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Legalities of Downloading TV
- Thread starter Morts
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Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
what about for premium stations that dont have commercials? for instance, i pay for HBO.. but when i miss an episode of carnivale, i download it so that i wont fall behind. that shouldnt be illegal.. right? isnt it like tivo-ing the show or recording it on a tape?
tv networks should really start hosting their own shows on bt .. for premium stations, they could give out passwords to their clients.. but stations like abc, cbs, etc. could host their shows (w/ commercials intact) .. they'd also be able to monitor a shows popularity much better..
tv networks should really start hosting their own shows on bt .. for premium stations, they could give out passwords to their clients.. but stations like abc, cbs, etc. could host their shows (w/ commercials intact) .. they'd also be able to monitor a shows popularity much better..
yes, but HBO has HBO on demand that they make about 5 bucks more a month for.. that kind of stuff is why they dont want you D-ling shows. Cable is the same way (paying your cable bill gives them money + ads)...
not to say I havent done it.. but I see the reasons why they wouldnt.
not to say I havent done it.. but I see the reasons why they wouldnt.
You have absolutely no rights to d/l anything u don't pay for or have express permission to use.
The producers, tv stations etc don't owe u anything, they are providing u with entertainment which is expensive to produce (tv runs to about $200,000/hr on up for production costs something huge like Friends is in the millions per hr). Someone has to pay, generally that is u through either subscription or ads.
If it keeps going like this nothing will be produced becasue it won't be worth doing it. Then i can only imagine the whining.
And no it isn't like taping the show, someone is illegally distributing material they have no rights to and you are illegally d/ling it. Same as theft folks, if u know something is stolen and u wilfully take possesion of it it's a crime.
The producers, tv stations etc don't owe u anything, they are providing u with entertainment which is expensive to produce (tv runs to about $200,000/hr on up for production costs something huge like Friends is in the millions per hr). Someone has to pay, generally that is u through either subscription or ads.
If it keeps going like this nothing will be produced becasue it won't be worth doing it. Then i can only imagine the whining.
And no it isn't like taping the show, someone is illegally distributing material they have no rights to and you are illegally d/ling it. Same as theft folks, if u know something is stolen and u wilfully take possesion of it it's a crime.
seanoff said:
This is BS. The TV industry makes TONS of money, and a few people downloading a show after it was on TV is not going to cause them to stop making new TV shows, and Im pretty sure you knew that was BS when you typed it..
I agree it is theft to a certain degree... especially when they sell DVD's of the shows and reruns and whatnot.. but I would say morally speaking, its not as bad as stealing music or movies.. especially if its a show that is broadcast over public air waives..
People who aren't Nielsen viewers don't affect the ratings of a television show. As long as they don't download, the ratings and therefore the ad money doesn't go down. That is why a show like Lost can have such high ratings and at the same time be one of the most downloaded shows. While morally bad, I feel it isn't as bad as movies and music, which rely exclusivly on sales for cash flow.
Morts said:
Interesting question (this is partly the basis for one of my term papers). It is legal to record television programs (VCR's are still around, aren't they?) and to use for private use. I cannot recall, however, if it is legal to record them and distribute them (not for profit). I can say with certainty that recording them and selling them is illegal.
So, it's a grey area.
It's(recording the television programs) is protected under the fair use clause of Copyright laws in the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
Aaaannnndddd the Supreme Court case http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._v._Universal_City_Studios
Particle Physicist
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seanoff said:
i pay for hbo. and i only use the episode for my own viewing pleasure. i dont broadcast it sell it or show it in a public location.
SKluck said:
Are you talking about a normal broadcast TV TiVo or a DirecTiVo, 'cause you can get one of those for $100 now and $5 a month for the service. I don't even think the other TiVo would require 'sinking $500'. You can set it up as basically a digitized manual VCR if you don't feel like paying for the service.
We should have EVERY right. We are forced to watch ads that take away from our time each day. Why? Because shows need money right?
Well we fucking pay for that too. Anytime you go out and buy something with a brand name, you're paying for those ads.
So in effect, you pay to waste your time watching ads because they work on weak people. There has not been a commercial on TV that has ever created incentive for me to buy anything. Ads are dumb, and deceiving. Car ads are a joke "BUY THIS NOW! FACT! SUCH AND SUCH! FACT!" BUY VIAGRA. Political ads do almost nothing to sway voters opinions. Food commercials work only on fatties.
tedtropy said:
DirecTivo rocks from what I hear, but that requires shelling out upteen dollars a month to get DirecTV in the first place. Nuh uh.
Tivo 2 units are not functional without a subscription, and the lifetime costs what.. $300 now? No thanks. There is a nice Toshiba DVD player/Basic Tivo that Bestbuy has for like $200 after rebates or some such from time to time, but I figure why bother. So much easier just downloading them in 40 minute clips, no dealing with the commercials, saves me the hassle of ff.
It's nice to be able to directly upload them to my Axim too
.Once again, you have to draw a distinction between what is legal, and what OUGHT to be legal. Downloading a TV show is copyright infringement -- you do not have a license to make a copy of the show. This is different from the fair use you get when, say, buying a DVD, because the purchase of the DVD grants you the license to make copies for your own personal use.Morts said:
With all that being said, this is yet another CLEAR example of how utterly stupid our copyright laws are.
oooohhh taking the opposite view is fun.
The worry is that like music it will explode and less people will watch, ad revenue falls etc and we'll end up watching repeats of Family Ties ad infinitum. Try getting a record contract with a band that's slightly off centre. The record companies won't do it. They sell 50000 cds and have the song illegally downloaded 300000 times and they lose money. So we end up with the current shit state with the charts inhabitated by shit and very little else out there and fuck all thats different.
The other thing is that with TV the ads will become part of the show. So on Lost3 they'll just happen to crash into a coca-cola factory and live off that and the chocolate bar factory next door and half the dialogue will be "oohh, i could so do with a coke", actor 2 "yeah i love coke but i need to use washing powder a to get it out" actor 3 "mmmmmm COKE" get attacked by monster carrying washing powder a sign. no thanks
The worry is that like music it will explode and less people will watch, ad revenue falls etc and we'll end up watching repeats of Family Ties ad infinitum. Try getting a record contract with a band that's slightly off centre. The record companies won't do it. They sell 50000 cds and have the song illegally downloaded 300000 times and they lose money. So we end up with the current shit state with the charts inhabitated by shit and very little else out there and fuck all thats different.
The other thing is that with TV the ads will become part of the show. So on Lost3 they'll just happen to crash into a coca-cola factory and live off that and the chocolate bar factory next door and half the dialogue will be "oohh, i could so do with a coke", actor 2 "yeah i love coke but i need to use washing powder a to get it out" actor 3 "mmmmmm COKE" get attacked by monster carrying washing powder a sign. no thanks
seanoff said:oooohhh taking the opposite view is fun.
The worry is that like music it will explode and less people will watch, ad revenue falls etc and we'll end up watching repeats of Family Ties ad infinitum. Try getting a record contract with a band that's slightly off centre. The record companies won't do it. They sell 50000 cds and have the song illegally downloaded 300000 times and they lose money. So we end up with the current shit state with the charts inhabitated by shit and very little else out there and fuck all thats different.
The other thing is that with TV the ads will become part of the show. So on Lost3 they'll just happen to crash into a coca-cola factory and live off that and the chocolate bar factory next door and half the dialogue will be "oohh, i could so do with a coke", actor 2 "yeah i love coke but i need to use washing powder a to get it out" actor 3 "mmmmmm COKE" get attacked by monster carrying washing powder a sign. no thanks
This entire argument is a fallacy. "Slippery slope" I think the fallacy is called.
If you have access to the channel and program that you want to watch (eg subscribe to HBO and want carnivale), then you should be able to get access to that if you miss it. Tivo and HDD recorders are computers effectively.
BUT - if you download that show from BT, that will be an illegal source. So its an odd area.
If you don't have access to the show normally, you should not be able to download it. You are breaking the law, breaching copyright, and potentially damaging the ability of the show's makers to sell the rights to your country.
BUT - if you download that show from BT, that will be an illegal source. So its an odd area.
If you don't have access to the show normally, you should not be able to download it. You are breaking the law, breaching copyright, and potentially damaging the ability of the show's makers to sell the rights to your country.
ok, a couple of things here...
First is fair use. it says that it is legal to use/watch copies of shows under varying factors. I won't go into them here but basically downloading a show from network broadcast is a VERY slipper slope for both parties. It falls into a huge grey area that from some points of view could be considered illegal but from other poinhts of view could be considered legal. you have a right to make a private recording. You legally DON'T have a right to pass that recording onto a friend, but at the same time you will NEVER be arrested for doing so.
If you record ER and post it to the internet, it is the equivalent to passing it to a friend just on a much wider scale. The problem here is that they can't charge you with copying it, and they really can't charge someone else in the US from downloading and watching it as long as that person has that OTA network in their area, because they DO have a right to free TV in that respect (believe it or not, we as Americans actually DO have a right to free TV).
As to the person who got in trouble for downloading Dead Like Me, we DON'T have a right to pay-tv. You are supposed to pay showtime their $5-10/month to get their service and watch their shows.
So, the bottom line is this. Posting shows to the internet for the most part is wrong.. however national networks will have a hard time curbing those shows being posted because as Americans we ARE entitled to watch them for free (not getting into the advertising debate). However, shows that air on cable or premium channels we are NOT entitled to for free, and will probably be cracked down on more and more.
Now for the network end of the story. They obviously pay huge money to put these shows up. While we are entitled to watch any show they put on the air for free, they still have to make money to pay for these shows which is done through advertising. If ratings go down on OTA broadcast shows, and advertiser dollars drop, it is CERTAINLY possible for the network to pull the show from OTA broadcast TV and put it on one of their cable/premium channels (remember, all of the OTA broadcasters have cable and/or premium channels as well).
So it is up to you. Eventually cable/premium TV will be harder to come by on the net. (on the other hand, I predict eventually OTA broadcast TV will eventually become EASIER to get on the net, probably from the network itself in a DRM wrapped ad included package). As for OTA shows, if you keep downloading them and ratings keep dropping, I would imagine those shows will then go to cable channels and thus fall into the harder to come by on the net.
just my two cents.
First is fair use. it says that it is legal to use/watch copies of shows under varying factors. I won't go into them here but basically downloading a show from network broadcast is a VERY slipper slope for both parties. It falls into a huge grey area that from some points of view could be considered illegal but from other poinhts of view could be considered legal. you have a right to make a private recording. You legally DON'T have a right to pass that recording onto a friend, but at the same time you will NEVER be arrested for doing so.
If you record ER and post it to the internet, it is the equivalent to passing it to a friend just on a much wider scale. The problem here is that they can't charge you with copying it, and they really can't charge someone else in the US from downloading and watching it as long as that person has that OTA network in their area, because they DO have a right to free TV in that respect (believe it or not, we as Americans actually DO have a right to free TV).
As to the person who got in trouble for downloading Dead Like Me, we DON'T have a right to pay-tv. You are supposed to pay showtime their $5-10/month to get their service and watch their shows.
So, the bottom line is this. Posting shows to the internet for the most part is wrong.. however national networks will have a hard time curbing those shows being posted because as Americans we ARE entitled to watch them for free (not getting into the advertising debate). However, shows that air on cable or premium channels we are NOT entitled to for free, and will probably be cracked down on more and more.
Now for the network end of the story. They obviously pay huge money to put these shows up. While we are entitled to watch any show they put on the air for free, they still have to make money to pay for these shows which is done through advertising. If ratings go down on OTA broadcast shows, and advertiser dollars drop, it is CERTAINLY possible for the network to pull the show from OTA broadcast TV and put it on one of their cable/premium channels (remember, all of the OTA broadcasters have cable and/or premium channels as well).
So it is up to you. Eventually cable/premium TV will be harder to come by on the net. (on the other hand, I predict eventually OTA broadcast TV will eventually become EASIER to get on the net, probably from the network itself in a DRM wrapped ad included package). As for OTA shows, if you keep downloading them and ratings keep dropping, I would imagine those shows will then go to cable channels and thus fall into the harder to come by on the net.
just my two cents.
Morts said:
If someone is busted for keeping a run of the West Wing on their PC, it's their own fault. It's not as if it's unavailable to buy on DVD. I download TV shows, watch them and erase them, I'm not interested in keeping something for longer that it might be useful.
I'm in Switzerland, and the sort of shows I want to watch(Arrested Development or Lost as examples) aren't showing here, and aren't likely to at any point soon. I also have a Sky Digital box for picking up Satellite broadcasts aimed at the UK and I daresay that's illegal if you want to split hairs, but it's either than or I have to watch Dad's Army every night.
SKluck said:DirecTivo rocks from what I hear, but that requires shelling out upteen dollars a month to get DirecTV in the first place. Nuh uh.
Tivo 2 units are not functional without a subscription, and the lifetime costs what.. $300 now? No thanks. There is a nice Toshiba DVD player/Basic Tivo that Bestbuy has for like $200 after rebates or some such from time to time, but I figure why bother. So much easier just downloading them in 40 minute clips, no dealing with the commercials, saves me the hassle of ff.
It's nice to be able to directly upload them to my Axim too
DirecTiVo is godly - they own my balls and I can't imagine myself ever going back to just a normal receiver. I get a warm fuzzy feeling at work knowing that all the programs I want to watch are neatly queued up and waiting for me and my post-work TV watching binge.
directivo is like sex with a supermodel followed up with a good cigar and a smokey single malt scotch...
seriously, it's that good. though you are correct in that it requires bare minimum a ~$40/month subscription to DirecTV plus the $5/month DVR fee (though which covers ALL DVRs you own).
But $45/month for sex with a supermodel and a great cigar and single malt scotch? worth it.
seriously, it's that good. though you are correct in that it requires bare minimum a ~$40/month subscription to DirecTV plus the $5/month DVR fee (though which covers ALL DVRs you own).
But $45/month for sex with a supermodel and a great cigar and single malt scotch? worth it.
seanoff said:
NO rights, eh mate? What of all those vulnerable wlans? If I can D/L on my laptop off some camera-less building's vulnerable wlan, WHOSE TO STOP ME? If THEY'RE POWERLESS to do ANYTHING ABOUT IT, POWERLESS to stop me, then I've ALL THE RIGHT IN THE WORLD. For it's strength that backs-up the laws, and those who're STRONGER can easily break them and live by their own rules, this the law of the world.
There are many who willingfully create free content for others(bloggers/many fanfics for example)...
A crime in the eyes of your country maybe. Though it's difficult to say this from an outside perspective with regards to the copying of ideas(provided you still attribute credit to its original discoverers), ideas are things waiting to be discovered if one does not another will, credit is due to the original discoverer, but yet he should know that these ideas were always there just waiting to be found.
As for the importance of the legalities of men, it's of trivial importance, for it is those who wield the power that in the end make the final laws and upheld them. And if you've the connections or the means either to go beyond sight or of deterrence, so as to bend or brake a particular law without the POSSIBILITY of any sort of punishment, then it is that you're BEYOND that law, your personal laws supersede it.
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DonasaurusRex
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I guess its illegal because its being distributed not recorded personally. So obviously Tivo is ok but sharing over a network isnt ok. Its just really dumb to me though especially if its a show thats on regular tv, not even cable. Perhaps cable tv companies have an argument because you have to pay to view their networks. But other than that, hows it different from borrowing a friends vhs recordings of a certain series? In essence it really isnt , just another example of the law going overboard.
D'ultimate
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How about these OTA channels don't pay their stars insane amount of money per episode. I mean, people are saying how much it costs to produce and distribute these shows but WTF is some of these large sums of money going to?
The percentage of people that DL is minute in comparison to the amount of people that do view these programs so I doubt that it will have an effect anytime soon. But, if it does, I think these big execs should be smart enough to figure in the cost in the packaging. And not by hiring BS lawyers to fight a battle they're not going to win either.
The percentage of people that DL is minute in comparison to the amount of people that do view these programs so I doubt that it will have an effect anytime soon. But, if it does, I think these big execs should be smart enough to figure in the cost in the packaging. And not by hiring BS lawyers to fight a battle they're not going to win either.
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