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[shantyman]

http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/36120.html

So, bottom line, are PCs cheaper than Macs? No, despite what you read in the PC press, it's the other way around. Compare Apples to apples, and Macs are cheaper than PCs.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

oh nos

 

[xsarien]

Man, this is going to be good...

 

[Brofist]

So Dell = all PCs now?

 

[demon]

What the fuck? I built a great PC for no more than a third of what the average Mac cost, not even taking into account the latest ones. Crock of shit.

 

[SteveMeister]

99% of PC buyers don't build PC's, though. They buy brand-name pre-made PC's. That's what he's comparing.

 

[xsarien]

What the fuck? I built a great PC for no more than a third of what the average Mac cost, not even taking into account the latest ones. Crock of shit.

The article doesn't take into account home-built PCs, because the majority of the market doesn't do that.

 

[Brofist]

but does Dell account for 99% of PCs sold..cause that's all he's basing his comparison on.

 

[maharg]

You can buy prebuilt computers that aren't built by a large (inter)national computer company like Dell.

 

[xsarien]

but does Dell account for 99% of PCs sold..cause that's all he's basing his comparison on.

Unless things have changed recently, they're still on top of PC sales by a decent margin. Choosing one company and running with it was the only viable way to do this comparison, only Apple makes Apples.

 

[Lord Error]

It's all fine and dandy, and many a time I've been tempted to sell my crappy PC and buy some high end Mac so that I can have something fresh and new, especially now that I don't even play games on a computer... but...

Macs are just not an all purpose machine that I sorely need. For example, they don't have a fragment of all the quirky CD image editing software that I have on the PC. Can I copy an ISO file I made out of my import PS2 game to a PS2 HDD using a Mac? HELL NO. Noone will ever bother to write a software for Mac that does that, or if someone bothers that's going to be months after the original on the PC came out. So I want to run this EXE installer that will install some software on my Pocket PC? Tough luck. How am I going to do that on the Mac? Low profile type of software of that kind, is completely (or almost completely) non existing on the Mac, and it would force me to basically keep two computers on the same desk, which I have no intention of doing. Thus, Mac looks good to me only on the superficial level of having something shinier and cooler than my old computer.

I'm not even going into the price issue. Comparing only Dell with Apple is utterly ridiculous from the consumer standpoint, when I can buy cheaper from other dealers, or build my own machine for even less. It's Apple's problem that I can't do the same with Macs, not mine.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

God do we even need damage control for PCs? Don't they like own 99% of the market?!! JEEZ

 

[maharg]

only Apple makes Apples.

For most people for whom the cost issue is a problem, that is WHY it's a problem.

 

[xsarien]

For most people for whom the cost issue is a problem, that is WHY it's a problem.

And on the opposite side of that argument, you find why they're remarkably more stable than PCs.

 

[SteveMeister]

It's all fine and dandy, and many a time I've been tempted to sell my crappy PC and buy some high end Mac so that I can have something fresh and new, especially now that I don't even play games on a computer... but...

Macs are just not an all purpose machine that I sorely need. For example, they don't have a fragment of all the quirky CD image editing software that I have on the PC. Can I copy an ISO file I made out of my import PS2 game to a PS2 HDD using a Mac? HELL NO. Noone will ever bother to write a software for Mac that does that, or if someone bothers that's going to be months after the original on the PC came out. So I want to run this EXE installer that will install some software on my Pocket PC? Tough luck. How am I going to do that on the Mac? Low profile type of software of that kind, is completely (or almost completely) non existing on the Mac, and it would force me to basically keep two computers on the same desk, which I have no intention of doing. Thus, Mac looks good to me only on the superficial level of having something shinier and cooler than my old computer.

There's always VirtualPC. Run any Windows OS on your Mac. It won't work for 3D games, but it should certainly work for the kind of thing you're talking about.

 

[maharg]

And on the opposite side of that argument, you find why they're remarkably more stable than PCs.

Wait, I thought we were talking about cost here. Nice derailment.

 

[Brofist]

Unless things have changed recently, they're still on top of PC sales by a decent margin. Choosing one company and running with it was the only viable way to do this comparison, only Apple makes Apples.

but they account for less than 20% of the PC market share. For the article to be more credible, it should have taken into account the other 80%. And Dell isn't even in the lower tier of pricing for PCs..

 

[StrikerObi]

For most people for whom the cost issue is a problem, that is WHY it's a problem.

Hey, you get what you pay for. And for what you pay for a Mac, you get a computer that fucking works without fail day in and day out that doesn't require near as much bullshit maintence as a PC.

 

[xsarien]

but they account for less than 20% of the PC market share. For the article to be more credible, it should have taken into account the other 80%. And Dell isn't even in the lower tier of pricing for PCs..

Without singling out one company (or saying "I can build one,") how else do you propose to do a price comparison?

 

[maharg]

Hey, you get what you pay for. And for what you pay for a Mac, you get a computer that fucking works without fail day in and day out that doesn't require near as much bullshit maintence as a PC.

Funny, that describes every PC I've had that ran some form of Windows NT, FreeBSD, or Linux. Again, nice derailment from something that can be objectively verified into pissing contests over subjective things.

 

[Brofist]

And on the opposite side of that argument, you find why they're remarkably more stable than PCs.

with 3 programs available it should run remarkably stable...

...i kid

 

[Lord Error]

There's always VirtualPC. Run any Windows OS on your Mac. It won't work for 3D games, but it should certainly work for the kind of thing you're talking about.

Yeah, but if I'm going with a huge inconvenience like that, I might as well keep two computers on my desk. Besides, I doubt Virtual PC allows for some low level IDE hardware emulation that I'd, for example, need for that PS2 image transfer.

 

[xsarien]

Funny, that describes every PC I've had that ran some form of Windows NT, FreeBSD, or Linux. Again, nice derailment from something that can be objectively verified into pissing contests over subjective things.

It's not really a derailment. Part of the Apple "premium" is getting OSX, which is designed by people with direct access to the hardware. It's not a menagerie of drivers from different vendors like a Windows-based PC.

 

[Brofist]

Without singling out one company (or saying "I can build one,") how else do you propose to do a price comparison?

i don't know..try the top 5 or 10 companies maybe...pick a handful of random PCs in the same class. it's not that difficult really. When comparing TVs, would you only mention Sony and forget the other brands...for cars would you only compare Hondas?

 

[Brofist]

It's not really a derailment. Part of the Apple "premium" is getting OSX, which is designed by people with direct access to the hardware. It's not a menagerie of drivers from different vendors like a Windows-based PC.

with PCs you get a ton of different hardware configs compared to Macs...you expect there can be 1 universal driver?

 

[xsarien]

i don't know..try the top 5 or 10 companies maybe...pick a handful of random PCs in the same class. it's not that difficult really. When comparing TVs, would you only mention Sony and forget the other brands...for cars would you only compare Hondas?

And how would you reconcile the price differences between those 5-10 companies? For the sake of this particular article, one company was more that sufficient to prove the pretty simple point that "No, Apples aren't always the most expensive solution."

with PCs you get a ton of different hardware configs compared to Macs...you expect there can be 1 universal driver?

Certainly not, I was just stating why the OS probably drives the cost of a Mac up a little.

 

[maharg]

It's not really a derailment. Part of the Apple "premium" is getting OSX, which is designed by people with direct access to the hardware. It's not a menagerie of drivers from different vendors like a Windows-based PC.

It's not that hard to use hardware that is well known to work well. You're actually more likely to get that out of a local dealer than out of a big company like Dell, in fact, in my experience. If your hardware is chosen well, you get much the same effect, and again for a lower cost.

I have plenty of anecdotal evidence that contradicts yours and others' about NT-based Windows, so that's all moot. Like I said, subjective pissing matches are lame. I don't see how anyone can argue that on average, a PC will cost less than a mac for similar grade components.

You might get better support out of Apple than you do out of a local dealer or even Dell, but consumers can decide if that's in their interests. Personally, I think any cost-advantage analysis should also include the pretty much yearly full-cost upgrades to OSX you need to buy to keep up to date.

And how would you reconcile the price differences between those 5-10 companies? For the sake of this particular article, one company was more that sufficient to prove the pretty simple point that "No, Apples aren't always the most expensive solution."

How would you reconcile them? Have you ever heard of averages? I mean, seriously. It's not like this is hard math or something. You take a random sample based on a baseline configuration and you find the average price. Perhaps weighted by marketshare.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

this is an old mac fan trick

http://gflpraxis.no-ip.com/mvp-price.html

 

[Brofist]

And how would you reconcile the price differences between those 5-10 companies? For the sake of this particular article, one company was more that sufficient to prove the pretty simple point that "No, Apples aren't always the most expensive solution."
.

I understand your point, and my arguement isn't even that Apple is the most expensive alternative out there..just that Dell is far from the only PC vendor that's all.

 

[Matlock]

Sort of off topic, but I'm in love with the 12" white ibook. In another two-three years, I can fully see myself getting an Apple laptop and a HP desktop (might as well, all the rest of my computer shit is HP).

 

[xsarien]

I have plenty of anecdotal evidence that contradicts yours and others' about NT-based Windows, so that's all moot. Like I said, subjective pissing matches are lame. I don't see how anyone can argue that on average, a PC will cost less than a mac for similar grade components.

Wow, anecdotal evidence? Peachy. I have plenty that proves my theory. What a predicament, huh?

How would you reconcile them? Have you ever heard of averages? I mean, seriously. It's not like this is hard math or something. You take a random sample based on a baseline configuration and you find the average price. Perhaps weighted by marketshare.

Except that the averaged prices wouldn't take into account varying hardware configurations and how different vendors charge shockingly different amounts for those components. That, and eMachines would just throw everything off.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

hugs my powerbook I don't care I worked hard for it and it survived Hurricane Frances!

 

[maharg]

Wow, anecdotal evidence? Peachy. I have plenty that proves my theory. What a predicament, huh?

Except that the averaged prices wouldn't take into account varying hardware configurations and how different vendors charge shockingly different amounts for those components. That, and eMachines would just throw everything off.

You should try reading a little more carefuly:
- I said pissing matches are moot. That means irrelevant. I have no stability issues with my NT/XP machines, you have none with your mac. Yes, that leaves us in a predicament, thus I said it's *irrelevant*.
- I said take a baseline configuration. Oh and, how exactly should eMachines *NOT* throw things off? They're huge. Tons of people buy computers from them.

 

[xsarien]

You should try reading a little more carefuly:
- I said pissing matches are moot. That means irrelevant. I have no stability issues with my NT/XP machines, you have none with your mac. Yes, that leaves us in a predicament, thus I said it's *irrelevant*.

I don't have a Mac. I wish I did, but Adobe and their lack of cross-platform upgrades kinda sabotages the whole deal for now.

And man, you know the point of the article is to simply say that Apple isn't the most expensive option, right? It's not saying "Apple is actually cheaper than any comparable PC solution, period."

Since, you know, we're on reading comprehension...

 

[bishoptl]

Can you sit comfortably upon a PC? I think not!

 

[xsarien]

Can you sit comfortably upon a PC? I think not!

I bet Shogmaster can build a better couch.

 

[maharg]

"Worldwide, Dell continued to hammer the heck out of HP, growing its market share to 18.3% worldwide, compared to 15.7% for the Cupertino Kids. IBM accounted for 6.5% of shipments, while Fujitsu Siemens managed a 3.2% figure. Acer shipments were 3.2% of the cake, while the "Others" accounted for an outstanding and astounding 52.6% of the 39,733,000 pie.

The figures for the USA are Dell (32.9% ), HP (19.3%), Gateway (5.6%), IBM (5.6%) and Apple (3.7%). The Others Corporation accounted for 32.9%. Total shipments in the USA amounted to 13,357,000 machines. µ"
- http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17251

There you have the actual weightings to use. If Dell dominated the market by 50% or more, worldwide or in the US, using ONLY them would make sense. If you really wanted to measure, you'd take a weighted average of a specific configuration among Dell, HP, Gateway, and IBM. That would be far more fair. I'm not sure if it would be much different, but it could be.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

maharg: if you really wanted to I think you have enough knowledge to compare Dell, HP, Gateway, and IBM VS. Apple pricing

 

[maharg]

Yeah but I'm much lazier than the person who did the article in the first place. I only feel a need to point out that it is not necessarily reflective of realistic pricing, not to prove the point myself.

 

[Shogmaster]

I bet Shogmaster can build a better couch.

NO ONE CAN COME CLOSE TO MY COUCH MANUFACTURING SKILLZ!!!!!!!!!!