Is Mainstream Hatred Of Anime Growing?
- Thread starter SOLDIER
- Start date
- Status
Pops Maellard
Member
So much wrong with this post.
TheSadRanger
Banned
I feel this way as well. As far as mainstream popularity in the U.S goes I think anime probably peaked in the early-mid 2000's when Adult Swim was doing their first run of episodes of Cowbody Bebop, Trigun, Inuyasha, and Blue Gender. This was back in the day when Adult Swim was pretty much basically anime, before they got into comedy stuff which would later be their bread & butter. The Sci-Fi channel also did a lot to gain exposure to the medium back when they were literally a completely different network, during their "Anime" nights they used to run they would just say "fuck it" and show an anime movie uncensored. Those networks really helped the medium a lot as the only other way of acquiring or viewing that film/series was paying an exorbitant amount for a VHS tape/DVD or watching a friends copy.
After the initial runs of AS anime shows ended though in the mid 00's, many of the replacements just didn't have the same popularity excluding FMA, FLCL and later Death Note. Paranoia Agent was interesting and different but too much of a slow burn for most people. Other shows bombed like Blood +, etc and they didn't really go back to anime for a long time.
Maybe I just wanted to mention Paranoia Agent though because it was pretty awesome and different
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Barkley's Justice
Member
you're in too deep bro
Amongst a lot of people I know at university. Anime feels pretty mainstream here, in fact most people I know don't even know I watch anime, but that's probably because most of my friends rather talk about politics, philosophy or literature before the topic of anime even comes up.
I recently got into Anime about 2 years ago. I love it as a medium. But keep in mind, I had years and years of classic Film/TV shows to watch. So I had a ton of high quality stuff. That said, I can totally understand why some would hate the negatives about the medium. There is a lot of things that you could find annoying about it. But I don't really get the overall hate for it, like...nothing good can exist in the medium. That seems like a pretty ignorant view to have.
I can get if one isn't a personal fan of it, fine. That's cool. But at least to me, I think any medium has negatives you can pick at. Every medium will have the downsides, and so I when I see people ranting about Anime having this and that, it really doesn't strike me as being all that different from the same criticisms I hear for film, music or gaming. There is always going to be garbage in any medium. Doesn't mean there isn't high quality stuff.
I can get if one isn't a personal fan of it, fine. That's cool. But at least to me, I think any medium has negatives you can pick at. Every medium will have the downsides, and so I when I see people ranting about Anime having this and that, it really doesn't strike me as being all that different from the same criticisms I hear for film, music or gaming. There is always going to be garbage in any medium. Doesn't mean there isn't high quality stuff.
To be fair, in my experience, finding the good stuff is pretty goddamn challenging. Im not an idiot though, I KNOW there must be some good anime around, its just that I think a lot of it won't and doesn't appeal to me.
plasmawave
Banned
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
I don't know about mainstream audiences but as a pretty old anime fan I know MY hatred of a lot of it is slowly growing. It just seems that a lot of series are targeting the lowest common denominator now. The last REALLY good series I watched (ignoring OVAs) was Fate/Zero, and that's a much older adaptation.
It just seems...so watered down. For instance if you wanted cyberpunk, you had GiTS: SAC and 2nd Gig. The closest thing we've got recently, was Psycho Pass. I generally enjoyed it, but everything from the stereotypical character designs (it worked for a story of Reborn's tone, but not this) to the somewhat contrived story, just seemed like a poor attempt at an adult targeted show.
I would argue that that isn't true. Although, I'd probably set the timeframe at the early 2000s. Just look at my example. There literally hasn't been any good cyberpunk that's compared to GiTS, and that aired around 10 years ago!
It just seems...so watered down. For instance if you wanted cyberpunk, you had GiTS: SAC and 2nd Gig. The closest thing we've got recently, was Psycho Pass. I generally enjoyed it, but everything from the stereotypical character designs (it worked for a story of Reborn's tone, but not this) to the somewhat contrived story, just seemed like a poor attempt at an adult targeted show.
I would argue that that isn't true. Although, I'd probably set the timeframe at the early 2000s. Just look at my example. There literally hasn't been any good cyberpunk that's compared to GiTS, and that aired around 10 years ago!
the quality is exactly the same, it's just that people only remember the good things, it's just as easy to find and watch good shows today as it was back in the 90s or whatever
Jex
Member
Well, that depends how you define "challenging". I don't think it's that hard to find good anime to watch. Sure, once you've seen something like 300 titles you might run into trouble but before then it's not very difficult.
I don't know if that actually means anything though. You're talking about a genre that only ever existed at a certain point in time and has since faded away in every medium. Why would anime be any different?
Stormhammer
Member
I remember back in the early 2000s when Starz was playing stuff like Patlabor, Appleseed and Ghost in the Shell. Feel like people were more accepting of that type of anime than what's become popular now. I don't watch much anime anymore, but just like 2 years ago I remember every time my friend wanted to show me the new hotness over in Japan, it was mostly some high school or moe type anime, and I don't think the mainstream really digs that.
I miss seeing those anime movies on Starz ;-;
I miss seeing those anime movies on Starz ;-;
Z..
Member
As someone who is quite passionate about anime, most anime fans are people I wouldn't want to know. The community is immature and ignorant about the very medium it worships. Pisses me off.
Mushishi is good.
It most surely is if you're looking for something more than just entertainment. Not that shows like FMA or One Piece suck or anything (they're awesome), but I wouldn't call them good.
Mushishi is good.
I hate 95% of animes in last few years (2009+) and this is coming from someone who watched anime since very young age 20 years ago.
I grow-up watching:
Rose of versailles
Cowboy beboo
Trigun
Rurouni kenshin ,
Slam dunk
One piece
Hunterxhunter (1st run)
Full metal alchemist (1st run)
Monster
Ghibils movies
Gurren Lagnn
Mushishi
Gundam wing
Now compare the list above with recent years animes and you will understand the growth hatred of anime!
I grow-up watching:
Rose of versailles
Cowboy beboo
Trigun
Rurouni kenshin ,
Slam dunk
One piece
Hunterxhunter (1st run)
Full metal alchemist (1st run)
Monster
Ghibils movies
Gurren Lagnn
Mushishi
Gundam wing
Now compare the list above with recent years animes and you will understand the growth hatred of anime!
The thing is those studios are more concerned with what sells in Japan, not the West. The hardcore fans of moe stuff are willing to pay out the nose for DVDs and BluRays, seriously the prices are ludicrous. Unless situations like the Space Dandy simulcast on Adult Swim become the norm the western audience will be nothing more than an afterthought.
AnathemicOne
Banned
I raise you:
Madoka Magika
Steins;Gate
Fate/Zero
Code Geass
Higurashi no Naku Koro ni (Kai)
Attack on Titan
Tokyo in Terror
Aldnoah Zero
You're welcome.
Like many have stated, the quality hasn't changed; there's just more exposure to crap due to Internet.
Jex
Member
Huh? Most things people watch are for entertainment. I don't understand what criteria you're drawing up that most works fail because you haven't explained what it even is.
How is it reasonable to to put 90 years on anime on side of your example (1917-2008) and 5 years of show (2009+) on the other? What?
Z..
Member
Which is why most people love average stuff. Because it's designed to be entertaining and has no artistic ambition whatsoever.
For example, the consensus within the anime community that GitS: SAC is better than GitS (1995) is sickening and frankly all I need to want as much distance from it as possible.
GitS has an almost Tarkovsky-ian level of finnesse in it's execution (both visually AND thematically) that essentially makes it a timeless masterpiece. SAC is a cyberpunk soap opera.
plasmawave
Banned
Bokurano is pretty good too. Kinda depressing tho.
Not to mention, there has been so many incredible Anime film to come out in the last 10 years. While there is no doubt many classics that came out 20 years ago, there is also a lot of improvement on the film side of things (in terms of animation and storytelling).
GreenTornadoX
Member
Yeah I'm not the biggest fan of younger and younger looking characters (unless it's something like Doraemon or something not overtly sexualized). I like my anime like Hokuto No Ken.. Kenshiro brings me manly tears every time I rewatch the series.
Finaika
Member
Like who?
Some fan of anything is embarrassing. It's not like this is specific to anime. With any medium/culture/fandom..there is always going to be people that are extreme or embarrassing.
Wiktor
Member
What's more, when anime exploded in popularity in the West we suddenly got to experience cream of the crop from over decade of the medium. Now we're watching season by season
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
Hyperbole much? There's a lot of merit to the opinion of SAC being better. It essentially takes the movie's "plot" (since it's not exactly the same, but touches on the same general ideas) and gives it 26 episodes to expand upon. While I personally think the movie is AMAZING, I found that it made significantly more sense after watching SAC, if only because I had more time to learn about the world and its themes.
It's basically what the Akira manga is to the movie, but that doesn't necessarily take away from the movie's merits
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I look at it this way. It's easy to say American TV is great if all you're watching is True Dick, Fargo, Orange is the New Black, and whatever other critically acclaimed show you can think of.
But you're not including Storage Wars and Honey Boo Boo and Housewives of Timbucktoo and all the other crap that you see fill the other 95% of American channels. There's a lot more noise than there is signal.
Wiktor
Member
I see you picking up cream of the crop from 30 years and complaining last 5 didn't have as many stand out series.
GreenTornadoX
Member
I mean, you can pretty much say that for any medium, during any decade. It's why it's always funny when you hear people say "Man the 80's had the best music ever, and now everything is garbage"..as if the 80's didn't have a ton of terrible music. You hear this sentiment all the time. It's always another decade, another time where something was supposedly objectively better (and it's usually tied to Nostalgia bias).
That said, I have nothing against the idea that...you think some of the best work came out of an era. But I just don't agree with this idea that, one era was like PERFECTION. Every medium and every decade, has a ton of crap, and great stuff and everything in between.
Jex
Member
Okay, so to be clear, what you're saying is that it's hard to fine anime that have artistic ambition?
Lets consider a few things here:
- I was originally responding to a comment by Cipherr who said it was hard to find good anime. Cipherr didn't define what good meant, exactly, but I assume it isn't limited to 'artistically ambitious' works. Therefore I responded by saying that you can find several hundred 'good' works if we define 'good' in terms of what people generally mean on the internet. Perhaps these titles are not challenging or radical but they all well made works feature good stories with good characters.
- Therefore your initial rebuttal doesn't quite fit into this line of thinking because you're talking about a completely different thing to what we were talking about above.
- Now, if I was to talk about your subject e.g. "anime with artistic ambition" I would have to concede that it's fairly difficult to find works that fit into that limited definition. They certainly exist but there aren't that many, which isn't really that different to say, television shows.
- This is because the anime industry is, just like every other industry, a business that's focused on making money and selling product. No-one is going to give you the money, or resources, or time, to make anything risky or experimental or different. Most of the time you'll just be making adaptations of other works e.g. manga.
- This is fundamentally different to say, film, where just about anyone could make a movie. Anime production, by it's very nature, requires the work of dozens and dozens of people and multiple organisations of all whom have to be paid. That's why there's little in the way of 'independent animation'.
- Of course, from time to time, artistically ambitious works well get made. Just last year, for example, the extremely ambitious and very powerful Flowers of Evil series aired. So as I've said above it's not that different from US TV. You get a few radical shows here and there while the rest of is largely disposable entertainment.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
The best shows are not aired and don't become popular, so all the "mainstream" sees is crappy shonen/moe anime.
There's great anime and something to watch for pretty much everyone, anyone hating on a whole medium is just being ignorant.
There's great anime and something to watch for pretty much everyone, anyone hating on a whole medium is just being ignorant.
May not have the mainstream recognition of Attack on Titan, but it sure as heck set the new standard for storytelling, visuals and characterization in the Anime medium.
If you're staring at that image with utter confusion, I can assure you I am being completely serious, and that you should watch it.
PhineBuyM3
Member
They can't be anymore embarrassing than zealous sports fans, bro gamers, or film snobs.
I actually liked most of what you listed (specially Steins; Gate) except the last two
I just listed some of the animes I like the most (forgot to add Hellsing, Death note ) I never said there's no good anime available what I wanted to say is the quantity of quality is less then what it was in 90's and early 2000's.
This is a bad opinion.
Crash Station
Member
There are absolutely anime fans on the Giant Bomb staff.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Ya'll peeps need non-action stuff like silver spoon.
People always bemoan the lack of good recent anime and all they list as their favourites are action anime.
People always bemoan the lack of good recent anime and all they list as their favourites are action anime.
Z..
Member
SAC is cool, yeah, but if you think the movie made more sense after watching it, you still didn't get the movie. It has nothing to do with either SAC or the manga. It's something else entirely.
This is exactly what I mean. This audience only cares for plot exposition and is completely oblivious to subtext and narrative, not to mention the themes that the movie explores. They only want cool characters doing objectively quantifiable stuff they can remembet. Thry don't want to be have their perception challenged.
This is exactly why I dislike the anime comunity. You are a perfect encapsulation of almost everyone in it and you're so blind to the narrative styles developed in film history by people like Bergman or Bresson that you can't even appreciate what Oshii created in GitS.
You crave the linear and entertaining narrative Hollywood has accustomed you to and you can't seem to let go of that format and it's characteristics when faced with something different.
That you can look at GitS and seriously think there was barely any story says it all. You're actually actively looking for plot in a film whose narrative thrives on subtext and symbolism.
Which essentially, is my entire point. You need a product to be entertaining to enjoy it. You don't want to be challenged. You want ease of use.
Good post. I can pretty much agree with all of what you're saying. And yes, Aku No Hana is amazing.
I don't think "mainstream hatred" of anime is growing. In fact, I think it's important to take into account of what "mainstream" means. In general, the actual mainstream out there, the majority of people, don't generally think about anime much. There might be a few titles lots of people are aware of, but otherwise it's not really a big thing. So there really isn't a hatred for something they don't spend much time even thinking about.
What does seem to be happening is that there's been a growing disdain for Japanese entertainment output for those who pay a lot of attention to it or are exposed to people who talk a lot about it. This is not mainstream, this in itself is a sort of niche. Yes, Giant Bomb, forums like NeoGAF, blogs, twitter if you follow a lot of people who are into gaming and entertainment, etc. But it's only there if you're looking in these places, since people actually talk about stuff like that. If you hang out with people who are not into this sort of stuff much, odds of actually ever talking about anime is highly unlikely, much less having a strong feeling like hatred or love for it.
Not as bad as the show.
What does seem to be happening is that there's been a growing disdain for Japanese entertainment output for those who pay a lot of attention to it or are exposed to people who talk a lot about it. This is not mainstream, this in itself is a sort of niche. Yes, Giant Bomb, forums like NeoGAF, blogs, twitter if you follow a lot of people who are into gaming and entertainment, etc. But it's only there if you're looking in these places, since people actually talk about stuff like that. If you hang out with people who are not into this sort of stuff much, odds of actually ever talking about anime is highly unlikely, much less having a strong feeling like hatred or love for it.
Not as bad as the show.
TBF a lot of Anime is pretty awful so it is easy for some to point to a gaggle of shows and go "see this is shiiiiiiiit". Not to mention the more than occasional anime as fuck trappings that even the good shows have that just do not translate/transfer to someone who isn't used it (like most anime humor is probably poison to a non regular anime watcher...hell its occasionally poison to me).
There is also the constant "it was better when I was younger" sentiment a lot of people tend to get as they grow older (this is present in every medium).
But in general, it is just super hard to defend some things. So generally whenever a thread devolves into "oh look at these dweebs with an anime avatar", there is some unfortunate truth to their claims at time. There are probably quite a few creeps who watch anime alot and have an anime avatar for example. There is no direct, constant corelation but I am sure there is heavy overlap. It just becomes easy for them to group everyone together sadly.
I will say this as a person who has found less anime that has kept my attention in recent years, it isn't getting worse it is just evolving to suit others tastes. I will never get shows like K-On and other slice of life stuff but that sells and is what the majority likes. Most people take this as things turning to shit and thus the growing sentiment that anime sucks.
Its why you generally have people list older anime as when things were better...when I am sure the generations before that were saying the same damn thing.
There is also the constant "it was better when I was younger" sentiment a lot of people tend to get as they grow older (this is present in every medium).
But in general, it is just super hard to defend some things. So generally whenever a thread devolves into "oh look at these dweebs with an anime avatar", there is some unfortunate truth to their claims at time. There are probably quite a few creeps who watch anime alot and have an anime avatar for example. There is no direct, constant corelation but I am sure there is heavy overlap. It just becomes easy for them to group everyone together sadly.
I will say this as a person who has found less anime that has kept my attention in recent years, it isn't getting worse it is just evolving to suit others tastes. I will never get shows like K-On and other slice of life stuff but that sells and is what the majority likes. Most people take this as things turning to shit and thus the growing sentiment that anime sucks.
Its why you generally have people list older anime as when things were better...when I am sure the generations before that were saying the same damn thing.
plasmawave
Banned
How can anyone say SAC is better than GITS 1995?
- Status