between losing farm or joining a losing fight
I guess there are actually a lot of similarities in strategy for both games tho with important differences of course
random objective is really interesting esp since rosh is so important, i would think it would increase camping though or turtling
I guess there are actually a lot of similarities in strategy for both games tho with important differences of course
random objective is really interesting esp since rosh is so important, i would think it would increase camping though or turtling
Schweinehund
Member
Is olaf jungle or rengar jungle any good?
Sitting 8300 ip, not sure what do for jungler buys.
Sitting 8300 ip, not sure what do for jungler buys.
In pubs, people never disrupt junglers. What, you want people to be smart, no way, gotta sap that exp.
In comp, it really depends on the jungler. Typically if a team has an obvious jungler the other team will go as 5 into their jungle and block camp spawns with wards. Other than that, they are left to their own devices, unless the offlaner decides to go fuck with them. The thing is, the only junglers really picked in comp are ones that are never low on hp whilst doing it, so they aren't that vulnerable. Early game tends to be more about ganking the mid and offlane/carry. Farming mids are more common this patch so smoke ganks by both supports onto the mid are common, as is wrapping around the offlaner. If you have a ganking mid then typically they will gank the enemy carry to help their offlaner. Junglers like Chen and Enchantress in particular are expected to gank in the first 5 minutes (two games today in Starladder had an Enchantress dominating early game this way), whilst others like Enigma are a little more about farming. Also, just because you don't have a jungler, doesn't mean you can't utilize it. You can stack camps, and if you get several triple stack and a hero that is good at clearing them like a mid SF or offlane bat for example, then they can come over and clear them.
Ganking and rotations have different motives depending on what you are trying in that game. If you are looking to push and end the game early then you will try to convert kills into towers. The safe lane T1 (enemy offlane T1) is a good example. Kill the offlaner and push down his tower in the first 5 mins. Other times you just want supports to gank other lanes so that your cores gain a level and gold advantage over their lane opponent, making it easier to win their lane. That said, the inclusion of TP's means that counter ganking is also more important. If you see your mid getting gone on it's not uncommon to see pro supports tping to the lane within a split second, saving their mid and turning the gank around. Global map awareness is key. After 10 minutes even the carry is expected to do this, depending on what kind of carry he is playing. There's more but I've droned on enough.
at the moment the most successful ones are still
khazix elise lee for spirit items
noc xin yi for feral flare
generalization tho, a lot of champs can be successful, you can do well with olaf and rengar too though you kind of have to suss out what you want to be doing and when. rengar was recently nerfed too
nah this is totally the stuff I'm looking for thanks
That was definitely a thing, can't remember examples unfortunately.
SteveWinwood
Member
Some of the effects starting getting hung on the map, it's pretty funny.
No I'm just lazy. Plz dont misrepresent my laziness.
The respawn spread is very large (8 to 11 minutes) so it's not practical, especially as a game goes longer and there aren't towers for the people who aren't camping to teleport to if your opponents catch you camping.
It's a great mechanic, probably Icefrog's best since I started playing. Old Roshan timers made competitive Dota so boring.
e: In typical Dota fashion however, the actual timer on the map that spectators see is extremely opaque and imprecise. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=188583748
there's a lot of backstory going on, most games in NA are fun to watch, personally, due to history and personalities on the teams; league, at least in NA, is very entertainment based, you will see video packages before games, interviews, etc. You can take that for what you will, tho im sure dota ppl would be quick to jump on that as a negative, wrestling is not real, etc.
the reason that game was good, for me, was because TSM is the best at getting wins that are somehow handed to them; a consistently good team will for some reason crumble and do something insane ans TSM will pick up the pieces. obviously there is more going on than that but that's what I like about it
in the current fast push meta there are less kills and faster wins tho, ppl on reddit complaining about how it's not as fun to watch. that clg/tsm game was under the same conditions, largely the same kind of game, and probably 10x more fun to watch
I figured teams thinking, lets wait till rosh spawns so we can force a fight/I don't feel comfortable fighting without aegis atm, etc. but I'm sure it's different in practice
We have a fast-push game with some unusual champ picks where one of the teams outplays the other, secures a lead and makes few mistakes. At around 30 min the leading team makes some positioning mistakes, allowing the other team to capitalize on it and completely turn around the game, leading to a teamfight where one of the unusual champs manages a team fight perfectly, securing a pentakill.
Yes, nice game.
also what brian said.
SteveWinwood
Member
you mean now
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Its a weird fix. Basically now if you get put onto otherwise impassable terrain by Pudge or Venge you now get free pathing for like three seconds so you can get down/out
I'm not a fan honestly
Dreams-Visions
Member
Fuck Phoenix.
well it does open up plays from both heroes so I can kinda see the logic
I wonder how much more open the base coding(?) is after they moved off warcraft
rest in peace Kelen's dagger of escape'
http://goodbyedagger.ytmnd.com/
edit : link above a bit loud^