It's not.
All of these are wrong but some of these are REALLY wrong. Like, you have USFIV on there which is a bottom tier Street Fighter game. Third Strike, ST and Alpha 2 are easily better games.
Actually, most of these are pretty lol.
ITT, We all have to agree on a game better than Super Mario 64
- Thread starter Polioliolio
- Start date
It's not.
All of these are wrong but some of these are REALLY wrong. Like, you have USFIV on there which is a bottom tier Street Fighter game. Third Strike, ST and Alpha 2 are easily better games.
Actually, most of these are pretty lol.
Soapbox Killer
Grand Nagus
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Ninja Spirit is a better game then Super Mario 64.
V
Vader1
Unconfirmed Member
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/jakanddaxter/images/1/14/Rock_Village_render.png/revision/latest?cb=20140401012650
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/jakanddaxter/images/8/82/Spider_Cave_screen_2.png/revision/latest?cb=20141012001042
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/jakanddaxter/images/4/45/Lost_Precursor_city_interior.png/revision/latest?cb=20141011201651
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/NWV7uYDp-Z4/maxresdefault.jpg
The images were too big so I decided to use links instead. But please for the sake of your own argument, don't compare SM64 to Jak 1 visually, it just isn't fair.
On a purely visual level, in many cases 2D games have created prettier environments thanks to their color and lighting. For instance the DKC games have a beautiful and mysterious atmosphere with much more believable environments than the Galaxy games, 64 and 3D World, which look like a playground of scattered blocks and platforms in comparison.
Aside from visuals, the gameplay is better in many cases too, for instance 64 has no mid-air turning while 2D platformers do and thus offer more control and mobility in this regard.
lastrealgameralive
Member
SOLID CONTENDER
Single Player
The biggest advantage Mario has over Conker is the physics engine which makes Mario's movement and environmental interaction so thrilling. His platform ability with long jumps, dives, somersaults, triple jumps, wall jumps, and so on is fearsome. His build up of big momentum is top tier. Everything he touches produces amazement from the shell to slide on, the wings to fly through the depths of 3D, the owl that he grasps to swiftly ascend to the top of the level to drop down onto platforms, the monkey that he snags, etc.
The main theme of Conker 64 is that everything he touches turns bad. In terms of character control Conker's movement speed is one of the slowest of all the big 3D platformers on N64 to my knowledge (Goemon might be the slowest). His jumping comes out nice, not the awful lethargic Rareware had DK do in his N64 Adventure, but Conker moves around too similarly to every other 3D platformer. Normal. Mundane. He has cool abilities to destroy, but not travel.
The biggest advantage Conker has over Super Mario 64 is that its world is better connected and that it challenges the player more. Mario has individual dream worlds while Conker has one big seamless journey. Conker's journey through the world is seamless with the exception of amusing cutscenes, but he never finds anything fun to play with that makes GOING through it to reach new areas less of a toil: only new lives and cash. The physics engine does not let you take advantage of that steep slope to slide or lava to bounce high up in pain in the air. This toil is really felt when one stumbles "off-course": when one gets lost and must now search over high-and-low for the new access point. I have on two occasions gotten stuck by some illogical game design (the cow killing and the pooball rolling - the last one might be a glitch).
There is a lot more to argue about. In terms of sheer impact Super Mario 64 beats out Conker because Conker is too reliant on setpieces and has sharper lulls in between them but never topples the great action Mario has within himself.
Edit:
But the multi-player... a bite-sized snack of a world akin to Mario64's levels versus Conker's single player adventure. Another challenging comparison.Vert1 said:
No. Mario Galaxy 2 on the other hand...
Wowfunhappy
Member
Neogaf is never going to agree on anything.
Intheflorsh
Banned
Super Mario 64 DS was better.
TheDinoman
Member
Naaaaaaaaah.
It was a pretty impressive port/remake back in the day, but in hindsight I'd play the original Mario 64 over it any day. It just isn't the same without a proper analog stick, and honestly most of the new additions were kinda annoying and unnecessary.
lastrealgameralive
Member
Try some other links as those first 3 images are smaller than my cell phone screen.
In terms of polygon count J&D wins, but in terms of how Super Mario 64 is stylized compared to the ugly design of both the elf character that Jak is (an ugly avatar is a big deal) and his mundane world of doodads surrounded by abysmally rendered water Super Mario 64 wins. The water in SM64 does not offend me, so for the water to offend me in J&D on superior hardware is very troubling. Naughty Dog rendered it that bad.
Sure.
Okay. There are plenty of minor things 2D does that 3D might not do well (i.e. kicking an enemy to bowl over enemies in a line is much harder to situate in 3D than 2D), but overall the jump to 3D is better due to more depth, immersion, complexity, possibility space (3D has more directions to jump to than 2D).
An inquiry: What does Mario need to mid-air turn towards in 3D? In the 2D games I would write that it most likely is recovering from a mistake. So, yes in Super Mario 64 jumping off a cliff without an idea of where your bottom platform is located would not allow you to wiggle (readjustment) around to veer off that lined path like in a non-restrictive game like J&D. Having the camera view behind-the-back combined with the lack of wiggle room is one of the defining factors that makes Mario's third person feel close to first person immersion. Without that the player feels the character less connected by a central force. And thus lofting around something less connected is less immersive.
AcademicSaucer
Member
Thats your problem right there
GAFmeansLIFE
Member
pretty done
Member
LOL
Run button in a 3D platformer el oh fucking el. That demake is fucking terrible.
RoslindaleOne
Member
There was no analog stick. Yeah, I know the screen could be used, but the run button was necessary. The dpad going full sprint would make certain obstacles impossible.
I mean, uhh, if it were just me this would be easy mode. I've never been able to play the game for longer than an hour without growing bored.
But I'm a freak of nature like that. Alas. If only we could all of us dislike this game, we could wrap this up in time for dinner.
But I'm a freak of nature like that. Alas. If only we could all of us dislike this game, we could wrap this up in time for dinner.
daTRUballin
Member
pretty done
Member
Then they should have waited till they could actually remake the game properly. The DS is no fit for an N64 remake when it had similar graphics and worse controls. Mario 64 remake should have been saved for Wii U or Switch.
Polioliolio
Member
This is turning out about as expected.
I almost thought Banjo Kazooie was going to get away with it though.
Super Metroid too..
But again, I want to suggest that if you think Super Mario 64 is the best game ever, you shouldn't be dismissing games, If just because it completely breaks the experiment.
I almost thought Banjo Kazooie was going to get away with it though.
Super Metroid too..
But again, I want to suggest that if you think Super Mario 64 is the best game ever, you shouldn't be dismissing games, If just because it completely breaks the experiment.
V
Vader1
Unconfirmed Member
I wasn't talking about polygon count at all, I was talking about use of color, which is blended in far more complex ways than the simplistic tones of SM64, and the environmental direction itself. It has nothing to do with the polygon count, it's how the designers created their objects. SM 64 will have random platforms floating in mid-air and cannons emerging from the ground. Jak 1 has floating platforms too occasionally but a lot of its platforms are jutting slabs out of cliff faces, or a bunch of wooden planks in a shipyard. The environments are just more convincing. SM64 has no excuse for laziness in this regard since OoT created realistic looking environments as well. I believe Miyamoto even stated SM64 was using much less of the hardware's potential.
Well for one thing, take Champion's Road in 3D World, which does allow mid-air turning. This level would be impossible without that ability, as there are many projectiles, most notably in that boost section in the form of lasers, that rapidly cover ground, requiring you to turn in mid-air so you don't land on them. On a more superficial enjoyment level, it increases freedom. I don't want to be feeling like a slab of concrete when I'm in the air. I want to feel mobile and agile, in a platformer game at least where focus is (or should be) literally on freedom of motion. J&D doesn't have this either but it compensates with double/triple jumps to increase air time, and a more fluid feeling of movement in general.
Your argument that 3D games are better than 2D because they're situated on a deeper plane still comes off as incredibly silly and should just be abandoned at this point. You'll probably be saying next that all first person games are better just because their perspective is more realistic (actually it seems like you're veering towards that direction already).
LowlySmokeGuy
Banned
Shadow of the Colossus is a better game than Super Mario 64.
Elfforkusu
Member
Last of Us is objectively not on that level as it is devoid of any new gameplay ideas or even kind of rarely used ones, instead making players play a really gorgeous version of the original Tomb Raider with puzzle difficulty from an EC-rated game.
I will 100% back NiGHTS, Chrono Trigger, Bayonetta 2, Okami, and Super Metroid as better.
I will 100% back NiGHTS, Chrono Trigger, Bayonetta 2, Okami, and Super Metroid as better.
Z..
Member
I may disagree with you heavily regarding M64's excellence but you have redeemed yourself by having great taste.
I love La Mulana. It's challenging, and the mechanics and gameplay are fun and tight. But that game is flawed, and I don't think it's better than Mario 64. Some of the puzzles in that game are simply way too cryptic, and I don't feel like an ordinary person (maybe I'm stupid?) would be able to solve them without resorting to resources outside the game itself. I feel like you have to play that game with a guide at a certain point, otherwise you're simply doing too much backtracking and hours of aimless running around because you missed some symbolism about fertility..
Z..
Member
I personally consider Mario 64 to be a 10/10 (first played it 2 years ago, am 30yo).
In that sense, I don't necessarily agree a game can be better than it, but I'll certainly concede there are games which are equally good. That said, these are not worthy of such a title:
Can agree with several on the list though. Who the fuck disagreed with Tetris? Oo
In that sense, I don't necessarily agree a game can be better than it, but I'll certainly concede there are games which are equally good. That said, these are not worthy of such a title:
Can agree with several on the list though. Who the fuck disagreed with Tetris? Oo
Z..
Member
As someone who played all of these N64 platformers for the first time very recently, I don't understand how anyone can think this, let alone how it can be such a popular opinion.
Mario 64 is perfection. Rayman 2 is great. Banjo is absolute mediocrity, didn't even bother with the second one.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
This topic doesn't really work because it's super subjective plus the whole dispute thing is stupid af because you can dispute any game for any reason even if it's vague shit like "it's simplistic" without elaborating or something weird like 3d being automatically better than 2d.
Mr. Nice_Guy
Member
I'm far from ever using hyperbole, but the people in this thread discounting the impact this game had on 3D gaming, or talking about how shit it controls, are either really young, have no idea about the state of 3D platformers at the time of its release and even after, or both.
A lot of games that have come after it are better, I agree wholeheartedly about Galaxy 1 & 2, but to discount what it achieved, on it's first fucking try? Come on.
A lot of games that have come after it are better, I agree wholeheartedly about Galaxy 1 & 2, but to discount what it achieved, on it's first fucking try? Come on.
To Far Away Times
Member
I could name a handful of games that are better than Mario 64, but I couldn't name you ones that are more groundbreaking, influencial and important for their time than Mario 64.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
Pretty much.
I'm actually wondering, what is the OP REALLY trying to get out of this thread? Like, if this thread doesn't agree on game(s) better than SM64, then SM64 magically becomes "best game of all time?" Talk about an incredibly flawed premise...
To make people argue, maybe. And to that end he has succeeded. Because if the actual point was to get people to agree, it's already failed. As soon as one person says no games were better than Super Mario 64, the premise dies. And, well...
ScottSullivan
Member
I will argue for Shovel Knight as a nearly perfect game. The soundtrack, the mechanics, originality, art, blending of genres to get the best of games like mario, zelda, and megaman
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Haha.
No.
lastrealgameralive
Member
Well, we disagree on the visuals. I don't find the doodads attractive in J&D. (I do like the visual effect of how the screen distorts when you absorb energy balls lined up in a fast sequence though.) They also look out-of-place. Super Mario 64 has abstract worlds that justify abstract elements like coins lined up on the ground. If J&D is trying to be conveyed more "realistically" than Super Mario 64 it fails because its mixture of abstraction of placing orbs lined up in paths and on every column top in its less abstract world is off-putting. Super Mario 64 maintains its dream world aesthetic better than Jak and Dexter does of its steam-punk elf world.
Okay. Something gained, something lost.
I think it is only silly if I default every 3D game as better than every 2D game. Which I did only for the platforming genre to cut down the comparison list. Heh... But again I am defaulting it really in regards to Super Mario 64's 3D over the 2D platforming games, not something like Donkey Kong 64's abysmal use of 3D.
Maybe.
This is a thread to argue the case on Super Mario 64 being better than everything else. So I deny the 2D Mario games because the greatest moments of "freedom" as you write about are found in 64.
I'm obviously not to OP, but I don't think that's the premise at all. I read it as more trying to see if a group of people could come to an agreement about a single game being better than Mario 64 as opposed to some weird attempt to objectively find the best game ever made.
The fact that this is so subjective and nearly impossible IS the point.
Of course, that could be completely off, and I would like to see the OP comment on what the point actually is.
The simple airplane spin with your tail felt more satisfying than any of Mario's moves. I love doing that throughout the game. Also consider the mini games, like the lava race. Consider the multiplayer mode. Consider the massive upgrade in visuals. The story. The humor. The music. The variety of stages and gameplay. It turns into a 3D shooter at one point. You drive a tank. You play in bullet time mode like you're inside the Matrix.
You fight a opera singing poo monster. What does Mario 64 does have on that??
V
Vader1
Unconfirmed Member
That's a fair/legitimate point in the first paragraph. I said it's laziness, but I guess it could be genuine commitment to a certain minimalist aesthetic. Whether that aesthetic is actually appealing--as you pointed out, that's subjective. For all my ranting against it I honestly think it's pretty cool in its own way, but I prefer Jak 1. The floating orbs are incredibly minor annoyances, just like the bananas in DK bug me. Every platformer has little collectibles like these. But I'm not going to disregard all the work, for instance, that DKC put into creating atmospheric, convincing environments just because of some tiny aesthetic mismatches that have more to do with the programming/design team's input than the original artists.
I should have worded differently. I would change "freedom" to "mobility" or "fluidity" so I wouldn't give the impression that the more you're able to do, the better the game is. Going by that logic, if I could jump into the air and fly forever in any direction, the game would be better because I would have more "freedom."
If you're talking about my post, to be fair I did compare it with Jak 1 which I said had a more complex blend of colors. Simplistic would pretty clearly imply just that--less blending or ambition in the color scheme. Admittedly there is some appeal in a simple color scheme, but blended tones better convey a more naturalistic impression which I prefer visually.
Galaxy 2 was certainly better than Galaxy 1. But not better than SM64.
I agree with the OP's assertion. No game has surpassed SM64 in it's intangibles. I know the game very well and have played it several times from start to finish and it doesn't feel old. I can't think of a modern game that has inspired me to come back to it over and over again.
Honorable mention goes to (Mike Tyson's) Punchout!. That's another game where the mechanics, graphics, sound, and design come together so well that I keep coming back no matter how many times I've played it.
Honorable mention goes to (Mike Tyson's) Punchout!. That's another game where the mechanics, graphics, sound, and design come together so well that I keep coming back no matter how many times I've played it.
Ori and the Blind Forest is a better game than Super Mario 64. (I also think Super Mario World is the best game of all time).
Uncharted 2 is not a better game than Super Mario 64 because the platforming is basically on rails and poses no challenge and the shooting is repetitive and reduced to fighting waves of enemies from behind waste high cover that are the same over and over again. Comparing gameplay, 64 takes U2 out back and puts it down. Gameplay is king, I don't care if your story is good by video game standards, it is still awful relative to every other medium out there.
Uncharted 2 is not a better game than Super Mario 64 because the platforming is basically on rails and poses no challenge and the shooting is repetitive and reduced to fighting waves of enemies from behind waste high cover that are the same over and over again. Comparing gameplay, 64 takes U2 out back and puts it down. Gameplay is king, I don't care if your story is good by video game standards, it is still awful relative to every other medium out there.
This thread doesn't really work if one dispute is enough to disqualify a game despite far more people mentioning it than one nobody else cares about. Some of the games listed in the OP I've never even heard of before while Galaxy and OOT have already been disputed- the more popular a title is, the easier it is to critique it than some obscure entry.
Wouldn't it have been easier to run a poll to get a shortlist of 20 games, then run it again to allow people to redistribute their vote just amongst those 20? Otherwise it's putting far too much importance on individual's contributions.
While I'm here, I dispute
Zelda: The Wind Walker
GTA: San Andreas
TLOU.
All of them good games with legions of fans and many great qualities, but for me they just aren't more fun as a rounded title than SM64, either through bloat (ww), poor combat controls (GTA) or a deriviative well-trod story with repetitive puzzles (TLOU).
Wouldn't it have been easier to run a poll to get a shortlist of 20 games, then run it again to allow people to redistribute their vote just amongst those 20? Otherwise it's putting far too much importance on individual's contributions.
While I'm here, I dispute
Zelda: The Wind Walker
GTA: San Andreas
TLOU.
All of them good games with legions of fans and many great qualities, but for me they just aren't more fun as a rounded title than SM64, either through bloat (ww), poor combat controls (GTA) or a deriviative well-trod story with repetitive puzzles (TLOU).