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[NinSoX]

haha these threads never end up the way they should.


oh and we all know that PS3 is more poweful than the xbox 360 so please stop blabbering about that.

 

[Spider_Jerusalem]

So he likes 360 better because its more like a PC dev environment.

Basically, yes. And this has not to be underestimated: this could be a good point for other PC developers too, like it actually is on Xbox.

 

[Bodom78]

Great to hear the the 360 development will be ported over well to current generation PC game developers. Shame the PS3 made things more difficult again, looks like the landmark games will only come from the fully dedicated and PS3 hardcore developers.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

well who DIDNT expect MS to have a better development suite..they get to take everyones ideas! And they always went for a simple architecture so that developers could program their machines easier...just takin a page out of sony's book *PS1 ed*.

 

[Mrbob]

His comments don't seem inflammatory at all.

Also, he openly admits his next project will also be on PS3, despite his small complaints. What is the problem here?

 

[Zer0]

carmack is way overrated,he got his day with quake and doom,but today i can see a lot of GOOD engines and none of his creators got the praise carmack is getting from all id workshippers who act as if carmack words were directly taken from god himself

 

[TheInkyVoid]

Shame the PS3 made things more difficult again, looks like the landmark games will only come from the fully dedicated and PS3 hardcore developers.

Sure. Whatever???

 

[Mooreberg]

His comments don't seem inflammatory at all.

Also, he openly admits his next project will also be on PS3, despite his small complaints. What is the problem here?

There is none. Having a GPU from a vendor that PC developers have been working with for years is already resulting in more developers working on the system than we saw with PS2, and it doesn't even launch until next year. Games like Half-Life and Max Payne were never ported by the actual development teams before (and often had horrendous results).

I'm also interested to hear what thinks of the MGS4 footage now that there's no doubt it was delivered in real-time.

looks like the landmark games will only come from the fully dedicated and PS3 hardcore developers.

If you're talking only about visuals, when have landmark games ever come from developers that aren't fully dedicated? For games as a whole, there's a little series that's been using Renderware up to this point that is copied left and right...

 

[dark10x]

Yeah but now you're compairing console software quality to PC hardware power. Or do you mean a game ported to the PC from a console WONT look as good on the PC. In your post you said a PC game wont look as good as a console title so im assuming you mean there wont be PC games out AT THE TIME of a console launch that will look as good as console games.

And yeah consoles are a leap..i sure hope they are but the gap didnt last long for xbox now did it, if i remember correctly they released Q4 2k1? and ATI released the 9700 Q2 2k2 so basically 2 months, and that was a far superior graphics processor than the part in the xbox.

I'm comparing software to software. I'm saying that there will be nothing available on the PC that looks as good as the best games on these consoles for the first couple years.

 

[SteveMeister]

higher end PC is about $3000, maybe 4k....fuk u john!!!!

Which part of

It won't have better cost performance - the value won't be as good

did you not understand?

 

[snatches]

Microsoft has done a spectacular job of making that an easy move. You get to use the same tools, the same environment, the debugging is great, and the performance analysis tools are great.

Carmack likes the tools and support. MS makes his life easier.
Realistically, both systems use in order power pc archetecture that is vastly different from PC's. MS is just better at easing the transition and providing powerful tools.

 

[SteveMeister]

No Revolution?

If he had access to a Revolution development kit -- which I doubt -- and he wasn't under NDA regarding it, then I'm sure he would have mentioned it.

 

[TheInkyVoid]

MS is just better at easing the transition and providing powerful tools.

Guys, give the dev talk a rest. You don't know how silly you sound.

Stick to what you know.

 

[Razoric]

Great to hear the the 360 development will be ported over well to current generation PC game developers. Shame the PS3 made things more difficult again, looks like the landmark games will only come from the fully dedicated and PS3 hardcore developers.

Yeah because it was next to impossible for Epic to get their Unreal Engine 3 running on PS3. oh wait...

 

[Aika'svyse]

360 for the win

 

[Guy LeDouche]

I think most developers want to cut rising costs by moving towards multiplatform models. If they can pump out games for the PC, 360, and PS3, then their consumer base is that much bigger and the potential to make money on games is that much better.

In that case, it makes sense to want all platforms to be somewhat similar in nature to ease the transition from platform to platform. It seems that Microsoft, most likely due to their own familiarity with the PC realm, decided to make the process as seamless as possible, while Sony continued their practice of proprietary coding.

I doubt it will make a massive difference in the games library at the end of the day, but dismissing Carmack and Newell as PC fanboys not only misses the point, but it comes off as downright ignorant. These guys know their shit. Their opinions are valid and the concerns that they address are justified.

hey hey, slow down turbo. I said nothing of the sort. I do know Newell and Carmack know their shit. They are two of the most influential game developers ever. I'm just saying, as a matter of fact, that PC devs are going to have a harder time adjusting to the multi-core environment than accomplished PS2 developers, such as Team Kojima and Insomniac, who have already cut their teeth on the PS2's EE = VU0/VU1 environment.

sweet christ some people are fucking sensative.

 

[-SD-]

These days I don't really care what Carmack has to say anymore. His last game, Doom 3, was a huge disappointment and felt more like a techdemo than a game. His constant downplaying of using physics in games is getting on my nerves too. There are so many new (and older) players in the scene now that listening only what Carmack has to say is a big mistake, in my opinion. He was a god in the past but it's time to move on...

 

[bishoptl]

His comments don't seem inflammatory at all.

Also, he openly admits his next project will also be on PS3, despite his small complaints. What is the problem here?

No shit. I'd hate to have to close these threads immediately upon creation, but you people aren't leaving me a lot of leeway here. :|

 

[Mooreberg]

These days I don't really care what Carmack has to say anymore. His last game, Doom 3, was a huge disappointment and felt more like a techdemo than a game. His constant downplaying of using physics in games is getting on my nerves too. There are so many new (and older) players in the scene now that listening only what Carmack has to say is a big mistake, in my opinion. He was a god in the past but it's time to move on...

Doom 3 bored the hell out of me, but he's still in the upper echelon of graphics engine programmers. I just wish he'd demand more out of the games using the IP's his company owns. More Prey, less Quake 4...

 

[Zer0]

These days I don't really care what Carmack has to say anymore. His last game, Doom 3, was a huge disappointment and felt more like a techdemo than a game. His constant downplaying of using physics in games is getting on my nerves too. There are so many new (and older) players in the scene now that listening only what Carmack has to say is a big mistake, in my opinion. He was a god in the past but it's time to move on...

amen bro

 

[J2 Cool]

I would like to hear John's reaction to the MGS4 trailer.

Sure PCs will be more powerfull, but will we actually get any games on the PC that tap any of this power?

I would also like to see sales data for high end graphics cards, how many people actually have a PC right now that is more powerfull than an xbox?

My current PC stomps all over current gen consoles... yet the only benifit I get is high res textures and AA. Leon in RE4 is made up of more polys than 10 characters in a PC FPS.

I love FPS on my PC, but its mostly for the mod community and KB/mouse. I realize that they need to make the game playable on a wide range of systems, but why brag that the PC is the most powerfull when you have to cripple all your games? I'm sure your PC will be more powerfull than next gen consoles, but for the majority of people that is simply not the case, and as a result the rest of us uber-nerds with $500 graphics cards suffer.

"oh look I'm runnning this game a 300fps with 200x AA, but all the characters still have block hands so joe dirt can run it on his windows 95 box! yay!"

There's a lot of truth in this post.

 

[SantaC]

umm Carmack has never done anything on a nintendo console (I think), so why get your hopes up now?

Not surprising that he perfers the X360 though since the development tools seems to fit him.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Since Carmack is developing for an enclosed system, I can't wait to see what he can do. It's easy to forget that Doom 3 came out in 2004 and had to run on various hardware, but it's an amazing looking game. Except for porting Carmack probably better knows the limit of what can be achieced and push harder than the PC environment would have otherwise let him.

As for regards to this thread, it's nothing that we don't know already, X360 would be the friendlier environment to him, let's face it, for a PC-centric dev the 8 processor Cell is a doozy, there is the familiar PPC core but then there are 7 other brand new processors called SPU.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

Carmack's engines have always pushed the envelope in graphics, but the game that used those engines often were not great. Case in point, Doom 3. Most people were amazed at the graphics when they first started playing. The use of lighiting was amazing, but the further you got into the the game, the more you stopped looking around, and realized that the game was rather thin in it's other elements. Story was still the simple ID story, game play was equally as simple (find the key, open the door), and it soon got boring. Everything looked pretty, and the game created a nice mood, but there just wasn't enough to do.

All of that said, Carmack still knows his shit, and is very influential in the area of graphics. Card designers still listen to what he has to say, and his thoughts on new engines are always interesting to read. Don't blame the guy who builds the engine for a sub-par game from designers who don't know what they are doing. It's clear to me that ID no longer has the designers to continue putting out top notch games, and Doom 3 lived on the legacy of it's name.

Still, Carmack is an incredibly smart guy, and gets some very early looks at a lot of new technology, so it's safe to say that he knows a lot more about the new consoles than we do. He's also not known for saying things just to get a rise out of Internet forums. He tends to speak his mind, and more times than not, he's accurate in his statements. He didn't exactly bash on the PS3 here, he just said it wasn't as nice to develope for.

 

[Gattsu25]

Heh, my posts were more in the "wow...that's hardly suprising" fashion.

I just found it odd because I read the first two comments without looking at the username, just the avatar, and I wondered why the poster felt it necessary to repeat their point. If you take away the usernames, all of the PS3/MGS4 avatar posts could be from the same person...like you guys think, speak, and *cough*damage control*cough* in unison.

Carmack's comments can be attributed to him being slow to adopt to change (though this is a cop out, IMO and akin to bad damage control), but I feel that you guys are underplaying the importance of what he says. Surely you don't believe that PC devs will be the only ones to find the new architecture design complicated.

 

[SantaC]

Since Carmack is developing for an enclosed system, I can't wait to see what he can do. It's easy to forget that Doom 3 came out in 2004 and had to run on various hardware, but it's an amazing looking game. Except for porting Carmack probably better knows the limit of what can be achieced and push harder than the PC environment would have otherwise let him.

I never finished the game, but there is a Doom3 speedrun out that is worthing checking out

 

[Helznicht]

Also, he openly admits his next project will also be on PS3, despite his small complaints. What is the problem here?

The problem is he stated that in some areas and in some ways, the X360 is better than the PS3. And you know that will never fly here......

 

[SolidSnakex]

Surely you don't believe that PC devs will be the only ones to find the new architecture design complicated.

If Bandai of all companies seems to have got a handle on the PS3 as fast as they have, it can't be all that hard.

 

[dark10x]

Heh, my posts were more in the "wow...that's hardly suprising" fashion.

I just found it odd because I read the first two comments without looking at the username, just the avatar, and I wondered why the poster felt it necessary to repeat their point. If you take away the usernames, all of the PS3/MGS4 avatar posts could be from the same person...like you guys think, speak, and *cough*damage control*cough* in unison.

Carmack's comments can be attributed to him being slow to adopt to change (though this is a cop out, IMO and akin to bad damage control), but I feel that you guys are underplaying the importance of what he says. Surely you don't believe that PC devs will be the only ones to find the new architecture design complicated.

Thing is, the PS3 is a step up from the PS2 in terms of development environment...and that didn't stop the system from kicking ass visually. Many developers pushed it to the limits and it continues to suprise me.

The games that suffered the most on PS2 were typically from those who were used to working on the PC platform...and that could be the case here.

Damage control, though? I figured it was the 360 folks that were using his statements as damage control (after what happened at TGS) by making it seem as if Carmack said that 360 was more powerful when he really simply stated that it was easier to work with.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

If Bandai of all companies seems to have got a handle on the PS3 as fast as they have, it can't be all that hard.

Heck, Epic already got their UE3 engine fully running on PS3 in a few months and admitted to to have just really started trying to use Cell at E3.

 

[urk]

hey hey, slow down turbo. I said nothing of the sort.

No problem. I wasn't directing that last bit towards you. That last bit was more general comments about the tone in here.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Heck, Epic already got their UE3 engine fully running on PS3 in a few months and admitted to to have just really started trying to use Cell at E3.

I just brought up Bandai because their games have looked nothing short of atrocious this gen and yet they've got one of the most impressive next gen games so far.

 

[dorio]

Such predictable responses in this thread.

Carry on.

 

[Razoric]

Such predictable responses in this thread.

Carry on.

As is yours.

 

[gofreak]

Do we really need to have the same debate every time Carmack comes out and says the same things over and over?

Carmack isn't lazy, he isn't unreasonable. At the end of the day he's running a business, and things that present unfamiliar challenge to his and his dev's experience are going to be expensive. It's a very natural and understandable position.

But we've been over this again and again. There's really little else to be said that hasn't already.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

Who cares? If there's profit to be made, someone will be developing on it. PS3 will be such a strong force that people will break their backs making games for it.

Carmack doesn't say anything about Revolution because there's no development kits out yet.

 

[Gattsu25]

Damage control, though? I figured it was the 360 folks that were using his statements as damage control (after what happened at TGS) by making it seem as if Carmack said that 360 was more powerful when he really simply stated that it was easier to work with.

True. However, when they do that, they usually don't make snide remarks about how unimportant Carmack is (not saying you have, but it's been said in the past week a number of times by those who share your view on why he has trouble with the PS3).

I guess it's the same as people in [xyz] camp only noticing comments against [xyz] while ignoring all the others (case in point: handheld gamers).

Comments against Carmack's importance make me weep...either for the ignorance of console gamers or for the systematic demonization of those that comment against a fanboy's platform of choice...but the effect is that it causes me to lump those that try to downplay his importance in order to question the reason for his comments and those that are only questioning the reason for his comments into the same category.

 

[Kolgar]

We'd heard that one of the very first PS3 dev kits showed up at your door. Any truth to that?
Yes, we have PS3 dev kits here.

How are those working out?
The Microsoft dev kits for the Xbox 360 are much nicer...

Whoa! Wait a second! Man, JC's worse than some people on game forums. Wasn't the question about PS3 dev kits? Why bring 360 into it so early?

Maybe it's his PC history, or money hats, or whatever, but I'm going to have to take Mr. Carmack's comments regarding this next generation with a grain of salt... It seems he's going out of his way to push an agenda.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Nice to see the predictable Sony fans reactions :lol

 

[gofreak]

Whoa! Wait a second! Man, JC's worse than some people on game forums. Wasn't the question about PS3 dev kits? Why bring 360 into it so early?

Maybe it's his PC history, or money hats, or whatever, but I'm going to have to take Mr. Carmack's comments regarding this next generation with a grain of salt... It seems he's going out of his way to push an agenda.

Using other dev kits as a point of comparison/reference is hardly something to crucify him over. People naturally tend to make comparison.

 

[Hurricane_Chris]

wow. i clicked to find the link the the carmack interview and scanned the thread a little bit...
how did a quote that basically gave both systems props end up sparking such a retarded thread?

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

wow. i clicked to find the link the the carmack interview and scanned the thread a little bit...
how did a quote that basically gave both systems props end up sparking such a retarded thread?

Because we touch ourselves at night.

 

[Particle Physicist]

higher end PC is about $3000, maybe 4k....fuk u john!!!!

um... no. just no.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

wow. i clicked to find the link the the carmack interview and scanned the thread a little bit...
how did a quote that basically gave both systems props end up sparking such a retarded thread?

Nintendumbs started it by moaning about why doesn't every developer perform verbal fellatio to the Revolution. Then they got called out and then it went downhill from there.

 

[Gattsu25]

Nintendumbs started it by moaning about why doesn't every developer perform verbal fellatio to the Revolution. Then they got called out and then it went downhill from there.

No...it actually started with the first reply =\

 

[dark10x]

True. However, when they do that, they usually don't make snide remarks about how unimportant Carmack is (not saying you have, but it's been said in the past week a number of times by those who share your view on why he has trouble with the PS3).

I guess it's the same as people in [xyz] camp only noticing comments against [xyz] while ignoring all the others (case in point: handheld gamers).

Comments against Carmack's importance make me weep...either for the ignorance of console gamers or for the systematic demonization of those that comment against a fanboy's platform of choice...but the effect is that it causes me to lump those that try to downplay his importance in order to question the reason for his comments and those that are only questioning the reason for his comments into the same category.

I agree and have never downplayed his achievements (hell, I stick up for Doom 3 and its engine all the time). He is an incredible programmer and he absolutely knows what he is talking about.

I do not believe that he is infallible, however. I am certainly no expert on the business of programming as he is, but I have enough knowledge on the subject to disagree with some of his recent points about where the industry should be heading. Years ago, he suggested that the concept of a unified lighting model is where we will be heading...and he was correct. Now, he is essentially claiming that we should not be approaching complex physics with the kind of "gusto" that many others have. He has downplayed it, and I disagree for a number of reasons. I also feel he is COMPLETELY wrong with his idea that new console generation do not represent a leap forward. He is totally off base, and the proof is out there. Why would he bring up a more powerful PC in the face of a game console unless he was talking about games? The PC games themselves always lag far behind the new console curve and typically take 1-2 years to really start catching up.

Regarding his view on PS3 and X360, it's not so much that I believe he is incorrect (quite the opposite), but rather, I feel that his statements can and WILL be misconstrued as if he was actually commenting on system performance. Posts such as "X360 for teh win!!1" only serve to prove this to me. I would like to hear his comments on actual performance now, not simply its ease of use.

Of course, his lack of enthusiasm towards physics simulations seems to coincide with his dislike of Cell. It seems to me that, a lot of the areas where Cell may be able to really perform well are areas that HE is not interested in and may not even bother using. Just a guess.

I think Carmack's viewpoint is VERY valuable...but only for a specific type of programmer. I'd like to hear more about Cell from those used to working with architecture that differs heavily from the PC.

Regarding this kind of thread, I believe a lot of people have their viewpoint and really DO lump everything else together into a "not their viewpoint" group.

 

[sonycowboy]

wow. i clicked to find the link the the carmack interview and scanned the thread a little bit...
how did a quote that basically gave both systems props end up sparking such a retarded thread?

I definitely agree that the thread has far too much damage control and worthless attacks, but I think you have a somewhat different interpretation than most of Mr. Carmack's tone.

I don't particularly see any positive comments for the PS3 there other than saying, "hell, it's ALOT better than the PS2". I understand that he's heavily influenced by development environments, but it's interesting because we've heard from so many other developers that the PS3 is CLEARLY a more powerful system and he makes absolutely no direct comments regarding system power other than the PS3 isn't a magnitude of power greater than the 360 / latest and greatest PC. Given that a magnitude of power is 10x, I think we all already knew that.

It just would have been more revealing for him to say a little bit more than general architecure preferences, and more about the overall system performance, IMO.

Of course, this was all discussed days ago when it was portrayed as Carmack v. Jaffe.

 

[Gattsu25]

Good post and i definately agree with you.

Regarding this kind of thread, I believe a lot of people have their viewpoint and really DO lump everything else together into a "not their viewpoint" group.

Doesn't help that you guys all have the same avatar

 

[krypt0nian]

Doesn't help that you guys all have the same avatar

Adblock for the win!

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Good post and i definately agree with you.Doesn't help that you guys all have the same avatar

Because MGS and Hideo Kojima rules.