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Larry Bird: "Don't put the white guy on me!"
- Thread starter Blackace
- Start date
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HalfPastNoon said:
Actually yes I'm going to laugh and shake my head at it. In some communities the youth leagues and some cooperating sporting stores actually allow kids to trade up their equipment as they move through the various leagues.... but hey in the end what do I care? My opinion is that your choice of wording was poor as f'n shit.
HalfPastNoon said:
hockey isn't a sport that even a lot of white people are able to afford....much less black people.
Excuse me I have to turn in so I can be up early to collect my WIC check tomorrow,I gotta make sure I beat the Indian and Mexican who sometimes beat me to the front of the line, I'll probably catch a Middle Eastern driven Taxi to the office.
Mermandala
Member
Shouta said:
Sure the equipment is cheap, but only rich kids can afford the food.
The "don't put a white guy on me" is understanable, IMO. He felt that coaches would say "ok, he's white, our white guy can probably guard him" and Bird resented that. What's also interesting is that he never associated himself as the white middle class' player, because that is not the background he was brought up in (he was very, very poor).
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
I am not saying that Larry was out of line... but think about it if had MJ said the exact same thing... hahaha..
"English don't suck at rugby last I checked. (Which was the world cup)"
All I can say about that is.... when you wish...upooooon a star it no matters who you aaaaarrrreee...when you wish upon a star your dreams come true....!
Happens way too far and inbetween to consider the English to be a "Rugby force"... if they make a run again in the next world cup I will give them their props... And that still doesn't explain soccer or cricket... =P
(Besides I was just trying to make a point... someone said "a white made basketball" like just because he made it, white players are automatically good at the game)
"English don't suck at rugby last I checked. (Which was the world cup)"
All I can say about that is.... when you wish...upooooon a star it no matters who you aaaaarrrreee...when you wish upon a star your dreams come true....!
Happens way too far and inbetween to consider the English to be a "Rugby force"... if they make a run again in the next world cup I will give them their props... And that still doesn't explain soccer or cricket... =P
(Besides I was just trying to make a point... someone said "a white made basketball" like just because he made it, white players are automatically good at the game)
HalfPastNoon said:
but the most amusing thing was that you ended your post with, "don't pigeonhole me."
Grant Fuhr baby!
Hockey not exciting? Tv viewers can't even follow the puck. Hockey's my elitist sport that I follow. Like most americans who follow soccer. "Oh you don't like hockey? That's cause you don't know shit about it."
Too bad Moslen Ice is no longer the official beverage of the NHL.
Teknopathetic
Member
"You're talking about Iginla, but he's got just enough white in him for the man to take credit!"
The white man would take credit if he was fucking charcoal.
The white man would take credit if he was fucking charcoal.
DarienA said:
ABC/ESPN handle hockey broadcasts in the US for now. ESPN had that awful "NHL, made in America" ad campaign recently.
If i remember right, Fox abandoned that puck highlight thing while they still were doing NHL... I thought it was cool, but most people hated it I guess.
Obviously there will be major spin on Bird's comments in the next couple of days, but in a way, I hope that he doesn't say anything else and just drops the issue...because I think I understand where he's coming from in a weird sort of way.
First of all, basketball is not a black man's game -- it's a POOR man's game for the most part. There are exceptions, of course, but I think you'll find that many of the best who ever played came from VERY humble backgrounds. (If you want to equate "black" with "poor," that's your business, but I'd start looking for proof if I were you.)
Second, I can't remember Bird EVER labeling himself as a "white" player, and I remember most of Bird's playing days. Color seemed incidental to him -- he just wanted to be the best, period. Anyone who thinks he's a racist ought to look at the people he passed to, since the only "colors" Bird seemed to know were "open" and "covered." I DO remember him as being consistently blunt, though, and his current remarks fit that mold quite well. He speaks rarely, but always says what's on his mind.
As a basketball player myself (and a pathetically BAD one), I understand what the phrase "white guy" means. If you're labeled a "white guy," it means that you're a scrub -- no athletic talent, no court IQ, struggling for everything you get. I've heard people of all races taunted on the courts with "you play like a white guy." I've also NEVER heard anyone call a white guy a "white guy" when he's dropping points on them from everywhere and balling just as hard as anyone on the court. It's the stereotype that happens to have a race descriptor in the name.
So, when Bird says that he's offended that anyone would put a "white guy" on him, I understand what he means. He means, "How DARE you think that some scrub is going to do a damn thing to stop me." He means, "Bring your best, and I'm going to be better." Nothing racist in that at all -- just the ego of a supreme competitor talking.
Last point, and then I'll shut up on this: Mentioning racial differences is NOT the same as being racist. Living out here in Los Angeles, I know about the crowds that came to Dodger Stadium when Chan Ho Park was new to the league. The stands were FULL of Koreans, happy that "one of their own" was finally in the big leagues. (Nomo brought in the same kinds of crowds.) Did the Dodgers market the hell out of that interest? You bet! I wasn't here during Fernandomania, but I'd bet you anything that they were marketing like crazy (and selling tickets like crazy) to the Latino segment. Bird is probably dead-on -- the powers that be would love to have a star to market to the "white folks." But there's nothing racist about that statement. Dollars are all green, after all.
P.S. I'm dying to hear Loki's take on all this...where IS that guy?
First of all, basketball is not a black man's game -- it's a POOR man's game for the most part. There are exceptions, of course, but I think you'll find that many of the best who ever played came from VERY humble backgrounds. (If you want to equate "black" with "poor," that's your business, but I'd start looking for proof if I were you.)
Second, I can't remember Bird EVER labeling himself as a "white" player, and I remember most of Bird's playing days. Color seemed incidental to him -- he just wanted to be the best, period. Anyone who thinks he's a racist ought to look at the people he passed to, since the only "colors" Bird seemed to know were "open" and "covered." I DO remember him as being consistently blunt, though, and his current remarks fit that mold quite well. He speaks rarely, but always says what's on his mind.
As a basketball player myself (and a pathetically BAD one), I understand what the phrase "white guy" means. If you're labeled a "white guy," it means that you're a scrub -- no athletic talent, no court IQ, struggling for everything you get. I've heard people of all races taunted on the courts with "you play like a white guy." I've also NEVER heard anyone call a white guy a "white guy" when he's dropping points on them from everywhere and balling just as hard as anyone on the court. It's the stereotype that happens to have a race descriptor in the name.
So, when Bird says that he's offended that anyone would put a "white guy" on him, I understand what he means. He means, "How DARE you think that some scrub is going to do a damn thing to stop me." He means, "Bring your best, and I'm going to be better." Nothing racist in that at all -- just the ego of a supreme competitor talking.
Last point, and then I'll shut up on this: Mentioning racial differences is NOT the same as being racist. Living out here in Los Angeles, I know about the crowds that came to Dodger Stadium when Chan Ho Park was new to the league. The stands were FULL of Koreans, happy that "one of their own" was finally in the big leagues. (Nomo brought in the same kinds of crowds.) Did the Dodgers market the hell out of that interest? You bet! I wasn't here during Fernandomania, but I'd bet you anything that they were marketing like crazy (and selling tickets like crazy) to the Latino segment. Bird is probably dead-on -- the powers that be would love to have a star to market to the "white folks." But there's nothing racist about that statement. Dollars are all green, after all.
P.S. I'm dying to hear Loki's take on all this...where IS that guy?
-jinx- said:
So if you're a good basketball player what do people you play with say... you play like a black guy? IMO your argument would have SO much more weight if you left out the sentence I've bolded. I can't tell you how many times during my balling years I met on the local court and talked to friends who played more than I did who would tell me about white guys who could play ball.. and yes... they would describe the person as a white guy... which is what he was.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
DarienA said:
I am Puertorican, raised in the South Bronx, but I'm light skinned and would always be asked if I was a white boy growing up but whenever ppl saw me play for the 1st time (and this is after about 90% of them automatically assumed I was trash because I looked like a white boy, btw) they'd always be shocked that I had skills. My nick on the block? Larry Bird.
I think the style of your play dictates what ppl say about you on the court, not your color. At least on the playgrounds.
Teknopathetic
Member
Blackace: I don't think it's so much their "Best" player, as much as someone who's well regarded and respected. Not some 3rd string bencher while [insert leading jersey salesman here] is getting a Dasani break and a massage.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Tre said:
I can agree with that... but a white starter is not that...and he just said I hated when they put the white guy on me...
Now I don't think he was way out of line... but I am just trying to paint a full picture here.. I see a lot of people telling what he said... when he said don't put a white guy on me
The way I've always heard it said is, "He plays pretty damn good for a white guy," or, "So-and-so is a player...AND he's white!" The thing is, BOTH of those statements imply that "white guys" can't play.DarienA said:
And yeah, I have heard a good white player asked if he was "part black."
I said that I think I UNDERSTAND what he said. Assuming that I'm right (which of course HAS to be an assumption -- who could possibly know definitively what was meant except for Larry himself?), I'm not defending HOW the statement was made, since the words he chose distort the meaning. You're absolutely right -- the sentence you suggest would have been a much better choice. "It offended me when other teams stuck their bench-warming, no-skills scrubs to hang on me and pick up cheap fouls." Hey, sounds like what Shaq ought to say...Blackace said:
-jinx- said:P.S. I'm dying to hear Loki's take on all this...where IS that guy?
Why would you expect him? He's a Jordan fan, not a basketball fan.
There was nothing wrong with what Bird said. He spoke the truth according to him. Sports was MUCH more interesting when people spoke their mind and the PC bullshit was left to talk radio and side columns.
Blackace said:
Try to start shit much? Larry didn't say that for very obvious reasons. It's because the best black player was NOT the white guy stuck on Larry. Larry was saying that the white guy in the late 80's WASN'T the best defender on the team, but sometimes that was who guarded Larry. The 'white guy' who defended Larry WASN'T their best defender, and that was exactly Larry's point. Damn get a clue.
Evolution VIII
Banned
Isn't there a hockey league up in Harlem? I don't think it is terribly expensive to get started up in hockey at all. Pads, skates and equipment can be had very cheaply these days, and if the league dishes out for them it can be a one time expense that can be written off as a tax credit. Perhaps the most difficult training in hockey would be learning how to skate. Outside of that, learning the game of hockey with a good coach would be simple (I'm assuming).
Also, playing street hockey would give a great edge to beginning ice hockey players. If you buy a hockey stick, rollerblades, pads, and a puck you have pretty much the same thing. Hockey on a hard court and hockey on an ice rink are substitutable: you'll probably be a little faster on ice, but you still need to stop and move and dribble all the same.
Also, playing street hockey would give a great edge to beginning ice hockey players. If you buy a hockey stick, rollerblades, pads, and a puck you have pretty much the same thing. Hockey on a hard court and hockey on an ice rink are substitutable: you'll probably be a little faster on ice, but you still need to stop and move and dribble all the same.
Ninja Scooter
Member
how about this one:
someone says a sport needs more black head coaches=progress
someone says a sport needs more white players=ignorance
someone says a sport needs more black head coaches=progress
someone says a sport needs more white players=ignorance
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
DJ_Tet said:
Get a clue? the best player doesn't always cover the best player to start with... Magic hardly ever covered Larry, MJ didn't also.. A starting PF/SF had to cover him...and if he was white then he was white...He could have easily said..."I wanted the best player on me in every game!" So no matter what color he was...
DJ_Tet said:
Dude, you seriously need to cut that out. Yeah, I'm a (more than) vocal Jordan fanatic, but to say I'm not a fan of basketball in general? Whatever. The game means more to me than it EVER will to you, and I've devoted dozens of thousands of hours to playing and practicing it. So yeah, I'm not a fan. Me and the guys talk about games all the time-- the only reason Jordan comes up a lot is because of all the constant "Kobe > MJ" nonsense that those other guys always bring up. But whatever, believe what you like.
As for Bird's comments, I must admit that, like most people, I was a bit taken aback when I first heard them; even though you knew what he was saying, it was probably-- nay, definitely-- something that he should've phrased differently. I just don't think it was RACIST, necessarily, and so I really don't have much to say. You understand what he's saying, obviously; though we've all known phenomenal white ballplayers, there are a much smaller proportion of them as compared to blacks. Some of that is due to culture, and some to time and dedication (which also somewhat results from culture). But it's a fact. That doesn't mean that white guys can't play-- in fact, I'd probably murder most anyone here, white or black, on the basketball court (in all modesty
). All it means is that there is a prevalent attitude and image associated with the game, for better or worse. And in most cases, such as this one, I tend to view it as benign, because nobody's being hostile or harboring il-will in any way. If a white guy can play, he'll get recognized for it the same as a black guy will. Obviously, by virtue of his own racial makeup, Larry Bird knows about this, because he himself earned the highest accolades on the basketball court as a white player.So I don't see it as much of an issue at all, and, as a result, I haven't given it much thought. As for saying that it's a "black man's game", well, that's largely true as well merely because of the preponderance of black players along with how much emphasis it's given in the black community. As an example:
I could've played division 1 college basketball, easily. I was never in a high school program, as my HS didn't have any sports and I played for my own enjoyment mostly; in the summers, however, I would regularly play with division 1 players and more than hold my own (from age 18-22). I always played for my own enjoyment, though, and never wanted to be bothered with practices and having to keep to somebody else's schedule. In addition, I knew that I'd never go pro, as I'm not quite THAT good.
My father was the starting point guard (at age 17, he entered college at 16) for the Southampton (LIU) team that won the Northeast Regional NCAA Div.II Championship in 1972 and went on to the national championship game that year, losing to a Tennessee St. team that had two eventual NBA players; he had offers to play in the CBA, professional leagues overseas and in South America etc. (one of the guys on his team, who wasn't as good as my father, had a hugely successful pro career in Sweden or Germany or some such and was viewed as the best player ever in that country up until that time). So my dad had his opportunities-- all he ever wanted to do in life was play pro ball, and everyone told him he could do it (too short for the NBA though at 5'10"). But he'd always be at Rucker Park here in NY in the summers, and was usually the only white player there. Eventually, my mother wanted to settle down, however, and my father gave up those dreams he had held his entire life. These are not tall tales (you can actually verify the stuff about my dad online).The point of this aside is that although guys like myself and my father had a chance to pursue basketball at higher levels (himself in pro leagues and me in college), other concerns took priority for whatever reasons and kept us from those things, as I'm sure it does to hundreds of other people. So, more than anything, I think you can say that the quality of singlemindedness helps players get to that next level, and that is something which cultural and social influences play a big role in developing. My father wasn't devastated (though I have my doubts-- he still keeps the NCAA medals on his desk) because he had a lot of stuff to fall back on-- he graduated top of his class in college as well. As for myself, I always knew in the back of my mind that I wouldn't go pro (since my dad didn't, and I always knew he was better than me technically), and so I knew I'd have to make a life for myself some other way. But for a lot of these talented kids, all they're fed growing up is that it's the ball way or no way. For those who DO end up making it, this can be viewed in retrospect as a positive, because it fosters determination and the singlemindedness needed to achieve one's goals that I spoke of. But for the vast majority of players, who don't make it, this can be seen as detrimental to their growth in other areas and leads to "putting all their eggs in one basket".
Although socioeconomic factors undoubtedly play a big role in terms of why there are so many more black players in the high school, college, and professional ranks, there is also a physical aspect-- namely, the fact that blacks tend to be faster and can jump higher than whites. The differences are minute when dealing with large samples, but when you're talking about athletes at the highest level, it makes all the difference in the world. Myself, I'm very fast-- I've never met anyone quicker on the basketball court that I've played; I'm much quicker in all respects than my father ever was. I also have ridiculous "hang time", much more than most black players I've played with or against. But I don't have a 42+ inch vertical. To be honest with you, some obviously insane voice in the back of my head says that if I did, I'd be in the NBA right now. But then I laugh at how stupid I sound, because I never really learned how to play the game the way those guys did-- a structured, disciplined game, which is something you learn coming up playing in HS and college programs, which I never did (and which is why my father is a better basketball player than I'll ever be). I'm just a demon on the court is all.
But there are hundreds of guys just like me and better on playgrounds across the country. So I suppose my point (no, the point wasn't to brag
) is that yeah, you can call basketball a "black man's game", but it doesn't do anyone any good to phrase it that way; neither, however, do I believe it to be racist-- in fact, I feel it is a factual statement for the very reasons I've elaborated upon above. So cut Larry some slack.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
I agree with almost everything you say for the most part, and just to let you know I was also one of the players to fall short on their hoop dreams. I was an all state player freshman player who was contacted by many DivI schools until I broke my ankle. I made a comeback and broke my other ankle ending all of my dreams, and allowed me to find another calling in life.
However, while I understand some of things that Bird said... and understand what they could mean... I just don't think really like his kind of double talk. "We need more white superstars" Good point... "I hated when a white guy was put on me, because it was an insult to my game." WTF? I know, I know he wanted to play the best, and beat the best. But you know if Jordan, or God forbid Sir Charles, said something like that it would be time to lynch those fools! I mean Bird was one of the greatest of all times... if he would have said "I hate when they put a scrub on me!" Cause I am sure he talked just as much crap to the X-man as he did to Thunder Dan...
However, while I understand some of things that Bird said... and understand what they could mean... I just don't think really like his kind of double talk. "We need more white superstars" Good point... "I hated when a white guy was put on me, because it was an insult to my game." WTF? I know, I know he wanted to play the best, and beat the best. But you know if Jordan, or God forbid Sir Charles, said something like that it would be time to lynch those fools! I mean Bird was one of the greatest of all times... if he would have said "I hate when they put a scrub on me!" Cause I am sure he talked just as much crap to the X-man as he did to Thunder Dan...
Blackace said:
Whoa, that sucks dude. I've had some serious ankle injuries over the years, but never a break or permanent ligament damage. It must hurt like hell to give up those dreams. Are you still able to play recreationally? Because that's what I often go crazy thinking about-- just NOT being able (or having the time) to play basketball anymore, even once a week or once every two weeks (though I've gone for 3-6 month stretches without playing); it's incredibly important to me in terms of relieving stress and satisfying my competitive instinct. What's crazy with my dad is that, after doing nothing BUT play ball his entire life and having those dreams, he not only gave up the dreams when he married my mother, but he just stopped playing basketball PERIOD, which is weird. He didn't play again until an adult's league when he was like 39.
Btw, I know this is gonna sound way out there, because I'm always the last to know
, but aren't you Kevin Cheung (former GA staffer)? I always thought you were for some reason. I just ask because it'd unusual to see an Asian basketball player who was THAT good (being an all-state, D1 caliber player, that is)-- it'd be the first time I've ever seen it, at least. You want your racism, there you go. As for Bird, yeah, it was probably something that he thinks better of saying now, after the fact. Some people just aren't tactful or artful conversationalists, what can you say?
I just don't think he harbors any true racist sentiment is all-- I was never arguing that he shouldn't have said what he did. - Status