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[mauaus]

Vagrant Story took me the longest time to beat back in the days. I had no idea what I was doing and tried to risked everything in one massive, unending chain combo.

This is what i want to play on my viita, square should really cash in doing a remake... Graphical update only, the gameplay is all kinds of aces

 

[M*A*S*H]

Look no further than the Megaman Battle Network series (first few games are gba.)

Battles play out on that grid. You move around on your side of the grid and try to defeat the enemies attacking you from their side. At the start of every battle you pick cards (chips) to use, ranging from simple cannons to invoking bosses. The chips are assigned letters and when you pick them in order they combine into more powerful and sometimes vastly different versions of themselves. Once the battle starts, a gauge at the top of the screen fills up, letting you pause the battle and choose more chips once it's full. Winning battles earns you cash or chips, the faster you beat the battle the better the reward. I could go on and on about these games. The battles are fast and fluid and require plenty of both dexterity and forethought. The variety of enemies and abilities is enormous. Bosses are distinct and challenging and the postgame content is extensive. MBN3 has enough post game content for a whole other game. They're digital crack and I've barely scratched the surface here.

 

[foxdvd]

you want a challenge...pick up 7th Saga....you will thank me later

 

[jorgeton]

The whole Xenoblade seeing the future part of its battle system was pretty tricky.

It literally took me to the last boss fight to figure out how to properly use the visions -- ie. using the Monado to shield teammates from harm. I know they explain it in-game, but for some reason it didn't really click until the last few boss fights.

Xenoblade's combat system is pretty involved actually.

 

[Syril]

you want a challenge...pick up 7th Saga....you will thank me later

You mean a challenge from your character's stat gains being artificially lowered during localization with no respect to the rest of the game's balance?

 

[boiled goose]

Knights in the nightmare.
Real time
strategy
Bulletstorm

All at freaking once.

Oh and subsystems galore. Beat it twice and still don't know how everything works.

 

[dokish]

What's the best version of Resonance of Fate? I'm interested.

 

[TwoDurans]

resonance of fate is not challenging at all,in fact probably even the least challenging we had this gen,it's just the tutorial is so bad you have to figure out all for yourself

you don't have to do anything to overpower the characters,they become gods just as they level up,on level 100 maschine gun i think they had 90% stun rate,meaning that the final boss or uber secret post game boss can't even take a turn because they are stunned for the entire battle,it's completely broken

That's what is so great about this game to me. If you're willing to put in the time and max out your characters' weapons then you're rewarded. Maybe it's just how I play RPGs, but I prefer to grind or XP farm so that my characters only have issues with the bosses (and maybe not even then if I've farmed enough).

Oddly enough, my favorite Final Fantasy game, FFVIII, punished me for playing this way.

 

[Retro_]

Thread reminded me I still have alot to check out in the realm of JRPGs

Thanks for the Tri-Ace and Ys reminders

 

[Myriadis]

resonance of fate is not challenging at all,in fact probably even the least challenging we had this gen,it's just the tutorial is so bad you have to figure out all for yourself

you don't have to do anything to overpower the characters,they become gods just as they level up,on level 100 maschine gun i think they had 90% stun rate,meaning that the final boss or uber secret post game boss can't even take a turn because they are stunned for the entire battle,it's completely broken

If your level for the machine gun is 100, you are clearly overpowered. On a normal playthrough, this level for your characters main weapon at the end of the game is normally around 30-35.
And surprise, the fact that being massively overpowered = easy boss is in every RPG.

which?

Was mentioned before, but it doesn't work all time, especially when one character is low on HP.

 

[Error]

And yet, once you figure it out it's extremely easy because there's basically one tactic that's completely broken in any fight.

which?

 

[Viola of the Abyss]

If you understand Japanese you should definitely give a chance to Venus & Braves!

The combat system is fantastic!
From my other thread:

You have a 4x3 grid in which you place up to 7 characters.
The grid has a Front Row, Middle Row and Back row.
The Front attacks, the Middle defends the Front, and the Back heals themselves or the other characters in the Back row.
The enemy can only attack the front row and the ONLY interaction you have with the characters is to tell them to Stay in position or Rotate.

This means that you can plan the battle in advance with an incredible amount of detail.
Permadeath also makes everything much more involving.

There are tons of other details about the game such as the world map and the "random encounter" system that makes it easily one of the best JRPGs on the Ps2 if not ever!

Now, THAT*'s challenging.

Edit: *

Spoiler

THAT= Resonance of Fate

:3

I can't wait to play this game! I bought it on day 1 PAL release but unfortunately the text is almost unreadable on an SDTV...

Try the Digital Devil Saga series.

I curiously found DDS1 and 2 to be much easier than Persona 3 & 4.
Once you start chomping away at the enemies in DDS you can break the system any way you want.

 

[Parakeetman]

I curiously found DDS1 and 2 to be much easier than Persona 3 & 4. Once you start chomping away at the enemies in DDS you can break the system any way you want.

Though with Personal 3 & 4 its pretty easy if you know how to fusion good personas. Then its pretty much just slogging through the encounters after that. I had an Alice that was INSANELY strong in P3. Good times!

Its kinda similar to if you know what you are doing with fusion even the Devil Survivor series becomes not too bad.

I think the whole eating bit with DDS 1 & 2 to be the interesting part of the game itself, since its more relying on that rather than having a varied selection of uber personas to swap through.

 

[foxdvd]

You mean a challenge from your character's stat gains being artificially lowered during localization with no respect to the rest of the game's balance?

 

[El Sloth]

The World Ends With You is what immediately popped up in my mind. One of the most rewarding feelings I've gotten playin games is when everything just started to click and I began understanding how to properly utilize the light puck and how it dictates which screen you should be paying attention to and at any one time.

Fun game. Experimenting with different pin sets was fun too.

 

[Akuun]

Here's a MSPaint image from a thread about a year ago that sums it up.

And after the first tri-attack it's easy to set yourself up for another one using the same basic tactic since the characters are in a triangle formation.

Now that I am armed with this information, I may go back and try RoF again.

<-- one of the people who gave up because he was way too confused, despite reading the tutorials repeatedly.

 

[Tarrasque]

Shadow Hearts' combat system was pretty memorable. The timing based system they used was called Judgement Ring, and would require you to stop on certain points (Like the red sliver below) to land Crits. Loved it, really kept you engaged in battles.

 

[androvsky]

Another one is Ar Tonelico 2, along the lines of Legend of Dragoon. It has timing based defense, so if you're good with the timing you're practically invincible, but if you're not paying attention you can get your party wiped on an average fight fairly quickly. In most regular fights, your melee is basically only there as meat shields while your mage charges up, but how you pick melee attacks influences what spells you can cast, as well as leveling up the spells. Since you're button mashing during attack phase and doing the timing-based blocks on the defense phase all while managing your mage's powering up, it ends up being a lot of fun to play IMO.

On the other end is Magna Carta, which has timing-based attacks so sensitive I couldn't get through the tutorial battle. I think I played it on a BC PS3 so there may have been some extra input lag, but I was going nuts trying to get the timing down.

 

[ronito]

Yeah, Resonance of Fate was unnecessarily obtuse.
I mean the 26 step tutorial was terrible.
Especially since you really only needed to master like 2 techniques.

And Vagrant story. I keep meaning to go back but I don't have the heart to put up with all the weaponry system stuff again.

 

[BadWolf]

And Vagrant story. I keep meaning to go back but I don't have the heart to put up with all the weaponry system stuff again.

About that...

I didn't know you were supposed to delve deep into weapons so you could have different ones for different enemy types. Ignored weapon forging like I do in most other games.

I pretty much went with what looked cool and used it for everything, barely switching to new weapons much. Was still able to finish no prob (ignorance is bliss and all that).

Its a great game, you should give it another shot.

 

[Mesoian]

Xenoblade, apparently, though I've never bothered trying. Something about agility and toppling.

By the 3rd hour, you can game the hell out of the positional and break/topple/daze system, it actually becomes quite easy.

So much so that the end of the game ads things like massive enemies in tiny rooms filled with acid or lava or sometimes just giant pits that kill you so you can't exploit the positional system during boss fights.

Monolith has always been terrible during the late game portion of their RPGs.

 

[chaosblade]

By the 3rd hour, you can game the hell out of the positional and break/topple/daze system, it actually becomes quite easy.

So much so that the end of the game ads things like massive enemies in tiny rooms filled with acid or lava or sometimes just giant pits that kill you so you can't exploit the positional system during boss fights.

Monolith has always been terrible during the late game portion of their RPGs.

That really only happens twice, once around mid-game and one toward the end. And I don't think it's as bad as most people make it out to be - I never see people complaining in the OT about

Spoiler

the mandatory fight in the lava cave

. Honestly, the framerate during that second fight is the biggest problem, it makes the game feel completely unresponsive when it's moving at like 15FPS.

But yeah, Xenoblade isn't a hard game at all. You have to try to be truly underleveled, and with a half decent strategy most enemies go down pretty easily. Even the superboss has a ton of leeway, you don't need any super-optimal setup or strategy for it, just some specific equipment and a general understanding of the game mechanics.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Why are people bringing up tri-attack? You can't do that in many arenas since they aren't open. And without upgrades you won't breaking or juggling enemies so easily.

Anyways I'm saddened only another poster recommended Star Ocean 3 and no one has suggested Valkyrie Profile 2.

 

[massoluk]

What, no mention of The Last Remnant at all?

There's challenging, then there's nonsensically over complicated.

 

[7threst]

All three Valkyrie Profile games and their battlesystems! Pretty hard to understand and to master systems but very rewarding if you do!

 

[Boney]

gl hf dd.

but monster hunter isn't an jrpg in any way shape or form

 

[Ferrio]

The lack of Dragon Quarter suggestions makes me sad. Maybe the game is too old people have forgotton?

 

[youngwerther]

Dragon Quest

 

[Myriadis]

The lack of Dragon Quarter suggestions makes me sad. Maybe the game is too old people have forgotton?

It was mentioned seven times in this thread, even once by you. There's no way that this gem is forgotten.

 

[Ferrio]

It was mentioned seven times in this thread, even once by you. There's no way that this gem is forgotten.

It should be the only thing mentioned.

 

[Augemitbutter]

All three Valkyrie Profile games and their battlesystems! Pretty hard to understand and to master systems but very rewarding if you do!

only played 1&2. i think the first is still king and more fun.

 

[John Rabbit]

Persona 3: FES adds some extra content and an additional epilogue chapter (The Answer) not
the ability to control characters indvidually. That's Persona 3 Portable for the PSP (Which also has it's downs including the entire Day parts of the game playing like a Visual Novel)

I'd recommend just to keep playing your current P3 save.

if i thought some kind of update to P3:FES was coming (it probably is) any time soon, i'd stop playing right now because of not being able to control all the party members.

plus junpei is growing on me. he's like an even goofier version of yosuke.

 

[Mondriaan]

but monster hunter isn't an jrpg in any way shape or form

Structurally it's very similar to PSO, which could be considered a jrpg. There are some differences like your character doesn't have levels per se (although there is a hunter rank).

Your armor can be leveled up. Mechanically, having a new special ability after leveling up (by grinding) and having a new skill set due to putting together a new armor set (after grinding some boss for parts) is not that different.

 

[Viola of the Abyss]

Though with Personal 3 & 4 its pretty easy if you know how to fusion good personas. Then its pretty much just slogging through the encounters after that. I had an Alice that was INSANELY strong in P3. Good times!

Its kinda similar to if you know what you are doing with fusion even the Devil Survivor series becomes not too bad.

I think the whole eating bit with DDS 1 & 2 to be the interesting part of the game itself, since its more relying on that rather than having a varied selection of uber personas to swap through.

This is exactly the reason of why I consider DDS to be easier than Persona 3/4.

You know that you have to devour in DDS, it's a terrific boost to your ability points, after that you just have to decide which abilities to unlock. Once you figure the order in which to unlock them it all becomes easier.

In Persona instead you have a ton of possible combinations when fusing personas, you can do dual, triple and if I remember correctly even 4 and 5 way fusions. The outcome of the fusion can fail (and if you forgot to save it can be a huge pain), the abilities that can be inherited are very limited in choice (which means that you are forced to give up abilities that you could need).

I don't know, DDS seems much more linear in that respect. Not that it is a bad thing... Also the dungeon design kinda compensates for that...

 

[thetrin]

Here's a MSPaint image from a thread about a year ago that sums it up.

And after the first tri-attack it's easy to set yourself up for another one using the same basic tactic since the characters are in a triangle formation.

That doesn't seem complicated at all. That seems really simple, actually.

Structurally it's very similar to PSO, which could be considered a jrpg. There are some differences like your character doesn't have levels per se (although there is a hunter rank).

Your armor can be leveled up. Mechanically, having a new special ability after leveling up (by grinding) and having a new skill set due to putting together a new armor set (after grinding some boss for parts) is not that different.

MonHun is not an RPG. The sooner we all agree on that, the sooner we can move on to better candidates.

I love MonHun, but it's a multiplayer cooperative action game.

 

[P90]

Resonance of Fate is so complicated most people just give up.

That's me. The game looked like it had real potential. The battle system just frustrated me. I didn't have the patience to trudge on.

 

[Riposte]

There's challenging, then there's nonsensically over complicated.

There's being smart enough to understand things, then there's not. (Basically, there isn't much to be said if we are dumbing it down to that.)


Also it is a bit too late to say something is not a JRPG in this thread. Seems there are more non-JRPGs in this thread than not.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Resonance of Fate is so complicated most people just give up.

But once you figure it out it's so easy you can kill enemies way stronger than you should be able to with ease. Really hate that aspect of it tbh.

 

[MechaX]

Here's a MSPaint image from a thread about a year ago that sums it up.

And after the first tri-attack it's easy to set yourself up for another one using the same basic tactic since the characters are in a triangle formation.

And this is how I managed to break almost 99% of the battles in Resonance of Fate (I haven't tried the optional post-game dungeon, however).

The battle system starts off complicated, but once you really start to abuse this strategy in addition to having two party members with dual SMGs, most battles start to become pretty trivial. Sure, there is the odd battle where you get an environment that doesn't easily allow for this, but that is far and few between.

As for my pick, I would probably say The World Ends With You. The game eventually requires more finesse for the top-screen gameplay than mashing forward. Things get even more intensive when you have to start switching off between finishers for the top and bottom screens. It is hard to describe, but just see a video on it sometime.

There's being smart enough to understand things, then there's not.

I don't know if someone not fully understanding The Last Remnant's system, where the game does keep a lot of stuff hidden under the hood, is really a good subject to be an asshole about.

 

[Lumpy Onion]

FFXIII makes your build of little importance, but that it is the furthest towards correct and incorrect meaning effective and ineffective. A battle can be a ten minute slog, or a thirty second massacre depending on your understanding of the strategy for the encounter.

FF XIII has a pretty amazing battle system. It surprises me how all over the place people were with impressions of the battle difficulty. Some said they could just press x to win (lol) Some said they could rely on a couple paradigms to beat the game. And many others were slammed down by the bosses of chapters 9 and 11 and almost quitting.

I think it's a battle system that each player can experience differently depending on how they approach their paradigms and strategies, and also how the player understands the battle system. After four play thoughts I am still discovering new little nuisances of the combat. Especially when you go beyond the sure-fire winning commando and 2 ravager paradigm.

 

[Riposte]

I don't know if someone not fully understanding The Last Remnant's system, where the game does keep a lot of stuff hidden under the hood, is really a good subject to be an asshole about.

Not fully understanding something is a bit different from assuming the system is nonsensical. In fact you don't have to fully understand it to succeed, like most games.

 

[Aexact]

What are some jRPGs that provide a challenge in combat mechanism in the sense that with the same characters at the same lvl and build, if you play good you can win a fight that normally you will end up losing?

Are you asking for a jRPG where you can win in a battle with a margin of error so that your pre-battle preparations are not as important as how you fight in battle?

Sounds counter to the whole customizability aspect of RPGs, you know? Leveling up is also an aspect of customizability when you initiate a battle. Entering a battle on your own terms and such (though yeah, in Persona 3, not having your entire underleveled party go down to half HP in one attack is pretty essential).

Still, consider action RPGs (Tales of, Star Ocean, Ys, Odin Sphere or Oboro Muramasa).

If you're looking for an active turn based battle system with lots of options, consider Wild Arms 4 (strong emphasis on positioning and ways to influence it), Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter (tense survival game with a strict mechanic to limit what kinds of moves you can make), or Mana Khemia series (lots of creativity on what happens and how you can respond on a turn).

Stuff like Resonance of Fate (haven't played, just assuming), The Last Remnant, Valkyrie Profile(s) put heavy influence on complex pre-battle preparation stuff.

 

[boiled goose]

Knights in the nightmare.
Real time
strategy
Bulletstorm

All at freaking once.

Oh and subsystems galore. Beat it twice and still don't know how everything works.

see no one else has echoed my thoughts so far.
forgot to mention you dont have health, but time.
also the win condition for battles is not kill all enemies, but rather it is a bingo like roulette system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-pkUpvDT5A

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

If you're "having" to grind grind in a Megaten game, you just activated Easy Mode.

Shin Megami Tensei 3

It's like P3 but nastier, and still to this day, Press Turn remains the finest turn-based RPG combat ever devised.

Puts both the "A" and the "RPG" in "ARPG". Building, tactical exploiting of weaknesses, the properties of moves (sabaki, OTG, juggling), corner pressure, the works. Well, if you play above Normal.

Vagrant Story took me the longest time to beat back in the days. I had no idea what I was doing and tried to risked everything in one massive, unending chain combo.

Good man.

Breath of fire V Dragon Quarter is what you want. Great game, great combat, very unique mechanics not seen in any other game and is challenging. Damn shame another wasn't made.

Good man.

*so plateauey

Fixed again.

 

[jb1234]

FF XIII has a pretty amazing battle system. It surprises me how all over the place people were with impressions of the battle difficulty. Some said they could just press x to win (lol) Some said they could rely on a couple paradigms to beat the game. And many others were slammed down by the bosses of chapters 9 and 11 and almost quitting.

My biggest issue with FFXIII was that I didn't figure out until chapter 11 that Sentinels are life-savers. Not that the game got dramatically easier after that but some of the bosses were actually beatable.

I own a copy of Breath of Fire V but I've barely touched it. I should put it in. I'm just afraid of the difficulty.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

My biggest issue with FFXIII was that I didn't figure out until chapter 11 that Sentinels are life-savers. Not that the game got dramatically easier after that but some of the bosses were actually beatable.

I own a copy of Breath of Fire V but I've barely touched it. I should put it in. I'm just afraid of the difficulty.

You will die. You will have to restart.

This is both a warning and comfort. It's very freeing so you can experiment and wallow in the atmosphere and deep combat and character-building systems.

 

[jb1234]

You will die. You will have to restart.

This is both a warning and comfort. It's very freeing so you can experiment and wallow in the atmosphere and deep combat and character-building systems.

That doesn't strike me as very comforting. Only one way to find out, though...

I also found BoFIV to be quite challenging (especially the final bosses, which took me an hour a piece to beat) so this isn't an isolated thing for me...

 

[kiyomi]

I'm surprised so many people say RoF is challenging.

For the first hour or two, maybe. But once you realise the key is to destroy body parts to earn bezels back so you can do your crazy Hero actions, it's very simple. Perhaps the most challenging aspect is that early on, they don't explain much, and secondly, the fact that you only have 3 bezels available to you at the beginning might seem unforgiving, though in hindsight you will probably just realise you weren't utilizing your Hero actions correctly.

However once you've got an extra couple of bezels the mechanics are pretty simple to wrap your head around.

Hero action Scratch [lose bezel], Hero action Direct [lose bezel], destroy body part [regain multiple bezels], rinse, repeat.

That gif does is a disservice, the game has such great cinematic combat, but it's not complicated or taxing. Great game.

 

[Astral]

Vagrant Story took me the longest time to beat back in the days. I had no idea what I was doing and tried to risked everything in one massive, unending chain combo.

This. I bought off of PSN and never beat it. I just had no idea what I was doing. I found myself constantly going through menus and switching weapons. It would also take me forever to kill some bosses. Unless I did some huge chain I barely did any damage. I couldn't get into it. It's a shame because the story was interesting and I found the cutscenes fascinating.

 

[Meccanical]

This. I bought off of PSN and never beat it. I just had no idea what I was doing. I found myself constantly going through menus and switching weapons. It would also take me forever to kill some bosses. Unless I did some huge chain I barely did any damage. I couldn't get into it. It's a shame because the story was interesting and I found the cutscenes fascinating.

I ended up just looking at a series of videos on youtube that showcased the bosses and the cutscenes.

I enjoyed that way more then actually playing the game, seriously the dialogue and cinematography is great.