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LTTP: Young Justice (Teen Titans was better)

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F

foxtrot3d

Banned
3946088-you.jpg


Alright, so I've been on a DCAU marathon this whole month rewatching all the greats from Batman, Superman, all the way you the Justice League. So, after exhausting all the greats again I decided to check out Young Justice upon the recommendation of GAF expecting to be blown away but have to say I'm severely disappointed in the show so far. Now, I've only finished the first season but I feel that is more than enough to judge the show especially since there is only one other season of the show.

SEASON 1 SPOILERS!!!

Now, the easiest comparison to Young Justice is of course the excellent Teen Titans, the original not that Go! crap. But, from the very first episode of YJ I was put off by the initial concept. So, after years of being sidekicks it's decided that all these teens are ready to be inducted into the official Justice League, at which point Batman and the elders tell them they'll have to wait to be trained and be officially selected in. But, rather than accept this as the next step they all decide to be bratty,
yes I know Speedy's anger is explained later
, and spit in the League's face. Then they all decide screw it and take on a League mission on their own that ends with the destruction of a city block, release of Superboy, and the destruction of a Cadmus facility that Batman had been slowly investigating. Yet, despite all of this and their steadfast bratty attitude after the mission Batman and the League decide to reward them all with their own "covert" unit.

*sigh*

Putting aide the ridiculous premise of "covert" JL ops run by kids, I just found that Teen Titans is just 100x more better than YJ. My problem with YJ is that it has no heart or soul, there is no real distinctive style to the show and it doesn't seem to be about anything. Teen Titans managed to be this very fun and light hearted show that reinforced the positive benefits of friendship and overcoming adversity together, whilst at the same time tackling very mature and adult themes. YJ on the other hand is a MUCH darker show than Teen Titans but without any maturity to it. The extent of violence just feels so out of place in YJ when at the same time it's injected with teenagers acting like teenagers. It's basically boils down to being edgy for the sake of being edgy, putting the teens in "dark" situations, having them dress darker, act tougher and be meaner but there's no point to it all. The villains aren't reflections of the characters, there's no greater commentary to everything, and the humor falls flat "Hello, Megan..."

Again, I think I could just sum up the show as lacking a soul and I can see why it was canceled. So, tell me GAF should I watch the last season? I watched the first episode and was immediately put off by the time skip which basically invalidated any sort of character development that occurred with any of the character so I really don't know if I want to continue. What's your opinion on the show GAF?
 
G

Goliath

Member
Keep watching......

I loved this show. Unlike in Teen Titans, things and characters change significantly in this show. There is a solid overarching theme and characters have meaningful relationships with each other unlike the Teen Titans bromance and High School crushes. I would also argue that unlike in Teen Titans that fact that the main adult superheroes played roles in the storyline made a lot more sense then in Teen Titans where these kids are taking on bad guys that threaten the world or large cities and no big superhero is made aware of this. It's like, "whelp, not my shift". I think YJ did a lot to show how these top teir superheroes who trained their wards had trouble letting go and giving them the opportunity to take on solo missions. Yea things get damaged but no more so then any other superhero encounter including many Teen Titan episodes but at least there was some sense of supervision through Batman. Teen Titans had these similiar characters just living solo in an obvious location taking on missions as they see fit without any aid or advice. I liked both shows and own them both on DVD and Blu ray but this show was heavy on story and action while Teen Titans was heavy on comedy and action with story third.

I mean you see Superboy struggle with getting the approval of Superman and Superman struggle with knowing he was cloned and having to face him.

These situations are interesting and way more adult than what went on in Teen Titans where basically Deathstroke had a hard on for Robin for like 5 Seasons. And let's also remember Teen Titans had 5 seasons and a movie to flesh out it's characters. Unfortunately YJ only had two seasons but still managed to have a significant impact.

It's no surprise this show is solid. Greg Weisman was involved (Think Gargoyles, Spectacular Spiderman, etc).
 
W

Wiseblade

Member
First off, I just want to say that I respect you putting a controversial opinion right in the OP.

foxtrot3d said:
Now, the easiest comparison to Young Justice is of course the excellent Teen Titans, the original not that Go! crap. But, from the very first episode of YJ I was put off by the initial concept. So, after years of being sidekicks it's decided that all these teens are ready to be inducted into the official Justice League, at which point Batman and the elders tell them they'll have to wait to be trained and be officially selected in. But, rather than accept this as the next step they all decide to be bratty,
yes I know Speedy's anger is explained later
, and spit in the League's face. Then they all decide screw it and take on a League mission on their own that ends with the destruction of a city block, release of Superboy, and the destruction of a Cadmus facility that Batman had been slowly investigating. Yet, despite all of this and their steadfast bratty attitude after the mission Batman and the League decide to reward them all with their own "covert" unit.

*sigh*

Putting aide the ridiculous premise of "covert" JL ops run by kids, I just found that Teen Titans is just 100x more better than YJ. My problem with YJ is that it has no heart or soul, there is no real distinctive style to the show and it doesn't seem to be about anything. Teen Titans managed to be this very fun and light hearted show that reinforced the positive benefits of friendship and overcoming adversity together, whilst at the same time tackling very mature and adult themes. YJ on the other hand is a MUCH darker show than Teen Titans but without any maturity to it. The extent of violence just feels so out of place in YJ when at the same time it's injected with teenagers acting like teenagers. It's basically boils down to being edgy for the sake of being edgy, putting the teens in "dark" situations, having them dress darker, act tougher and be meaner but there's no point to it all. The villains aren't reflections of the characters, there's no greater commentary to everything, and the humor falls flat "Hello, Megan..."

Again, I think I could just sum up the show as lacking a soul and I can see why it was canceled. So, tell me GAF should I watch the last season? I watched the first episode and was immediately put off by the time skip which basically invalidated any sort of character development that occurred with any of the character so I really don't know if I want to continue. What's your opinion on the show GAF?
Click to expand...

...But I completely disagree with your reasoning! Young Justice definitely builds a solid identity for itself and arguably does as good a job of creating a compelling world as the DCAU, without nearly as much material. By making a show focused on traditionally supporting characters, it had the freedom to make some unique decisions on character traits and personalities that just can't be done with more established ones.

YJ does what great animated adaptations of comic books do by exposing the audience to more obscure elements of the DCU. Teen Titans does it as well, but it's nowhere near as elegant. TT took on a "Character of the week" format at times while YJ feels like you're gradually being exposed to more of that world.

Of course YJ feels like a more serious, grimdark show than TT. Because most of the time, nothing was at stake in Teen Titans. But YJ doesn't mope around or dedicate screen time to navel-gazing. People just have a lot on their plates and deal with it. YJ simply does a great job of portraying what it on the line if the heroes fail, which is something even the DCAU struggled with.

TL;DR:
iZYgypGfCbp15.gif
 
S

Sheroking

Member
It's clearly from the Avatar school of cartoons. Smart, well written and well acted - though I dislike the sidekick premise.

Someone tried to tell me it was as good as TAS before I watched it and no, son, it is not.
 
F

foxtrot3d

Banned
Goliath said:
Keep watching......

I loved this show. Unlike in Teen Titans, things and characters change significantly in this show. There is a solid overarching theme and characters have meaningful relationships with each other unlike the Teen Titans bromance and High School crushes.

I mean you see Superboy struggle with getting the approval of Superman and Superman struggle with knowing he was cloned and having to face him.

These situations are interesting and way more adult than what went on in Teen Titans where basically Deathstroke had a hard on for Robin for like 5 Seasons. And let's also remember Teen Titans had 5 seasons and a movie to flesh out it's characters. Unfortunately YJ only had two seasons but still managed to have a significant impact.

It's no surprise this show is solid. Greg Weisman was involved (Think Gargoyles, Spectacular Spiderman, etc).
Click to expand...

First off I find the whole Superman being a dick kinda stupid and contrived. This is the same Superman that took Kara (Supergirl) in and treated her like family but suddenly won't give the time of day to his clone because "ewww clone." At the very least he would recognize that a clone with his powers could potentially be a threat and should be observed very closely. And I've yet to find anything YJ tackle more adult than Teen Titans, from the very first season TT was telling very personal stories about these characters and developing them. And of course it had significant "bromance" and "HS crushes" they were Teens, unlike these weirdo Young Justice teens who just act inconsistent based on what the episode calls for. Teen Titans actually had the balls to do an episode that tackled racism one in which the racist doesn't suddenly learn some new insight in the end, he stays a racist and the Titans boot him.

Wiseblade said:
First off, I just want to say that I respect you putting a controversial opinion right in the OP.


...But I completely disagree with your reasoning! Young Justice definitely builds a solid identity for itself and arguably does as good a job of creating a compelling world as the DCAU, without nearly as much material. By making a show focused on traditionally supporting characters, it had the freedom to make some unique decisions on character traits and personalities that just can't be done with more established ones.

YJ does what great animated adaptations of comic books do by exposing the audience to more obscure elements of the DCU. Teen Titans does it as well, but it's nowhere near as elegant. TT took on a "Character of the week" format at times while YJ feels like you're gradually being exposed to more of that world.
Click to expand...

That's what the Justice League animated series was far, an AMAZING show. Teen Titans smartly chose to focus on the Titans and conflicts actual teens could relate to. They never had Batman or any mainline superhero show up to complicate things, you didn't have to ponder about character keeping their secret identities, it was all about the Titans and their relationship whilst at the same time using them to explore mature themes.
 
G

Goliath

Member
foxtrot3d said:
First off I find the whole Superman being a dick kinda stupid and contrived. This is the same Superman that took Kara (Supergirl) in and treated her like family but suddenly won't give the time of day to his clone because "ewww clone." At the very least he would recognize that a clone with his powers could potentially be a threat and should be observed very closely. And I've yet to find anything YJ tackle more adult than Teen Titans, from the very first season TT was telling very personal stories about these characters and developing them. And of course it had significant "bromance" and "HS crushes" they were Teens, unlike these weirdo Young Justice teens who just act inconsistent based on what the episode calls for. Teen Titans actually had the balls to do an episode that tackled racism one in which the racist doesn't suddenly learn some new insight in the end, he stays a racist and the Titans boot him.
Click to expand...

Actually if you continue to watch YJ you will see race play a part and self image, violations of privacy etc. There are many adult themes that are fleshed out. I mean Captain Planet and many other Saturday morning cartoons took on topic like race as well. Didn't make them more mature per say.

As for your criticism of Superman I think your missing the point. Superman accepting Kara (which didn't happen in this show so is irrelevant) is VASTLY different then him accepting Superboy. For one Kara is his family. If I recall correctly she is his blood cousin so that is HUGE for him. Her reason for coming to earth was originally for her to look after him, of course things happened.

Superboy's existance however is more of a violation to Superman. To think that a whole department was developed for the sole purpose of cloning him and using that clone as a weapon. That's some tough stuff to swallow. Especially when the clone originally attacked the heroes. The fact that Superman had a moment of weakness and it took time to trust and understand Superboy shows how much more mature the show is from the easy "Hey superman is the perfect understanding being".

Then watch what happen between Superboy and Meggan next season. There is no way you can say these aren't far more complex relationships then in Teen Titans.

foxtrot3d said:
That's what the Justice League animated series was far, an AMAZING show. Teen Titans smartly chose to focus on the Titans and conflicts actual teens could relate to. They never had Batman or any mainline superhero show up to complicate things, you didn't have to ponder about character keeping their secret identities, it was all about the Titans and their relationship whilst at the same time using them to explore mature themes
Click to expand...

What you are discribing is the opposite of mature themes. They oversimplified Teen Titans to focus around 5 main characters and ignored the rest of DCU heroes or the trials of secret identities, living a personal life, families, etc. and just focused on the "freak of the week".
 
W

Wiseblade

Member
foxtrot3d said:
That's what the Justice League animated series was far, an AMAZING show. Teen Titans smartly chose to focus on the Titans and conflicts actual teens could relate to. They never had Batman or any mainline superhero show up to complicate things, you didn't have to ponder about character keeping their secret identities, it was all about the Titans and their relationship whilst at the same time using them to explore mature themes.
Click to expand...

The DCAU also had like a million episodes to establish everything. Young Justice only had 56.

And the "no secret identities" element of Teen Titans is one of the flaws, IMO. TT Robin isn't Dick Greyson or Jason Todd or anyone. He's just "Robin", which takes something away from that character. You remove a lot of baggage you strip away a Secret Identity, but you also strip away what grounds them. YJ Robin knew EVERYONE'S secret identities while nobody knew his, which says something about this personality. TT Robin has a blank space where that aspect of his personality would be. Characters like Starfire and Raven, who had their lives outside of Titan-dom explored felt like more complete characters as a result.
 
D

DaveH

Member
Wiseblade said:
The DCAU also had like a million episodes to establish everything. Young Justice only had 56.
Click to expand...
~378 episodes (300 if you subtract Static Shock and Zeta Project, and some amount of webisodes) and not including motion pictures or direct-to-disc features which do or arguably occur within the same continuity. Given that sweep, things are only loosely glued together.

By comparison, the Young Justice world-building bible is a tight as a drum and felt extremely coherent (maybe a little too much, sometimes, but I'd rather err on the side of logically over-designed than accidentally contradictory).
 
F

foxtrot3d

Banned
Goliath said:
What you are discribing is the opposite of mature themes. They oversimplified Teen Titans to focus around 5 main characters and ignored the rest of DCU heroes or the trials of secret identities, living a personal life, families, etc. and just focused on the "freak of the week".
Click to expand...

Exploring more of the DCU has nothing to do with "maturity" that is just fan service. Teen Titans effectively boiled down their show to what mattered and created a powerful show as a result. They didn't focus on any of the irrelevant extraneous nonsense that would have added nothing to do the show and only further complicated things, for instance look at YJ. Please explain to me the school and family life of these characters. We know that they go to school but for the first season we basically never see it happen except once and are unsure as to when they would be going. Then some of these characters have parents who for some reason are perfectly okay with their 13 year old going about on deadly missions whilst skipping class. It makes no sense. And, is virtually never explored, besides Atermis no one has a real burden to keep their identity secret and it didn't matter in the end for Artemis. On top of this, assuming the show is geared towards teens how exactly does something like a "secret super hero identity" even remotely relatable to them? It may create drama, but show doesn't make it meaningful in any way.

TT doesn't have these problems, the Titans all live in the tower together and we don't have to worry about thinking about school or secret identities rather we can just focus on the characters. And while TT was often a "monster of the week" show i.e. episodic, so was Batman TAS, yet neither shows focused on the monster. Every episode of TT has a central theme that it is trying to get across, whether that be racism, learning to be yourself, growing up, etc. YJ just never felt that way to me, the stories felt more about moving along the plot than actually developing characters or bringing about mature themes. I mean what exactly is the purpose of "The Light?" So far they're just a collection of bad guys they have no connection to the teens, there is no interesting dichotomy as you had between Slade and Robin, and no political commentary as you had with Cadmus in the JL.
 
K

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I liked Young Justice more than TT, but I always got the feeling Greg "world building is my middle name" Weisman really was using the show as a stealth DCAU 2.0. YJ quickly became not so much about one young team, but about people growing up in the DC universe, tied to the superhero business whether they liked it or not. The season 2 time jump made it clear this wasn't a retread of Teen Titans. The characters were becoming major players themselves. "The Fourth World is Coming" was a growing shadow for the entire run of the show.

As a result the show was very broad in scope and maybe that hurt individual character development and one-off stories. There is also the issue that the story is basically incomplete. Whatever it was building towards we won't see.
 
F

freeofgreed

Member
foxtrot3d said:
I honestly don't understand the love. Mediocre show with poor character development, poor plot, and dark for the sake of dark.
Click to expand...

Good job judging the show before you even finished it. It's fine if you didn't like it but you're second sentence is completely subjective.

As for your question, I personally enjoyed season 2 way more then season 1 and I felt like this is where the show really came into it's own, it got weaker towards the second half but the it's still very strong. Also you need to stop comparing it to TT, they are completely different beasts. TT was a show about a group of teens forming a super hero team, YJ is an adaptation of the entire DCU with just a focus on the younger heros.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
You should really watch the second season...I enjoyed watching the first season with my daughter but it was still just a cartoon for kids. It became something much more in its second act, and it's a damn shame they weren't able to finish telling their story.

I say give S2 a few eps, if you still don't like it then it really isn't for you. Your DCAU marathon won't be complete without it!
 
J

Just_myles

Member
Show gets much better. Keep watching OP. Teen Titans was cool for what it was, but this show was soo much better. Disappointing what happened to it. Must have been a merchandising thing.
 
F

flaxknuckles

Member
I don't want to watch this show just to end up disappointed that it won't get another season, so I'll agree with you that it is weaksauce.
 
F

foxtrot3d

Banned
echoshifting said:
You should really watch the second season...I enjoyed watching the first season with my daughter but it was still just a cartoon for kids. It became something much more in its second act, and it's a damn shame they weren't able to finish telling their story.

I say give S2 a few eps, if you still don't like it then it really isn't for you. Your DCAU marathon won't be complete without it!
Click to expand...

I mean I'll finish watching it just because I have nothing else to watch right now besides the Teen Titans marathon I'm blowing through concurrently, I just was not impressed at all by the first season of YJ. Again, I'm not one who believes darker=mature/adult, the JL animated series managed to be a fun light hearted romp but had serious adult themes and political commentary throughout. The Cadmus arc remains the greatest thing I have ever witnessed in animated TV.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
foxtrot3d said:
I mean I'll finish watching it just because I have nothing else to watch right now besides the Teen Titans marathon I'm blowing through concurrently, I just was not impressed at all by the first season of YJ. Again, I'm not one who believes darker=mature/adult, the JL animated series managed to be a fun light hearted romp but had serious adult themes and political commentary throughout. The Cadmus arc remains the greatest thing I have ever witnessed in animated TV.
Click to expand...

Well, good. Check back in and let us know what you think!

I won't defend the banal edginess of S1, though I didn't find it as pronounced or off-putting as you did. S2 is just as dark, if not darker, but it's all justified in a much more satisfying way. I hope you enjoy it.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
Ive been marathoning this show of late and I'm almost done with the series, and I have to say that I disagree with the OP completely.

The animation quality is also very strong, although it looks like they got a cheaper studio in Season 2. It's still good, but the quality was very high in season 1. Some great fight choreography as well.

I love the version of Batman in this as well.
 
S

Sho_Nuff82

Member
If you're awaiting complex themes, you need to get your hands on S2. Shit gets real for quite a few of the relationships.

The biggest flaw is that their world-building still depended on the show getting at least one more season, and several characters get jobbed repeatedly for the sake of brevity (you can't have a dramatic 10 min fight scene every episode, after all). Is that a spoiler?
 
D

DedValve

Banned
I saw this last month. I fucking fell in love then came to tears when I finished S2.

I put this over Teen Titans only because they fleshed out so many superheroes. I still love Teen Titans though and totally get that they went for different vibes (with TT being able to seamlessly flip flop from goofy to grim in a great way).

S2 spoilers
I fucking screamed of hype when I saw Tim, saw Nightwing and figured out who beastboy was.
 
Z

ZoddGutts

Member
Didn't care much for this series either. People keep saying that it was great but it really wasn't, too many flaws to overlook, mainly it's unlikeable characters.
 
V

VeeP

Member
Disagree so much. Young Justice > Teen Titans. If I saw Teen Titans today I probably wouldn't make it through the first season tbh.
 
F

foxtrot3d

Banned
VeeP said:
Disagree so much. Young Justice > Teen Titans. If I saw Teen Titans today I probably wouldn't make it through the first season tbh.
Click to expand...

I am on the final TT season right now after ploughing through the series again and am loving every second, the show holds up very well in my opinion. Unlike what I saw with the first season of YJ, TT actually has a heart and soul.
 
S

Slayven

Member
My only problem with the show is that it had Superboy Boy of Moping around. With the worse costume in comic history.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
Slayven said:
My only problem with the show is that it had Superboy Boy of Moping around. With the worse costume in comic history.
Click to expand...

S2 gets rids of this.

Also makes sense given his origins. And his main genetic connection--Superman--treated him like crap.
 
S

Slayven

Member
entrement said:
S2 gets rids of this.

Also makes sense given his origins. And his main genetic connection--Superman--treated him like crap.
Click to expand...

Oh I watched that. Fuck I noise. I liked it better in comics. Superboy treating Superman like an old man, And then they settle into a big brother/little brother type of relationship. After Superboy made a name for himself.
 
K

Kabuto

Member
This thread is dumb since OP is comparing the entire 65 episodes of Teen Titans to only the first season of Young Justice, which is unfair.

The second season of Young Justice is amazing and is better than any season of Teen Titans IMO.
 
S

Schweinehund

Member
The team grows together as the show goes on. I enjoyed it, was a little disappointed when it was cancelled.

Slayven said:
Oh I watched that. Fuck I noise. I liked it better in comics. Superboy treating Superman like an old man, And then they settle into a big brother/little brother type of relationship. After Superboy made a name for himself.
Click to expand...

Seemed wierd, Bruce was the "cool dad" even Diana was a bit of a jerk.
 
E

EulaCapra

Member
I came to accept that Young Justice barely had any enjoyable character interaction dynamics at all and just stuck for the action and to see who pops up in each episode. And if it did, only a handful got some good moments (Miss Martian, Artemis, Aqualad, Roy Harper, Blue Beetle).

Too bad it was all bogged down by not spreading screen time or writing ANY dialogue to the rest of the cast which incidentally kept growing. You decide to introduce new interesting characters like Zatanna, Rocket, Wonder Girl, Bumblebee, Tim Drake, Batgirl, Mal Duncan, etc. and you're still going on about Blue Beetle, the Justice League, and Miss Martian/Superboy?

I would be so excited to see Wonder Girl fighting in an episode only to realize that she didn't even utter a single word the whole episode.
 
MiguelMexMIstery

MiguelMexMIstery

Member
Originally I disliked YJ and found it boring compared to TT, mostly because half of the main cast didn't click on me, but after watching season two I completely fell in love with the show. Blue Beetle and Impulse <3 Too bad the 3DS videogame sucks.
 
S

Shaanyboi

Banned
Completely disagree. The show was fantastic. Also you're not at all selling TT as the "more mature show" to me at all. It was a Saturday morning cartoon with lesson-of-the-week arcs and that was about it. Well made for its audience and I don't want to sound condescending towards it, but its characters didn't have nearly the complexity that YJ's cast did.
 
T

The Adder

Banned
Slayven said:
The OG

328926-122639-superboy.jpg


But I will take Black Zero in a pinch

BlackZero.png
Click to expand...

Conner is my 2nd favorite superhero, and you and I both know those costumes are terrible.

The original actually looks pretty decent once they adjust the volume on the 90s knob down, though.

Sibersk Esto said:
I like it too, except I think the leather jacket clashes too much. I like the color coded jacket combined with the classic one
Superboy-Conner-2.jpg

(The one in the middle)
Click to expand...

There we go.
 
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