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[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

Lords of the Fallen faces a considerable challenge. In a post Dark Souls world, where the soulslike has become a well-charted and ever extensive genre unto itself, how do you make a dark RPG game stand out? FromSoftware has delivered over and over again, starting with Demon’s Souls, then the Dark Souls trilogy, Bloodborne, Sekiro, and most recently Elden Ring. Throw Nioh, The Surge, Blasphemous, Wo Long, and dozens of others into the mix, and you’ve got a potentially saturated buyer’s market, where any new soulslike might struggle for attention. But CI Games, creators of Lords of the Fallen, also see value in the long-reaching legacy of FromSoftware’s original opus. Speaking exclusively to PCGamesN, ahead of the Lords of the Fallen release date, creative director Cezar Virtuso and art director Alexandre Chaudret discuss the thrilling challenge of making a modern soulslike.

A remake, reboot, and reimagining of the 2014 original, Lords of the Fallen takes place between two dark fantasy worlds, Axiom and Umbral. Equipped with a lantern, while you navigate the living world of the Axiom, you can peer into the dead world of the Umbral, and your actions in one will affect the nature and structure of the other. In the era of the soulslike, this is one way that CI Games intends to stand out.

“We’re not going to hide that we have common ground,” Chaudret tells PCGamesN amid the chaos of Gamescom. “It’s the same genre. Call it soulslike, or animation-driving fighting, or dark fantasy RPG, we know we have common ground. I think what makes us different is our world. It’s much more allegorical. You go from a Gothic fantasy to something much more cosmic horror, almost Giger-esque with bones, giant statues, skeletons moulded together. It’s a question of resonance. You need to touch the very soul of people and go into deep thematics, not just the surface of fantasy like shiny armor and dragons.

“All of the armor is rusted,” Chaudret continues, “so it shows I didn’t have time to brush them – I had to fight again and again. Why is that guy crying? Why is this guy, who represents all the golden hope I had in fantasy stories when I was a kid, sad and with no more hope? It’s more about the torment of the people that were in here.”

Combat in Lords of the Fallen is weighty and physical – as you lug your tired, armored character into yet another battle, there’s a terrific sense of ardor which matches the game’s depleted and anguished world design. On the contrary, combat options from the original Lords of the Fallen have been greatly expanded and improved, and nimble, lightly-armored builds now offer a refreshing alternative. Inspired by the work of FromSoftware, Virtuso explains the challenges of making a great soulslike.

“The FromSoftware games are excellent,” Virtuso says. “You could dislike the genre, because you like soccer games or something, but these games are so masterfully crafted. They introduced so many new ideas to the table that we, the rest of the industry, can only be inspired.

“We were humbled. We went in with high ego, because we’re the Redditors, the guys posting s***. We come from the trenches. And we thought we knew a lot. But we were humbled by how little we knew in terms of creating compelling combat. Designing combat [for a soulslike] is incredibly challenging. The feedback came in, and we had to create ancillary systems and rework it and make it good.

“And then the level design has to be absolutely on point,” Virtuso continues. “These games live and die by their level design. The world needs to feel lived in, needs to feel real, and you need to see landmarks and not get lost. You need to go, discover, return, come back. It’s like working a Chinese puzzle box. It has to be bulletproof.

But even if you get everything right, in a world of so many soulslikes, where the tropes and tenets of the genre are so well established, is there a risk of becoming lost in the crowd? Virtuso and Chaudret say they are worried about the amount of soulslikes out there, but also believe that if a game is good, players will come to it regardless.

“Yes, we are worried,” Virtuso says. “But at the same time if we’re true to ourselves and dig deep into our well, no one is going to reach the depths that we have reached.”

“It’s worrying in the sense that we want to succeed from a business standpoint,” Chaudret continues, “but I think players are not at all against just having more good games. If we do a good game, people will be super happy. It’s our job to make it as good as possible and then it will stand out because they will just like what they are playing.”

The goal, then, is to continue building and improving upon the FromSoftware formula. There might be a lot of soulslikes, but that doesn’t mean CI Games, Lords of the Fallen, or any other developer needs to abandon or upend the genre entirely. On the contrary, Dark Souls, Elden Ring, and the rest serve as inspiration for future, more individual interpretations of the concept. The answer, Virtuso says, is not to create the “anti Dark Souls,” but to continue searching for what makes these games powerful.

“This is a storytelling trick,” Virtuso concludes. “We, as humans, are more open to negative emotions. The bitter stories stay in your head more than the happy stories, because your brain tells you to remember the bitter story, so you can avoid the same outcome happening to you. That’s the secret. The fact it ends in sorrow, it makes it much more poignant.

“You can’t do the anti Dark Souls. You saw what happened to all the World of Warcraft killers. You cannot do a game that is the antithesis. You have to be true to yourself and reach as deep as you can into your well.”

Lords of the Fallen devs are worried there are so many soulslikes

The Lords of the Fallen devs say they worry about the amount of soulslikes, but think players still respond to RPGs like Dark Souls, Bloodborne, and Elden Ring.

www.pcgamesn.com

 

[Knightime_X]

Add an easy mode and I'm in.
I do love very hard challenges every so often, but I don't have time to git gud with every new soulslike.

Adding difficulty settings won't make it soulslike any more.
Problem solved. lol

 

[Kacho]

I think Lords of the Fallen would have a lot more appeal if it was a AA open world RPG similar to Kingdoms of Amalur rather than trying to ape the Souls series.

 

[Punished Miku]

The souls aspects are the least appealing part to me. I'm more interested in the dual world elements. But I'm probably the outlier.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

What makes it soulslike?

Difficulty? Or some kinda souls on death and lost forever on the second death mechanic?

Because if you ask me, the latter is the only thing that makes a game soulslike.

And I don't even know why anyone adds that to their game. I think they should have gone in harder on the soul-reaver elements of their game than the souls part of it. That part gives them some originality and adds a lot more depth than just, a die and try not to die until you get your souls back mechanic.

Ah well, still looking forward to it.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

I plan to skip lords of the fallen, lies of p, steel rising, surge 1+2, etc . . . I can't even get through the From soulsborne games I have now. Why would I buy and spend time on the knock offs?

 

[Kacho]

What makes it soulslike?

Difficulty? Or some kinda souls on death and lost forever on the second death mechanic?

Because if you ask me, the latter is the only thing that makes a game soulslike.

And I don't even know why anyone adds that to their game. I think they should have gone in harder on the soul-reaver elements of their game than the souls part of it. That part gives them some originality and ads a lot more depth than just, a die and try not to die until you get your souls back mechanic.

Difficulty, interconnecting routes, a currency that you risk losing if you don't complete a successful corpse run, enemies with obvious tells to overcome.

 

[Kacho]

Look at this screenshot. If you told me that was an RPG without any context I'd be through the roof. But knowing it's just another dopey Souls clone crushes me. Why are devs so eager to copy that style of game? I find it boring personally.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Difficulty, interconnecting routes, a currency that you risk losing if you don't complete a successful corpse run, enemies with obvious tells to overcome.

So Metroidvania?

I will never attribute difficulty to any game or type of game as a feature. As there are tons of very difficult games out there. Enemies with obvious tells, could be said about every action game out there,its pretty much a requirement.

The only thing that to me, makes a game a souls game, is the last thing you mentioned, a currency that you risk losing... that to me, is not something that others shouldn't even bother copying as there are many other ways to go about making a great game than to copy that.

 

[Stuart360]

A bit of an ironic thing to say really when the first LOTF was the first mainline Souls clone.

 

[Gaiff]

Add an easy mode and I'm in.

 

[Kacho]

So Metroidvania?

I will never attribute difficulty to any game or type of game as a feature. As there are tons of very difficult games out there. Enemies with obvious tells, could be said about every action game out there,its pretty much a requirement.

The only thing that to me, makes a game a souls game, is the last thing you mentioned, a currency that you risk losing... that to me, is not something that others shouldn't even bother copying as there are many other ways to go about making a great game than to copy that.

Nah, Metroidvania’s are more about finding new powers so you can access previously inaccessible areas.

But if you’ve ever played a Souls game before you can immediately see the aping in the video below. It’s borderline shameful IMO. I’m good with a new proper Souls game every few years, I have no interest in imitators. Same goes for Monster Hunter.

 

[Danjin44]

I personally have zero interest in games that so fucking on the nose about where they get so called "insperation" from.

As long as FROM making games then I dont need clones when I can play actual Souls game.

 

[DeepEnigma]

So is this like a sequel or a mulligan to the 2014 game? They both have the same name.

 

[Kacho]

So is this like a sequel or a mulligan to the 2014 game? They both have the same name.

It’s a reboot lol

 

[Stuart360]

So is this like a sequel or a mulligan to the 2014 game? They both have the same name.

A reboot. I'm not sure if it has any links to the orig game. Also the new one is called 'THE Lords of the Fallen', while just Lords of the Fallen for the first one lol.

 

[Mr Hyde]

Very hyped for this one. Everything about it looks right up my alley. The dual world mechanic looks very interesting and could result in a fun and unique way to explore the landscape. Finally a dev who takes advantage of the SSD rather than just shortening load times.

 

[Arsic]

If they can create unique experiences from the from soft blueprint I’m all for it.

The issue is most folks don’t succeed.

Best attempts to me have been the blasphemous games, and Mortal Shell. Even though I didn’t beat MS I still respect the attempt.

 

[graywolf323]

Soulslikes aren’t for me, I’m glad that there’s been so many quality ones for people that enjoy them though

I can see why a dev is worried about just how many there have been though because not everything can be a success

 

[DeepEnigma]

It’s a reboot lol

A reboot. I'm not sure if it has any links to the orig game. Also the new one is called 'THE Lords of the Fallen', while just Lords of the Fallen for the first one lol.

Ah okay, I guess that makes sense.

 

[gaming_again]

I’m too burned out on the clones. None of these developers seem to understand how From’s games are actually fair at their core.

 

[bender]

Nioh 1/2 and Remnant From The Ashes (not the sequel) are the only Souls-inspired games that I've loved. After trying and being disappointed in so many others, I'm at the point now where I don't want to give new attempts a fair shake.

 

[Raven117]

Yeah...I just...nah.

 

[Clear]

My sense is, you need to pick a lane.

Either double down on the pure action side, putting the action front and centre, like Team Ninja do. Or, put way more than FROM do into the narrative and RPG side and make it more of a specific fleshed-out story with a full cast of engaging characters, cut-scenes and branching plot-points.

Taking FROM's minimalist approach is a really bad idea because they have that formula locked down to fine art, BUT, as shown by how relatively little this aspect of their games has grown and changed since Demons' back in 2009, there's not a lot of space to work with. So yeah, you can copy them beat-for-beat, and it'll work... but the end result will just be an imitation.

 

[Stuart360]

I’m too burned out on the clones. None of these developers seem to understand how From’s games are actually fair at their core.

Surge 2 is pretty awesome imo, and probably my fave Souls style game outside of From games.
It also tries to do stuff a little different, and succeeds imo.

 

[R6Rider]

At least it's not another 2d side scrolling one.

 

[gaming_again]

Surge 2 is pretty awesome imo, and probably my fave Souls style game outside of From games.
It also tries to do stuff a little different, and succeeds imo.

I played it for about five hours. I quite liked it at first but the parries and hits didn’t have enough impact for me… the sound design is so important for these games. You need those crunches.

 

[kiphalfton]

I think Lords of the Fallen would have a lot more appeal if it was a AA open world RPG similar to Kingdoms of Amalur rather than trying to ape the Souls series.

Oh yeah, just make it another genre altogether so it doesn't encroach upon your precious souls games.

Simple solution, don't play the game.

 

[Killer8]

I think what makes us different is our world. It’s much more allegorical. You go from a Gothic fantasy to something much more cosmic horror, almost Giger-esque with bones, giant statues, skeletons moulded together.

What he describes as the key difference is something that From already does within the same game...

We went in with high ego, because we’re the Redditors

Oh...

 

[Lux R7]

yeah i agree with him, in the end you just have to create a good game.
I will be there day one.

 

[Kacho]

Oh yeah, just make it another genre altogether so it doesn't encroach upon your precious souls games.

My precious Souls games? What are you talking about? The Souls formula is already played out on the From side IMO. Not really yearning for more.

Simple solution, don't play the game.

That's the plan.

 

[Fbh]

To me the problem isn't the amount of souls like but:
-The fact most of them NOT made by FROM suck
- The lack of originality and new ideas. Oh look another Dark Medieval Fantasy world, oh look another Bloodborne inspire world, oh look a dark story told through vague dialogue and items descriptions. It's also (almost) always a dark and depressing setting where most of the world is already ruined.
Why not a game that takes cues from souls combat and level design, even the bonfire and soul retrieval mechanic.... but has a more adventurous and fun tone? Or like proper towns with tons of NPC's, or a more traditional approach to story telling maybe add Witcher style conversations?

 

[DeepEnigma]

-The fact most of them made by FROM suck

 

[Bloobs]

These dudes were the first copycats lol.

 

[quest]

To me the problem isn't the amount of souls like but:
-The fact most of them made by FROM suck
- The lack of originality and new ideas. Oh look another Dark Medieval Fantasy world, oh look another Bloodborne inspire world, oh look a dark story told through vague dialogue and items descriptions. It's also (almost) always a dark and depressing setting where most of the world is already ruined.
Why not a game that takes cues from souls combat and level design, even the bonfire and soul retrieval mechanic.... but has a more adventurous and fun tone? Or like proper towns with tons of NPC's, or a more traditional approach to story telling maybe add Witcher style conversations?

I say the 2 star wars games did a lot of that. I enjoyed the fallen order a ton better than DS2, DS3 or Demon Souls. I say they are souls games set in star wars universe. Like spiderman by insomniac is a arkham game set in the marvel universe.

 

[fart town usa]

Game looks dope to but he is right. There's no shortage and I don't have anywhere near the amount of time to git gud at them all, nor do I want to really. I plan on getting this though as long as the gameplay isn't a mess. Will definitely be watching Tyranicon videos to get an idea of how the game is.

 

[Kataploom]

The problem with the amount of soulslike isn't gameplay or mechanic copycats, it's setup and art style copycats, Kena and Jedi games are steps in the right direction imo

 

[Fbh]

I should have been NOT made by FROM

 

[Northeastmonk]

To me the problem isn't the amount of souls like but:
-The fact most of them made by FROM suck
- The lack of originality and new ideas. Oh look another Dark Medieval Fantasy world, oh look another Bloodborne inspire world, oh look a dark story told through vague dialogue and items descriptions. It's also (almost) always a dark and depressing setting where most of the world is already ruined.
Why not a game that takes cues from souls combat and level design, even the bonfire and soul retrieval mechanic.... but has a more adventurous and fun tone? Or like proper towns with tons of NPC's, or a more traditional approach to story telling maybe add Witcher style conversations?

NPC’s and townsfolk would add unnecessary filler and for no good reason. If there are towns people, I want them to have 3-5 lines of dialogue tops unless they actually do something useful.

The adventure FromSoftware has created is vital for adventure games. You don’t need to have hundreds of dialogue trees to cypher to go on an adventure. The reason why From Software games work so well is that you craft your story with the world that’s around you. You live in a world that once flourished and whatever survived is what you will be facing.

I can imagine a couple games just by those leaks 4chan had years ago about Elden Ring. One where the player took body parts from the bosses? That’s all bogus, but night and day cycles could be expanded upon. They could craft their own LotR style epic with their work from Elden Ring. They could make another excellent Bloodborne game. They’ve got all the tools and they’ve crafted an epic world with each game. I think if you’re absorbing every single souls like game then you’re bound to lose the magic. It’s like that with every genre.

I don’t think they need to add the sandbox NPC world to their games. I think storytelling with their worlds can be expanded upon. It’s like climbing a wall and seeing a whole new ecosystem or civilization living out their lives. I don’t exactly want to talk to all those people. Which is why I love From games so much. They don’t make me talk to a bunch of people because I’d rather be on my horse adventuring.

 

[Danjin44]

 

[Kakax11]

Mortal Shell is still the best Souls-like that it not a Dark Souls game

 

[Fbh]

NPC’s and townsfolk would add unnecessary filler and for no good reason. If there are towns people, I want them to have 3-5 lines of dialogue tops unless they actually do something useful.

The adventure FromSoftware has created is vital for adventure games. You don’t need to have hundreds of dialogue trees to cypher to go on an adventure. The reason why From Software games work so well is that you craft your story with the world that’s around you. You live in a world that once flourished and whatever survived is what you will be facing.

I can imagine a couple games just by those leaks 4chan had years ago about Elden Ring. One where the player took body parts from the bosses? That’s all bogus, but night and day cycles could be expanded upon. They could craft their own LotR style epic with their work from Elden Ring. They could make another excellent Bloodborne game. They’ve got all the tools and they’ve crafted an epic world with each game. I think if you’re absorbing every single souls like game then you’re bound to lose the magic. It’s like that with every genre.

I don’t think they need to add the sandbox NPC world to their games. I think storytelling with their worlds can be expanded upon. It’s like climbing a wall and seeing a whole new ecosystem or civilization living out their lives. I don’t exactly want to talk to all those people. Which is why I love From games so much. They don’t make me talk to a bunch of people because I’d rather be on my horse adventuring.

To be clear I don't think FROM needs to add those elements to their games. They have their own style and I think it's ok for them to stick with it.

I'm talking about other studios making "souls-like". My issue with most non FROM souls games is that not only are they worse, but they often don't bring a whole lot of new stuff to the table, most devs just seem to want to make their own version of Dark Souls / Bloodborne instead of taking some of the ideas and mechanics and making something more unique with it.
If I want to play a dark medieval fantasy, set in a decadent ruined world, with only few NPC which mostly just have a few lines of dialogue, no towns outside of a central hub-like area and with a lore based story that's primarily told through vague dialogue and item descriptions....then I'd rather just play Dark Souls/Elden Ring.

 

[The artful mincer]

I don't think being a soulslike is an issue. Soulslike is just how a game is structured and can transcend genres after all Hollow knight a 2d metroidvanina and Renmant 2 a 3rd person shooter are both Souls like.

What is more an issue is that it's a 3rd person hack and slash. Everything from Final Fantasy, Assassin's Creed to God of War is that these days. ( Not to mention a million soulslikes)

You need to be either really exceptional or offer something unique to stand out these days. Unfortunately Lord's of the Fallen and Lies of P just look competent which is not enough for me at least

 

[Raonak]

Honestly, the souls gameplay is a bit long in the tooth. Game should try evolving that formular instead of trying to replicate it.

The combat feels legitimately mundane now and and dropping all your currency and going on a corpse run to retrieve it is very played out.

Any new game advertising that as a feature will only get eye rolls.

 

[Fake]

'We can't do better'.

 

[Aion002]

These dudes were the first copycats lol.

Nope.

It was Deck13 (The Surge 1 and 2), they were the ones that made the first Lords of the fallen game, this new game is being made by a new studio, it is their first game.


Anyway, the problem with making a souls game is that you can't just simply copy the combat, you have to add your original thing while keeping it balanced and fun. The combat is the most important aspect in this type of game. If it's janky or unresponsive, the game is dead.

Also, most people won't care for a souls rip-off that doesn't bring anything new.

Games that did that succeeded (like Nioh and The Surge)...Games that didn’t, failed.

Hopefully this won't fail.

 

[lughnasadh123]

Dark, edge-lord designs
Dark environments.
Sloooow-talking bosses speaking cryptic messages
Gameplay of dodging massive ranged weapons with 15 hit combos hoping to get a poke in or two
Story? There's a broken sword on the ground. There's your fucking story.
Vague systems to puzzle out because fuck you.
You'll drop your currency on death for...reasons? Oh, and fuck you.

Yeah, we're ready to move on from this crap.

What got me awhile ago was listening to a bunch of podcasts about Starfield listing complaints on how they didn't fully explain it's systems or make it brain-dead easy to find vendors on when they never complain about it for FS games or their knockoffs.

 

[Kurotri]

Really liked reading the interview. I'm hoping they knock it out of the park and this puts them on the map.

 

[ByWatterson]

Can't place it exactly, but something about this game is just screaming "breakout hit."

 

[PixelatedBeast]

I plan to skip lords of the fallen, lies of p, steel rising, surge 1+2, etc . . . I can't even get through the From soulsborne games I have now. Why would I buy and spend time on the knock offs?

Uhh, Im not the biggest SoulsBorne fan, but Lords of the Fallen and Lies of P look like the best iterations of "knock offs". Lords of the Fallen has a game mechanic that does not exist in Souls games and the depth of combat looks more varied.