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[nyong]

The existence of sensationalism or the existence previous erroneous stories is not grounds to dismiss this story.

I largely dismissed this story because it's either a) spin, or b) poorly researched. For reasons I covered earlier.

Either way, I have good reason to doubt the source.

 

[Jonm1010]

I have said that the IDF was the voice of reason and authority

And despite the historical overwhelming and daming evidence of all types of the IDF lying you still hold them as a voice of reason and authority over all these other institutions? I think were done.

 

[Chichikov]

Hey Chichikov did Israel commit war crimes and should some of its generals/politicians be arrested and trialled in the international court for crimes against humanity?

Yes and yes (though the vast majority of these crimes can and should be handled by regular courts, international courts are can be circus courts).

I'm not the one who started with the personal attacks, you were, so stop whining.

Don’t make me dig your post history, everyone who disagree without is a Zionist apologist.
Also, I think at this point calling you clueless is an astute observation, not a personal attack.

 

[Kinitari]

I largely dismissed this story because it's either a) spin, or b) poorly researched. For reasons I covered earlier.

Either way, I have good reason to doubt the source.

Please again outline the spin and poor research. From what I can gather, the spin you are referring to is the article trying to outline the accused acts as negative... that's not exactly game breaking.

And the poor research is one of the outlets putting one of the quotes of one of the soldiers in their article, and that quote being obscure in nature, which can refer to positive or negative things = poor research?

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Jonm1010]

I largely dismissed this story because it's either a) spin, or b) poorly researched. For reasons I covered earlier.

Either way, I have good reason to doubt the source.

What evidence do you have its poorly researched? Give me your findings, it sounds like a BS excuse to appease your cognitive dissonance.

Your logic is so ridiculous its amazing you keep holding on to it. even if you were to prove both these articles are being spinned (which you havent) that desnt mean the testimony or the facts presented in the research and interviews findings are wrong.

 

[nyong]

What? Answer my question

Point me to where a credible independent source states that Israel has an official 'shoot first and worry about the consequences later' policy in Gaza.

 

[RiskyChris]

Point me to where a credible independent source states that Israel has an official 'shoot first and worry about the consequences later' policy in Gaza.

I think a good source would be the entirety of the war??????

 

[nyong]

What evidence do you have its poorly researched? Give me your findings, it sounds like a BS excuse to appease your cognitive dissonance.

Go back through my posts. Lord knows I'm not going to do it for you.

 

[Jonm1010]

Point me to where a credible independent source states that Israel has an official 'shoot first and worry about the consequences later' policy in Gaza.

Heres how it works, I asked you a question and you can either respond or not. responding with a question is not an answer

 

[Zenith]

I'm not the one who started with the personal attacks, you were, so stop whining.

It's not personal, it's accurate. I was always trying to show Israel's actions in threads and it was so embarrassing to have you on the same "side". Talk about self-sabotage.

 

[fortified_concept]

Yes and yes (though the vast majority of these crimes can and should be handled by regular courts, international courts are can be circus courts).

OK then I withdraw my comments. At least after all this time you finally saw the truth.

Don’t make me dig your post history, everyone who disagree without is a Zionist apologist.
Also, I think at this point calling you clueless is an astute observation, not a personal attack.

Actually it wasn't a disagreement. You started insulting me the moment I entered the thread without even replying my fucking post and I replied accordingly. It was more like a cockfight than an argument.

 

[nyong]

I think a good source would be the entirety of the war??????

You underestimate their ability to cause death and destruction. If the IDF was truly unleashed on Gaza, there wouldn't be a Palestinian left standing.

 

[Guled]

shoot first ask questions last, then we see how long these so called terrorists last

 

[Jonm1010]

Go back through my posts. Lord knows I'm not going to do it for you.

So basically zero. To qualify that statement it relies on evidence that the actual story is in fact different from reality. but the only alternative to that story right now is the IDF PR line. So either your claiming that its spin without the evidence to back it or your accepting the IDFs talking points but not even showing the slightest interest in scrutinizing them in the same way you scrutinized the OP.

And despite that, it still does nothing to dismiss the evidence presented in the article.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

This is not the first time Israeli Soldiers have protested against things they were ordered to do in combat....

why are people acting like this is a "shocking, once in a lifetime, unbelievably wild revelation"?

 

[Zenith]

why are people acting like this is a "shocking, once in a lifetime, unbelievably wild revelation"?

because there are people acting like it never happened.

 

[RiskyChris]

You underestimate their ability to cause death and destruction. If the IDF was truly unleashed on Gaza, there wouldn't be a Palestinian left standing.

Good thing they were only partially unleashed!

 

[Jonm1010]

This is not the first time Israeli Soldiers have protested against things they were ordered to do in combat....

why are people acting like this is a "shocking, once in a lifetime, unbelievably wild revelation"?

Its not, Haaretz reported on numerous atrocities of shooting civillians, vandalizing and bombing known civillian homes and a general feel of wrecklessness and indiscriminate force.


'IDF troops used 11-year-old boy as human shield in Gaza'
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1073243.html


Gazans: IDF used us as 'human shields' during offensive

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1065594.html

 

[Chichikov]

OK then I withdraw my comments. At least after all this time you finally saw the truth.

So now you’re doing backhanded compliments?
Sweet, fortified_concept is evolving!
For the record, I "saw the truth" before you were fucking born.
I was in a rally calling for the indictment of Ariel Sharon of war crimes 1982.

 

[arstal]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jpNLKONNuPqClwvXJhUecaFTfY4A



Of course the Army is going to deny this, but these IDF soldiers have no reason to make shit like this up. Still using human shields. Disgusting.

IDF soliders may have no reason to make shit up, but Israel-hating activist groups do make a lot of shit up reguarly. That's not a legit source by any stretch other then wishful thinking on thier/your part.

You do know it was the policy of many Arab governments to keep the Palestianians poor and unable to go to their countries in order to put pressure on Israel. (1965 Arab League decision)

 

[nyong]

And despite the historical overwhelming and daming evidence of all types of the IDF lying you still hold them as a voice of reason and authority over all these other institutions? I think were done.

That was a typo. I meant to say that I "don't" hold them as a voice of reason and authority. Which, without going back through my posts, I have clearly stated before. To you directly if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Chichikov]

IDF soliders may have no reason to make shit up, but Israel-hating activist groups do make a lot of shit up reguarly. That's not a legit source by any stretch other then wishful thinking on thier/your part.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html
Credible enough for you?

 

[Jonm1010]

IDF soliders may have no reason to make shit up, but Israel-hating activist groups do make a lot of shit up reguarly. That's not a legit source by any stretch other then wishful thinking on thier/your part.

So Israeli soldiers should be trusted, but an article that is about testimony from isralli soldiers shouldnt be? What am I missing here.

 

[Kinitari]

Go back through my posts. Lord knows I'm not going to do it for you.

I went back through your posts, and posted a question - I was wondering if I was accurate in my observation - let me repeat it in case you missed it.

Please again outline the spin and poor research. From what I can gather, the spin you are referring to is the article trying to outline the accused acts as negative... that's not exactly game breaking.

And the poor research is one of the outlets putting one of the quotes of one of the soldiers in their article, and that quote being obscure in nature, which can refer to positive or negative things = poor research?

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Zenith]

IDF soliders may have no reason to make shit up, but Israel-hating activist groups do make a lot of shit up reguarly.

um, quite the opposite. IDF has a major conflict of interest in that whole killing civilians and repressing the populace to help setback any ideas that Palestine won't become part of Israel. But charities and human-rights organisations, they're well-known for being a secret front for anti-semitism, amirite?

are you really that clueless you couldn't see any reason for Israel lying about committing war crimes?

 

[fortified_concept]

So now you’re doing backhanded compliments?
Sweet, fortified_concept is evolving!
For the record, I "saw the truth" before you were fucking born.
I was in a rally calling for the indictment of Ariel Sharon of war crimes 1982.

Yet in the Gaza thread you had to judge everyone who was outraged about the massacre way up there from your pedestal and moderate their anger in case someone said anything unacceptable by you about Israel.

 

[Spayro]

So Israeli soldiers should be trusted, but an article that is about testimony from isralli soldiers shouldnt be? What am I missing here.

..seriously?

Anyway, it's been around that both sides used human shields, 'shoot first' policies and etc for quite a while. how is this news?

 

[Jonm1010]

..seriously?

Anyway, it's been around that both sides used human shields, 'shoot first' policies and etc for quite a while. how is this news?

Yes I'm serious, his logic for dismissing the piece is retarded and makes no sense. And yes thats true, it just seems certain people are hell bent on claiming one side or the other doesnt do it. In this thread its been a couple on the Israeli's dont do it side.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

I knew IDF was going to commit crimes when they said they will "Strategically" bomb and invade the most densely populated place on the planet to totally destroy HAMAS...and...change something on the ground...

^ so much non-sense in this mission statement, and i remember in an interview an Israeli commander flat said we dont want the press in Gaza cuz we dont want them to see whats happening...

I cant even begin to talk about how wrong this operation was, even beyond the alleged crimes, HAMAS is still there, still making bombs n rockets still smuggling bad stuff, the good stuff the smuggle(things that dont come from Israel anymore) they sell it and make more money for themselves, still ruling Gaza Mob style, still not loving Jew :O, still not loving PLO...with the only difference being Gazans are in a worst living condition now.

 

[Zenith]

Yet in the Gaza thread you had to judge everyone who was outraged about the massacre way up there from your pedestal and moderate their anger in case someone said anything unacceptable by you about Israel.

You were a crazy freak. You said outrageous things that no one could possibly take seriously and ended up making anyone speaking against Israel look bad by association. of course Chichikov was negative to you before you even made a post in this thread. I would have been as well anticipating your impending impact on any Israel thread. You're embarrassing.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

Apologist for what? I'm not the one defending Israel's war crimes. I think you're a little confused.

i apologize. your not an apologist, you just willfully ignore atrocities on both sides. When Hamas does wrong, its somewhat understandable and justified. when israel does something atrocious, you condemn it with "crimes against humanity", "war crimes" "IDF am biggest tourist group"

 

[fortified_concept]

You were a crazy freak. You said outrageous things that no one could possibly take seriously and ended up making anyone speaking against Israel look bad by association. of course Chichikov was negative to you before you even made a post in this thread. I would have been as well anticipating your impending impact on any Israel thread. You're embarrassing.

Like what?

 

[Zeliard]

But yeah, I overlooked that one bit. That still does not confirm that Israeli soldiers leveled guns on the shoulders of Palestinians while they went door-to-door. But yeah....firing from the same building that children are in is bad. Nor does it confirm that the IDF has a "policy" of doing such things, nor does it confirm a "policy" of shooting first and asking questions later Dirty Harry style. In other words, I still have good reason to question the OP.

I'm not sure what it is exactly you're looking for, honestly. You have Israeli soldiers stating that they were tasked with doing horrible things, and saw others doing the same, along with Amnesty International claiming that Israel has committed atrocities in Gaza.

It appears that nothing will convince you short of the IDF heads themselves literally coming out and saying "yes, it's true." How else are you supposed to know if it is official "policy"? These things are kept secret, particularly at the higher levels, which is why they often necessitate people much lower on the food chain (such as foot soldiers) to come out and tell everyone what's really going on.

One of your main points of contention against the original article is that the soldiers are anonymous. I'm sorry, but aren't whistle-blowers in any context virtually always anonymous, for obvious reasons?

 

[MrGame&Watch]

Before I start I'll just say I'm for a U.N. controlled Jerusalem area. I live in a predominately Jewish area in the United States, but I tend to be more critical of Israel then my Jewish brethren. The people of Israel live in constant fear. I hear stories from friends of relatives being killed. I think Israel a lot of the time does a lot of terrible things to the Palestinians around them, but it's really hard for them to just sit there and do nothing when people shoot of rockets or blow up a bus. It also doesn't help that the people elected a much more radical conservative to office. The people in Israel want peace, but they're scared of not doing anything. When I hear my own relatives talk about the Holocaust, they always say "never again". There's this feeling that after all the shit the jews went through, they deserve to fend off people who want to blow the crap out of them. I'm not justifying some of the actions they're taking, but there's a place where Israel is coming from. They aren't a terrorist state anymore then the United States was/is for going into Iraq or Afghanistan. They did what they felt they needed to do under pressure and various forces.

 

[fortified_concept]

i apologize. your not an apologist, you just willfully ignore atrocities on both sides. When Hamas does wrong, its somewhat understandable and justified. when israel does something atrocious, you condemn it with "crimes against humanity", "war crimes" "IDF am biggest tourist group"

It's not my problem you don't know how to read. I have called Hamas uneducated religious morons and I have condemned their actions numerous times. Just because I'm calling Hamas what it is -a resistance group fighting against oppressors- and because I don't think they should be judged with the same standards Israel should be judged doesn't mean I support them or their actions. Afterall their insane religious "philosophy" goes against everything I believe in.

 

[Chichikov]

Yet in the Gaza thread you had to judge everyone who was outraged about the massacre way up there from your pedestal and moderate their anger in case someone said anything unacceptable by you about Israel.

I would’ve asked you to give some examples for that, but that would derail this thread even further (for the record, you’re full of shit).
And just look at your first post in this thread, inflammatory and had nothing directly to do with the subject at hand, it’s like you have "TERRORIST STATE" in your clipboard, ready for pasting whenever there’s a thread about Israel.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

Both sides (Palestinian terrorists and a paranoid Israeli government) are guilty of war crimes? Why are people shocked and surprised at this?

 

[nyong]

I went back through your posts, and posted a question - I was wondering if I was accurate in my observation - let me repeat it in case you missed it.

Please again outline the spin and poor research. From what I can gather, the spin you are referring to is the article trying to outline the accused acts as negative... that's not exactly game breaking.

The way the soldier's quote is framed within the article, they are using it as evidence for their sensational headline, that being essentially an official policy to shoot first and ask questions later.

Either that particular media outlet is entirely unfamiliar with basic military rules of engagement, or the soldier is. Or one of them is probably banking on the reader's ignorance of these basic facts. In any case, it gave me immediate pause and leads me to question the author's integrity. Or the soldier's integrity. Or at least their credibility.

Yes, it's game-breaking. Like I said earlier,

any media worth its salt would not take such a quote and spin it into something negative. They stick it in their article like its damming evidence against Israel, when it's a non-issue.

And the poor research is one of the outlets putting one of the quotes of one of the soldiers in their article, and that quote being obscure in nature, which can refer to positive or negative things = poor research?

It's not an obscure quote. It's a blatantly misleading quote.

 

[Kinitari]

Before I start I'll just say I'm for a U.N. controlled Jerusalem area. I live in a predominately Jewish area in the United States, but I tend to be more critical of Israel then my Jewish brethren. The people of Israel live in constant fear. I hear stories from friends of relatives being killed. I think Israel a lot of the time does a lot of terrible things to the Palestinians around them, but it's really hard for them to just sit there and do nothing when people shoot of rockets or blow up a bus. It also doesn't help that the people elected a much more radical conservative to office. The people in Israel want peace, but they're scared of not doing anything. When I hear my own relatives talk about the Holocaust, they always say "never again". There's this feeling that after all the shit the jews went through, they deserve to fend off people who want to blow the crap out of them. I'm not justifying some of the actions they're taking, but there's a place where Israel is coming from. They aren't a terrorist state anymore then the United States was/is for going into Iraq or Afghanistan. They did what they felt they needed to do under pressure and various forces.

I can understand and appreciate the sentiment of the Jewish people not wanting to be put through the Holocaust again - and I do not even slighlty hold the Jewish people responsible for the deaths of innocents unless they slew them with their own hands.

While I definitely do have some critical things to say about some sentiments I've seen posted/on Youtube by Jewish people/defendants (how can they so easily dismiss the rights and liberties of the innocent people living in Gaza and claim the land they are stealing as their own all at once) - this issue is less to do with the ethic backgrounds of the people in question and more to do with the actual acts themselves.

The IDF fucked up, plain and simple.

 

[fortified_concept]

I would’ve asked you to give some examples for that, but that would derail this thread even further (for the record, you’re full of shit).
And just look at your first post in this thread, inflammatory and had nothing directly to do with the subject at hand, it’s like you have "TERRORIST STATE" in your clipboard, ready for pasting whenever there’s a thread about Israel.

I don't need examples from the other thread, I have this thread right here. You're went off and started throwing insults at me because I dared to call Israel a terrorist state which is exactly my description of you in the post you're quoting. And yes Israel is a terrorist state. After breaking international law for decades, after all the war crimes and the ethnic cleansing I think it's safe to say they've dropped to the level of terrorists long ago.

 

[mujahidmd]

Iam happy this finally came out of the closet.

 

[Kinitari]

The way the soldier's quote is framed within the article, they are using it as evidence for their sensational headline, that being essentially an official policy to shoot first and ask questions later.

Either that particular media outlet is entirely unfamiliar with basic military rules of engagement, or the soldier is. Or one of them is probably banking on the reader's ignorance of these basic facts. In any case, it gave me immediate pause and leads me to question the author's integrity. Or the soldier's integrity. Or at least their credibility.

Yes, it's game-breaking. Like I said earlier,


It's not an obscure quote. It's a blatantly misleading quote.

I'm going to have to disagree with you. You're making an assumption from that quote yourself - you are taking from it what you want (i.e. This is standard military procedure) and not necessarily what the soldier was trying to convey. For all we know the soldier was using a roundabout way of saying that the IDF up tops cared less about the civilians - innocent or no - than the soldiers. Or maybe that is what the person who wrote the article assumed the soldier was trying to say.

If people can interpret it in different ways as easily as that, I would say it is obscure - and I would also say it is not nearly enough to dismiss the article outright as poorly researched and filled with spin.

1. It was one line in the entire article, and the spin is not necessarily there.

2. It was only in one of the two articles that were reporting this story, not even the one in the OP - unless I am reading it wrong and they are both the same article written by the same person. So you dismissing them both seems silly (well I am only assuming you are dismissing them both, maybe you are not).

3. Putting forward a quote from a soldier is not "poor research" at worst, like you said, it's manipulating the quote to add effect - but all you need to do is ignore that one quote if that is the case and the article keeps its legitimacy - surprisingly - still intact.


Edit: Also, the 'shoot first' policy is clearly outlined in some of the testimonials, where civilians were shot even if they had no weapons/were putting up their hands/waving white flags. The title may have been a little 'sensationalist' but it isn't misleading.

 

[Spayro]

I don't need examples from the other thread, I have this thread right here. You're went off and started throwing insults at me because I dared to call Israel a terrorist state which is exactly my description of you in the post you're quoting. And yes Israel is a terrorist state. After breaking international law for decades, after all the war crimes and the ethnic cleansing I think it's safe to say they've dropped to the level of terrorists long ago.

I can't help but think Chichikov was right, though.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

It's not my problem you don't know how to read. I have called Hamas uneducated religious morons and I have condemned their actions numerous times. Just because I'm calling Hamas what it is -a resistance group fighting against oppressors- and because I don't think they should be judged with the same standards Israel should be judged doesn't mean I support them or their actions. Afterall their insane religious "philosophy" goes against everything I believe in.

why shouldn't hamas be held to the same standards as the israeli government? they are the de facto government in gaza

 

[Chichikov]

I don't need examples from the other thread, I have this thread right here. You're went off and started throwing insults at me because I dared to call Israel a terrorist state which is exactly my description of you in the post you're quoting. And yes Israel is a terrorist state. After breaking international law for decades, after all the war crimes and the ethnic cleansing I think it's safe to say they've dropped to the level of terrorists long ago.

You see why you’re the death of threads?
You can’t stick to a single point, and whenever you’re proven wrong you just immediately revert to another stock response, it’s like trying to drink water with a fork.
First I was an IDF apologist, then I’m a meany who does personal attacks for no reason, then I have a history of attacking people who oppose Israel and a newly converted seer of truth, and now I’m insulting again.
If it was only about me I’ll be fine with it, but you have the same tactic when debating the issues.

Once again, you are clueless about the subject, your only contribution to these threads is derailment, and you’re making it very hard for people like me who want to educate the general public about the plight of the Palestinians.

See how much failure you bring?
This thread is about you and your stupidity instead of this very important issue.

 

[nyong]

I'm going to have to disagree with you. You're making an assumption from that quote yourself - you are taking from it what you want (i.e. This is standard military procedure) and not necessarily what the soldier was trying to convey. For all we know the soldier was using a roundabout way of saying that the IDF up tops cared less about the civilians - innocent or no - than the soldiers. Or maybe that is what the person who wrote the article assumed the soldier was trying to say.

That's not how the quote reads. This is hard to explain unless you've served in the military or on a police force. I tried to put that particular quote into a negative context and could not do it. I'm fairly confident in my interpretation.

It was only in one of the two articles that were reporting this story, not even the one in the OP - unless I am reading it wrong and they are both the same article written by the same person. So you dismissing them both seems silly (well I am only assuming you are dismissing them both, maybe you are not).

The testimony is from the same people, is it not? I'm not outright dismissing what the soldiers said, but I'm not taking it at face value either. I don't have enough information to draw an informed conclusion.

Putting forward a quote from a soldier is not "poor research" at worst, like you said, it's manipulating the quote to add effect - but all you need to do is ignore that one quote if that is the case and the article keeps its legitimacy - surprisingly - still intact.

The entire article is one big "effect"

It's sensational propaganda. That's a pity if what they are saying is true, because their tone undermines their credibility.

Edit: Also, the 'shoot first' policy is clearly outlined in some of the testimonials, where civilians were shot even if they had no weapons/were putting up their hands/waving white flags. The title may have been a little 'sensationalist' but it isn't misleading.

This has happened in Iraq as well. There are mishaps. If it's deliberate, it should be prosecuted. From reading the article you would think that this was common practice on every street corner in Gaza and that the IDF's actions were one big civilian execution disguised as a military operation.

 

[Chichikov]

That's not how the quote reads. This is hard to explain unless you've served in the military or on a police force. I tried to put that particular quote into a negative context and could not do it. I'm fairly confident in my interpretation.

I served 6 years in the military, try me (hint: you’re full of shit).

It's sensational propaganda. That's a pity if what they are saying is true, because their tone undermines their credibility.

How the fuck is it propaganda?
Most of these testimonials originated from the IDF’s own probe, and I read a whole lot of them and I still have no clue what tone you’re talking about.

 

[Kinitari]

That's not how the quote reads. This is hard to explain unless you've served in the military or on a police force. I tried to put that particular quote into a negative context and could not do it. I'm fairly confident in my interpretation.

Maybe you don't understand my point. That is your interpretation - but it is completely possible to read that quote and come to a different conclusion as to what it was trying to say. You can be as confident as you want - it does not mean that what you believe is what we should all take from the quote. I personally did not give that quote even a second glance because it was so obscure, I did not know what it was trying to say. Basically, you're putting a lot of emphasis on this quote and it is pointless.

The testimony is from the same people, is it not? I'm not outright dismissing what the soldiers said, but I'm not taking it at face value either. I don't have enough information to draw an informed conclusion.

So what are you trying to say - that because one soldier said that one line, you are throwing the credibility of the entire project, and the other 29 witnesses testimonials in question? I seriously don't know what you are trying to say. All I see is one guy who said one thing that one news outlet thought was important enough to put in the article - whether or not it WAS important enough, is up to interpretation. Mountain out of a molehill really.

The entire article is one big "effect"

It's sensational propaganda. That's a pity if what they are saying is true, because their tone undermines their credibility.

Again I don't know what you are trying to say - how is the entire article sensational propaganda. How did this one quote taint the entire article, and how did it retroactively taint the first article in the OP? You need to be clearer with this, and how the whole article is one big 'effect'.

This has happened in Iraq as well. There are mishaps. If it's deliberate, it should be prosecuted. From reading the article you would think that this was common practice on every street corner in Gaza and that the IDF's actions were one big civilian execution disguised as a military operation.

From reading the article, anyone can come to any conclusion they want to - but because people can come to a very negative conclusion, like you apparently did (I did not) - the entire article is thrown out the window. To be honest you are being a little ridiculous.

And what the shit does Iraq have to do with it?

 

[Jonm1010]

That's not how the quote reads. This is hard to explain unless you've served in the military or on a police force. I tried to put that particular quote into a negative context and could not do it. I'm fairly confident in my interpretation.

Bullshit, just a couple paragraphs later the article clearly states that the orders were not to do the exact thing you are claiming the article is trying to make it look like.


They gave your cherry picked quote:

The soldiers were made to understand that their lives were the most important, and that there was no way our soldiers would get killed for the sake of leaving civilians the benefit of the doubt."

and then followed it up with this:

"People were not instructed to shoot at everyone they see, but they were told that from a certain distance when they approach a house, no matter who it is - even an old woman - take them down."

It's sensational propaganda. That's a pity if what they are saying is true, because their tone undermines their credibility.

Again no evidence for that. your arguments are weak. and arent holding up. To prove something false you have to have the truth. you have yet to present what the "REAL" truth you claim is getting spinned is.

This has happened in Iraq as well. There are mishaps. If it's deliberate, it should be prosecuted. From reading the article you would think that this was common practice on every street corner in Gaza and that the IDF's actions were one big civilian execution disguised as a military operation.

Again the article I posted most definately did not spin this that way.

 

[nyong]

I served 6 years in the military, try me (hint: you’re full of shit).

One soldier is quoted saying: "The soldiers were made to understand that their lives were the most important, and that there was no way our soldiers would get killed for the sake of leaving civilians the benefit of the doubt."

No soldier or policeman is told to give civilians the benefit of the doubt in life or death situations. They take steps to minimize casualties, but in the end it's up to the civilian to comply.

It's the reason that cops are routinely let off for shooting someone who "looks" like they had a weapon. That water pistol may not be a 9mm, but the cop is not going to give the kid the benefit of the doubt. This is even more true in warfare.

That doesn't mean that soldiers and cops can go killing everyone who looks at them cross-eyed, but that's not what the quote is saying either.

Either you're lying about your military service, or you never held a weapon outside the firing range. Or you had no idea which quote I'm talking about. Read the above and tell me where I'm wrong, or how the initial quote is a negative.

Most of these testimonials originated from the IDF’s own probe, and I read a whole lot of them and I still have no clue what tone you’re talking about.

From the OP:

The army said that "a considerable amount of the testimony in this report is... based on hearsay and word of mouth" and "anonymous and lacks any identifying details that would allow the IDF to investigate, confirm or refute it.

"The IDF is committed to investigating any claim, supported by facts, that is brought to its attention."

Defence Minister Ehud Barak in a statement urged that all complaints be sent to him and repeated that the Israeli army "is one of the most moral in the world" -- a phrase often used by the top brass in response to criticism.