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[Dead Man]

Source: BBC

Draft legislation in Israel would make it a crime in the country to use the word "Nazi" or symbols of the Holocaust for purposes other than teaching.

There will be a preliminary hearing in parliament on Wednesday for the bill, which would impose penalties of up to six months in jail and a $25,000 fine.

The move comes a week after ultra-Orthodox Jews dressed as concentration camp uniforms to protest against alleged incitement against them.

The incident sparked outrage in Israel.

The national Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial denounced the use of Nazi imagery as "disgraceful", and several survivors' groups condemned it.

On 31 December, thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews gathered in Jerusalem's Mea She'arim district to protest against what they said was a nationwide campaign by the secular media against their community.

They wore yellow Stars of David on their clothes bearing the word "Jude" (German for "Jew"), and dressed their children in striped black-and-white uniforms associated with concentration camps. Israeli police were also called "Nazis".

Ultra-Orthodox Jews, who make up 10% of Israel's population, have been criticised in recent weeks for attempting to impose their strict beliefs on others as their population grows and spreads to new areas.

Extremist sects have sought to ban the mixing of sexes on buses, pavements and other public spaces. Members of one sect jeered and spat at girls walking to school, saying they were dressed immodestly.

Such efforts have been condemned by the Israeli government and triggered widespread demonstrations against the ultra-Orthodox community. At one recent protest, people held signs reading: "Stop Israel becoming Iran."

On Monday, the Ministerial Committee for Legislation voted to support the bill which would, according to Israeli media, prohibit the use of all forms of the word "Nazi" or similar-sounding words; epithets associated with Nazism, the Third Reich or any of its leaders; the wearing of striped clothing resembling that worn by prisoners in concentration camps; and yellow stars like the ones Jews were forced to wear during the Holocaust.

It would also ban all photographs, drawings, sculptures depicting a swastika or anything else that makes a definitive reference to Nazism.

"Unfortunately we have been witness in recent years to the cynical exploitation of Nazi symbols and phraseology, which is offensive to Holocaust survivors, their families, and many others among the Jewish people," said the bill's sponsor, Uri Ariel of the National Union party.

"The law constitutes an appropriate warning, and will anchor in law a fitting punishment for the despicable use," he added.

However, the draft legislation has been criticised by civil rights groups.

"Precisely because of the importance and centrality of the Holocaust, the attempt to dictate when and in what context it can be referenced is very problematic," the Association for Civil Rights in Israel (Acri) said in a statement.

"This bill seeks in effect to control the public debate, its content and tone, with force, using criminal prohibitions and the threat of prison."

"Freedom of expression is the right to say harsh, critical and even hurtful things. It is the right to give crude and extreme expression to opinions, emotions and thoughts and it also includes the right to make rhetorical use of difficult and provocative images," the Acri statement added.

While I applaud their goal, restricting speech is not the way to achieve it.

 

[kehs]

Sounds like something Hitler would do.

 

[tapedeck]

Isnt this exact thing illegal in Germany?

 

[Wazzim]

Isnt this exact thing illegal in Germany?

I can say 'Nazi' in Germany without it being illegal.

 

[Shorty]

when will israel have its first book burning? can't wait

 

[Dead Man]

Isnt this exact thing illegal in Germany?

I think it is only Nazi references that are banned rather than holocaust references, but more thoroughly. I could be wrong though, DeutschGAF will need to weigh in on that one.

 

[DarthWoo]

I'm a bit conflicted. I'm typically for freedom of speech, even if it is as inflammatory as dressing as a Nazi in Israel, but it's not as if the rest of the non-fundie portion of Israel doesn't have a legitimate and growing grievance against this group. If all the information about their exemption from work and IDF service, as well as taxpayer funded stipends is true, as well as their growing numbers based on religious school demographics, they'll be the collapse of the country.

 

[HammerOfThor]

seems like a logical step forward =/

 

[Harry Dresden]

Media has coined this bill "Godwin's Law"

 

[Dead Man]

Media has coined this bill "Godwin's Law"

:lol

 

[Ether_Snake]

I'm a bit conflicted. I'm typically for freedom of speech, even if it is as inflammatory as dressing as a Nazi in Israel, but it's not as if the rest of the non-fundie portion of Israel doesn't have a legitimate and growing grievance against this group. If all the information about their exemption from work and IDF service, as well as taxpayer funded stipends is true, as well as their growing numbers based on religious school demographics, they'll be the collapse of the country.

So what's the solution? They are growing in numbers.

 

[Orayn]

Media has coined this bill "Godwin's Law"

It's more like "The Anti-Godwin Act of 2012."

 

[Borgnine]

About ninety years too late guys.

 

[SmokyDave]

Massively insecure.

 

[Prez]

Isnt this exact thing illegal in Germany?

Holocaust denial is illegal, I don't think nazi references are.

About ninety years too late guys.

Huh, why 90?

 

[Dali]

I thought this was going to be in relation to Israel/Palestine comparisons. While I guess the bill would make those comparisons illegal too, I came into this thread thinking it was that comparison that sparked the bill's creation.

 

[Sickboy007]

So they just prohibited 50% of their foreign policy arguments? Seems counterproductive.

 

[mernst23]

Holocaust denial is illegal, I don't think nazi references are.



Huh, why 90?

Talking about anything WW2 related is pretty taboo in Germany.

 

[BertramCooper]

I hate anti-Nazi/Holocaust denial laws, and so should anyone who values free speech.

 

[Phantast2k]

Talking about anything WW2 related is pretty taboo in Germany.

That is incorrect.

 

[Mistouze]

So they put a ban on Godwin's point.

 

[SneakyStephan]

I thought this was going to be in relation to Israel/Palestine comparisons. While I guess the bill would make those comparisons illegal too, I came into this thread thinking it was that comparison that sparked the bill's creation.

It almost can't not be...

The way they treat those people is causing people to compare them to nazi germany all the time.
At least they can only censor within their own borders.

 

[Prez]

Talking about anything WW2 related is pretty taboo in Germany.

Do you even know anything about Germany?

 

[Korey]

Source: BBC



While I applaud their goal, restricting speech is not the way to achieve it.

This is like ten thousand spoons on your wedding day

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Thought this would be about people comparing some of Israel's actions or comments to Nazism

 

[Borgnine]

Huh, why 90?

The Nazi party was founded in 1920. Imagine all the trouble that could have been avoided if they passed this law then. Get it? It's a joke.

 

[Sickboy007]

I hate anti-Nazi/Holocaust denial laws, and so should anyone who values free speech.

Honestly that's not what this law is, those type of laws only punish apologists or denialists, this prohibits any debate even tangentially related. It's very different.

 

[Takeda Kenshi]

Will the persecution of Wolfenstein 3D never cease?

 

[The_Hitcher89]

I thought it was illegal to glorify the Nazis in Germany, rather than it being illegal to make any non-teaching reference to it?

 

[Rapstah]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the German law basically:

• Holocaust denial illegal
• Nazi symbolism only allowed for educational purposes

That's quite the step from making the WORD "nazi" illegal and outlawing mentions of the holocaust. In fact this would outlaw everything that is proof for the holocaust! I'm assuming there's a "outside of educational purposes" clause somewhere that we're not getting to see?

 

[Stinkles]

Sounds like something Hitler would do.

lol

 

[BertramCooper]

Honestly that's not what this law is, those type of laws only punish apologists or denialists, this prohibits any debate even tangentially related. It's very different.

You are correct; this is clearly more extreme than Germany's laws. That said, the German laws are still terrible infringements upon free speech.

 

[Sickboy007]

I thought it was illegal to glorify the Nazis in Germany, rather than it being illegal to make any non-teaching reference to it?

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the German law basically:

• Holocaust denial illegal
• Nazi symbolism only allowed for educational purposes

That's quite the step from making the WORD "nazi" illegal and outlawing mentions of the holocaust. In fact this would outlaw everything that is proof for the holocaust! I'm assuming there's a "outside of educational purposes" clause somewhere that we're not getting to see?

There is such a clause

Draft legislation in Israel would make it a crime in the country to use the word "Nazi" or symbols of the Holocaust for purposes other than teaching.

but it's still a very different law from european laws (especially german) about this sort of stuff, in practice and conceptually. No one is prohibited to make a comparison between nazis and current (or past) events, and talking about it is certainly not restricted to educational purposes.

Even the symbols and this sort of stuff are only prohibited if used in a positive context.

German-GAF please correct me if i'm wrong, but i think that for example the case with videogames is that they're not considered "worthy" of freedom of speech. Basically they're not covered by the german version of the first amendment, unlike movies, books, publications etc. Which is why they're also routinely banned for violence, not just for nazi symbolism.

 

[rdrr gnr]

So they just prohibited 50% of their foreign policy arguments? Seems counterproductive.

 

[Sickboy007]

Tinyeye reverse search to the rescue! I hadn't read anything from him before, but i mostly agree with what he says.

 

[stilgar]

That's all sorts of meta-ironic.

 

[FStop7]

The only thing less successful than the prohibition of vices is the prohibition of ideologies. All it does is energize those who preach the "forbidden" ideals and their followers. It makes them more desirable and goes toward legitimizing them because it creates a perception that the establishment has an irrational fear of these beliefs and seeks to suppress them.

In short, bad idea.

 

[Maleficence]

Never heard of this guy, but just watched the video of him responding to the teary Jewish girl. Love it, not an easy thing to do either, but he stands for what he believes in. Got to respect that.

 

[Kentpaul]

lol i was sitting in a bus shelter today with nazi graffiti!

Little fuckers doing that shit.

 

[Binabik15]

There is such a clause



but it's still a very different law from european laws (especially german) about this sort of stuff, in practice and conceptually. No one is prohibited to make a comparison between nazis and current (or past) events, and talking about it is certainly not restricted to educational purposes.

Even the symbols and this sort of stuff are only prohibited if used in a positive context.

German-GAF please correct me if i'm wrong, but i think that for example the case with videogames is that they're not considered "worthy" of freedom of speech. Basically they're not covered by the german version of the first amendment, unlike movies, books, publications etc. Which is why they're also routinely banned for violence, not just for nazi symbolism.

Games aren't consider art (sorry, guys) and the Bundesprüfstelle für Jugendgefährdende Schriften, an agency tasked to check media for damaging influences on children has a hard-on for games in general and is quick to put them on its index. Indexed media cannot be publically displayed, advertised or sold to people under 18 and age checks are pretty strictly enforced. This is different from a 18+ rating, which can be displayed openly. As a result it's not easy to sell games/movies/magazines that are indexed, people would have to come in and ask for them. No ads. Yeah, financial suicide in most cases and many stores won't stock most or all indexed stuff.

So they basically tell publishers "If you have this nazi crap in your games, we will index it, you monsters."

Same goes for violence, here movies are also cracked down on. That's the reason for most of the self-censorship here.

Holocaust denial is iligal, no matter the context*.

Glorification of the nazi regime (yes, they were an oppressuve dicatorship and not ALL Germans were involved, so I empasise this for their sake), their war crimes, crimes against humabity and their lore is ilegal*.

The use or display of nazi insignia and gestures is ilegal (as well as things as the skull symbol used by the Totenkopf SS or the Germanic S rune, also because of the SS, at least having them next to each other) except for artistic, educational or scientific purposes, since our constitution states that "verfassungsfeindliche Symbole", meaning symbols that attack our constitution or the values it represents (here: dignity/equalizy of all humans) are banned.

For educational purposes you can fly swatikas and do the Hitler salute as much as you want, eg movies showing how bad WW2 and the nazis were can have a swastika flag plastered on every surface available, while the people dancing in swastika formation from The Producers would be more troublesome and some skinheads saluting in the streets is enough to get them busted.

*Remember: The German constitution gives the freedom of expression, NOT free speech. Art, Science and Education are protected on top of that, it's not like we're a Banana Repulic with no freedom just because we're not protecting everyone's right to yell "All niggers like to steal" or "Jews in the oven" or "All German women are ugly, hairy wenches".

 

[RustyNails]

So they just prohibited 50% of their foreign policy arguments? Seems counterproductive.

BAM

 

[RustyNails]

Tinyeye reverse search to the rescue! I hadn't read anything from him before, but i mostly agree with what he says.

You have no excuse. Watch this NOW (free on AlJazeera)

Part 1 and 2

 

[Sickboy007]

Thanks for clearing things up Binabik! i'm not aware of banned modern movies in germany, apart from some 80s nasties and this sort of stuff. But i don't think something like the producers could cause more than stir some controversy, games really are the beaten stepchild in this case.

You have no excuse. Watch this NOW (free on AlJazeera)

Part 1 and 2

Will watch!

 

[Something Wicked]

Banning Nazi memes too? Is Israel becoming the next GAF?...

 

[DarthWoo]

So what's the solution? They are growing in numbers.

Sooner or later they'll have to stop backing down and take away some of the ridiculous exemptions. A whole country of people who do nothing but study religion is asking for trouble.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Stimulation of racial hate, "incitement of the people" (Volksverhetzung), glorification or justification of the NS-regime, using NS-symbols in a non-educational way and denying the Holocaust is prohibited in Germany.

Volksverhetzung and denying the Holocaust can get you up to 5 years in jail. Using NS-symbols up to 3 years in jail.
Those are the maximum sentences, in simple cases it's mostly a fine.

 

[Joel Was Right]

You can categorise the OT in the following subjects that are almost certain to go beyond several pages.

• Religion
• A story involving a woman in a Muslim country
• Race
• Israel
• Republicans
• Woman who has sex with underage male
• Apple
• Girl-age

I may have missed some but generally we have to usually have one of the above at least once a month

 

[Shorty]

Stimulation of racial hate, "incitement of the people" (Volksverhetzung), glorification or justification of the NS-regime, using NS-symbols in a non-educational way and denying the Holocaust is prohibited in Germany.

Volksverhetzung and denying the Holocaust can get you up to 5 years in jail. Using NS-symbols up to 3 years in jail.

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[Patrick Bateman]

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Go outside and wear that on a t-shirt.

 

[Shorty]

Go outside and wear that on a t-shirt.

no