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Israeli soldiers reveal 'shoot first' policy in Gaza.

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RiZ III

Member
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jpNLKONNuPqClwvXJhUecaFTfY4A

JERUSALEM (AFP) — Israeli soldiers in the Gaza war were told to shoot first and worry about the consequences later and used Palestinian civilians as human shields, an activist group said in a report on Wednesday.

The testimony of some 30 soldiers -- all unnamed -- shows that the massive destruction wreaked on the Palestinian territory was "a direct result of IDF (Israel Defence Forces) policy," said the Breaking the Silence group, made up of veteran troops.


Soldiers regularly used civilians as human shields during the December and January conflict, one said: "To every house we close in on, we send the neighbour in, the 'Johnnie'."

Another said his commander told him of instances when "the force would enter while placing rifle barrels on a civilian's shoulder, advancing into a house and using him as a human shield."

Instructions received before battle led to trigger-happy soldiers, civilian deaths and massive destruction in the densely populated and impoverished enclave, soldiers said.

"No one said 'kill innocents,'" said one. "But the instruction was that for the army, anyone there is suspect and should be taken down."

"I understood... that it's better to shoot first and ask questions later," said another.

"The goal was to carry out an operation with the least possible casualties for the army, without it even asking itself what the price would be for the other side," said a third.

"The difficult thing about the atmosphere was the negligible value placed on human life. People didn't seem to be upset about taking human lives," said one soldier.

Others spoke of massive destruction.

"Houses were demolished everywhere... We didn't see a single house that was not hit... It looked awful, like in those World War II films where nothing remained. A totally destroyed city."

Many houses were demolished as part of a "day after" policy, which meant "taking down a house... (whose) single sin is the fact that it is situated on top of a hill in the Gaza Strip," said another.

One soldier related an incident in which his commander told troops not to fire warning shots at a man approaching their position at night until he was some dozen metres (yards) away.

"Suddenly a burst of fire is heard from upstairs.. The old man gave such a scream as I'll never forget as long as I live... The commander comes downstairs, glowing, 'here's an opener for tonight'."

When they checked on the man the next morning, they saw "the guy was clean, nothing on him. Except for a torch in his hand, a white shirt and a long beard. A 50-60-year-old man lying on the road."


While one commander would not let his soldiers break anything in a house and another unit cleaned up after themselves, others engaged in vandalism.

"In one house we entered, I saw guys had defecated in drawers... I remember a filthy drawing in a children's nursery... I really felt ashamed.. and so do guys who were with me."

The army said that "a considerable amount of the testimony in this report is... based on hearsay and word of mouth" and "anonymous and lacks any identifying details that would allow the IDF to investigate, confirm or refute it.

"The IDF is committed to investigating any claim, supported by facts, that is brought to its attention."

Defence Minister Ehud Barak in a statement urged that all complaints be sent to him and repeated that the Israeli army "is one of the most moral in the world" -- a phrase often used by the top brass in response to criticism.

More than 1,400 Palestinians and 13 Israelis were killed during the 22 operation.

Of course the Army is going to deny this, but these IDF soldiers have no reason to make shit like this up. Still using human shields. Disgusting.
 

Ganhyun

Member
and here we go, another Isreal vs Palestine thread.

Paging Fortified_Concept and Fio to the thread.


Sigh, this hatred on both sides needs to be put aside and the issue worked out.

Edit: On Topic


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/15/breaking-the-silence-form_n_232991.html

That activist group is made up of IDF reservists.

an organization of Israeli army reservists

Also, the group did not look to see what actions Palestinian groups may have taken.

The report did not look at the actions of Palestinian militants during the fighting.
 

Dead Man

Member
Once again, not surprised. Disappointed, but not surprised. Israelis and the Palestinians are as bad as each other, neither leadership wants compromise or peace. Meanwhile the civilians on both side get fucked.
 

nyong

Banned
RiskyChris said:
Israel does not commit war crimes.

Neither does the United States or virtually any other country in the history of countries involved in any sort of warfare.
 

Binabik15

Member
It´s good that this comes out, but isn´t this basically just what everybody knew from the red cross, journalists, residents and even Isreali news sources during the offensive.

I bet it´s all a vast conspiracy to frame Israel as the "bad guy" for going in there and playing bulldozer.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
nyong said:
I have my doubts that this true. It's certainly convenient that the 30 IDF troops are unnamed.
Right, because these people whos income and livelihood rely on the military have absolutely nothing to fear from going public with their names.

Its like dismissing deepthroat because he wouldnt go public. Not to mention these allegations correlate perfectly to several independent human rights investigations.
 

nyong

Banned
Jonm1010 said:
Its like dismissing deepthroat because he wouldnt go public. Not to mention these allegations correlate perfectly to several independent human rights investigations.

There is so much misinformation and propaganda about what goes on in Gaza that I don't give weight to virtually any story I read in the news anymore. As far as I'm concerned, if it's not on video it did not happen.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
Israel soldiers speak out on Gaza


A group of soldiers who took part in Israel's assault in Gaza say widespread abuses were committed against civilians under "permissive" rules of engagement.

The troops said they had been urged to fire on any building or person that seemed suspicious and said Palestinians were sometimes used as human shields.

Breaking the Silence, a campaign group made up of Israeli soldiers, gathered anonymous accounts from 26 soldiers.

Israel denies breaking the laws of war and dismissed the report as hearsay.

The report says testimonies show "the massive and unprecedented blow to the infrastructure and civilians" was a result of Israeli military policy, articulated by the rules of engagement, and encouraged by a belief "the reality of war requires them to shoot and not to ask questions".

One soldier is quoted saying: "The soldiers were made to understand that their lives were the most important, and that there was no way our soldiers would get killed for the sake of leaving civilians the benefit of the doubt."


From Paul Wood, BBC Middle East correspondent:
Until now, Israel always had a ready answer to allegations of war crimes in Gaza. Claims were, they said, Palestinian propaganda. Now the accusations of abuse are being made by Israeli soldiers.

The common thread in the testimonies is that orders were given to prevent Israeli casualties whatever the cost in Palestinian lives.

The Israeli military says past allegations of wrong-doing in Gaza were the result of soldiers recycling rumours.

But Breaking the Silence has a long - and to many, credible - record in getting soldiers to talk about experiences which might not reflect well on the army.

Another says: "People were not instructed to shoot at everyone they see, but they were told that from a certain distance when they approach a house, no matter who it is - even an old woman - take them down."

Many of the testimonies are in line with claims made by human rights organisations that Israeli military action in Gaza was indiscriminate and disproportionate.

Amnesty International has accused both Israel and Hamas, the Palestinian militant group in charge in Gaza, of committing war crimes during the 22-day conflict which ended on 18 January.

Israeli officials insist troops went to great lengths to protect civilians, that Hamas endangered non-combatants by firing from civilian areas and that homes and buildings were destroyed only when there was a specific military need to do so.

'Ill discipline'

Other allegations in the testimonies of the 14 conscripts and 12 reserve soldiers include:

• Civilians were used as human shields, entering buildings ahead of soldiers


“ You can't identify too much at night and anything that moves you engage in order not to take risks. It was not defined this way officially, but it was obvious ”
Anonymous Israeli soldier

• Large swathes of homes and buildings were demolished as a precaution or to secure clear lines of fire for the future.

• Some of the troops had a generally aggressive, ill-disciplined attitude

• There was incidents of vandalism of property of Palestinians

• Soldiers fired at water tanks because they were bored, at a time of severe water shortages for Gazans

• White phosphorus was used in civilian areas in a way some soldiers saw as gratuitous and reckless

• Many of the soldiers said there had been very little direct engagement with Palestinian militants.


The report says Israeli troops and the people who justify their actions are "slid[ing] together down the moral slippery slope".

"This is an urgent call to Israeli society and its leaders to sober up and investigate anew the results of our actions," Breaking the Silence says.

Israel said the purpose of Operation Cast Lead had been to end rocket fire from Gaza aimed at its southern towns.

Palestinian rights groups say about 1,400 Palestinians died during the operation. Thirteen Israelis died in the conflict, including 10 soldiers serving in Gaza.

According to the UN, the campaign damaged or destroyed more than 50,000 homes, 800 industrial properties, 200 schools, 39 mosques and two churches.
Investigations

Reacting to the report, Israeli military spokeswoman Lt Col Avital Leibovich said:


"The IDF [Israel Defence Forces] regrets the fact that another human rights organisation has come out with a report based on anonymous and general testimony - without investigating their credibility."

She dismissed the document as "hearsay and word of mouth".

"The IDF expects every soldier to turn to the appropriate authorities with any allegation," Lt Col Leibovich added. "This is even more important where the harm is to non-combatants. The IDF has uncompromising ethical values which continue to guide us in every mission."

There have been several investigations into the conduct of Israel's operation in Gaza, and both Israel and Hamas, the Palestinian militant group that runs the territory, have faced accusations of war crimes.

An internal investigations by the Israeli military said troops fought lawfully, although errors did take place, such as the deaths of 21 people in a house that had been wrongly targeted.

A fact-finding team commissioned by the Arab League concluded there was enough evidence to prosecute the Israeli military for war crimes and crimes against humanity, and that "the Israeli political leadership was also responsible for such crimes".

It also said Palestinian militants were guilty of war crimes in their use of indiscriminate rocket attacks on civilians.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8149464.stm
 
nyong said:
There is so much misinformation and propaganda about what goes on in Gaza that I don't give weight to virtually any story I read in the news anymore. As far as I'm concerned, if it's not on video it did not happen.

But there is already enough corroborated and photographed evidence from Gaza to be outraged so what's the ultimate goal of rejecting any new story?
 

Jonm1010

Banned
nyong said:
There is so much misinformation and propaganda about what goes on in Gaza that I don't give weight to virtually any story I read in the news anymore. As far as I'm concerned, if it's not on video it did not happen.

So all the reports, photos and investiagtions, firsthand accounts and testimony from reporters and civillians to the UN, the Arab league, countries throughout Europe, credible news agencies like the BBC and to various human rights groups are all bunk because they dont have video?

Sounds like a cute way to sidestep every argument of abuse to believe the narrative you want to believe is true.
 
nyong said:
There is so much misinformation and propaganda about what goes on in Gaza that I don't give weight to virtually any story I read in the news anymore. As far as I'm concerned, if it's not on video it did not happen.

The media weren't given freedom in this specific conflict. So basically Israel assured that people like you wouldn't get a chance to see any video and would therefore find this hard to believe.

I do believe it.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Before this, the world has never done anything substantial on Israel's confinement and the human indignities imposed on the people of Gaza -- its not doing anything now either. Israeli soldiers seeing this go on will have did nothing, the higher ups would have seen the collateral damage and deaths of innocents as an unfortunate reality that they could get away with -- and again, the world did nothing as Israel rained down their disproportionate and indiscriminate vengeance upon a chunk of land 25x5 miles wide.

I believe shit like this went on ABSOLUTELY. It was a disgrace when it happened and its a disgrace now.
 

nyong

Banned
RiskyChris said:
But there is already enough corroborated and photographed evidence from Gaza to be outraged so what's the ultimate goal of rejecting any new story?

Outraged, but not outraged at this. Believe it or not the IDF is an extremely professional military organization. They routinely kick our asses in exercises. When bad things happen, it should rarely reflect on their military as a whole. The U.S. military probably has just as many bad apples.

One soldier is quoted saying: "The soldiers were made to understand that their lives were the most important, and that there was no way our soldiers would get killed for the sake of leaving civilians the benefit of the doubt."

This is U.S. policy as well. And the policy of your local police force, believe it or not.
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
I'm not surprised about this as we knew most of this already. The sad part is that despite all of this coming out, nothing's gonna change and the IDF will continue punishing innocent Palestinian civilians.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
nyong said:
Outraged, but not outraged at this. Believe it or not the IDF is an extremely professional military organization. They routinely kick our asses in exercises. When bad things happen, it should rarely reflect on their military as a whole. The U.S. military probably has just as many bad apples.



This is U.S. policy as well. And the policy of your local police force, believe it or not.

So others bad apples exonerate anothers enormous bundle of bad apples? Most dysfunctional and shitty strain of logic in this thread.

Nice way to selectively quote. If that was the only revelation in that article you may have a point.

Im now convinced your one of those people that have carved out a preconceived position and will dismiss and accept evidence only on the basis that it reinforces that preconceived position.
 

Link1110

Member
gaff.jpg
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
I don't know why I clicked on this thread - it's depressing. Nothing is going to come of it, nothing ever does. It's obvious that some terrible stuff happened during the... ground assault, and the whole situation is fucked up, but no one (important) really ever does anything constructive about it, it's depressing as fuck.
 

nyong

Banned
Jonm1010 said:
So others bad apples exonerate anothers enormous bundle of bad apples? Most dysfunctional and shitty strain of logic in this thread.
I trust the IDF leadership's ability to prosecute soldiers who commit crimes every bit as much as I do our own military. Soldiers are absolutely accountable for their actions- and should be punished- but Israel should not be demonized every time the media spins a story.
Nice way to selectively quote. If that was the only revelation in that article you may have a point.
The point is, the story is spin. It's nearly impossible to separate fact from fiction.
Im now convinced your one of those people that have carved out a preconceived position and will dismiss and accept evidence only on the basis that it reinforces that preconceived position.
*you're*
 

nyong

Banned
RiskyChris said:
But that's the method in which the Israeli army manifests that desire, so what's the issue here?

No soldier or policeman is told to give civilians the benefit of the doubt in life or death situations. They take steps to minimize casualties, but at the end of the time it's up to the civilian to comply.

It's the reason that cops are routinely let off for shooting someone who "looks" like they had a weapon. That water pistol may not be a 9mm, but the cop is not going to give the kid the benefit of the doubt. This is even more true in warfare.

That doesn't mean that soldiers and cops can go killing everyone who looks at them cross-eyed, but that's not what the quote is saying either.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
nyong, i also find it more than humorous that you accept the statement that you feel helps the case that Israel didnt do anything that bad but you wanted to dismiss the entire OP because it didnt have video? You seem to have conflicting standards as to what information you will and will not accept, standards that eerily correlate to the notions you already seem to have came to this thread with.

Why the inconsistancy? Why allow the acceptence of a quote that helps you rationalize and dismiss the damning allegattions but you will not accept the other testimony with the same open arms? Cognitive dissonance? Confirmation bias?
 
Jonm1010 said:
So others bad apples exonerate anothers enormous bundle of bad apples? Most dysfunctional and shitty strain of logic in this thread.

Nice way to selectively quote. If that was the only revelation in that article you may have a point.

Im now convinced your one of those people that have carved out a preconceived position and will dismiss and accept evidence only on the basis that it reinforces that preconceived position.

Of course he is. I will respect anyone with the intelligence and testicular fortitude to be pro-Israel but realise that the flood of accounts describing this kind of thing indicate IDF members probably did commit such atrocities.

The sad truth though is that most pro-Israel posters will simply hide behind the sheer smokescreen that was assured by the media blackout.

Totally aside from the photos of a city turned wasteland -- the fact that they dropped leaflets and basically told people to leave their homes as the IDF forces advanced illustrates the kind of indiscriminite destruction their methods wreaked upon the people. Unfortunately a lot of those people had nowhere to go, and there are serious questions about wether the Gaza incursion and devestation was necessary in the first place. I can't begin to imagine the horror of it... boxed into your 25x5 mile box, under strict border control, under strict supplies controls, an army wades in and starts levelling buildings and clearing them out with armed forces. What do you do to ensure your survival? Or do you just need a hell of a lot of luck?
 

Jonm1010

Banned
nyong said:
I trust the IDF leadership's ability to prosecute soldiers who commit crimes every bit as much as I do our own military. Soldiers are absolutely accountable for their actions, but they should be punished and Israel should not be demonized every time the media spins a story.

The point is, the story is spin. It's nearly impossible to separate fact from fiction.

*you're*

1.) No proof its spin, allegations from a forum poster are not fact. There is as much if not more proof that the official israelli line is the spin, yet you seem to not hold any tough standards to the israeli PR line but only with those that make allegations against Israel? Again, the inconsistancy in standards strikes deeply of confirmation bias and shitty logic.

2.) and dont sidestep my question, does one persons bad apples exonerate another persons bad apples?
 

nyong

Banned
Jonm1010 said:
nyong, i also find it more than humorous that you accept the statement that you feel helps the case that Israel didnt do anything that bad but you wanted to dismiss the entire OP because it didnt have video? You seem to have conflicting standards as to what information you will and will not accept, standards that eerily correlate to the notions you already seem to have came to this thread with.

My only intention in using that quote was to point out that the story is spin. If they can't get the obviously factual stuff right, why should I trust the rest of what they say?
 
nyong said:
No soldier or policeman is told to give civilians the benefit of the doubt in life or death situations. They take steps to minimize casualties, but at the end of the time it's up to the civilian to comply.

It's the reason that cops are routinely let off for shooting someone who "looks" like they had a weapon. That water pistol may not be a 9mm, but the cop is not going to give the kid the benefit of the doubt. This is even more true in warfare.

That doesn't mean that soldiers and cops can go killing everyone who looks at them cross-eyed, but that's not what the quote is saying either.

Hm this is all really good commentary, but what does it have to do with the Israeli army taking unnecessary force against obviously non-threatening targets? Is it that war justifies this further breakdown of trust?
 

nyong

Banned
Jonm1010 said:
1.)There is as much if not more proof that the official israelli line is the spin, yet you seem to not hold any tough standards to the israeli PR line but only with those that make allegations against Israel? Again, the inconsistancy in standards strikes deeply of confirmation bias and shitty logic.

Where did I say this? I simply said that I don't trust the stuff coming out of the media. Innocent before proven guilty and all that jazz.

My standard is extremely consistent. I want proof.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
nyong said:
My only intention in using that quote was to point out that the story is spin. If they can't get the obviously factual stuff right, why should I trust the rest of what they say?

What? What obviously factual stuff did they got wrong? They simply state that some soldiers were reminded that their lives were priority, and more important than risking themselves to give the citizens the benefit of the doubt. You can spin this a lot of different ways - but it doesn't mean it's a factual inconsistency or anything.

Of course there is going to be media bias - that doesn't automatically make what they say false or something.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
nyong said:
My only intention in using that quote was to point out that the story is spin. If they can't get the obviously factual stuff right, why should I trust the rest of what they say?

Again, why are you trusting that quote, and not the rest? Is that quote not from an unnamed source? Why are you giving the benefit of a doubt to that quote and not the rest of them?

Again your being inconsistent along the lines of whatever helps your preconceived notions. Its completely transparent and makes any point your trying to make seem weak and dishonest because its clear you aren't giving equal standards and weighing the evidence as impartially as possible.

You select one quote and basically accept it at face value but then dismiss the more damning quotes as spin and BS because the sources are unnamed. You want us to accept your double standard and I'm calling BS on you for it.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
nyong said:
Where did I say this? I simply said that I don't trust the stuff coming out of the media. Innocent before proven guilty and all that jazz.

My standard is extremely consistent. I want proof.
You didnt ask for proof from the IDF and you weren't asking for proof from the quote you cherry picked.

You then dismiss the report as spin. But to qualify that statement it relies on evidence that the actual story is in fact different from reality. but the only alternative to that story right now is the IDF PR line. So either your claiming that its spin without the evidence to back it or your accepting the IDFs talking points but not even showing the slightest interest in scrutinizing them in the same way you scrutinized the OP.

If that isnt inconsistency i dont know what is.
 

nyong

Banned
Jonm1010 said:
You select one quote and basically accept it at face value but then dismiss the more damning quotes as spin and BS because the sources are unnamed. You want us to accept your double standard and I'm calling BS on you for it.

The one quote is obviously part of their military's policy. Anyone familiar with the way a military is run could confirm it. I'm not accepting the source at face value, but the fact is obvious. Frankly, they could be attaching those words to nobody for all I know.

What I do know is that any media worth its salt would not take such a quote and spin it into something negative. They stick it in their article like its damming evidence against Israel, when it's a non-issue.
 
More than 1,400 Palestinians and 13 Israelis were killed during the 22 operation.

This is the only thing that needs to be quoted, the rest is just window dressing on the terror exercised by a rogue state with US taxpayer support.
 

nyong

Banned
Jonm1010 said:
You didnt ask for proof from the IDF and you weren't asking for proof from the quote you cherry picked.

Burden of proof is not on Israel IMO. And the story is absolutely spin. I'm nearly positive on that. At a minimum it's poorly researched. See my last quote for why.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
nyong said:
The one quote is obviously part of their military's policy. Anyone familiar with the way a military is run could confirm it. I'm not accepting the source at face value, but the fact is obvious. Frankly, they could be attaching those words to nobody for all I know.

What I do know is that any media worth its salt would not take such a quote and spin it into something negative. They stick it in their article like its damming evidence against Israel, when it's a non-issue.
No its not obvious. Because that type of policy is only a generalized concept. It is important to the narrative to see how a common policy like that goes from self defense to acceptence of what are by all accounts unacceptable rules of engagement and policy. Again confirmation bias keeps ringing in my ear.

And pointing out bias doesnt mean the testimony isnt true. Its amazing the depths your going here to dismiss what you dont want to believe to accept what you want to believe.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
nyong said:
Burden of proof is not on Israel IMO. And the story is absolutely spin. I'm nearly positive on that. At a minimum it's poorly researched. See my last quote for why.
So the feeling of spin means what? It doesnt discount the evidence, it doesnt disporve the testimony, its doesnt make the case being presented false. Just because you dont like the angle doesnt mean the testimony isnt true.

You keep wrapping yourself in shitty logic. Unnammed sources mean its false(shitty logic), no video(shitty logic) its bias (shitty logic). All of your arguments have done nothing to prove that the testimony is somehow false.

What it has proven is that you are determined to do everything in your power to accept the noble image of the Israelli military you have in your head.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
nyong said:
The one quote is obviously part of their military's policy. Anyone familiar with the way a military is run could confirm it. I'm not accepting the source at face value, but the fact is obvious. Frankly, they could be attaching those words to nobody for all I know.

What I do know is that any media worth its salt would not take such a quote and spin it into something negative. They stick it in their article like its damming evidence against Israel, when it's a non-issue.

That quote is obscure and there is no actual spin on it. All they say is "One soldier is quoted in saying" - that is their spin on it. The reader can then come to whatever conclusion they want from it. If they had said "We can obviously see the IDF had told them to shoot everyone in the fucking neck going off of this quote" - then I would almost understand what you were saying, but a bad editor or a rookie journalist with a bit of bias (which pretty much every journalist has) doesn't... immediately mean the entire thing was made up - and even then, the journalist themselves didn't do the damn investigation - so why are you ragging on them?
 

nyong

Banned
Jonm1010 said:
So the feeling of spin means what? It doesnt discount the evidence, it doesnt disporve the testimony, its doesnt make the case being presented false. Just because you dont like the angle doesnt mean the testimony isnt true.

The anonymous testimony of thirty supposed IDF troops?

And of course it doesn't mean that the case being presented is false. Nor does it mean that it's true. If faith in this story was a religion, I would be an agnostic. (perhaps atheist is a bit too strong)
 
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