LTTP: Chrono Trigger / So I finally beat Chrono Trigger today

Stumpokapow said:
Sorry, at which point? Masamune is actually one of the most well integrated sidestories of the entire plot. What follows are spoilers for the Masamune story right through to the end of the game.

Dreamstone was present through the earth's history. By 12,000 BC it had been used to harness the power of magic; it is present in Schala's pendant, the Mammon Machine, and the Ruby Knife. Melchior made the Ruby Knife and we see Masa and Mune at the same time--, and it's also implied that he either created them or imbued them with some aspect of the dreamstone or the knife. When the Ruby Knife stabs the Mammon Machine, it becomes the Masamune. Masa and Mune presumably lived through the ages either separate from or inside the sword, surviving to 600AD, where Cyrus and Glenn go to see them. Because Cyrus stands up to them in combat, they become Masamune and give themselves to him. Masamune is the only sword powerful enough to destroy Magus, which is more significant when we later learn that both Masa/Mune and Magus come from the Kingdom of Zeal. When Masamune is cracked, the party needs to get Dreamstone from 65,000,000 BC in order to have it repaired in 1000AD to bring it back to 600AD to get the job done. This helps effectively show us how every time period in Chrono Trigger is linked. The parties actions reach through time, and only by connecting 65,000,000BC to 12,000BC to 600AD to 1000AD are they able to actually set in motion the events that lead to the fateful day.

Without killing Magus, the party would not be sent to 65,000,000 BC. Without the party showing up there, humans would never have beaten the Reptites and Azala's connection to Lavos would never occurs. Without Lavos, Zeal would never have been able to construct the Underwater Palace, the Queen would have never been possessed, and Janus would never have been sent through time by Schala. Without Janus in 600AD, Magus never would have risen and there would have been no war with humanity, which in turn defines the history of the kingdom of Guardia. They're all linked

*shrugs* I liked that plot, and that's even without Frog's end-game sidequest which also connects to it.

If you want an actually underdeveloped sidestory, the relationship between Janus and Ozzie / Magus and Ozzie is probably the game's least developed.
Click to expand...

You're whole argument hinges on the idea that the MasaMune was needed to defeat Magus, but that's really just a plot point that could've been easily thrown out and replaced with another one.

If the party had gone from the future timeline to Medina village, realized Magus was involved in Lavos' uprising, and then went straight to Magus' hideout the game would've flowed much better. The player would've been introduced to Ayla's timeline more naturally, and all the plot holes involving the MasaMune (and there are many) would be gone. If I had my way I'd ditch everything about that sword and add more story after the underwater palace... um.. ya' know.

See, I guess I always read that to mean "I hope I go out killing you" rather than being related to Lavos. I can't say I understand her character's importance, role in the story, or motivation in light of this new reflection :p
Click to expand...

The whole concept of summoning something from space seems kind of odd to me. You know, anytime you go to Ayla's timeline Lavos' star is always visible from the top of the mountain (except after he lands of course), which is how I assumed Azala was aware of his arrival. Furthermore, whenever Crono and crew change something in history it's usually revealed during a later period. For example, defeating Magus causes Ozzie to become the Mystic's legendary hero, instead. If Crono was responsible for Lavos landing then the human race never would've evolved the way it did, and... yea, like someone said, you'd be stuck in a time loop.
 
Given that Lavos' fall caused an ice age that would've killed the Reptites anyways, that suggests a kamikaze bent that Azala never had...spite, though, fits. Especially as she refuses the offer for help right after.
 
yeah wow thats weird

i always read it as her summoning him too

the alternative kind of makes that 65m bc section... meaningless, doesnt it? i thought the point was that by going back in time, the party were the ones who averted the victory of the reptites over humanity, and upon realising her defeat, azala summoned lavos since the humans had beaten the reptites in war anyway, by killing her and everything in her lair

sort of a if i cant win no one can button

but if lavos was coming anyway, the reptites never could have won because the ice age would have killed them no matter what

so wtf was the point
 
randomkid said:
Yes, this was always my reading. The motivation was pure spite. Fighting till the bitter end, knowing it was all in vain anyways, if only to prove that the Reptites were better than stupid monkeys. Kind of a Dick Cheney-esque concern with how history would remember them.

Goddamn did I love this part of the game.
Click to expand...
I can see it this way as well. However, I don't buy the prophecy idea. I would rather bank on Azala being involved with the calamity then there being some ancient reptilian mystic. She was also way to intelligent.
You also had the Nu in the BC era...who are possibly futuristic robots. One of the gurus could have played around or another story involving some additional time travel. We didn't get to see that much of the guru's back-stories. Azala was likely a false prophet who was influenced by some time traveling prankster.

Though, I'm not set on any of these ideas. It's all speculation but the spite style ending is sort of lame. :(

Duki said:
so wtf was the point
Click to expand...
It was for the sake of the time travelers meeting the BC people.
Basically, meeting Ayla and Kino. Also, it was an accidental time travel so did it really need that much of a point? You got your gear stolen and had to get it back. You met some ancestors of main characters and witnessed the arrival to earth of the main antagonist.

Most RPGs wish they could wave those events cohesively even if it was the weakest.
 
Haha man oh man this is like the nerdiest conversation ever, I'm loving it.

I was also really happy that there was
never any concrete explanation for the Nus and their connection to the entity.
My imagination can fill in the details better than the game probably could.
 
Duki said:
yeah wow thats weird

i always read it as her summoning him too

the alternative kind of makes that 65m bc section... meaningless, doesnt it? i thought the point was that by going back in time, the party were the ones who averted the victory of the reptites over humanity, and upon realising her defeat, azala summoned lavos since the humans had beaten the reptites in war anyway, by killing her and everything in her lair

sort of a if i cant win no one can button

but if lavos was coming anyway, the reptites never could have won because the ice age would have killed them no matter what

so wtf was the point
Click to expand...

The point was so that 1) you would learn the origins of Lavos and 2) you could travel to Zeal where all the real shit went down.
 
Again, personally I think it was just a logical guess, not a prophecy. Azala is intelligent. It doesn't take a genius to know that the fall of a meteorite the size of Lavos would cause an ice age.

And the Nu in the Prehistoric village is
just one of the Nus from the Ocean Palace. He doesn't speak Prehistoric (unlike the Nu that you can fight in the Hunting Range) and he gives you one of those magic stones that unlock the secret Triple Techs (the other stones are all in Zeal). He probably just ended in Prehistory when the Gurus and Janus were also scattered in time from the Ocean Palace.
 
randomkid said:
Haha man oh man this is like the nerdiest conversation ever, I'm loving it.

I was also really happy that there was
never any concrete explanation for the Nus and their connection to the entity.
My imagination can fill in the details better than the game probably could.
Click to expand...
They were robots built by Belthasar. He sent them all through time to influence the future. Since he was the guru who experienced the calamity, he traveled through time to plant his operators. I'm betting the Nu in 65BC influenced Azala. The other Nu likely had similar functionality.

"All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu...This is my belief...at least for now!"

Nu's are robots so they don't understand the concept of life. They think that life is created around them when they are built. This also could allude to the idea that the Nu are maintaining mankind's survival basically controlling who lives or dies. After all, one of the great Guru's who appeared to be the real genius built them.

Belthasar2.png

Man & Machine

Also remember that Toriyama always had weird concepts when it came to drawing
robots/androids.
 
Stumpokapow said:
See, I guess I always read that to mean "I hope I go out killing you" rather than being related to Lavos. I can't say I understand her character's importance, role in the story, or motivation in light of this new reflection :p
Click to expand...

Isn't that the part where you're first introduced to the concept of Lavos being from outer space?

Doesn't seem entirely useless since it softens the blow of the other stuff we learn about Lavos.

Like the reveal that Lavos is part of a parasitic race that feeds off of planets, and then shoots their babies to other planets.
 
gunbo13 said:
"All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu...This is my belief...at least for now!"
Click to expand...

Bit of a Woolseyism, but mostly accurate.

Original Japanese:

"Mystery of Life"
Volume 841, Chapter 26
All life began in Nu and will end in Nu...
Because I said so, this is likely infallable.
Maybe.
 
jaxword said:
Bit of a Woolseyism, but mostly accurate.

Original Japanese:

"Mystery of Life"
Volume 841, Chapter 26
All life began in Nu and will end in Nu...
Because I said so, this is likely infallable.
Maybe.
Click to expand...
Nobody should forget these guys either.

Poyozo%20Doll.gif
 
gunbo13 said:
They were robots built by Belthasar. He sent them all through time to influence the future. Since he was the guru who experienced the calamity, he traveled through time to plant his operators. I'm betting the Nu in 65BC influenced Azala. The other Nu likely had similar functionality.

"All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu...This is my belief...at least for now!"

Nu's are robots so they don't understand the concept of life. They think that life is created around them when they are built. This also could allude to the idea that the Nu are maintaining mankind's survival basically controlling who lives or dies. After all, one of the great Guru's who appeared to be the real genius built them.

Belthasar2.png

Man & Machine

Also remember that Toriyama always had weird concepts when it came to drawing
robots/androids.
Click to expand...

Oh I remember all that, I just remember this feeling that they were also somehow connected to
that entity
based on some snippets of dialogue and where they were located. I could be wrong though.
 
randomkid said:
Oh I remember all that, I just remember this feeling that they were also somehow connected to
that entity
based on some snippets of dialogue and where they were located. I could be wrong though.
Click to expand...

Nah, the "Entity" is an anthropomorphism of The Planet.

The concept of a living planet is explored in a lot in S-E works, like FF7.


On a related issue, check out this nifty Entity lighter:

2585f7b.jpg
 
The Entity is the planet. In the Japanese version it was so obvious that the name "Entity" wasn't even used; there was just the word "planet" being repeated everywhere throughough the story and "someone/something" being used when the English script used "Entity".

jaxword said:
On a related issue, check out this nifty Entity lighter:

2585f7b.jpg
Click to expand...

Note that this text is originally from the Chrono Cross instruction manual.
 
Real conspiracy talk

Balthazar used time travel to learn about Lavos, discovering that he is an amazing source of energy. The Nu robots were sent out to all different times to monitor Lavos's existence. Balthazar being a genius inventor was enthralled at the abilities of Lavos. He wanted to harness that ability for his machines. However, he tinkered to much in coercing mankind to play to his orchestration. The plan backfired with the events of Zeal which brought forth the eventual calamity. Balthazar now with a ruined future went back to mend his ways. He sent out the poyozo dolls to assist the heroes who would destroy his abused mutation. He consulted with the other gurus to ensure his plans were successful. He left all evidence he could in the future before dying out.
 
god chrono cross' story sucked dick btw

is there a thread where we can hate on that garbage or what

too bad because the actual game and music and graphics and stuff were all fun
 
gunbo13 said:
Real conspiracy talk

Balthazar used time travel to learn about Lavos, discovering that he is an amazing source of energy. The Nu robots were sent out to all different times to monitor Lavos's existence.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't that imply
Balthazar could time travel before being banished to the future?
 
Balthazar actually was in the process of making a time machine when Lavos attacked. So it's not impossible to say he had time travel knowledge to some degree.

There are two Balthazars in the Chronoverse.

1 ended up in the ruined future, lost his mind from the isolation and died, but finished making the Epoch and the Poyozo dolls.

The second ended up in the NON ruined future, so he met all the advanced scientists (and Lucca, eventually) and was able to orchestrate Chrono Cross with these resources.

So yeah, Balthazar definitely had some degree of Time Travel genius.
 
Fimbulvetr said:
Wouldn't that imply
Balthazar could time travel before being banished to the future?
Click to expand...

Well Lavos came to earth in all time-lines.
So who really knows what the initial time-line was like that banished Balthazar to the future. Balthazar could have discovered many things in Zeal with his high status and funding. Messing with Lavos's energy on his own he could have accidentally banished himself to the future. Vying for the past and what he learned about the time gates, he sought out a way to travel back. He built the Epoch with all this accumulated knowledge. He then sent the Nu's out on missions with the Epoch, all while staying in the future. His goal was to harvest the energy of Lavos early in history to change its outcome. He thought that the potential even in the prehistoric era could be harvested by say Azala. He felt that any of the cultures could use Lavos's energy to change the future he was in.

The problem was that all civilizations failed to use Lavos's energy properly. Even Zeal on a new time-line made the same mistake but this time under different circumstances. This new time-line caused ripples that led to Balthazar learning from the Nu's about Janus/Schala/etc... Realizing that he has distorted time too much and he can't save the future with his methods, he sought outside help. The Nu's and poyozo dolls were sent out to assist the heroes in destroying the entity he tried to harvest.

The back-story is a tale of greed by a brilliant scientist. He had a failed experiment controlling a forbidden energy and was banished to a bleak future. However, his pride made him feel that he can use his new knowledge to change history to his liking. He failed over and over with his surroundings always being bleak. He eventually realized that he had wasted the remainder of his days trying to change all the time-lines except his own. He gave up his pride and decided to assist in the destruction of the power he so wanted to control. He orchestrated one more plan before dying that he hoped would save the world. He finally succeeded in death.
 
randomkid said:
Haha man oh man this is like the nerdiest conversation ever, I'm loving it.
Click to expand...

I know, just reading this reminds me how good this game truly was. Even admitting the story was nowhere near perfect, it was good enough to elicit this type of serious discussion. And I'm still amazed at the ability of the developers to convey a characters feelings and emotions with the limitations of the 16-bit hardware at the time.
 
gunbo13 said:
Well Lavos came to earth in all time-lines.
So who really knows what the initial time-line was like that banished Balthazar to the future. Balthazar could have discovered many things in Zeal with his high status and funding. Messing with Lavos's energy on his own he could have accidentally banished himself to the future. Vying for the past and what he learned about the time gates, he sought out a way to travel back. He built the Epoch with all this accumulated knowledge. He then sent the Nu's out on missions with the Epoch, all while staying in the future. His goal was to harvest the energy of Lavos early in history to change its outcome. He thought that the potential even in the prehistoric era could be harvested by say Azala. He felt that any of the cultures could use Lavos's energy to change the future he was in.

The problem was that all civilizations failed to use Lavos's energy properly. Even Zeal on a new time-line made the same mistake but this time under different circumstances. This new time-line caused ripples that led to Balthazar learning from the Nu's about Janus/Schala/etc... Realizing that he has distorted time too much and he can't save the future with his methods, he sought outside help. The Nu's and poyozo dolls were sent out to assist the heroes in destroying the entity he tried to harvest.

The back-story is a tale of greed by a brilliant scientist. He had a failed experiment controlling a forbidden energy and was banished to a bleak future. However, his pride made him feel that he can use his new knowledge to change history to his liking. He failed over and over with his surroundings always being bleak. He eventually realized that he had wasted the remainder of his days trying to change all the time-lines except his own. He gave up his pride and decided to assist in the destruction of the power he so wanted to control. He orchestrated one more plan before dying that he hoped would save the world. He finally succeeded in death.
Click to expand...

You're about to hit "Squall's Dying Dream" levels of eye-rolling here.
 
41-village21.jpg

ahahahahahahaha nooooo this fucking thing

i somehow buried my memories of it deep, deep down

i should not have read this thing
 
Fimbulvetr said:
You're about to hit "Squall's Dying Dream" levels of eye-rolling here.
Click to expand...
I'm really not reaching that much at all. I'm not even really suggesting that much beyond what the story gave us. I just think that Balthazar was the key figure in the story. A scientist trying to re-do a failed experiment instead of just destroying the source. This alludes to a story that might explain Azala's situation. I don't think it is that mind-blowing.

Not that it matters. I really don't get too serious about this stuff. ;)
 
Magicpaint said:
Fantastic game and in terms of providing a compelling overall package has very few peers. It just does everything well and there really isn't anything I would want to change about it. Before I used to think it could be longer or maybe harder, but now I've done a reverse on both based on a playthrough. The game is perfect the way it is.

Corridors of Time, Schala's Theme, Epoch, Wind, Frog's theme, Magus' theme etc are all fantastic tunes I never tire of.

But today I give special mention to this baby: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TykpyrHAZpw
Click to expand...

Thank you, I absolutely love this one. It randomly gets stuck in my head, dunno why. It's not the type of theme to stick out to me much, either.
 
jokkir said:
Is Chrono Cross at least worth a playthrough or should I just read every spoilerific thing about it?
Click to expand...
Its worth it. Many have found that it aged poorly, but it's better than more contemporary JRPGs, which isn't saying much.
 
jokkir said:
Is Chrono Cross at least worth a playthrough or should I just read every spoilerific thing about it?
Click to expand...
I kinda liked it, so I think it's worth a playthrough, or at least investing in a few hours. If you don't like it after a few hours, then I'd advise reading all the spoilers for it. The background art is amazing, though. It's a "love it or hate it" kind of game.

But the soundtrack is mandatory listening. Mandatory.
 
jokkir said:
Is Chrono Cross at least worth a playthrough or should I just read every spoilerific thing about it?
Click to expand...
the game part of the game is fine if a little unconventional

the story is godawful garbage

your call really

if you dont care about story in games go for it
 
just wanted to let everyone know that chrono trigger music was playing in my head all day yesterday and is set to go on all day today.

pretty sure that's a good thing
 
gravitybear said:
just wanted to let everyone know that chrono trigger music was playing in my head all day yesterday and is set to go on all day today.

pretty sure that's a good thing
Click to expand...

Good luck. I've had Schala's Theme and Memories of Time stuck in my head since 1995.
 
My history with this game is all over the place. First time I played it was on an emulator a long time ago quite a bit before even Chrono Cross was announced. I was very, very close to beating it but I accidentally deleted the save file.

Then I was able to play it again, years after I played and beat Chrono Cross on the Chronicles collection on PSX. Slow loading was annoying at first, but I got so used to it I didn't notice the lag after a while. And I finally beat it!

And not too long after that my PS2 died the DRE and my PSX wasn't working either at the time. blegh. Sold the game along with all my PS2 games...and bought a gamecube with RE4, Metriod Prime and Wind Waker. Can't say I regret that decision, honestly.

Years after that I finally bought the SNES version of Chrono Trigger but I've yet to actually beat it with that cartridge. I think I made it as far as Zeal on that copy.





I think I've done everything in this game except doing the multiple endings and new game+. Just didn't have the interest. But I guess new game+ can be an incentive to play it again, other than to say I beat the SNES version. Still don't really care much about the multiple endings. Could never understand what's so interesting about multiple endings in games. Especially if only the ending is affected.
 
Midas said:
I've never been able to beat
Lavos
. :(
Click to expand...
He isn't that bad. The main thing you want is high mag def armor.
You should not focus too much on AoE for all the forms since you should be attacking single targets (luminaire can be mixed in effectively though). You should use your strongest dual techs like ice sword II, volt bite, fire sword II, etc... Those will take out his first form easy. Then on his typical big alien form it is about concentrating on taking out the arms. Eventually, you'll be ripping up his main body with dual techs since he can't keep up with the damage. His last form is basically the same except you are weeding out the pods first. Then he will crumple.

There are of course party/accessory/equipment adjustments to make it a breeze to beat him. I mentioned most of these in the thread. I'll re-iterate for a cheat sheet.

Vanilla
Helms - Haste Helm (Cr), Prism Helms
Armor - Nova, Moon, Prism Dresses
Accessories - Gold Stud (75% off mp), Frenzy Band (80% counter), Prism Specs

You also have a lot of character specific stuff that should over-write these default options. Lucca especially has all custom stuff, Frog as well.

Remake
A lot of even more broken stuff. Angel's Tiara can give auto-haste to Ayla which is beyond broken if Crono has the haste helm as well. There are ridiculous new armors which I choose not to use (nova/prism for life). The exception is the accessories. Nothing beats using a combination of gold stud, frenzy band, and prism specs.

Follow all that and CT is on auto-pilot. The only issues come earlier on the first run-through where your gear is limited. You have to treat those uniquely of course.
 
gravitybear said:
same except mine is for the zeal music. I still have that song just randomly play in my head sometimes
Click to expand...

Me too. It's a magical track. The one in the forest with the deep bass and piano is wonderful too.
 
gunbo13 said:
There are of course party/accessory/equipment adjustments to make it a breeze to beat him. I mentioned most of these in the thread. I'll re-iterate for a cheat sheet.

Vanilla
Helms - Haste Helm (Cr), Prism Helms
Armor - Nova, Moon, Prism Dresses
Accessories - Gold Stud (75% off mp), Frenzy Band (80% counter), Prism Specs
Click to expand...
I find it kind of funny that those were pretty much the items my trio were using minus the haste helm and prism specs.
One quick question, upon beating the pink Robot in Robo's sidequest I remember receiving some item specifically for Robo but I never noticed it in my accessories, does it just automatically increase Robo's stats or did I just not pick it up?
 
Nocturnowl said:
I find it kind of funny that those were pretty much the items my trio were using minus the haste helm and prism specs.
One quick question, upon beating the pink Robot in Robo's sidequest I remember receiving some item specifically for Robo but I never noticed it in my accessories, does it just automatically increase Robo's stats or did I just not pick it up?
Click to expand...
That's a perma item boost for Robo in the form of a ribbon.
It doesn't help though since he is still terrible. ;)

I almost forgot about quests that forced secondary characters to lead the crew. That is an undermentioned feature of CT. Not to mention that most of the quests were quite fleshed out. Frog leading brings back memories.

EDIT:
You should use the prism specs on Ayla. You think she was strong before. lol She could break Crono like a twig.

Best accessory description ever FYI.
"Item Description: Prismatic glasses that grant true power."
 
gunbo13 said:
That's a perma item boost for Robo in the form of a ribbon.
It doesn't help though since he is still terrible. ;)
Click to expand...
Ah so that explains it, thanks.
I used Robo more than any other character :(
 
gunbo13 said:
That's a perma item boost for Robo in the form of a ribbon.
It doesn't help though since he is still terrible. ;)
Click to expand...
(Final battle spoilers) Robo ain't that terrible. He's helped along by other characters during triple and double techs, though.

But Crono and Ayla are party essentials because they hit hard.
 
Nocturnowl said:
Ah so that explains it, thanks.
I used Robo more than any other character :(
Click to expand...
Ha, I'm just messing around. All the characters are good. That's the brilliance of the party system in CT. I can create awesome builds as long as I have one of the healers. And if I want, I'll either default to item boosting or massive damage.

Crono/Ayla/
Magus
can tear through the game with a decent item stash. With the DS, dual auto-haste on Crono/Ayla, 2/3 split on volt bite with prism specs (lol),
dark matter
+ gold stud...so broken I refuse to main it.

Dark Schala said:
(Final battle spoilers) Robo ain't that terrible. He's helped along by other characters during triple and double techs, though.

But Crono and Ayla are party essentials because they hit hard.
Click to expand...
Robo is just WAY to slow. The best builds in CT are haste builds. So logically Robo is the worst insert.

I would rank the top teams as follows (I'm not even considering teams without Crono)
[Crono][Marle][Ayla]
[Crono][Marle]
[Magus]
[Crono][Frog][Ayla]
[Crono][Frog]
[Magus]
[Crono][Marle][Frog]
[Crono][Marle][Lucca]
[Crono][Frog][Lucca]
[Crono][Frog][Robo]
[Crono][Robo][Lucca]
...

It just gets way to diminishing after that. So I would say there are around 7 teams to choose from before Robo should be considered.

EDIT:
Frog is the second best overall character in vanilla FYI. Marle is second in DS with the venus bow.
 
gunbo13 said:
Robo is just WAY to slow. The best builds in CT are haste builds. So logically Robo is the worst insert.
Click to expand...
Point taken. The best thing about Chrono Trigger is that the characters are usually balanced. Versatility is the strongest asset in this game, and a lot of the characters exhibit it. Even Robo (who, when paired with Frog and Crono can use Triple Raid, which is really cheap to use and does a lot of damage). People just play the game differently, so they use the characters that fit their playstyle. You seem to emphasize speed, which is perfectly fine with a Crono/Ayla/
Magus
party.

But I try to make the game more difficult by gimping the party in terms of special equipment, or kicking Ayla out of the party. I used a Marle/Lucca/Robo or Marle/Frog/Robo party for the last portion of the game without NG+ in both the SNES and PSX versions because it was kind of fun. All the characters have their own abilities which make them fun to handle in a sense, so trying to come up with strategies for the "harder" parties is interesting. Like other people have said in this thread, Chrono Trigger is not a hard game at all because a lot of the game is very balanced, so trying to find ways to make it difficult by not grinding, not using tabs, using less-than-stellar equipment, not using tabs, etc is a little fun in a way.

Though when I go through the game on a fresh new game or if I'm doing character sidequests, I like to use the relevant characters to that time period, or the ones that'll get good dialogue. It's just a personal preference. Nothing wrong with that.
 
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