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iraq sliding into civil war? bush says no, juan cole says yes.

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http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/03/23/civil_war/index.html#

March 23, 2006 | Former Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi shocked the Washington political establishment on the eve of the third anniversary of George W. Bush's invasion of Iraq by declaring that the country is in the midst of a civil war. He observed, "We are losing each day as an average 50 to 60 people throughout the country, if not more. If this is not civil war, then God knows what civil war is." Allawi, an ex-Baathist and longtime CIA asset whom Washington installed as interim prime minister, is anything but squeamish -- which is one of the reasons the Bush administration selected him in the first place. But Allawi's tough-guy stance is no longer welcome stateside. His remarks were greeted coldly by the White House and the Pentagon, which loudly proclaimed that Iraq is in the midst of no such thing.

In contrast, George W. Bush said at a news conference on Tuesday, "We all recognized that there is violence, that there is sectarian violence. But the way I look at the situation is the Iraqis looked and decided not to go into civil war."

There is no great secret about why Bush is so eager to deny that Iraq is in a state of civil war. He knows only too well that the moment Americans come to believe that Iraq is in a civil war, virtually all support for Bush's war of choice will end. As the Washington Post reported nine months ago, Bush's domestic political spin on the war is guided by the work of two Duke University political scientists, Peter D. Feaver and Christopher F. Gelpi, who have examined public opinion on Iraq and previous conflicts. They argue that the U.S. public will only support wars if it believes the mission will succeed. Public support for the Iraq war has faltered because the American people cannot see progress toward a well defined goal and toward success. If Iraq really has fallen into civil war, there is obviously little hope for victory, and Americans are not going to want to go on spending $60 billion a year on a failed enterprise.

To prevent this from happening, Bush has been giving speeches and answering public questions, attempting to spin Iraq as a budding success story that just needs a little more time (along with the unstated further half-trillion dollars, and a few thousand more dead Americans) to succeed. Beyond that, the Bush administration has tried to reassure Americans that if Iraq did slip into anarchy, the U.S. wouldn't get drawn in. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld startled and dismayed many Iraqis by announcing that if Iraq did fall into what he called civil war, Iraqi forces would have to deal with it, while American troops stayed on the sidelines. During the sectarian disturbances after the al-Askari shrine bombing in Samarra, many thought U.S. troops had orders to remain in their barracks, lest they be sucked into the communal violence.

Allawi, once the Bush administration's pet, is dangerously off message. He warned in a BBC interview that Iraq is rapidly moving toward "the point of no return," and subsequent dismemberment. He added, "It will not only fall apart but sectarianism will spread throughout the region, and even Europe and the U.S. will not be spared the violence that results." The image of Iraq as a sinking ship heading straight for a waterfall that will smash it and the whole Middle East to smithereens is the opposite of the hopeful rhetoric crafted by Bush to meet the Duke professors' specifications.

The real question for politicians like Allawi is not whether Iraq is in the midst of a civil war, but whether it is politically more useful to sound an alarm or to downplay the seriousness of the situation. Allawi, as a representative of the Shiite (and some Sunni) urban middle and upper middle classes in Baghdad and Basra, sees the old Iraq he knew as a young man slipping away. His National Iraqi list garnered only 9 percent of seats in parliament in the Dec. 15 elections, as he saw himself outmaneuvered by fundamentalists of various stripes, including Shiite ayatollahs and Sunni Arab clerics. He therefore wishes to signal that the status quo cannot hold, that sectarianism is the biggest danger, and that only his brand of secular Iraqi nationalism can hope to hold the country together. It is a plea for a minority government under his leadership, with the clear message that Iraq needs a strongman like himself to avoid chaos.

At some early point after the fall of Saddam, if the U.S. had done everything right instead of everything wrong, it is possible -- though by no means assured -- that a secular strongman like Allawi (in effect a cleaned-up Saddam) could have held the country together. Now, it is almost certainly too late. The sectarian genie has been let out of the bottle, and getting it back in is probably not possible.

That there should be a political controversy over whether there is a civil war in Iraq is a tribute to the Bush administration's Orwellian attention to political rhetoric. By the most widely accepted social science measure, Iraq is incontestably in a civil war.

J. David Singer and his collaborators at the University of Michigan (where I also teach) have studied dozens of such conflicts and have offered a thorough and widely adopted definition of civil war. It is:

"Sustained military combat, primarily internal, resulting in at least 1,000 battle-deaths per year, pitting central government forces against an insurgent force capable of effective resistance, determined by the latter's ability to inflict upon the government forces at least 5 percent of the fatalities that the insurgents sustain." (Errol A. Henderson and J. David Singer, "Civil War in the Post-Colonial World, 1946-92," Journal of Peace Research, Vol. 37, No. 3, May 2000.)

The definition focuses on three main dimensions of civil war: that it is fought within a country rather than between states; that it is fought between insurgent forces and the state; and that the insurgent forces offer effective resistance.

The Iraqi central government is pitted against an insurgent force capable of effective resistance. Some 50 distinct cells, spanning the political spectrum from secular Arab nationalists to religious fundamentalists, direct the activities of at least 20,000 to 30,000 part-time guerrillas, and perhaps many more. They strike regularly throughout seven key center-north provinces, including Baghdad, which at 6 million persons contains a fourth of the inhabitants of Iraq. In civil wars, the violence is staccato and almost random. Journalists or bloggers who visit Iraq and find bustling bazaars and brisk traffic are often fooled by their naiveté into thinking that the violence has been exaggerated. But it should be remembered that boys went swimming and fished not far from where the battle of Gettysburg was being fought in the U.S. Civil War. Guerrilla violence does not need to be omnipresent to effectively disrupt the society.

The government has no real sovereignty in the Sunni Arab regions. Urban areas such as Ramadi and Samarra are de facto city-states, ruled at night by the guerrilla movement; only in the day is there the fiction of control by Baghdad and the Marines. Likewise, heavily Sunni Arab portions of Diyala and Hilla provinces are a security no man's land. Even much of Baghdad is outside effective government or U.S. control, with provinces such as Dura and Adhamiya forming enclaves of what Sunni Arabs call "the Resistance
."

It seems obvious that the provinces with substantial Sunni Arab populations in Iraq secretly owe allegiance to political forces other than the elected government in Baghdad. The neo-Baath former captains and majors, the Salafi revivalist clerics, the Arab nationalist youth, the tribal leaders, and the leaders of city quarters form a fractured mosaic of alternative political and military power.

The elected provincial officials cooperating with the Baghdad government are more fugitives and potential victims than effective leaders. In Anbar, Salahuddin, Ninevah and Diyala, governors, provincial council members, police chiefs and elected municipal leaders cooperating with the new order in Baghdad have been serially killed, seen family members kidnapped, and resigned in defeat, over and over again.

The dozens of bodies that often show up in the streets of the capital in the morning, with hands bound and a Mafia-style bullet behind the right ear, are evidence of nighttime raids by Shiite paramilitaries and counter-raids by Sunni Arab guerrillas that form part of the wider civil war. Communal violence has occasionally escalated, with urban mobs fighting in Kirkuk in January of 2004, or Shiite crowds roaming the streets of Baghdad looking for Sunni Arabs to kill and Sunni mosques to burn down in the aftermath of the Feb. 22, 2006, blowing up of the al-Askari shrine in Samarra, which is beloved to Shiites.

The battle for oil-rich Kirkuk among Kurds, Arabs and Turkmen (who speak a language related to Turkish and are championed by nearby Ankara) is itself a sort of slow-motion civil war, with daily bombings and assassinations as the public manifestation of a larger underground struggle between Kurdish returnees and squatters and the others. The province has witnessed large-scale expulsions of Arab populations originally brought in as settlers by Saddam Hussein, as well as an influx of Kurdish squatters and settlers. A steady drumbeat of ethnic violence sounds in Kirkuk, with killings of Kurdish police by Arab and Turkmen guerrillas and vice versa. Kirkuk is not under Baghdad's control, and because of pipeline and other sabotage has been able to pump very little petroleum (it could hope to do 800,000 barrels a day on a good day, but manages on an average only a fourth of that).

The death toll from guerrilla activity and government ripostes, extrapolating from Allawi's estimate of 50 fatalities a day, is on the order of 18,000 a year, well above the 1,000 minimum suggested by Singer and his colleagues. There are no good estimates of the numbers or percentages of guerrillas killed vs. new Iraqi security forces, but if the police are included in the latter, anecdotal evidence suggests that the guerrillas inflict on government forces far more than 5 percent of the casualties they themselves sustain.

Singer and other social scientists working on the Correlates of War Project at the University of Michigan find that civil wars are associated with low levels of economic development in postcolonial states, with what they call semi-democracy as opposed to full democracy, and with high levels of military spending. It is not clear, however, that once they have begun, such civil wars can be settled through small-scale political compromise.

To be sure, the civil war in Iraq could be more acute. Nonetheless, Iraq is in civil war, as social scientists define it. We have a good notion of how it fell into civil war, and the responsibility the U.S. bears for that outcome. What remains unknown is whether the Bush administration can do anything effective about it. The relative passivity of U.S. forces during the sectarian riots after the Golden Shrine was destroyed, and Rumsfeld's startling pledge that the U.S. military would stay out of civil war-type conflicts, do not inspire faith that it can.

Bush will continue to mouth his optimistic slogans -- he has no choice. But he is now at the mercy of events. A catastrophic, or even significant, downturn in Iraq may strip the last shreds of public support for Bush's ill-fated war, and send his presidency into a downward spiral from which, like the tragedy in Iraq, there may be no escape.
 
MoxManiac said:
Solrac, now is our time to strike, while iraq has the spotlight! To the Doom Tank!!


but we're getting so much bussines from the chaos......


Solrac, you defeatist, you pessimist, you killjoy, you wet blanket, why are you always so negative? I notice this juicy nugget of happiness slipped right past your radar:
U.S., British Troops Rescue Iraq Hostages

Now if only we can resue the entire fucking country in the same way, everything would be alllll right.

welll...... three down, 264 more foreigners kidnapped to go.
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
evil solrac v3.0 said:
but we're getting so much bussines from the chaos......




welll...... three down, 264 more foreigners kidnapped to go.

And sure, this also came up today: At Least 56 Dead in Latest Iraq Violence but by golly if it doesn't warm the heart and fill my nutbags with spunky hope to see those 3 Christians saved. Although I guess, being Christians, they were technically saved already, youknowwhatI'msayin'?
 
Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Canadian forces also took part in the rescue operation, although their role was unclear.

Ha, yeah right Harper.

JTF2 bringing the storm in Iraq motherfuckers!

Jtf2.jpg
 

Yamauchi

Banned
The UN defines "major wars" as wars with more than 1,000 KIA in one year. Iraq has had 1,000 KIA from sectarian violence in the last month, so I think that pretty much fits the description of a civil war.
 

Tiger

Banned
Iraq very well may be in a civil war right now.


But has anyone else considered how long people have been claiming such a thing? People have been trying to claim there was gonna be a civil war for over a year now, so I guess they got what they wanted it seems.


It's not about denying the truth, if there is a civil war, there is a civil war, but it just seems like some people might have almost been hoping for a civil war all along so they can be the first to scream "I told you so, see!!!!!!". I find that to be sad. :|

I think the amount of debate alone on whether exactly there is a civil war is proof enough that some people love to celebrate anything that they see as bad news over there. This is just the cherry on top for them.
 
Tiger said:
Iraq very well may be in a civil war right now.


But has anyone else considered how long people have been claiming such a thing? People have been trying to claim there was gonna be a civil war for over a year now, so I guess they got what they wanted it seems.


It's not about denying the truth, if there is a civil war, there is a civil war, but it just seems like some people might have almost been hoping for a civil war all along so they can be the first to scream "I told you so, see!!!!!!". I find that to be sad. :|

I think the amount of debate alone on whether exactly there is a civil war is proof enough that some people love to celebrate anything that they see as bad news over there. This is just the cherry on top for them.


i see it more as a warning. military and civilian leaders were warning about this as a result of this war. this is just the end result.
 

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
Tiger said:
Sure, there's a civil war. I'm not going to deny the truth.

What I'm going to do is change the subject. Liberals WANT a civil war in Iraq! I know this because...
Mentok.jpg


In any case, I feel that people disagreeing with me is much more offensive than people getting slaughtered in ethnic violence.
That about sums it up, doesn't it?

You're making a run-of-the-mill bad faith argument ("You don't really believe/care about X!"). When confronted with something as horrible as a civil war, that your own government had a hand in, the best you can do is insult the critics of the war for something you made up in your head?
 
Mandark said:
That about sums it up, doesn't it?

You're making a run-of-the-mill bad faith argument ("You don't really believe/care about X!"). When confronted with something as horrible as a civil war, that your own government had a hand in, the best you can do is insult the critics of the war for something you made up in your head?


admitting there is a civil war would i guess be akin to admitting failure on the part of the bush administration.
 

MetatronM

Unconfirmed Member
Tiger said:
Iraq very well may be in a civil war right now.


But has anyone else considered how long people have been claiming such a thing? People have been trying to claim there was gonna be a civil war for over a year now, so I guess they got what they wanted it seems.


It's not about denying the truth, if there is a civil war, there is a civil war, but it just seems like some people might have almost been hoping for a civil war all along so they can be the first to scream "I told you so, see!!!!!!". I find that to be sad. :|

I think the amount of debate alone on whether exactly there is a civil war is proof enough that some people love to celebrate anything that they see as bad news over there. This is just the cherry on top for them.
I've been saying since before the US deposed Saddam that the enventual result of such an action would be a civil war. I must be a psychic.

I must also be dancing in the streets, thrilled to death that hundreds and thousands are dying for the noble cause of proving me right to message board denizens everywhere.

Hallelujah! I sure showed those faceless internet people I've never met before!
 

NLB2

Banned
Look at all the American deaths in this war! Vietnam!!!!
Oh wait, there've been less than 2000 KIA and deaths have been declining rapidly over the last five months...
AHhha the Iraqi Army is a failure! First there were three operational battalions, then only one!
This is one of my favorite ones to hear from people when this news came out a while back. People didn't realize why the number dropped from three to one - because two of the battalions took on rules as educators. Since then, the Iraqi Security Forces have proven over and over again that they're dedicated to preserving Iraqi democracy.
Iraq is civil war!!!
yeah, we haven't heard this one before. This racket's been going on as long as the war has.

We've been hearing all of this stuff for the last three years and so far none of the nightmare scenarios people would have you believe have come true.
 
NLB2 said:
Oh wait, there've been less than 2000 KIA and deaths have been declining rapidly over the last five months...

This is one of my favorite ones to hear from people when this news came out a while back. People didn't realize why the number dropped from three to one - because two of the battalions took on rules as educators. Since then, the Iraqi Security Forces have proven over and over again that they're dedicated to preserving Iraqi democracy.

yeah, we haven't heard this one before. This racket's been going on as long as the war has.

We've been hearing all of this stuff for the last three years and so far none of the nightmare scenarios people would have you believe have come true.


for you to compare vietnam to iraq shows you dont know squat. vietnam was a way more intense conflict. and no nightmare scenarios? yeah, it's all peachy.
 

Tiger

Banned
Mandark said:
That about sums it up, doesn't it?

You're making a run-of-the-mill bad faith argument ("You don't really believe/care about X!"). When confronted with something as horrible as a civil war, that your own government had a hand in, the best you can do is insult the critics of the war for something you made up in your head?
I'm not insulting the critics of the war at all. I'm a critic of the war myself. I think it was a bad idea and if I could rewind time and make it not happen, I would.


My comments were directed at some people in the media and elsewhere who seem to have been trying to call a civil war for a long time now. Now that there finally seems to be actual signs of a civil war brewing, those same people now seem to be giddy to hear someone else of importance actually say it.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Tiger said:
I'm not insulting the critics of the war at all. I'm a critic of the war myself. I think it was a bad idea and if I could rewind time and make it not happen, I would.


My comments were directed at some people in the media and elsewhere who seem to have been trying to call a civil war for a long time now. Now that there finally seems to be actual signs of a civil war brewing, those same people now seem to be giddy to proclaim it from the mountain tops and use it as reason #4536 to say George Bush is evil.

George Bush did a pretty stupid thing by going into Iraq, but people can say that without sounding like they're thrilled to have a new reason to hate the guy. You know the people i'm talking about. It's all in how people present their opinion.

Some people seem to hate Bush so much that they actually celebrate bad news that they can then point towards him. Sure, he is the one the to blame for an Iraq civil war, but that shouldn't be something exciting for people to talk about. It's horrible news and thats it. Bush/Blair are to blame for it, but that horse has long been beaten dead by now. I'd like to hear people talk about how Iraq might actually be fixed now and somehow become a decent country. I sure hope that can happen one day. :/

It's not a 'new reason' to hate bush. It's just that now more people will understand how big a mistake Bush has made. And hate him like the rest of us have for the longest time now (since he stepped into office).
 

maynerd

Banned
Tiger said:
I'm not insulting the critics of the war at all. I'm a critic of the war myself. I think it was a bad idea and if I could rewind time and make it not happen, I would.


My comments were directed at some people in the media and elsewhere who seem to have been trying to call a civil war for a long time now. Now that there finally seems to be actual signs of a civil war brewing, those same people now seem to be giddy to hear someone else of importance actually say it.

I don't think there were many people who were saying that Iraq was in a civil war. I think that the signs of a civil war have been "brewing" for some time now and people were talking about that but not many were really forcefully saying this until Murtha expressed his concern. I personally believe (many others agree) that civil war is occuring right now.

I don't know of anyone who is giddy about bad news from Iraq.

We need to remove our troops from this civil war and let the Iraq people sort this out.
 

NLB2

Banned
evil solrac v3.0 said:
for you to compare vietnam to iraq shows you dont know squat. vietnam was a way more intense conflict. and no nightmare scenarios? yeah, it's all peachy.
Yeah, no shit its not like Vietnam. When did I say it was?
 
In all honesty I don't think the general population care.
It's th 'If they're busy blowing each other up atleast they won't be trying to blow us up' mentality.
 

NLB2

Banned
evil solrac v3.0 said:
you're trying to use the argument that fewer casualties somehow means that this war isnt going so bad.
So there are few casualties, there is a unified nation ruled by a single, american backed gov't, there are no mobile enemy forces, the population seems to be with America, the ISF are performing very well (they've even got their own SOF unit). You want to tell me the war is going badly?
 
NLB2 said:
So there are few casualties, there is a unified nation ruled by a single, american backed gov't, there are no mobile enemy forces, the population seems to be with America, the ISF are performing very well (they've even got their own SOF unit). You want to tell me the war is going badly?


the nation is unified to you? every ethnic group has their own militia, the army is infiltrated by all three and are more loyal to their ethnic groups than the national govt.

there are no mobile enemy forces

WHAT?

the population seems to be with America

must be why just about every poll there says that iraqis want the troops gone. must be why there is an ever growing insurgency.

......... well, it's your opinion. it just happens to be ill-informed.
 

NLB2

Banned
evil solrac v3.0 said:
the nation is unified to you? every ethnic group has their own militia, the army is infiltrated by all three and are more loyal to their ethnic groups than the national govt.



WHAT?



must be why just about every poll there says that iraqis want the troops gone. must be why there is an ever growing insurgency.

......... well, it's your opinion. it just happens to be ill-informed.
Ever growing insurgency explains why Iraqi military keeps on getting better and better and US casualties keep on going down and down...
Unified gov't meaing there's not two different gov't, like in Vietnam. Of course not everyone supports it. Not everyone supports our american gov't, are you gonna say America isn't a unified nation? And of course the Army is "infiltrated" by every ethnic group - its made up of every ethnic group, however they almost all fight for Iraq - hence the terrorist plot being busted up last week. And no shit everyone wants the troops gone :lol
 
NLB2 said:
Ever growing insurgency explains why Iraqi military keeps on getting better and better and US casualties keep on going down and down...
Unified gov't meaing there's not two different gov't, like in Vietnam. Of course not everyone supports it. Not everyone supports our american gov't, are you gonna say America isn't a unified nation? And of course the Army is "infiltrated" by every ethnic group - its made up of every ethnic group, however they almost all fight for Iraq - hence the terrorist plot being busted up last week. And no shit everyone wants the troops gone :lol


and you forget to mention how the insurgents can and do strike at will. the american casualties arent going down. the number of dead may be down this month but the wounded are higher. also dont forget the insurgents are focusing on the iraqi police and military.

Unified gov't meaing there's not two different gov't, like in Vietnam. Of course not everyone supports it. Not everyone supports our american gov't, are you gonna say America isn't a unified nation


wow......
 
Yamauchi said:
The UN defines "major wars" as wars with more than 1,000 KIA in one year. Iraq has had 1,000 KIA from sectarian violence in the last month, so I think that pretty much fits the description of a civil war.

Uh huh. Too bad the UN is irrelevant. /Republican
 

NLB2

Banned
evil solrac v3.0 said:
and you forget to mention how the insurgents can and do strike at will. the american casualties arent going down. the number of dead may be down this month but the wounded are higher. also dont forget the insurgents are focusing on the iraqi police and military.
Yeah, they strike at will, that's why they're doing such a great job killing Americans... 18 American KIAs in March so far - cause the opponent can strike at will...
 
NLB2 said:
Yeah, they strike at will, that's why they're doing such a great job killing Americans... 18 American KIAs in March so far - cause the opponent can strike at will...


so i guess there is no correlation between the sectarian violence and the fact that the insurgents have been focusing on the shi'iites? nah, guess not.
 

Tiger

Banned
NLB2 said:
Yeah, they strike at will, that's why they're doing such a great job killing Americans... 18 American KIAs in March so far - cause the opponent can strike at will...
It's not cool to act like 18 Americans dead is no big deal man. Thats still 18 people that will never come home. Ever.
 
Tiger said:
It's not cool to act like 18 Americans dead is no big deal man. Thats still 18 people that will never come home. Ever.


but according to him that's a measure of progress. of course he forgets that the number of wounded has gone up, sectarian violence is through the roof. etc, etc. but hey, it's the first time in a long time that for a given month there will be less than 30 killed so that must be progress we needed right?
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Tiger said:
My comments were directed at some people in the media and elsewhere who seem to have been trying to call a civil war for a long time now. Now that there finally seems to be actual signs of a civil war brewing, those same people now seem to be giddy to hear someone else of importance actually say it.
No one's been sitting around wishing for a civil war. Some of us just aren't dumb and didn't buy the whole "we'll be greeted as liberators" bullshit. Some of us have observed history and learned from it. Not this administration of course.

Only an idiot would not have predicted a large conflict when the power relations between Iraq's religious factions was upset by Hussein's removal. We've seen this same shit time after time over the last few decades. When a minority group is in power over the majority, shit goes down when that system collapses. We only had to look to the last decade with the violence in Rwanda and around Bosnia during the 90s for case studies.
 

NLB2

Banned
Tiger said:
It's not cool to act like 18 Americans dead is no big deal man. Thats still 18 people that will never come home. Ever.
And its about 1800 less than if the insurgents could strike at will.
 

Tiger

Banned
Dan said:
No one's been sitting around wishing for a civil war. Some of us just aren't dumb and didn't buy the whole "we'll be greeted as liberators" bullshit. Some of us have observed history and learned from it. Not this administration of course.

Only an idiot would not have predicted a large conflict when the power relations between Iraq's religious factions was upset by Hussein's removal. We've seen this same shit time after time over the last few decades. When a minority group is in power over the majority, shit goes down when that system collapses. We only had to look to the last decade with the violence in Rwanda and around Bosnia during the 90s for case studies.
You're right. There are lots of examples for civil wars and how they happen. Iraq does have a recipe for a civil war with all of it's ethnic groups living together.


However, i'm talking about the media and other outspoken critics who seem to want to use that "civil war" word at the very earliest moment they could possibly use it. They started with the talk of it over a year ago. Then they kept asking "when is it gonna happen?", then finally when it appears it might be happening it's like a freaking race to see who can put "CIVIL WAR" as the headline on their newspaper or blog. It's just an odd and sad race for some folks. It's all about being right and wanting to justify your claims that you've been making for so long.

Why don't those same people choose to use some restraint and only call it a civil war when it really is a full blown civil war? Why does it seem like some have this desire to use that word at the first sight of sectarian violence? I happen to believe it's because some people are so wrapped up in Iraq being a failure, and the U.S being stupid for going there, that they literally seem to look for new ways to say that it's a failure, and tell everyone how right they are about it. Just imagine how those same "failure" talkers would look if Iraq suddenly turned a corner and got better? Do you really think all the doomsdayers and naysayers would come out of the woodwork and proudly proclaim "Wow, it worked out in the end"? I seriously doubt it. They've spent far to much time and invested far too much of their own credibility in Iraq's failure to suddenly admit that they were wrong and that Iraq could turn into a wonderful democracy.
 

maynerd

Banned
Tiger said:
You're right. There are lots of examples for civil wars and how they happen. Iraq does have a recipe for a civil war with all of it's ethnic groups living together.


However, i'm talking about the media and other outspoken critics who seem to want to use that "civil war" word at the very earliest moment they could possibly use it. They started with the talk of it over a year ago. Then they kept asking "when is it gonna happen?", then finally when it appears it might be happening it's like a freaking race to see who can put "CIVIL WAR" as the headline on their newspaper or blog. It's just an odd and sad race for some folks. It's all about being right and wanting to justify your claims that you've been making for so long.

Why don't those same people choose to use some restraint and only call it a civil war when it really is a full blown civil war? Why does it seem like some have this desire to use that word at the first sight of sectarian violence? I happen to believe it's because some people are so wrapped up in Iraq being a failure, and the U.S being stupid for going there, that they literally seem to look for new ways to say that it's a failure, and tell everyone how right they are about it. Just imagine how those same "failure" talkers would look if Iraq suddenly turned a corner and got better? Do you really think all the doomsdayers and naysayers would come out of the woodwork and proudly proclaim "Wow, it worked out in the end"? I seriously doubt it. They've spent far to much time and invested far too much of their own credibility in Iraq's failure to suddenly admit that they were wrong and that Iraq could turn into a wonderful democracy.

You are missing the whole point. IF the media is doing this...making it seem like there is a civil war is going on when a civil war isn't happening...pushing the "bad" side of Iraq...why would they do that? To what end? What are they trying to accomplish? I ask you that and based upon your response to that I'll correct you.
 

ronito

Member
I have to disagree with le tigre...again. I think that this whole civil war thing has been under-reported/downplayed by the US media. Watch any international news (even Univision) and you'll see a lot of stuff about that Iraq situation that you don't here. Heck, the fact that they're still calling this "sectarian violence" really goes against your point.
 

Tiger

Banned
maynerd said:
You are missing the whole point. IF the media is doing this...making it seem like there is a civil war is going on when a civil war isn't happening...pushing the "bad" side of Iraq...why would they do that? To what end? What are they trying to accomplish? I ask you that and based upon your response to that I'll correct you.
Well, i'll quickly tell you about a friend of mine. He's always been a democrat/liberal dude. So of course he was pissed when Bush won the election in 2000, and he claimed from that day on that this was not a fairly elected president. As we headed into 2002 and the Iraq war become a bigger and bigger story, he become more and more against it. He decided he was against the idea from day one. As the war approached he was more against it.

So, here we are in 2006 and my friend is still against the war in Iraq. He still hates George Bush and he thinks he's pretty much the worst human being in the world. Do you really think he would have fairly acknowledged the war in Iraq was a good idea if we had found WMD, and everything had gone perfectly? That would have been an awful big chunk of crow to swallow for one person. IMO, people like my friend decided they were against that war the moment they saw the first opposition forming against it. They hated the president the day he took office and the moment they saw an opportunity to point to and say he's a bad guy, they did. It just so happens that history has worked in their favor so far and the war in Iraq has been a complete mess. But, what if it wasn't such a mess? Would they have been able to acknowledge that? Unlikely IMO. Apply that same story to each of those three groups I mentioned, and you'll have my entire answer.


To clarify that even a little more for you. At one point I asked my friend this question. "If we could make the Iraq war go much better right now and things worked out really well there, and Bush got the credit for it, would want such a thing to happen"? He plainly admitted to my face that he wouldn't. So, for me, i've seen how partisan some people truly are, and how die hard they truly get. For some people they invest so much of their own ego into these issues, that they decide they're never gonna agree with the opposition and they will do and say whatever they can in hopes of justifying that viewpoint they've held all along.
 

maynerd

Banned
Tiger said:
Well, i'll quickly tell you about a friend of mine. He's always been a democrat/liberal dude. So of course he was pissed when Bush won the election in 2000, and he claimed from that day on that this was not a fairly elected president. As we headed into 2002 and the Iraq war become a bigger and bigger story, he become more and more against it. He decided he was against the idea from day one. As the war approached he was more against it.

So, here we are in 2006 and my friend is still against the war in Iraq. He still hates George Bush and he thinks he's pretty much the worst human being in the world. Do you really think he would have fairly acknowledged the war in Iraq was a good idea if we had found WMD, and everything had gone perfectly? That would have been an awful big chunk of crow to swallow for one person. IMO, people like my friend decided they were against that war the moment they saw the first opposition forming against it. They hated the president the day he took office and the moment they saw an opportunity to point to and say he's a bad guy, they did. It just so happens that history has worked in their favor so far and the war in Iraq has been a complete mess. But, what if it wasn't such a mess? Would they have been able to acknowledge that? Unlikely IMO. Apply that same story to each of those three groups I mentioned, and you'll have my entire answer.


To clarify that even a little more for you. At one point I asked my friend this question. "If we could make the Iraq war go much better right now and things worked out really well there, and Bush got the credit for it, would want such a thing to happen"? He plainly admitted to my face that he wouldn't. So, for me, i've seen how partisan some people truly are, and how die hard they truly get. For some people they invest so much of their own ego into these issues, that they decide they're never gonna agree with the opposition and they will do and say whatever they can in hopes of justifying that viewpoint they've held all along.

This really has nothing to do with what I asked you. I asked you a question, why can't you answer it? When you answer that I'll respond. This is your first correction.
 

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
There are two Major League Baseball teams that I could call my home team. Both of them are going to suck this year. I don't want them to suck, but the evidence is just too clear to ignore. For whatever reason, I can hold this opinion without being labeled "anti-Oriole" or "anti-National," or being accused of giving aid and comfort to the Toronto Blue Jays.

Now, I realize you haven't accused me. You've accused some vague number of unnamed media figures, pundits, an amateur wonks. This seems to be based on 1) the use of the word civil war before the situation in Iraq met your own personal definition of a civil war, and 2) your anonymous friend.

To me, the simplest explanation is this: There has been mainstream speculation of the possibility of a civil war in Iraq because the warning signs were so apparent (ethnic division, an armed insurgency, independent militias) that any respectable expert would have to discuss it.

Also remember the context of the debate. Accusations of non-patriotism and treason have been thrown about by hawks as a way of stifling dissent. The assertion has been made repeatedly that negative media coverage actually hurts the war effort in Iraq.

You are making the same accusation of "hoping for failure" here, whether you claim to be a critic of the war or not. Instead of taking the experts who were correct at face value, you've decided the important issue is your perception of their patriotism.

The only thing this can possibly do is add to an environment where people fear to speak truth to power, because delivering bad news will brand you of having caused, or hoped for, that news.
 

Tiger

Banned
maynerd said:
This really has nothing to do with what I asked you. I asked you a question, why can't you answer it? When you answer that I'll respond. This is your first correction.
Well, in a hutshell I was trying to explain that I believe there are a lot of similarities between my friend and the media, democrats in congress, and random but outspoken war critics on blogs and message boards. IMO, many people in those three groups have now invested their own ego into the failure of Iraq.

I also think, (and many of them will plainly admit it) that they hated the way the election of 2000 turned out. So, with that template in place, they were quite excited to jump on the anti war bandwagon as this Iraq issue got pushed to the forefront and they saw some criticism begin. How genuine is someone's critique when they hated the person from the beginning anyway?


Mandark said:
There are two Major League Baseball teams that I could call my home team. Both of them are going to suck this year. I don't want them to suck, but the evidence is just too clear to ignore. For whatever reason, I can hold this opinion without being labeled "anti-Oriole" or "anti-National," or being accused of giving aid and comfort to the Toronto Blue Jays.

Now, I realize you haven't accused me. You've accused some vague number of unnamed media figures, pundits, an amateur wonks. This seems to be based on 1) the use of the word civil war before the situation in Iraq met your own personal definition of a civil war, and 2) your anonymous friend.

To me, the simplest explanation is this: There has been mainstream speculation of the possibility of a civil war in Iraq because the warning signs were so apparent (ethnic division, an armed insurgency, independent militias) that any respectable expert would have to discuss it.

Also remember the context of the debate. Accusations of non-patriotism and treason have been thrown about by hawks as a way of stifling dissent. The assertion has been made repeatedly that negative media coverage actually hurts the war effort in Iraq.

You are making the same accusation of "hoping for failure" here, whether you claim to be a critic of the war or not. Instead of taking the experts who were correct at face value, you've decided the important issue is your perception of their patriotism.

The only thing this can possibly do is add to an environment where people fear to speak truth to power, because delivering bad news will brand you of having caused, or hoped for, that news.
I understand your feelings here. There has been an effort by some to question people's patriotism when they become very critical of the war in Iraq. In most ways I think this is very unfortunate and truly unfair to do.

There are some people though who are quite obviously against the U.S and most of the things it does. They're happy to flast out proclaim they think the U.S is "imperialistic" and basically out to take over the world. So, there is a lot of grey area there and often times people will throw a lot of people into that same gray area and label them all non patriots to some degree. It's just an unfortunate side effect of a huge national debate on this issue for so long. Eventually the sides become more and more seperated and each side gets grouped into clusters of opinions, fairly or not.

I believe this war was a huge mistake. The cost of lives and money has just been terrible. Not only are the 2,500 American lives a large loss, but the many thousands of Iraqi's who have died is just horrible to ponder. I was not quite sure what to think at the beginning of this war. I saw the potential threats and the potential gains that would come with the overthrow of Hussein. I also thought that many people in the administration had a hard on for going into Iraq for a long time. 9/11 gave them the perfect opportunity and they took it. But, in the end I was still willing to consider the possibility that they might be correct, and this might do a lot of good. I also felt there was some legal justification based on U.N resolutions that were passed. I agreed with the administration viewpoint that the U.N needed to stand up and make their resolutions and threats mean something by taking action when they threaten it.

Obviously I have now decided that the entire thing was just wrong. Not legally wrong, but just (bad idea x 1000). I believe that once they saw that most of the world was not gonna back them on this, they should have left it alone. But, thats where their hard on came into play. :/ They wanted to do it and they were gonna do it regardless.

So, now that things are such a clusterfuck I am of the opinion that we ought to try and make it work out ok. I believe this can still happen. I guess i've just always been an optomist. While things have been messy as shit, I think some good things have obviously occured. There have been elections and things are moving forward, albeit slowly. So i'd like to see us stay for now and continue to try and fix things. I just don't think you can go in there and do what we've done, and then leave before you put the place back together ok. We've got to give them a government and a military that can support themselves. Leaving now would only make the whole thing a bigger clusterfuck than it already is. I think everybody knows that though. Thats why I can't help but question the motives of those who say "get out now", because I can't help but wonder if doing that would really just make them feel better because then they would forever be happy that the conclusion they predicted will be correct. It's as if they fear Iraq turning out ok in the future and they might have to acknowledge it. I see this stuff.

IMO, we have to stay and even with all the mess and shit, I still believe there is a chance things can turn out alright there. That doesn't make Bush a hero, but it will make the troops who sacrificed their lives for it, and the Iraqis who died in the process heroes.
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
To prevent this from happening, Bush has been giving speeches and answering public questions

And he sounds like a total noob when he does as well. Horrible horrible horrible public speaker, just goes off on weird tangents, somebody said something along the lines of "didn't you clearly go into iraq just for oil" (but dressed in loads of "thanks for coming mister president, love your work" etc) and he pretty much blatantly said "No we have to stop terrorism, the Taliban was hiding Osama from us"

Even though I had a fever and still do, I'm pretty sure the Taliban doesn't live in Iraq.

NLB2 can't be a serious poster.
 

maynerd

Banned
Tiger said:
Well, in a hutshell I was trying to explain that I believe there are a lot of similarities between my friend and the media, democrats in congress, and random but outspoken war critics on blogs and message boards. IMO, many people in those three groups have now invested their own ego into the failure of Iraq.

I also think, (and many of them will plainly admit it) that they hated the way the election of 2000 turned out. So, with that template in place, they were quite excited to jump on the anti war bandwagon as this Iraq issue got pushed to the forefront and they saw some criticism begin. How genuine is someone's critique when they hated the person from the beginning anyway?

When will you answer my question? I'll repeat it for you. This is your second correction.

Maynerd said:
You are missing the whole point. IF the media is doing this...making it seem like there is a civil war is going on when a civil war isn't happening...pushing the "bad" side of Iraq...why would they do that? To what end? What are they trying to accomplish? I ask you that and based upon your response to that I'll correct you.
 

Tiger

Banned
maynerd said:
When will you answer my question? I'll repeat it for you. This is your second correction.
I feel like you're trying to paint me into a particular corner so you can pummel me with your own opinion Maynerd. :lol


I've just told you that I think the majority of mainstream media fits into my friend's mindset. I also think a lot of the mainstream media want to draw historical comparisons to Vietnam, and we all know the press had a large hand in getting the U.S to pull out of Vietnam when we did. The media has a big effect on public opinion and they know if they convince the people the war is a bad idea, that the war is likely to end sooner rather than later. So, often times that message can push the way a story is covered.

Time and time again we see members of the media "coming out of the closet" to some degree with their left thinking political feelings. Did you see that email posted on Drudge yesterday from the ABC News producer? Those sorts of things are not uncommon.
 
evil solrac v3.0 said:
In contrast, George W. Bush said at a news conference on Tuesday, "We all recognized that there is violence, that there is sectarian violence. But the way I look at the situation is the Iraqis looked and decided not to go into civil war."


Good to know that clear heads are prevailing over there. Thanks for the clarification, Bush.


evil solrac v3.0 said:
In contrast, George W. Bush said at a news conference on Tuesday, "We all recognized that there is violence, that there is sectarian violence. But the way I look at the situation is the Iraqis looked and decided not to go into civil war."

I'd love to hear an explanation of how sustained violence between distinct sects is different from a civil war.
 

maynerd

Banned
Tiger said:
I feel like you're trying to paint me into a particular corner so you can pummel me with your own opinion Maynerd. :lol

Maybe I am :) Actually I'm just trying to understand what you are saying.


Tiger said:
I've just told you that I think the majority of mainstream media fits into my friend's mindset. I also think a lot of the mainstream media want to draw historical comparisons to Vietnam, and we all know the press had a large hand in getting the U.S to pull out of Vietnam when we did. The media has a big effect on public opinion and they know if they convince the people the war is a bad idea, that the war is likely to end sooner rather than later. So, often times that message can push the way a story is covered.

Time and time again we see members of the media "coming out of the closet" to some degree with their left thinking political feelings. Did you see that email posted on Drudge yesterday from the ABC News producer? Those sorts of things are not uncommon.

So ok in your opinion the media wants the war to end. I think I got that. Why do they want the war to end? What is their motive? What are they ultimately trying to accomplish? Do you honestly believe that the media doesn't have the public interest in mind? Is it just for ratings?

I still don't think you've answered my original question. It's a pretty straight forward question man.
 
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