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[Joel Was Right]

Six dead in Baghdad bomb blasts

At least six people have died after two explosions in quick succession struck a Shia area of the Iraqi capital. Some 16 people were also wounded in the blasts, which happened near Baghdad's Sadr City neighbourhood, Iraqi officials said. One bomb was planted on a motorcycle and the other was a roadside device. The attack comes amid a rise in sectarian tensions following the withdrawal of the last US combat troops in December.
​

Iraqi civilian deaths climb in 2011: study

The number of civilians killed in violence in Iraq rose slightly in 2011 from the previous year, as daily bombings and attacks continued to claim victims almost nine years after the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, a study showed on Monday. A total of 4,059 civilians were killed in violent incidents in Iraq in 2011, compared to 3,976 in 2010, rights group Iraq Body Count said in its annual study. That took the number of civilian deaths recorded since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion that toppled Saddam and unleashed a sectarian conflict to more than 114,000.
​

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16420554
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/02/us-iraq-violence-toll-idUSTRE80109X20120102

 

[Lamel]

I wonder what the numbers will be next year, since the U.S. is officially out of there. Hopefully much, much lower. However, things don't look too good honestly.

 

[Myoclonic Jerk]

Not even Saddam have killed that much..

 

[noah111]

Not even Saddam have killed that much..

Something something freedom something something WMDs etc etc.

 

[drexplora]

so Iran is next?

 

[noah111]

Spoiler

Can't get this song out of my head now;

Just a day,
Just an ordinary day.
Just trying to get by.
Just a boy,
Just an ordinary boy.
But he was looking to the sky.
And as he asked if I would come along
I started to realize
That everyday he finds
Just what he's looking for,
Like a shooting star he shines.

He said take my hand,
Live while you can
Don't you see your dreams lie right in the palm of your hand​

 

[q_q]

Not even Saddam have killed that much..

Not true. But I understand and agree with your point.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Not even Saddam have killed that much..

So having Saddam back would have been a preferable option with no ability fir people to vote or have a say in how they run their life's.

This was to be expected with the US withdraw. Certain groups want to create an image of Iraq in total chaos and non-functioning, which certain posters here eat up and rebroadcast that message, when it's not the case.

 

[speculawyer]

Six dead in Baghdad bomb blasts

At least six people have died after two explosions in quick succession struck a Shia area of the Iraqi capital. Some 16 people were also wounded in the blasts, which happened near Baghdad's Sadr City neighbourhood, Iraqi officials said. One bomb was planted on a motorcycle and the other was a roadside device. The attack comes amid a rise in sectarian tensions following the withdrawal of the last US combat troops in December.
​

Iraqi civilian deaths climb in 2011: study

The number of civilians killed in violence in Iraq rose slightly in 2011 from the previous year, as daily bombings and attacks continued to claim victims almost nine years after the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, a study showed on Monday. A total of 4,059 civilians were killed in violent incidents in Iraq in 2011, compared to 3,976 in 2010, rights group Iraq Body Count said in its annual study. That took the number of civilian deaths recorded since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion that toppled Saddam and unleashed a sectarian conflict to more than 114,000.
​

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16420554
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/02/us-iraq-violence-toll-idUSTRE80109X20120102

Religious sectarianism certainly sucks doesn't it? Let us hope they can rise above it.

 

[iamaustrian]

So having Saddam back would have been a preferable option with no ability fir people to vote or have a say in how they run their life's.

This was to be expected with the US withdraw. Certain groups want to create an image of Iraq in total chaos and non-functioning, which certain posters here eat up and rebroadcast that message, when it's not the case.

want to create?
Iraq is total chaos and non-functional since the USA brought peace and freedom to the country. it's almost as worse as afghanistan
there's no way to put that in a good light

 

[SmokyDave]

Isn't much of the violence due to religious differences?

I reckon they'll pre-date the US occupation.

 

[theignoramus]

its not 6 dead, its 24.

 

[theignoramus]

Isn't much of the violence due to religious differences?

I reckon they'll pre-date the US occupation.

there was never this level of sectarian bloodletting, ever, in the history of Iraq prior to the US invasion. Did the US uncork a fucking mess that Saddam, in large part created? Yes. Does that means it is less responsible for outbreak of sectarian carnage and bringing Al qaeda into Iraq? Hell no.

 

[texasairhead101]

following breaking news on twitter is jarring when i see headlines like this just about every other day. i know theres some gaffers in that part of the world and hope people can stay safe.

 

[SmokyDave]

there was never this level of sectarian bloodletting, ever, in the history of Iraq prior to the US invasion. Did the US uncork a fucking mess that Saddam, in large part created? Yes. Does that means it is less responsible for outbreak of sectarian carnage and bringing Al qaeda into Iraq? Hell no.

Presumably though, this was always going to happen after Saddam fell? Regardless of who toppled him, or how, was this a ticking time-bomb anyway?

How on earth can the US put the genie back into the bottle? Should they occupy Iraq indefinitely?

I see why the US gets responsibility for the current mess but I'm not sure that is fair.

 

[theignoramus]

Presumably though, this was always going to happen after Saddam fell? Regardless of who toppled him, or how, was this a ticking time-bomb anyway?

How on earth can the US put the genie back into the bottle? Should they occupy Iraq indefinitely?

I see why the US gets responsibility for the current mess but I'm not sure that is fair.

We dont know what would have happened if Saddam had been taken down internally. The Iraqis almost did that in 91 (and then US president George Bush sr. egged them into doing it) but back then, the US decided it preferred Saddam to the Shiites that would have replaced him, and allowed the rebellion to be crushed.
We do know that the US driven deBaathification process exacerbated the carnage and bloodletting.

De-Ba'athification (Arabic: اجتثاث حزب البعث&#8206 refers to a Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) policy outlined in CPA Order 1 which entered into force on 16 May 2003.[1] The policy’s goal was to remove the Ba'ath Party's influence in the new Iraqi political system.[1] To accomplish its goal, the policy declared that all public sector employees affiliated with the Ba'ath Party were to be removed from their positions and to be banned from any future employment in the public sector.[1] The policy was highly controversial among US academics, institutions, government, military, and international media and debate outlets.[2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9] The policy under the Coalition Provisional Authority was officially rescinded on 28 June 2004 as part of the transfer of sovereignty to the Iraqi Interim Government on 30 June 2004.[10] Critics of the policy, however, claim that the policy continued under the new authority of the Iraqi Interim Government, Governing Council, and later under the elected Iraqi Parliament.[11] Proponents of the policy contend that the policy effectively cleansed Iraqi society of Ba'athist influence, facilitating the creation of a democratic Iraqi government.[5][8] Critics argue that the policy was not only undemocratic, but also a significant factor in the deteriorating security situation throughout Iraq.[12][13][14][7][15]

 

[goomba]

Missionaccomplished.gif

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

want to create?
Iraq is total chaos and non-functional since the USA brought peace and freedom to the country. it's almost as worse as afghanistan
there's no way to put that in a good light

Here is more proof what I was talking about, your an example of someone buying the message and running with it.

Of course others here are just using it as an excuse to expound on their Anti-American views, they are the people who moan about democracy in Bahrain, but seem to imply Saddam Hussein was better for the people of Iraq.

 

[ruttyboy]

Here is more proof what I was talking about, your an example of someone buying the message and running with it.

Of course others here are just using it as an excuse to expound on their Anti-American views, they are the people who moan about democracy in Bahrain, but seem to imply Saddam Hussein was better for the people of Iraq.

Surely it's only proof of your theory if you are right in that the country isn't in chaos, which is totally up for debate despite your protestations to the contrary.

As for whether Saddam was better for the people, "At least the trains ran on time" etc..

 

[Fallout-NL]

So having Saddam back would have been a preferable option with no ability fir people to vote or have a say in how they run their life's.

This was to be expected with the US withdraw. Certain groups want to create an image of Iraq in total chaos and non-functioning, which certain posters here eat up and rebroadcast that message, when it's not the case.

Hehe, 'buying the message'. Looks like the only one buying anything is you, buying into that freedom and democracy nonsense.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

The sectarian tensions were always there in Iraq to begin with. It's just they just put a lid on it while Saddam and the Baath Party were in power. The only ones getting openly screwed back then were the Kurds.

All sorts of countries this happens when a power leaves, look at the ethnic violence in Nigeria when the British left as an example.

 

[OG Kush]

Civil war starts the day USA leave. Nice work America!

 

[Wazzim]

So having Saddam back would have been a preferable option with no ability fir people to vote or have a say in how they run their life's.

This was to be expected with the US withdraw. Certain groups want to create an image of Iraq in total chaos and non-functioning, which certain posters here eat up and rebroadcast that message, when it's not the case.

Come on

It's the most corrupt place on earth next to Afghanistan, another country who got taste of dat freedomz.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

Civil war starts the day USA leave. Nice work America!

It's not the USA's fault. They were just the deterrent to people being so brazen like this.

The violence is a result of political manuvering, after the Sunni vice president al-Hashemi had a warrant issued for his arrest.

You can't have it both ways. "US get out of Iraq, let them govern themselves!"

"Look what happened because you left, US!"

The asshole who did this were going to do it in one form or another.

 

[Casp0r]

... at least they're bombing each other ... rather than the USA ... right? ... mission accomplished ... right ... right?

 

[SneakyStephan]

So having Saddam back would have been a preferable option with no ability fir people to vote or have a say in how they run their life's.

This was to be expected with the US withdraw. Certain groups want to create an image of Iraq in total chaos and non-functioning, which certain posters here eat up and rebroadcast that message, when it's not the case.

You are misreading it...
114000 didn't die after the withdrawal, they died from the moment the US invaded until now, and a huge huge amount of those were killed by the US military. (the wikileaks article alone mentioned 24000 civilians murdered by US soldiers that weren't made public till then)


Iran next guys, gota continue with the culling of the brown people amiright...

 

[Fallout-NL]

Halliburton.

 

[Wazzim]

Halliburton.

Cheney (former CEO) got dat money in his pocket alright. All it costed was some civilian deaths, breaking of International law and a little bit of tax payers money.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

You are misreading it...
114000 didn't die after the withdrawal, they died from the moment the US invaded until now, and a huge huge amount of those were killed by the US military. (the wikileaks article alone mentioned 24000 civilians murdered by US soldiers that weren't made public till then)


Iran next guys, gota continue with the culling of the brown people amiright...

Maybe you should check your numbers again.

Iraqbodycounht.org's findings

Looks like Iraqi's are doing a fine job killing other Iraqi's as of late.

But, i wonder how many of Iraw's security forces aren't acting on behalf of the state as opposed to other agents.

 

[Wazzim]

Maybe you should check your numbers again.

Iraqbodycounht.org's findings

Looks like Iraqi's are doing a fine job killing other Iraqi's as of late.

But, i wonder how many of Iraw's security forces aren't acting on behalf of the state as opposed to other agents.

IBC’s figures are not ‘estimates’ but a record of actual, documented deaths.

This source was dismissed a long time ago Chi

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

This source was dismissed a long time ago Chi

Oh. Meh, I still think you need to make the distinction between Coalition forces and Iraqi security forces.

Because, I think Iraqi security forces are still doing a bang up job killing their own people.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Civil war starts the day USA leave. Nice work America!

we fuck in many ways in this saga

but its time for these babies to take responsibility, and stop their religious assholism

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

You are misreading it...
114000 didn't die after the withdrawal, they died from the moment the US invaded until now, and a huge huge amount of those were killed by the US military. (the wikileaks article alone mentioned 24000 civilians murdered by US soldiers that weren't made public till then)


Iran next guys, gota continue with the culling of the brown people amiright...

Murdered? Lol

 

[noah111]

Murdered? Lol

Isn't that what you call death of civilians? Or is it 'collateral damage'?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Isn't that what you call death of civilians? Or is it 'collateral damage'?

Killed

 

[Ken Masters]

So having Saddam back would have been a preferable option with no ability fir people to vote or have a say in how they run their life's.

This was to be expected with the US withdraw. Certain groups want to create an image of Iraq in total chaos and non-functioning, which certain posters here eat up and rebroadcast that message, when it's not the case.

Ask the people in Iraq if they prefer to vote for a broken government or being able to live their lives without having to worry about themselves and their family being killed everyday

 

[SmokyDave]

Isn't that what you call death of civilians? Or is it 'collateral damage'?

You would say 'killed' as murder requires 'malice aforethought' ie; the pre-meditated intent to kill that person. That's my non-lawyer understanding, anyway.

Now, you can argue that the US deliberately intend to wipe brown people off the face of the planet but A; you'd be nuts, and B; they'd have killed an awful lot more people if that was their intention.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Ask the people in Iraq if they prefer to vote for a broken government or being able to live their lives without having to worry about themselves and their family being killed everyday

So security over the freedom to vote and freedom to express themselves?

 

[Imbarkus]

You cannot introduce democracy to a people. This has been the arrogant flaw in our foreign policy for 60 years now. If the people do not rise up and overthrow their own dictator so that they feel they now own their country's government, any government you attempt to grant them is just another externally imposed condition.

By attempting to introduce democracy to other nations, we have actually set back the natural evolution of a suppressed people turning to it after they overthrow their despots.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Isn't that what you call death of civilians? Or is it 'collateral damage'?

Murder is a specific crime - causing the death of a person with "malice afterthought". Something can't be murder if it doesn't qualify as murder under the law, it's just "killing". The use of murder as an emotionally charged word to try and sway people just makes you look manipulative. It's killing, but most of the civilian deaths were probably not murder, regardless of how tragic they were.

 

[Fallout-NL]

Murder is a specific crime - causing the death of a person with "malice afterthought". Something can't be murder if it doesn't qualify as murder under the law, it's just "killing". The use of murder as an emotionally charged word to try and sway people just makes you look manipulative. It's killing, but most of the civilian deaths were probably not murder, regardless of how tragic they were.

Still, there are such things as 'war crimes'.

 

[el retorno]

You cannot introduce democracy to a people.

Japan, Much of Eastern Europe, A few african coutries, Turkey to some extent too but that was more imposed from the inside based on a western model.

I know what your saying though but your overall statement about not being able to import democracy isn´t really true. You can´t really impose in on a multiethnic contructed state like Iraq through the barrel of a gun. Though I do think in the long rune (20-30years) Iraq will be a much better country than under saddam.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

Still, there are such things as 'war crimes'.

You mean, like murder?

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Still, there are such things as 'war crimes'.

Is that in dispute?

 

[Fallout-NL]

You mean, like murder?

I think the main difference between murder and genocide is the number.

Is that in dispute?

No, but the way in which you're disagreeing with Sentry makes it sound a little bit like that. Though you're right of course if you're simply arguing semantics.

 

[Alucrid]

Still, there are such things as 'war crimes'.

Indeed, there are such things as 'war crimes.'

 

[theignoramus]

Oh. Meh, I still think you need to make the distinction between Coalition forces and Iraqi security forces.

Because, I think Iraqi security forces are still doing a bang up job killing their own people.

and Admiral Michael Mullen, conceded that DeBaathification fucked up the country ,fuelled sectarian tension, and fuelled the insurgency. It probably even provoked it. AND the invasion spawned Al qaeda in Iraq, which didnt exist under Saddam.

 

[[Nintex]]

You cannot introduce democracy to a people. This has been the arrogant flaw in our foreign policy for 60 years now. If the people do not rise up and overthrow their own dictator so that they feel they now own their country's government, any government you attempt to grant them is just another externally imposed condition.

By attempting to introduce democracy to other nations, we have actually set back the natural evolution of a suppressed people turning to it after they overthrow their despots.

You can but you need to show them that life indeed got better after the dictator was kicked out. That's the problem in Egypt, Iraq, Aghanistan and other places. For many citizens nothing improved. In that sense we got lucky with the Nazi's because A) Most of them shot themselves and B) the Wirschaftswunder happened. The same thing with Jeltsin and the Communists, people could go watch American movies, buy foreign clothing and got access to other luxuries. For Iraq it's all the same except they now also deal with Civil War and the country was bombed to shit. If Iraq turned into some second grade Qatar in terms of welfare, none of this would've happened.

 

[fabricated backlash]

So security over the freedom to vote and freedom to express themselves?

Patriot Act says hello.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

and Admiral Michael Mullen, conceded that DeBaathification fucked up the country ,fuelled sectarian tension, and fuelled the insurgency. It probably even provoked it. AND the invasion spawned Al qaeda in Iraq, which didnt exist under Saddam.

Which apparently bogged AQ down (unintentional honeypot) and began to erode their popular honeypot with the bombing of the Jordanian Hotel, massive civilian bombings, and use of foreigners.