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[Molemitts]

1. I've somehow managed... I just want it to end...
2. What do you mean "human element"? Gurren Lagann and Evangelion were entirely focused on the "human element". Do you mean the physicality between humans in a fight?
3. Hyperbole right? Right?
I can understand wanting an overarching plot but not every story is meant to be structured that way. I'm assuming you just mean that in terms of story structure and not the tropes within it. I'd rather not have every story use "anyone can die" by default.

1. I hate never ending animes too who has time for that?
2. There's no human element in the fighting it all comes outside of combat (even if I don't think NGE's characters are interesting) It trades all the drama of fighting for action.
3. I agree, not every story has to be about a huge overarching plot element. Stories about individuals are fine. Personally, I prefer if you can link in the individuals into something bigger but it doesn't always have to be like that. That's just my taste.

What do you mean by "I'd rather not have every story use "anyone can die" by default."? Because having characters that can't die and are never at risk bores me to hell. Another huge problem with anime.

 

[BocoDragon]

1. I hate never ending animes too who has time for that?
2. There's no human element in the fighting it all comes outside of combat (even if I don't think NGE's characters are interesting) It trades all the drama of fighting for action.
3. I agree, not every story has to be about a huge overarching plot element. Stories about individuals are fine. Personally, I prefer if you can link in the individuals into something bigger but it doesn't always have to be like that. That's just my taste.

What do you mean by "I'd rather not have every story use "anyone can die" by default."? Because having characters that can't die and are never at risk bores me to hell. Another huge problem with anime.

The thing is that Evangelion did give way to a detailed and interconnecting plot. I still say you jumped off just when it was getting interesting - everything experimental and unique about that show was in the back half (those last 2 episodes are the most insane thing put on TV). But it also might just be a matter of your tastes.

 

[Molemitts]

The thing is that Evangelion did give way to a detailed and interconnecting plot. I still say you jumped off just when it was getting interesting. But it also might just be a matter of your tastes.

To be honest, I don't care. I only watched, and got that far into it, because of all the praise but I didn't enjoy a single second of it. I'm not gonna bother with it. I know who it ends too and I think that it's dumb.

 

[sonicmj1]

No problem, I mean you're completely correct to say anime is aimed at kids (young kids and then teenagers) but you can't forget that anime is also aimed at creeps! Just remember: anime is for kids and creeps!

(I'm kind of being serious here).

To elaborate on this, in the TV world there are basically two kinds of anime: anime that air at real people hours, and late-night anime. Anime that air on weekend mornings, afternoons, or even primetime (like Sazae-san, the most popular anime in Japan) are broadly targeted, usually to kids or teens. In terms of shows that get attention here, these are usually long-running adaptations of kids action manga like Naruto, Hunter x Hunter, or One Piece. Because they run at hours when TVs get eyeballs, they can more or less justify themselves off of advertising revenue.

Late-night anime usually air after midnight, often on weekdays. This is like, infomercial time for most stations, so they're not going to make much money by airing. Those anime usually exist to promote some other, cheaper product, like a manga or a light novel. The only way the product itself can make its money back is through disc sales, but Japanese DVD and Blu-ray prices for TV shows are astronomical compared to the US market, with most shows selling a series three to four episodes at a time for the equivalent of $60-$80.

Productions can justify themselves by spiking the sales for an associated property, but if they're going to make their money back, they have to find a way to appeal to 5,000-10,000 people who are crazy enough to spend $250 to own four hours of television. It's a niche market, so shows are targeted to niche fanatics. Hence, the market as it is.

There's very little room for shows that challenge their audience, because anyone who's an actual customer fits in a pretty narrow range of tastes. So even original works have to fit into a safe framework so they can be sold, and rare artistic passion projects usually just create losses.

Even within these constraints, a lot of interesting stuff gets made each year, but there are plenty of stories that don't get told in anime because there's no business reason to fund hundreds of thousands of dollars per episode to tell them.

 

[Moral Panic]

Noitamina slot was supposed to tackle this, no?

 

[BocoDragon]

To be honest, I don't care. I only watched, and got that far into it, because of all the praise but I didn't enjoy a single second of it. I'm not gonna bother with it. I know who it ends too and I think that it's dumb.

I guess it's not your show... or your medium for that matter.

I personally will never click with any western fantasy, similarly.... there's just no accounting for taste.

 

[Molemitts]

I guess it's not your show... or your medium for that matter.

I personally will never click with any western fantasy, similarly.... there's just no accounting for taste.

I'm not a huge fan of western fantasy either. All that chosen one bullshit and "these are the good guys and those are that bad guys" crap can go away. Game of Thrones takes in interesting twist on fantasy because it's actually character based and I love it.

But I'm not here to promote Game of Thrones and I'm sure that you also don't care.

 

[sonicmj1]

Noitamina slot was supposed to tackle this, no?

It was, and sometimes it still is. A lot of the shows people have recommended for Stumpokapow were aired in that time slot, like Honey and Clover, Eden of the East, Wandering Son, and Bunny Drop. But they got sick of not making money, so now for every Ping Pong or Silver Spoon they air there also has to be a Guilty Crown or a Robotics;Notes that aims squarely at the traditional otaku market.

 

[-Ryn]

1. I hate never ending animes too who has time for that?
2. There's no human element in the fighting it all comes outside of combat (even if I don't think NGE's characters are interesting) It trades all the drama of fighting for action.
3. I agree, not every story has to be about a huge overarching plot element. Stories about individuals are fine. Personally, I prefer if you can link in the individuals into something bigger but it doesn't always have to be like that. That's just my taste.

What do you mean by "I'd rather not have every story use "anyone can die" by default."? Because having characters that can't die and are never at risk bores me to hell. Another huge problem with anime.

I think the biggest threat to long series is writer fatigue. The longer a series goes on the more it has to keep in mind while creating new ideas. Internal consistency can be a bitch.

Hmm... maybe we just differ on what we find "human" in the action. A lot of the drama in Gurren Lagann for instance (while extremely heavy on action which is what it's out to do anyway) comes from the characters own ability to fight at all. Their ability to continue to fight despite facing impossible odds.

What I mean is that there are many different types of stories. Not all of them are suited for the exploration of death or its consequences. For instance if I sat down to watch a light hearted comedy, having to worry about the characters dying out of the blue (unless done in a funny way) would not fit within the structure of it. That's not to say I don't like death in my stories. As you said when there isn't any risk then it can become dull. However having death looming over your story constantly doesn't work for every story.

Sorry if I worded that weird. I hope it made sense.

 

[BocoDragon]

I'm not a huge fan of western fantasy either. All that chosen one bullshit and "these are the good guys and those are that bad guys" crap can go away. Game of Thrones takes in interesting twist on fantasy because it's actually character based and I love it.

But I'm not here to promote Game of Thrones and I'm sure that you also don't care.

I've been told that I may enjoy it even though I usually hate fantasy. Anyhow we'll leave it at that.

 

[Jex]

Noitamina slot was supposed to tackle this, no?

Noitamina ended up just highlighting why people don't make anime for adults. Most of their projects didn't make them any money, so they had to start producing otaku material as well. Unsurprisingly, their otaku-bait stuff did far better e.g. AnoHana.

As sonicmj1 has said above they did make good stuff, and they still do, but the fact they diluted their content really demonstrates the business realities that govern the anime market can't be ignored.

 

[A_Gorilla]

I'm not a huge fan of western fantasy either. All that chosen one bullshit and "these are the good guys and those are that bad guys" crap can go away. Game of Thrones takes in interesting twist on fantasy because it's actually character based and I love it.

But I'm not here to promote Game of Thrones and I'm sure that you also don't care.

I'd be curious to know what fantasy you've been reading since I haven't seen any of that cliched fantasy stuff in recent Fantasy books for awhile, save for the Eragon books, and those have been lambasted (and rightly so) for exactly the reasons you described.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

I'd be curious to know what fantasy you've been reading since I haven't seen any of that cliched fantasy stuff in recent Fantasy books for awhile, save for the Eragon books, and those have been lambasted (and rightly so) for exactly the reasons you described.

I'd be interested in knowing what fantasy books you're reading, actually. I still find that stuf somewhat prevalent, but I tend to shy away from high fantasy in general because of it

 

[petran79]

in case you didnt know (I had copied the excerpt back then, but new website hasnt it yet):

http://spakeprm.com/2007/05/kanashimi_no_be.html

About the blacklisting: I've heard from a couple of interviews with longtime animators, I think one of them was otsuka himself , that at the time that people suspected of supporting communist ideology and who took part in protests had a hard time to get jobs in the cinema and television industry or with major newspapers and could only get jobs in "fringe" industries like porn films, animation and manga.
That was nothing like 50's witch hunt in the US as it was not officially enforced, but like some kind of unwritten rule.
And Toshio Okada said that was the main difference between the industry now, post anime boom and back then. There is not much about it to be found in english though, so you're gonna have to look it up on japanese media if you want more information.

 

[Pepboy]

No problem, I mean you're completely correct to say anime is aimed at kids (young kids and then teenagers) but you can't forget that anime is also aimed at creeps! Just remember: anime is for kids and creeps!

(I'm kind of being serious here).

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic. The poster came back and apologized specifically for what you are still criticizing for -- and admitted that he understands not all anime is directed for kids.

 

[A_Gorilla]

I'd be interested in knowing what fantasy books you're reading, actually. I still find that stuf somewhat prevalent, but I tend to shy away from high fantasy in general because of it

Well right now I'm reading one called The Way of Kings. Typical fantasy setting, but no chosen one, and every side gets their own viewpoint (the first sympathetic character we get is an assassin who just killed the decent king of a prosperous nation). It also subverts, though not to the extent of GoT, typical fantasy cliches. Near the beginning, we focus on one lowly soldier boy who looks likely he'll be shaping up to the be the typical Chosen One kid. Then the battle actually happens and he's killed off screen.

 

[Dead]

The decline of anime that westerners find palatable directly correlates to the burst of the anime bubble in the U.S. around 2006-2007 so. First half of the decade you had a lot of shows either taking western audiences in consideration of shows outright funded by foreigners.

That's all there is to it really. Nothing will change. If anything it will get worse as the industry chases that otaku money more and more as it will be their only audience left.

 

[Brakke]

The decline of anime that westerners find palatable directly correlates to the burst of the anime bubble in the U.S. around 2006-2007 so. First half of the decade you had a lot of shows either taking western audiences in of shows outright funded by foreigners.

That's all there is to it really. Nothing will change. If anything it will get worse as the industry chases that otaku money more and more as it will be their only audience left.

Did you cite one example of a massive shift as evidence that "nothing will change"?

 

[Molemitts]

I think the biggest threat to long series is writer fatigue. The longer a series goes on the more it has to keep in mind while creating new ideas. Internal consistency can be a bitch.

Hmm... maybe we just differ on what we find "human" in the action. A lot of the drama in Gurren Lagann for instance (while extremely heavy on action which is what it's out to do anyway) comes from the characters own ability to fight at all. Their ability to continue to fight despite facing impossible odds.

What I mean is that there are many different types of stories. Not all of them are suited for the exploration of death or its consequences. For instance if I sat down to watch a light hearted comedy, having to worry about the characters dying out of the blue (unless done in a funny way) would not fit within the structure of it. That's not to say I don't like death in my stories. As you said when there isn't any risk then it can become dull. However having death looming over your story constantly doesn't work for every story.

Sorry if I worded that weird. I hope it made sense.

Writer fatigue can be a big issue but I also just like stories to have a solid ending and not drag on, even if the episodes stay consistently good.

Not every show has to be about death, obviously. If it's combat heavy death should be a big element to it, you know, because people will be dying and if they're not then the combat is pretty pointless, unless they're getting some kind of understanding which should rarely happen anyway. I haven't watched enough Gurren Lagann to talk about it and to be honest I'm not interested in doing so.

I'd be curious to know what fantasy you've been reading since I haven't seen any of that cliched fantasy stuff in recent Fantasy books for awhile, save for the Eragon books, and those have been lambasted (and rightly so) for exactly the reasons you described.

I don't read much fantasy. I'm just really talking about the popular stuff like LOTR, Harry Potter.

I like how in Game of Thrones there are people who believe they're the chosen one, like Daenerys, and people support them believing they're chosen but they isn't really anything special about them other than the fact that they're rich and have power.

 

[WhiskerFrisker]

I feel like it is the object of hatred and derogatory comments,yes. It's viewed as "nerdy" or "lame". I also feel like it's growing in popularity, although I could be wrong. My sister watched the entirety of Soul Eater and Attack on Titan on Netflix and she is as mainstream as it gets. Anecdotal, but just an example of anime penetrating western culture.

 

[Haly]

I like how in Game of Thrones there are people who believe they're the chosen one, like Daenerys, and people support them believing they're chosen but they isn't really anything special about them other than the fact that they're rich and have power.

Ironic that you'd choose Daenerys, of all people. The second biggest Sue character after Jon Snuh, both of whom literally get entire armies handed to them on a silver platter to drive their sub-plots forward.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

The decline of anime that westerners find palatable directly correlates to the burst of the anime bubble in the U.S. around 2006-2007 so. First half of the decade you had a lot of shows either taking western audiences in consideration of shows outright funded by foreigners.

That's all there is to it really. Nothing will change. If anything it will get worse as the industry chases that otaku money more and more as it will be their only audience left.

When the industry was small, and breakaway successes were far and few, there was no real point in panderingto any group because there were none large enough to focus on. I'm sure the growing western popularity of anime also played a hand in growing its popularity in Japan, and with all growing industries, you find what works and milk it. Unfortunately this leads to where we are now where instead of taking risks they focus only on ideas that are proven to be consistently bring in money, because of the strong fanbases associated with them

It's akin to what we're seeing in Hollywood with superhero movies and in the videogame industry with FPS I think

 

[A_Gorilla]

Writer fatigue can be a big issue but I also just like stories to have a solid ending and not drag on, even if the episodes stay consistently good.

Not every show has to be about death, obviously. If it's combat heavy death should be a big element to it, you know, because people will be dying and if they're not then the combat is pretty pointless, unless they're getting some kind of understanding which should rarely happen anyway. I haven't watched enough Gurren Lagann to talk about it and to be honest I'm not interested in doing so.



I don't read much fantasy. I'm just really talking about the popular stuff like LOTR, Harry Potter.

I like how in Game of Thrones there are people who believe they're the chosen one, like Daenerys, and people support them believing they're chosen but they isn't really anything special about them other than the fact that they're rich and have power.

...I take it you haven't read the books, where there IS a prophecy about a chosen one, maybe even three of them depending on the interpretation...

 

[jman2050]

That's kinda the thing. Originally, yes they are meant to be generic archetypes that are eventually turned on their head, as is the case with deconstructions.

That's kind of the problem though. Eva was so popular and influential that the things it did to turn common archetypes and cliches on its head themselves turned into the archetypes and cliches that shows abuse today. Thus watching Eva after the fact becomes more difficult than it once was.

It's the same thing that happened to Seinfeld, Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon. And we're starting to see the same thing happen with stuff like Madoka.

 

[Molemitts]

...I take it you haven't read the books, where there IS a prophecy about a chosen one, maybe even three of them depending on the interpretation...

I haven't read the books, no. My brother has but he tends to agree with me about the chosen one shit. I don't know, anyway.

 

[Charcoal]

This fucking killed me

 

[SporeCrawler]

this is pretty stupid there are pretty bad animes and there are good ones. just saying all anime are bad and people watching them have bad taste is such a generalization

 

[Durask]

I'd be interested in knowing what fantasy books you're reading, actually. I still find that stuf somewhat prevalent, but I tend to shy away from high fantasy in general because of it

I'm not much of a fantasy reader any more so I don't follow the genre but from what I read China Melville is quite good and certainly not your typical fantasy.

 

[kewlmyc]

Since when is a podcast about 30+ year old men talking about videogames for a living mainstream?

Mainstream is indifferent to anime and always will be. You show them an anime movie and they'll probably like it, show them a good anime series and they'll probably like it to some degree. Show them weird moe incest crap and they'll think you're some sort of freak, which you probably are. They don't know enough about anime to think it's amazing or all anime is weird Japanese crap. The most they know is probably "Oh that Pokemon and Dragonball Z stuff. Yeah, I watched it as a kid."

 

[Hyrule Warrior]

I'm new to the discussion, so I don't really know what the last 20+ pages have discussed, but I still wanted to chime in.

I feel like I know what the OP is referring to, because I recently said a comment to a friend of very similar to how the OP is expressing. While using the term mainstream to refer to giantbomb would not be accurate, I understand where they're coming from. Listening to the bombcast, I don't consider it mainstream, but it does sound like your "every day american male" type of discussion sometimes, so while it's not exactly "mainstream" you get the feeling that it's not uncommon to hear the kind of stuff coming out of them from most people you'd meet at a bar, or just about anywhere sometimes.

I recently started watching One Piece, and I told my friend this, and he immediately just reacted in a frustrated manner and an attitude like "what are you doing..." as if watching an anime was a complete waste of time. This was coming from a guy who would think reading halo novels, or mass effect novels are worth his time, and who also thinks that Final Fantasy 8 is one of the best in the series (which I personally hated after playing 3 discs of it). I just have gotten the feeling in recent years that there is this more common consensus that anime is stupid, and Japanese things are equally stupid because Japan is full of nothing but moe, and perverts, etc...

 

[Jex]

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic. The poster came back and apologized specifically for what you are still criticizing for -- and admitted that he understands not all anime is directed for kids.

But, er, I'm not criticising him again. He's wrong to say anime is only aimed at kids, but that does make up a large amount of the content being produced.

 

[Crash Station]

I recently started watching One Piece, and I told my friend this, and he immediately just reacted in a frustrated manner and an attitude like "what are you doing..." as if watching an anime was a complete waste of time. This was coming from a guy who would think reading halo novels, or mass effect novels are worth his time, and who also thinks that Final Fantasy 8 is one of the best in the series (which I personally hated after playing 3 discs of it). I just have gotten the feeling in recent years that there is this more common consensus that anime is stupid, and Japanese things are equally stupid because Japan is full of nothing but moe, and perverts, etc...

You sure it was because of anime and not because he just doesn't like One Piece/thinks it's stupid? I mean, Final Fantasy 8 is among the most "anime" in the series.

 

[Hyrule Warrior]

You sure it was because of anime and not because he just doesn't like One Piece/thinks it's stupid? I mean, Final Fantasy 8 is among the most "anime" in the series.

Well from what he says, he doesn't know anything about one piece, except that it's a long series. He's basing his attitude on outside appearances, basically reducing is to "here's another enemy, we gotta get strong so we can defeat him" is what he said.

 

[Branduil]

So PsychoPass.

 

[Jex]

I recently started watching One Piece, and I told my friend this, and he immediately just reacted in a frustrated manner and an attitude like "what are you doing..." as if watching an anime was a complete waste of time. This was coming from a guy who would think reading halo novels, or mass effect novels are worth his time, and who also thinks that Final Fantasy 8 is one of the best in the series (which I personally hated after playing 3 discs of it). I just have gotten the feeling in recent years that there is this more common consensus that anime is stupid, and Japanese things are equally stupid because Japan is full of nothing but moe, and perverts, etc..,

That's not a 'mainstream' consensus though - that's a consensus reached by a select group of people on the internet. You can tell because no-one in real life knows or cares about anime, and they've certainly got no idea what 'moe' is. If they do then they've absorbed that information from the internet.

If the question was: "Are people online expressing a growing discontent with Japanese cultural exports?" then the answer might well be yes.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

No actual show, outside of OVAs, has smooth animation in every ep in every instance. We're talking about an industry where the average cost of a Simpson's ep could probably fund a full 6 eps

 

[Jex]

That reminds me, was Lensmen ever released on anything other than VHS? I haven't watched that for at least 20 years.

No. It's a problem causes by the holders of the rights of the original book series.

 

[Hyrule Warrior]

That's not a 'mainstream' consensus though - that's a consensus reached by a select group of people on the internet. You can tell because no-one in real life knows or cares about anime, and they've certainly got no idea what 'moe' is. If they do then they've absorbed that information from the internet.

If the question was: "Are people online expressing a growing discontent with Japanese cultural exports?" then the answer might well be yes.

Well even if the mainstream doesn't know what those terms are, I still think that it is not an uncommon perception that if someone sees anime, they instantly get turned off by it. I know my brother fits in with this catagory...he doesn't really follow the internet, and he's just your average guy who watches movies, and occasionally plays video games. If he sees an anime, even if it's one with a mature subject matter, he does not care about it, and think it's stupid. I'm not saying cartoons either, I'm specifically saying anime, because he likes the Disney stuff...he likes Frozen, and Tangled....but try getting him to watch Akira or Cowboy Bebop(two of my personal favorites)? Impossible.

Even among people on the internet though who do follow video games, or have a knowledge of Japanese culture (like the Giantbomb staff for instance)... I have particularly noticed the shift in attitude of people who fit that category to just be less willing to give anime, or anime styled entertainment a try, which I think is unfair considering we do have some great examples.

I admit, I'm actually not a huge fan of all things anime myself...I have tried watching plenty of shows that just did not spark my interests, but I have never dismissed them completely, because I know that when you find those diamonds in the rough, Japanese stories can be some of the best. Games like EarthBound, Persona 4, Catherine, certain Final Fantasy games, Metal Gear Solid as just some examples of some of the best stories I've experienced in gaming, and I find that western writers have rarely if ever gotten close to the level of story telling I've experienced in some Japanese titles.

 

[Branduil]

[*]Brain Powered (diverse cast, interesting character relationships, social commentary on states of war and man's relationship with nature

THE WIRE of anime:

http://a.pomf.se/adungf.webm

 

[Astral Dog]

To me the best thing about anime is the detailed art direction and more mature/violent themes, but i watch very little because most is garbage or pure pandering,even the ones i like i wish they were different,and of course the stereotypes of anime can be very annoying.

But i apreciate that they make more serious series for an older audience, American cartoons for teenagers are mostly comedy,i wish there were more cartoon with serious themes and b eautiful animation,things like the DC movies/ series or Avatar would be good examples, but there are so few of them and companies are very risk averse, making most animation projects just for kids, even animated films feel more safe to me, like recent Disney/Pixar movies.

I love animation just wish e médium was more diverse, and of course videogames are another form of it, developers can créate "Japanese" stories with great gameplay for a wider audience,if im not wrong that is what the guy on the podscast is complaining about

Edit:if i go back my letters are erased as im typing, how do i avod this?

 

[fertygo]

Moe anime its such a tired excuse, manga adaptation became the thing again since last two year.

 

[Apt101]

Anime is crazily popular compared to when I was in high school and college. Back in 1998-2002 it was like a secret club. We had to hide it if we wanted to get laid.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

 

[A_Gorilla]

Anime is crazily popular compared to when I was in high school and college. Back in 1998-2002 it was like a secret club. We had to hide it if we wanted to get laid.

That has less to do with the popularity of anime and more of the mainstreaming of nerd/geekdom in general. Its far more acceptable to say you like those things now than 10+ years ago,.

 

[Jex]

Well even if the mainstream doesn't know what those terms are, I still think that it is not an uncommon perception that if someone sees anime, they instantly get turned off by it. I know my brother fits in with this catagory...he doesn't really follow the internet, and he's just your average guy who watches movies, and occasionally plays video games. If he sees an anime, even if it's one with a mature subject matter, he does not care about it, and think it's stupid. I'm not saying cartoons either, I'm specifically saying anime, because he likes the Disney stuff...he likes Frozen, and Tangled....but try getting him to watch Akira or Cowboy Bebop(two of my personal favorites)? Impossible.

That doesn't really demonstrate anything though. People are conditioned through direct recommendations, critical approval, mainstream approval and marketing that Disney films and Pixar movies (for example) are 'acceptable'. That's the results of hundreds of millions of dollars of marketing (not to mention consistently turning out great content over several decades). Kids are raised on Disney.

 

[Shouta]

When the industry was small, and breakaway successes were far and few, there was no real point in panderingto any group because there were none large enough to focus on. I'm sure the growing western popularity of anime also played a hand in growing its popularity in Japan, and with all growing industries, you find what works and milk it. Unfortunately this leads to where we are now where instead of taking risks they focus only on ideas that are proven to be consistently bring in money, because of the strong fanbases associated with them

It's akin to what we're seeing in Hollywood with superhero movies and in the videogame industry with FPS I think

I don't personally think the explosion of the Western Market during the mid-2000s had much to do with the trends of the JP market. It was basically preordained after the economic bubble burst in the late 80s that it was going to happen at some point. The 90s for anime was folks riding the wave from it but the late 90s and early 2000s is where money finally started drying out (correlating with JPs being tighter with their purse strings) and they had to try new things. Digital animation and outsourcing became their big thing. When that became standard, the only way for them to make money was to target folks that actually spent cash which then caused them to pander to that element.

This is similar to idols in Japan where voting tickets or handshake chances are coupled with CDs and the hardcore fans start eating it up just to meet their obsession. I don't really recall this kind of thing being super commonplace with idols before the 2000s much myself but I'm not as versed in that area.

 

[Hyrule Warrior]

That doesn't really demonstrate anything though. People are conditioned through direct recommendations, critical approval, mainstream approval and marketing that Disney films and Pixar movies (for example) are 'acceptable'. That's the results of hundreds of millions of dollars of marketing (not to mention consistently turning out great content over several decades). Kids are raised on Disney.

Yeah, but I know how my brother was raised, because I was raised with him. Him and I were not really raised on Disney...in fact, if anyone liked Disney more as a kid, it was me. He used to tease me for liking Beauty and the Beast when we were kids. My brother and I were both raised in a time to like a lot of macho action movies...since the time I can remember, we loved the Die Hard movies, and just action movies of the 80s / early 90s in general...so he was never really conditioned at a young age to appreciate Disney.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

Okay, so, not to sound like a dick, but there are a number of factual inaccuracies in this post that I need to address.

- Anime was being made for many decades before Mushi Production (Osamu Tezuka, creator of Astro Boy, own personal studio) animated Astro Boy. Anime was 'made' for all kinds of reasons, mainly because people they could.

- Much of it was created for business reasons (the same as any field), often so that you could produce something for display at small exhibitions, travelling entertainemnt etc. It was, and is, a business.

- Like any industry, lots of people produced anime for lots of reasons. I don't think there was any push for anyone to create animation simply because Hollywood was producing live action films of a certain quality. After all, live action and animation are two very different industries and there wasn't anyone controlling the entire industry and steering it in a certain direction. There was no one to say "lets make anime because we can't make big budget movies!".

- There was animation created in the Disney method, specifically to attempt to emulate their style, however Toei (the studio behind such projects) found that to be incredibly expensive and time consuming.

- On the specific subject of Astro Boy you actually have it backwards. Astro Boy first existed as a live action series in the 50's because people at the time thought it would be impossible to make an animated TV series of the same material. The anime came later.

Alright, fair enough. I don't claim to be a historian buff on this x3. It feels good to get some facts there tho.

You're right that there's a certain myopia involved, but the bigger problem with the question is that it suggests if you wanted to tell such a story you'd even consider telling it in an anime. For the most part, you wouldn't. If you wanted to discuss those ideas you'd do it in a medium that made sense for the material, such as literature. If you were so inclined I suppose you could even make a manga, but that would require artistic talent. What you wouldn't think is "ah, anime is the best medium for this story" because it isn't.

I suppose looking at this from a simple cost vs. rewards scenario, a series exploring the subjects something like The Wire explores, at that level of complexity, doing so animated may not be the best way to go. Getting animation of a fluid enough level to convey those subtle emotional expressions, and the time it'd take to produce the art of comparable detail for that sort of thing, not to mention the costs for VA and the fact certain lines would lose impact going from live-action to animated, and that's certainly true.

But a story comparable to it in terms of plot and theme complexity, I think, could certainly be done. Themes aren't locked to mediums. Some would have to be explored differently depending on the medium, but as long as the strengths of that medium are taken full advantage of, the communication of those themes should be as effective.

THE WIRE of anime:

http://a.pomf.se/adungf.webm

Lol yo good point. Wish it got a bigger budget tho.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

Grew up on anime, cuz at home it was everything on tv. I missed out on the Sesame Street and the other stuff. Was a Doraemon child instead.

But now, I can't consume most anime titles.

The only titles I like from recent years: Ping Pong, Free!, Mushishi, and ARISE (the new ghost in the shell series)

I tried a few titles: Guilty Crown, Gurenn Laggan, KLK, Log Horizon, SAO ...and I just couldnt get into them. Terrible delivery and premise.



Stump posted some criteria earlier in this thread, I think, about what would appeal to him. Chalk me up to the same bar.

Thankfully, western tv series is burgeoning now? Or I feel it is. Because I have so much tv to watch and not enough time.


I wouldn't say I hate anime though. In fact, I miss anime. But it doesnt bring me the same feels that it used to.

 

[Shengar]

anything that engages with real world political or social issues

I'm not entirely sure, but oligarchy, histroical event, and Japan pacifist stance is a good recipe to make the majority of Japanese become apolitical. Its very hard to find a creative work from Japan -at least manga and anime- that deal with politics, let alone a real one. How rare politics rarely mentioned in a normal SoL of a normal family 4-koma manga strip should give a clue about that.

But that doesn't mean Japanese creative work is derived of politics though. There are works that have politics and struggle for power in them. Mainly these works are inspired by Romance of the Three Kingdoms or other historical works. It just most of the time, works with politics content are set in the past or in a fictional world. The closest thing we can get is Legend of the Galactic Heroes which have benevolent dictatorship vs corrupt democracy as one of its main theme of conflict, and it was an adaptation of novel series.

3.Jojo bizarre adventure is good , but it is over the top . And Hunter x hunter .

Over the top is the live and blood of JoJo. It IS over the top made manifest.

This thread is evidence that you basically have to ask people for suggestions on good anime to suit their tastes. It basically never shows up in the periphery vision of mainstream western audiences.

I think this is applied to other medium as well. If you're not familiar with a medium, and want something good out of it, your best chance is to ask around. It just sadly most of the time people don't know where and who is the right place to ask for recommendation, a proper recommendation.

It was, and sometimes it still is. A lot of the shows people have recommended for Stumpokapow were aired in that time slot, like Honey and Clover, Eden of the East, Wandering Son, and Bunny Drop. But they got sick of not making money, so now for every Ping Pong or Silver Spoon they air there also has to be a Guilty Crown or a Robotics;Notes that aims squarely at the traditional otaku market.

Yeah, it always come like this. It's almost impossible to have stream of good creative works without patronage, and that's hold true since the start of civilization.