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Japan's economy in recession yet again to surprise of forecasters

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XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/11/17/japans-game-changing-recession-shocker/

Virtually no forecaster expected the news Monday that the Japanese economy contracted over the summer, pushing the country into its third recession in four years. As the grim report’s implications sink in, the data is likely to reframe Japan’s economic debate, in a few ways.

Flipping the fiscal switch: from austerity to stimulus.

If there was any doubt before Monday that Prime Minister Shinzo Abe would delay the sales tax hike scheduled for next year, the awful data removed that uncertainty. But that’s just the start.

Beyond simply scrapping a growth-damping fiscal policy, politicians are likely to push hard for more fiscal stimulus, in the form of big new spending and tax cuts. “It is absolutely necessary to take countermeasures,” Abe economic advisor Etsuro Honda told The Wall Street Journal Monday. He wants a Y3 trillion ($260 billion) package of income relief measures.

The third quarter jolt also leaves uncertain what remnants, if any, will remain of Japan’s strategy to curb its mammoth outsized sovereign debt, even over the medium-to-long term. As it became increasingly apparent in recent days that next year’s tax was imperiled, advocates at the finance ministry have been lobbying to keep some kind of fiscal discipline framework in place — perhaps a hard guarantee that the delayed tax increase would go into effect in 2017, no matter what.


It’s hard to see politicians tying their hands to any further sales tax hike in the future. It’s also hard to see Japan sticking to its pledge to balance its budget, excluding interest, by 2020 — or even a few years after that.

Still more monetary stimulus?

When the Bank of Japan shocked global markets just over two weeks ago with an unexpected fresh injection of money, Gov. Haruhiko Kuroda insisted he was being pre-emptive, getting out ahead of what he thought might be a looming drop in inflation expectations due to falling global oil prices.

Now he’s vulnerable to accusations that, as Mr. Honda put it, he’s “behind the curve.”

Mr. Kuroda’s model for hitting his 2% inflation target by next year assumes he can push Japanese growth above its “potential,” estimated at about 0.5% per year. At that pace, factories are operating beyond normal capacity and unemployment is falling — conditions that tend to push up wages and prices.

But a shrinking economy means the “output gap” is swelling again, instead reviving the old deflationary pressures Mr. Kuroda has been trying to quell. By the BOJ’s own models, that could require even more central bank liquidity.


Eroding Confidence in Messrs. Abe and Kuroda.

Two years ago, Mr. Abe won a landslide election victory on a pledge to end deflation and Japan’s long slump. One of his first big moves was to put Mr. Kuroda in charge of the Bank of Japan, replacing a more cautious governor with one pledging to print vast amounts more money.

Markets and voters cheered, on hopes that the two men understood what ailed the economy and had the ability to fix it.

The unexpected July-September contraction adds to the growing questions about that faith. Less than two weeks ago, Mr. Kuroda said in a speech that “Japan’s economy has continued to recover moderately as a trend.” It now seems his assessment was off base, and the economy was much weaker.


There are also rising doubts about whether further monetary stimulus will really do much to lift Japan’s growth, or whether one immediate result — a weakening yen — is doing more harm than good, at least for some families and companies, by pushing import costs higher than growth in wages or profits.

And there’s spreading uncertainty over just how much power Messrs. Kuroda and Abe have to pursue more dramatic action, even if they concluded it would work. Mr. Kuroda’s last big stimulus expansion barely passed his own policy board, by a 5-to-4 vote, highlighting the doubts, even within the BOJ, about the wisdom of more action.

Mr. Abe seems likely, possibly as soon as Tuesday, to combine a tax-delay announcement with plans to dissolve parliament and hold elections Dec. 14, in hopes of winning fresh voter support for his Abenomics program. But the bad data has emboldened the opposition in its attacks on his record, and his ruling party is expected to lose seats. If so, he could emerge weakened, with even less power to push through whatever ideas he might have to boost growth.

Coverage from FiveThirtyEight:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/...se-recession-says-about-economic-forecasting/

Japan’s economy has fallen into a recession. What’s especially scary about that is that virtually no one expected it.

Japanese gross domestic product shrank at a 1.6 percent annual rate in the third quarter of the year, according to preliminary figures released Monday. That follows a 7.3 percent contraction in the second quarter. Two negative quarters in a row is one common definition of a recession, though not the one used by the National Bureau of Economic Research, the U.S.’s semi-official arbiter of recessions.

The news caught economists by surprise. The second-quarter contraction was widely expected following a big sales tax increase that took effect in April. But forecasters expected a rebound in the third quarter: In a Wall Street Journal survey of 18 economists, the median forecast was for a 2.25 percent growth rate. Not one predicted a contraction.

Monday’s figure is only preliminary. But it is nonetheless worrisome for Japan, which has been struggling to jump-start its economy after decades of stagnant growth. It also has global implications: Japan’s economy is the world’s third largest, and its latest struggles come at a time when growth is slowing in China and Europe as well.

The surprise should also give pause to economists in the U.S. When the Bureau of Economic Analysis said the U.S. economy contracted at a 2.1 percent rate earlier this year, most economists shrugged it off as a one-off fluke driven by bad weather. They appear to have been correct: The U.S. went on to post its best consecutive quarters of growth since the recession.

But that outcome was far from guaranteed. As I noted at the time, negative quarters are rare outside of recessions. Economists are notoriously terrible at forecasting downturns: Most economists failed to “predict” the last U.S. recession even after it had already begun. (They also miss in the other direction, forecasting recessions that never took place.)


By all indications, the U.S. economy is the strongest it’s been since the recession began. But it’s worth noting that the recovery has lasted more than five years, longer the average economic expansion since World War II. The next recession will come eventually — and as Japan’s example makes clear, the odds are we won’t see it coming.
 
This series of recessions is like Tomoaki Ogura's toupee. A recurring problem, but nothing seems to stymie it. I'm more versed with Japan's socio-economic issues (business culture being the boogey-man, within reason), but Abenomics didn't seem like a good idea the last time I researched previous economic policies in Japan.
 
Japan is so advanced in so many industries, what's causing all of the reccesions? are they resource rich?

Japan's economy has been limping along since the 90s. The demographics of Japan isn't helping at all either.
I think this recession was caused by the tax hike that occurred over the summer.

I honestly haven't done a lot of reading on their economy as of late, though.
 
Japan is so advanced in so many industries, what's causing all of the reccesions? are they resource rich?

Japan negative birth rate isn't doing much in their favor, doesn't help the fact that japanese in general are opposed to immigration, racism is still strong and kicking over there.
 

Sage00

Once And Future Member
They were doing really well until the stupid sales tax increase too. Can't believe they thought it wouldn't have that much of an effect.
 

faridmon

Member
Japan is so advanced in so many industries, what's causing all of the reccesions? are they resource rich?

Its not as advanced as you may think. While they may make alot of hardware appliances, America for instance have the software development industry by its throat. Japan is only one of the few countries that put alot of emphasis on industrial development while countries such UK moved on past it in order to be a more economically diverse.
 

Phoenix

Member
Japan's economy has been limping along since the 90s. The demographics of Japan isn't helping at all either.
I think this recession was caused by the tax hike that occurred over the summer.

I honestly haven't done a lot of reading on their economy as of late, though.

A taxhike causing a recession? A lot of Republican heads are exploding at the thought of that.
 
Japan doesn't have much in the way of natural resources apparently. Which strikes me as really odd, since it's in an area of high volcanic activity and geology has taught me that ought to pump up a lot of rare minerals from the earth.

Japan has virtually no energy resources. They import tons of oil, coal, etc. and rely on them heavily.
 

sfedai0

Banned
Japan doesn't have much in the way of natural resources apparently. Which strikes me as really odd, since it's in an area of high volcanic activity and geology has taught me that ought to pump up a lot of rare minerals from the earth.

Not in proportion to the amount they need.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
At least the standard of living has been maintained fairly highly for over two decades of this so called "depression". That's something that should be looked more into, too many economists ignore that.

Anyway the economic issue has been nearly entirely structural for years: corruption, and lack of openness to foreign labor. So many people in the Occident would have left to live in Japan a long time ago, but nobody actually wants to live there considering the social and cultural implications. The potential for Japan is really high, but its issues are too deep rooted. Abe is trying to push for women participation in the workforce, but it will take at least a decade or two to be significant, and it's not enough.
 
Yeah, it's pretty scary that a 3% sales tax increase is enough to torpedo their economy considering their debt level. I usually don't care a ton about debt, but 250-300% of GDP...
 
Is "austerity" really an appropriate term to use for what has been going on in the last few years since Abe took over? It's not like they were being fiscally conservative in terms of spending or QE. And this was "only" an increase in the sales tax from 5% to 8%, right (with the intention of raising it a further 2% next year, to 10%)? That's lower than every country in the EU who's minimum sales tax rate is 15% and countries change theirs on a semi-regular basis. The UK has, in the last five or so years, changed it from 17.5% to 15% to 20%. I'd have to guess that the decrease in spending has more to do with the static or lowering wages rather than the tax hike - the tax hike was simply a catalyst (as in, people made purchases before the rate hike so they wouldn't need to afterwards, because they didn't want to make any more because they don't have much money).
 

AntoneM

Member
New Keynes theorists like Krugman expected this based on general Keynesian economics about economies at the zero bound of interest rates and suggested that Japan be purposefully reckless with its monetary expansion. He is prescribing pretty much the same for the US and has been laughed at by Wall Street analysts because printing money ALWAYS causes inflation; but if Wall Street had listened to him 5 years ago they would be even richer now.
 
At least the standard of living has been maintained fairly highly for over two decades of this so called "depression". That's something that should be looked more into, too many economists ignore that.

From what I understand, individual Japanese citizens are cash horders and are generally fairly well off, especially old people. But some say they stifle the economy by hording and not spending into the system.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
New Keynes theorists like Krugman expected this based on general Keynesian economics about economies at the zero bound of interest rates and suggested that Japan be purposefully reckless with its monetary expansion. He is prescribing pretty much the same for the US and has been laughed at by Wall Street analysts because printing money ALWAYS causes inflation; but if Wall Street had listened to him 5 years ago they would be even richer now.

Same situation as the US; monetary policy helps temporarily, but social and political reforms must take place to pick up the pace. The US has failed on that, and Japan has a long time to go.
 

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
Japan news thread? Incoming flood of theories and opinions based on sensationalist Vice articles.
 

Nephtis

Member
Until Japan gets over its xenophobia -and- doesn't treat women like crap in the workplace, I imagine this is only going to get worse.

I love Japan, but I can't say I honestly feel too bad for them. Once their social issues (immigration, women) are actually addressed though I think they'll be back on their feet in no time.
 
This really sucks for Japan. I feel bad for them, I can't believe it dipped already. I think the mindset of spending there just makes it hard to get out. So many people apprehensive when he first started pumping in money.
 

Abounder

Banned
Its not as advanced as you may think. While they may make alot of hardware appliances, America for instance have the software development industry by its throat. Japan is only one of the few countries that put alot of emphasis on industrial development while countries such UK moved on past it in order to be a more economically diverse.

Yea not to mention that their Asian neighbors are closing the gap when it comes to vehicles and electronics, plus Japan has territory disputes in the region (and not just with China) which doesn't help. But I think their exports have actually been rising anyway.

Time will tell how Abenomics, especially with weaker support, will hold up.
 

Yamauchi

Banned
Though living standards are high, Japan's maco-economic indicators are abysmal for reasons that are well-documented. Abe is actually pro-immigration and Masuzoe (the governor of Tokyo) has very good ideas on opening Tokyo up to immigrants, but their plans have caused public outcries. I think Japan's economy is going to be stuck in the gutter for decades.
 

bomma_man

Member
The end of Abe?


You can't expect the central bank to work miracles without the support of expansionary fiscal policy. See: the US.
 

Sage00

Once And Future Member
Is "austerity" really an appropriate term to use for what has been going on in the last few years since Abe took over? It's not like they were being fiscally conservative in terms of spending or QE. And this was "only" an increase in the sales tax from 5% to 8%, right (with the intention of raising it a further 2% next year, to 10%)? That's lower than every country in the EU who's minimum sales tax rate is 15% and countries change theirs on a semi-regular basis. The UK has, in the last five or so years, changed it from 17.5% to 15% to 20%. I'd have to guess that the decrease in spending has more to do with the static or lowering wages rather than the tax hike - the tax hike was simply a catalyst (as in, people made purchases before the rate hike so they wouldn't need to afterwards, because they didn't want to make any more because they don't have much money).
It isn't, and that's the point. The economy was growing at the fastest rate in 20 years following Abe's fiscal spending increases, then not only slowed but went into a contraction exactly the month after the tax increase. If you look into the GDP statistics it's mainly due to consumer spending dropping like a rock. What more evidence do you need? Austerity economics has claimed another victim. Abe needs to get this snap election through quick and gain a mandate to stop further increases.

Plenty of people were making that argument, that they could survive the "small" increase of 5 to 8%. Most people saw how fragile Japan's recovery was and knew that dropping that on consumers was a nightmare scenario. Hopefully people listen a bit more now.
 
At least the standard of living has been maintained fairly highly for over two decades of this so called "depression". That's something that should be looked more into, too many economists ignore that.

? The median income in Japan is half of the median income in the US and Japan also has similar rates of inequality and poverty compared to the US.
 
It isn't, and that's the point. The economy was growing at the fastest rate in 20 years following Abe's fiscal spending increases, and not only slowed but went into a contraction exactly the month after the tax increase. What more evidence do you need?

Eh, well sort of. Like all QE, its monetary impacts were such that it made bonds less lucrative and shares moreso - which makes a small number of people very wealthy (the Tokyo Stock Exchange has been going gangbusters) but only about 20% of Japanese adults have shares. For the rest, companies were doing well but they haven't been investing their profits, but rather sitting on them - in that sense, it's much like the UK in around 2010/2011, where profits of large companies were still high but they weren't filtering down into pay or increased employment. Well, employment has been increasing, but it's been increasing linearly since its lowest point in 2008 and even then, unemployment has never really been a significant problem in the Japanese economy, even during recessions (for ex even at its peak, it's unemployment rate was lower than the UK's is now at about 5.6% [UK is 6%, which itself is one of the best in Europe]). So I don't think it's particularly clear cut that Abe's stimulus spending was actually helping the average person on the street, though it was obviously helping large exporting businesses by sinking the Yen slightly and it helped traders and investors, too.

As for the tax rises, well, yeah, the timing isn't a coincidence. But let's not forget that this is the 3rd quarter of negative growth in the last 4. The last one comboned with this latest one represents almost 10% of Japan's entire GDP - I don't think you can reasonably pin that on a 3% tax rise (Especially when so much of the benefit of Abe's policies have been in lowering the value of the yen to improve exports - ie things not subject to Japanese sales taxes). The tax rise might well be why this happened now but I think the actual cause of this goes much deeper than just a small tax rise.

Edit: I've just seen your edit. A 3% rise in a sales tax is not "austerity economics", especially in a country with such enormous budget deficits. I also like how you say "most people knew this would happen" despite all the evidence suggesting that all the experts absolutely didn't think this would happen.
 

Dryk

Member
Until Japan gets over its xenophobia -and- doesn't treat women like crap in the workplace, I imagine this is only going to get worse.

I love Japan, but I can't say I honestly feel too bad for them. Once their social issues (immigration, women) are actually addressed though I think they'll be back on their feet in no time.
I think by the time their economy is bad enough that the average person will accept social change to save it it will already be too late. It would still take years after that for the effects to filter through.
 

Azulsky

Member
Isn't Japan('s economy) desperate for young people and/or immigrants?

EEfHOxM.jpg
 

Yamauchi

Banned
? The median income in Japan is half of the median income in the US and Japan also has similar rates of inequality and poverty compared to the US.
Yes, according to the OECD poverty rates in Japan are roughly equivalent to those in the US. But in Japan poverty is somewhat hidden because the poor are not living in ghettos and trailer houses but instead in 20m^2 apartments.
 

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
Wait....this can't be true can it? How does that work with the cost of living so high?

Don't all the hyper-rich people in the US skew that median?

Anyway the cost of living here isn't high. The cost of living in Tokyo is.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Don't all the hyper-rich people in the US skew that median?

Anyway the cost of living here isn't high. The cost of living in Tokyo is.

Hyper-rich skew the mean, not the median. The United States does enjoy, even amongst the poorest, a significantly better quality of life than Japan.
 

Yamauchi

Banned
Don't all the hyper-rich people in the US skew that median?

Anyway the cost of living here isn't high. The cost of living in Tokyo is.
The hyper-rich skew the median ... ? I'm confused.

And yes, living costs are not that high in Japan anymore. Even Tokyo is no longer expensive compared to places like New York, London, and San Francisco.
 
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