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[LordOfLore]

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As I said in this week’s podcast, The Wolverine feels like a rough draft for Logan. It’s a film that does a lot of what director James Mangold wanted to do with the character—take away his healing factor, focus more on character and his relationships, break away from the superhero genre—but that it was compromised to hit certain blockbuster beats. So while you have nice moments of Logan finding new friendships with Mariko and Yukio, you also have him fighting a giant robot and a woman who can shed her skin.

That being said, Mangold was able to squeeze in his vision for Wolverine’s ending into The Wolverine, and Twitter user “MauriceTheChosenOne” was able to spot it. You may recall that Yukio is a mutant who has the ability to see into the future. At one point, she tells Wolverine that “I see you on your back, there’s blood everywhere. You’re holding your own heart in your hand.” There’s payoff on this within The Wolverine itself. There’s a parasite that has latched onto Logan’s heart and it’s preventing his healing factor from working. He has to carve it out, and he briefly dies, thus fulfilling Yukio’s prophecy.

But it turns out Mangold was looking at longer game. [Spoilers ahead for Logan].

Spoiler

It turns out that Yukio was also talking about the death Logan didn’t come back from. He’s on his back, covered in blood, and the “own heart” that he’s holding in his hand is his daughter. It changes Yukio’s prophecy from literal to figurative, but it’s much more profound.

This also isn’t just fan theorizing. Mangold confirmed Maurice’s suspicion on Twitter.

I guess we shouldn’t be too surprised at Mangold bringing back an element from a previous Wolverine movie and using it wisely. Hell, he even found a use for

Spoiler

the dumb adamantium bullet from X-Men Origins.

Send me to Japan or Canada if old.

 

[LucidMomentum]

Hmm. Nice that there's some hint of continuity at least.

 

[SFenton]

I feel like this isn't something thematically that Mangold had planned out years ago (just a gut feeling), but that's a really nice tie that certainly isn't a coincidence.

He did not.

The scene in The Wolverine foreshadows a scene in that same movie where Wolverine needs to remove a parasites attached to his heart.

Pretty much how I feel. Thematically it's the same thing, but I really doubt this is what Mangold was planning when shooting The Wolverine- the character was clearly referencing the parasites, not Logan's death.

 

[Alienous]

He did not.

The mentioned scene in The Wolverine foreshadows a scene in that same movie where Wolverine needs to remove a parasite attached to his heart.

 

[swearing-circle]

I have my doubts that this was intentional in anyway but I like it regardless.

 

[Einchy]

He did not.

The mentioned scene in The Wolverine foreshadows a scene in that same movie where Wolverine needs to remove a parasite attached to his heart.

It works both ways.

 

[Raylan Targaryen]

This is what BioWare should have done when fans came up with the indoctrination theory.

Just "fuck it, you make a good point. that was totally the intention (even though it wasn't) thanks for making me look better"

 

[LongDongJunon]

He saw that it just happened to conveniently fit so he said "eh, why not?".

Still kinda cool

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

He did not.

The mentioned scene in The Wolverine foreshadows a scene in that same movie where Wolverine needs to remove a parasite attached to his heart.

That's literally mentioned in the quote in the OP.

 

[Veidt]

He did not.

The mentioned scene in The Wolverine foreshadows a scene in that same movie where Wolverine needs to remove a parasite attached to his heart.

Sometimes, creative elements come out of improvisation and no planning.
It's equally good.

 

[Jocund]

He did not.

The mentioned scene in The Wolverine foreshadows a scene in that same movie where Wolverine needs to remove a parasite attached to his heart.

You should read the article

While I take issue with the "revealing" bit, Mangold certainly made use of elements from The Wolverine in a smart way.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

He did not.

The mentioned scene in The Wolverine foreshadows a scene in that same movie where Wolverine needs to remove a parasite attached to his heart.

Read the OP. Even if it was planned after the Wolverine was finished, he still actually died in the way Yukio prophesied.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Spoiler spoiler spoiler spoilers

Spoilers more spoilers and spoilers

(Btw spoilers below)

Spoiler

Spoilers restating the above spoilers lool

Spoilers spoily spoilers.

I'm not mad, I've seen the film. Just found it funny.

 

[Alienous]

It works both ways.

I don't think it does.

The foreshadowing had its pay off already. At best Logan does a callback, but that requires a clumsy metaphorical interpretation.

Sometimes, creative elements come out of improvisation and no planning.
It's equally good.

I don't think so.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

You should read the article

Why should he do that when he can fast forward to being "right"?

:|

 

[Alienous]

You should read the article

While I take issue with the "revealing" bit, Mangold certainly made use of elements from The Wolverine in a smart way.

What elements? A katana on a wall?

 

[Jocund]

I don't think so.

I'm curious. Are you a writer? In my experience, connections like this certainly do reveal themselves in the writing process. They're no worse than the ones that come from rigorous planning. They're better sometimes, even.

EDIT: What elements? The premonition, dude. Come on.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

ITT, a random poster thinks he knows more than the director of the film knows about his own movie.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Like I said in the OT: Whether he did or didn't plan for Logan's ending to match up to that prophecy by Yukio, the fact it can be seen to is a valid read. It's a connection that can be made by the audience, and that connection isn't wrong, emotionally. Now, if someone wanted to argue that was 100% the intention Mangold had when he wrote Logan's ending, it would have been harder to prove as opposed to a basic interpretation of the text, because then you have to prove authorial intent.

But now you've got the author himself saying "Yup."

So outside of the ensuing argument that suggests "Mangold is fucking with you, he didn't mean that," there's really no reason to deny that interpretation as a valid one.

 

[Zen Aku]

We get it Alienous, you don't think it is. Even if it is.

 

[soul creator]

poetry
full circle

 

[SomedayTheFire]

I still don't understand the adamantium bullet.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Sometimes, creative elements come out of improvisation and no planning.
It's equally good.

I don't think so.

Wait, I missed this:

Do you really think that creative elements can't come out of improvisation?

That creativity can't exist unless it's been pre-planned?

I still don't understand the adamantium bullet.

It's been thoroughly explained in the OT, but what's not to get?

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Wait, I missed this:

Do you really think that creative elements can't come out of improvisation?

That creativity can't exist unless it's been pre-planned?

It's been thoroughly explained in the OT, but what's not to get?

"Luke, I am your father."

"Sister...twin sister!"

Totes pre-planned.

 

[SFenton]

"Luke, I am your father."

"Sister...twin sister!"

Totes pre-planned.

I mean, those weren't re-tied to elements that happened in IV or V IIRC.

FWIW, I will probably also rewatch the film with this tie in mind, because it's pretty neat, but I also don't really believe this was pre-planned foreshadowing or anything.

 

[Einchy]

Wait, I missed this:

Do you really think that creative elements can't come out of improvisation?

That creativity can't exist unless it's been pre-planned?



It's been thoroughly explained in the OT, but what's not to get?

Reminds me of how in Breaking Bad when

Spoiler

Walter is shown with the beard and that machine gun, the writers had no idea how Walter would end up there or why he would need a gun,

all of that was thought up after the fact.

Chances are Mangold didn't think of Logan's end when The Wolverine was being made but it seems, by his own admission, that it's something he used for Logan.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Chances are Mangold didn't think of Logan's end when The Wolverine was being made but it seems, by his own admission, that it's something he used for Logan.

Yeah, I don't see why it's so implausible that the dude who worked on the LAST Wolverine movie might, when working on the NEW Wolverine movie, go back over what he did the last time, and see something that he could expand upon that would make for a cool little connection should someone stumble across it, and then implement that beat.

Why is that out of bounds? I don't get it.

And even if it was accidental and he's just lying about it (which, okay, not much worth in arguing that) it's still a cool little connection anyway. Nothing in the text disqualifies it from fitting. So viewers can just... let it fit, if they want.

 

[Blue Lou]

If people are interested, another (hour long) interview with James Mangold talking Logan can be found here:

https://soundcloud.com/empiremagazine/logan-spoiler-special-with-james-mangold

 

[ryutaro's mama]

I mean, those weren't re-tied to elements that happened in IV or V IIRC.

They were both post process retconning...ok how about this, the retconning of (Fast and Furious spoiler

Spoiler

how Han died in Tokyo Drift?

Does that better fit for you on how an element can get tied into a new story connection?

 

[BronsonLee]

HAN AIN'T DEAD DON'T

NO

 

[MisterHero]

but but The Wolverine and Logan exist on parallel timelines

how can Yukio see the alternate future????

 

[ryutaro's mama]

but but The Wolverine and Logan exist on parallel timelines

Except they don't.

 

[zeemumu]

HAN AIN'T DEAD DON'T

NO

Fast and Furious Han or Han Solo?

 

[MisterHero]

Except they don't.

I'm just kidding. Though The Wolverine leads into the bad future and Logan takes place in the good* future

Maybe some version of TW happened in Logan's timeline. Again, just kidding.

 

[SFenton]

They were both post process retconning...ok how about this, the retconning of (Fast and Furious spoiler

Spoiler

how Han died in Tokyo Drift?

Does that better fit for you on how an element can get tied into a new story connection?

Haven't seen Tokyo Drift so I can't comment, but I guess what I'm getting at is that Lucas never came out and said "yeah this little detail in IV foreshadows it" or something like that.

By post-process, do you mean just an idea that came up in the next film and it retroactively makes the last one a little bit neater, even if it wasn't intended at the time? If that's the case then we're on the same page.

 

[Alienous]

"I see... I see a man... and he's in pain - he's dying. He's... he's lying on his back, there's blood everywhere... and he's holding his heart in his hand"

"Uh, he wasn't holding his heart... he was holding my hand. "

"I meant his metaphorical heart - you!"

"Wow!"


It would hardly pass as a cold reading.

 

[Einchy]

"I see... I see a man... and he's in pain - he's dying. He's... he's lying on his back, there's blood everywhere... and he's holding his heart in his hand"

"Uh, he wasn't holding his heart... he was holding my hand. "

"I meant his metaphorical heart - you!"

"Wow!"


It would hardly pass as a cold reading.

So the director is a liar?

 

[Brakke]

ITT, a random poster thinks he knows more than the director of the film knows about his own movie.

People misunderstand the things they make all the time.

 

[platakul]

"I see... I see a man... and he's in pain - he's dying. He's... he's lying on his back, there's blood everywhere... and he's holding his heart in his hand"

"Uh, he wasn't holding his heart... he was holding my hand. "

"I meant his metaphorical heart - you!"

"Wow!"


It would hardly pass as a cold reading.

But laura taught him how to love again. Imo its p significant that Jean is never mentioned in the movie

 

[Brakke]

Fast and Furious Han or Han Solo?

What's the difference?

 

[NealMcCauley]

I'm just kidding. Though The Wolverine leads into the bad future and Logan takes place in the good* future

Maybe some version of TW happened in Logan's timeline. Again, just kidding.

Either way its kinda haunting both timelines end with mutants on the brink of extinction. That and Yukio's prediction are borderline predestination.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

"I see... I see a man... and he's in pain - he's dying. He's... he's lying on his back, there's blood everywhere... and he's holding his heart in his hand"

"Uh, he wasn't holding his heart... he was holding my hand. "

"I meant his metaphorical heart - you!"

What is it about the scenario of Mangold taking that scene and turning it into a metaphor, for the ending of his new movie, is so implausible to you?

What about this hypothetical (which apparently isn't even a hypothetical) has you so skeptical?

Do you believe creatives do not revisit prior works, or take inspiration from those works, or revisit ideas expressed in those works and repurpose them in new ways for whatever they're currently working on? That this is a rare, strange thing? An outlier on the spectrum of "normal" creativity?

 

[SamuelSupreme]

Can Fox just hand over the fucking keys to the X-Men universe to Mangold? This guy gets it.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

By post-process, do you mean just an idea that came up in the next film and it retroactively makes the last one a little bit neater, even if it wasn't intended at the time? If that's the case then we're on the same page.

Yes.

We are on the same page.

 

[Alienous]

So the director is a liar?

He hasn't really said anything substantive on this suggestion, as far as I'm aware.

I'm just saying that I'm not convinced that the prophecy in The Wolverine was intended for anything other than the scene it foreshadows in that same movie, considering that it requires a poetic and metaphorical interpretation to link to Logan.

 

[Discotheque]

Maybe it wasn't but he did a great job retroactively making the prophecy tie to Logans ending. Technically she got his actual end right.

 

[Einchy]

He hasn't really said anything any it.

I'm just saying that I'm not convinced that the prophecy in The Wolverine was intended for anything other than the scene it foreshadows in that same movie.

He did, though.

https://twitter.com/mang0ld/status/839888687227789312?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

And you don't have to be convinced of that, because that's not really what people are talking about. It's about that scene being retroactively used as a cool tie-in between both movies. That scene in Wolverine now works on two levels, one where it talks about The Wolverine and the other where it references his real death in Logan.

It was even explained to you in this post.

Sometimes, creative elements come out of improvisation and no planning.
It's equally good.

But you didn't think it was possible for people to improvise in creative work.

 

[Playsage]

Well... I guess you could spin it that way.

 

[Alienous]

Maybe it wasn't but he did a great job retroactively making the prophecy tie to Logans ending. Technically she got his actual end right.

But she didn't, because it goes from a literal description of a death to a metaphorical one. He's literally dying on his back, literally covered in blood, metaphorically holding his own heart in his hand.

 

[Discotheque]

What in the hell are you on about