I always hear about how much people hate slivers. Is there a reason?The_Technomancer said:So yeah last night in four player EDH, one guy was running Slivers and another one was running Elves.
Elf dude dropped a Mirror Entity, and then pumped a lot of mana into it. Yeah, he won
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- Thread starter The Technomancer
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The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Its a powerful strategy that, depending on how you look at it, takes barely any skill to play. You draw slivers. You play the slivers. Your slivers are now awesome.alternade said:
Only noobs play slivers was always the saying from most geeks when the deck was popular. There was one guy who would show up to every legacy tournament with a sliver deck, it was the only thing he owned. He would clean house and then disappear again for a few months, probably to buy more slivers to rub all over himself.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Last night was especially annoying because I was running my Triplets artifact deck, and he dropped a Hibernation Sliver on turn 2 and a Harmonic Sliver on turn three, so I couldn't play anything if I wanted it to last, and my removal was useless.
The_Technomancer said:
I have Iona in my Sissay deck and the looks on people's faces when I play her must have been similar to the look on your face after hibernation sliver and harmonic sliver came out.
I was playing a 4 player game against three opponents who were playing mono black. Dropping Iona and naming black was completely dickish of me but way too hilarious to pass up.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Oh I know its beatable. Its just incredibly annoying to play against.zoukka said:
I am trading some MTG extra stuff for PS3 games (and some PS2 games mainly Shin Megami Tensei, Kingdom Hearts, Fatal Frame series stuff) and also looking for a good fight stick (IE: Madcatz TE edition).
Have everything from Jace, the Mind Sculptor to Koth to Tezz to Titans, to Kargan Dragonlords to Bitter Blossom and Cryptic Commands and much more in between.
Just figure I will throw it out here.
Not getting out by any means, just thinning the tradebook.
Have everything from Jace, the Mind Sculptor to Koth to Tezz to Titans, to Kargan Dragonlords to Bitter Blossom and Cryptic Commands and much more in between.
Just figure I will throw it out here.
Not getting out by any means, just thinning the tradebook.
I have went to another beginner tourney, this time with my annoying but at least "original" idea of "control/infect/proliferate" black/blue deck.
I placed 11th out of 14th (last week: 3rd out of 12, with white/red horde...), it was an interesting experience, and my losses were due to unwanted cards being in my hands and/or no black mana with black spells and no blue lands and having 6 blue spells sitting in my hand...
The basic concept is this:
SPLEAD THE CWEEP - I mean spread the -1/-1 counters to everything that moves:
4*Contagion Clasp
4*Virulent Wound
4*Fume Spitter
-----------------------
Okay, now I have my opponent without any living creatures or a lot of weakened ones. How do I proliferate? (Other than Contagion Clasp, ofc)
-----------------------
4*Thrummingbird
1*Throne of Geth (need more maybe)
3*Fuel for the Cause (counter target spell, then proliferate)
1*Steady Progress (Draw a card, proliferate)
----------------------
So how do I actually kill my opponent? With infect, of course. For this, we need:
----------------------
4*Painsmith
4*Vector Asp
4*Piston Sledge (+3/+1, no equip cost at first? HUGE!)
1*Phyrexian Crusader (need more, way more)
4*Tainted Strike (+1/+0 until end of turn, gains infect also until end of turn)
This was my "plan". It works wonderfully against a goblin deck, against any kind of hard-hitting horde deck and to a certain extent, against greens ( we are not talking tourney-winner deck fights of course, more like in a not-so-serious but still -level
), but it has zero, I mean zero chance against UW control... I cant wait for NP to come and allow me more variety with keeping the spine of this build
Having a non-infecting Thrummingbird with two Piston Sledge attacked to it, flying, 7/3, proliferate - scary shit. What would have happened if I actually draw the Tainted Strike for it also, damn
I placed 11th out of 14th (last week: 3rd out of 12, with white/red horde...), it was an interesting experience, and my losses were due to unwanted cards being in my hands and/or no black mana with black spells and no blue lands and having 6 blue spells sitting in my hand...
The basic concept is this:
SPLEAD THE CWEEP - I mean spread the -1/-1 counters to everything that moves:
4*Contagion Clasp
4*Virulent Wound
4*Fume Spitter
-----------------------
Okay, now I have my opponent without any living creatures or a lot of weakened ones. How do I proliferate? (Other than Contagion Clasp, ofc)
-----------------------
4*Thrummingbird
1*Throne of Geth (need more maybe)
3*Fuel for the Cause (counter target spell, then proliferate)
1*Steady Progress (Draw a card, proliferate)
----------------------
So how do I actually kill my opponent? With infect, of course. For this, we need:
----------------------
4*Painsmith
4*Vector Asp
4*Piston Sledge (+3/+1, no equip cost at first? HUGE!)
1*Phyrexian Crusader (need more, way more)
4*Tainted Strike (+1/+0 until end of turn, gains infect also until end of turn)
This was my "plan". It works wonderfully against a goblin deck, against any kind of hard-hitting horde deck and to a certain extent, against greens ( we are not talking tourney-winner deck fights of course, more like in a not-so-serious but still -level
), but it has zero, I mean zero chance against UW control... I cant wait for NP to come and allow me more variety with keeping the spine of this build Having a non-infecting Thrummingbird with two Piston Sledge attacked to it, flying, 7/3, proliferate - scary shit. What would have happened if I actually draw the Tainted Strike for it also, damn
I proxied in mental misstep and beast within and tested them in some of my current legacy decks and woooooooooooooooooow. Mental misstep especially is going to be HUGE in legacy. It can severely trip up such a huge portion of top tier decks its amazing. Aether Vial, brainstorm, goblin lackey, mother of runes, dark ritual, noble heirach, thoughtseize, divining top...all countered before you even have to play a land. So so so good. Mental misstep will be a very valuable uncommon, I expect it to be a 30 dollar card after phreyxia goes out of print and a few years pass. It will be in so many legacy decks it's nuts. The fact it can be put in any deck regardless of color just makes it ten times more amazing. A deck with 4 force of wills and 4 mental missteps is going to be a control nightmare for opponents. Counter their key turn one play with mental misstep, and then save that force of will to trip them up as they try to get going without their crucial turn one card. Meanwhile you aren't paying any mana for either so you are building your gameplan without having to expend mana on counters.
I fully expect that mental misstep will force the creation of new legacy decks to deal with it, slowing the game at least a couple of turns from the turn 4/5 win it is now.
I fully expect that mental misstep will force the creation of new legacy decks to deal with it, slowing the game at least a couple of turns from the turn 4/5 win it is now.
Hex said:
Yeah, the ability for mono green to destroy any permanent is nuts. That dual land giving your opponent an advantage? Die. Planeswalker ruining your play? Die. Giant creature wrecking your face? Drop it down to a 3/3. Enchantment controlling the deck? die. Sword hitting you every turn and giving your opponent a huge advantage? die. Beast within is imo the best card in the new set for standard, with mental misstep being the best card overall. I'm going to test both some more in my ramp/natural order deck and see if it takes it to that next level where it is worthy of being used at a tournie.
I also love the versatility in that in the right situation, if you need a chump blocker or that one extra creature to break through your opponents defense, you can convert one of your lands in a 3/3.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Its looks pretty good, but is there a reason why you're relying on such indirect means to deal poison? Why not include some more actual infect creatures? As it is it seems like almost everything you do requires 2+ cards.V_Arnold said:I have went to another beginner tourney, this time with my annoying but at least "original" idea of "control/infect/proliferate" black/blue deck.
I placed 11th out of 14th (last week: 3rd out of 12, with white/red horde...), it was an interesting experience, and my losses were due to unwanted cards being in my hands and/or no black mana with black spells and no blue lands and having 6 blue spells sitting in my hand...
The basic concept is this:
This was my "plan". It works wonderfully against a goblin deck, against any kind of hard-hitting horde deck and to a certain extent, against greens ( we are not talking tourney-winner deck fights of course, more like in a not-so-serious but still -level
Having a non-infecting Thrummingbird with two Piston Sledge attacked to it, flying, 7/3, proliferate - scary shit. What would have happened if I actually draw the Tainted Strike for it also, damn
I would drop the Throne and two of the Fume Spitters, maybe two of the Vector Asps and two of the Tainted Strikes as well, and put in some cheap infect creatures like Ichor Rats or Contagious Nim. The rats in particular will get you a foothold on turn 3 or so for your proliferation.
But my biggest piece of advice is to include 2-4 Distortion Strikes.
Distortion Strike is brutal in an infect deck.
Virulent Wound -> Thrummingbird -> Ichor Rats -> Distortion Strike -> 10 poison counters by turn 5
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Sounds perfect man. I'm getting out of gaming and into Magic more. Your Bloodghasts and Verdant Whatever it Was should be there, too. PM me.Hex said:
Jace is hard to let go of. I found interest in my pair, but I'd really like to use him in a deck before I say good-bye
On the NPH front, I've already overspent. It's easy when every pre-order is a 4-of, but dangit, I want them. I want them all. I've purchased playsets of all the Praetors now, minus Sheoldred. But she will be mine.
On the NPH front, I've already overspent. It's easy when every pre-order is a 4-of, but dangit, I want them. I want them all. I've purchased playsets of all the Praetors now, minus Sheoldred. But she will be mine.
Takuan said:Jace is hard to let go of. I found interest in my pair, but I'd really like to use him in a deck before I say good-bye
On the NPH front, I've already overspent. It's easy when every pre-order is a 4-of, but dangit, I want them. I want them all. I've purchased playsets of all the Praetors now, minus Sheoldred. But she will be mine.
I'd keep one, just because there is a fair chance that despite having just dropped in value (and the fact it will drop some more) years down the road it will still be a highly sought after card and may even jump back up as it gets harder and harder to track one down. I try to keep at least one copy of most rares just because you never know what will happen to their value as the years go on.
edit: when my tax returns gets here I plan on buying a few playsets. I plan on getting a box as well but there are a few cards I definitely want to be sure I have a playset of. Also need to get some natural orders though. Thats going to be expensive
The idea was to sell now, wait a bit for him to rotate/become banned, and then buy at, say, $40 a pop. But with NPH out in a few weeks, and my orders coming soon after, I'd like to put the two that I have in a standard deck with Tezz and see if I can make a winner. Blagh. On the upside, I could buy a Tezz right now with the proceeds from Jace and have my playset. If Tezz becomes a T1 deck, he could very well skyrocket in value himself.siddx said:I'd keep one, just because there is a fair chance that despite having just dropped in value (and the fact it will drop some more) years down the road it will still be a highly sought after card and may even jump back up as it gets harder and harder to track one down. I try to keep at least one copy of most rares just because you never know what will happen to their value as the years go on.
edit: when my tax returns gets here I plan on buying a few playsets. I plan on getting a box as well but there are a few cards I definitely want to be sure I have a playset of. Also need to get some natural orders though. Thats going to be expensive
Takuan said:
ah see i'm just lazy, I don't want to sell and then rebuy later so I just hang onto my stuff.
I think planeswalkers will take a pretty severe knock in power with NPH. Between beast within and hex parasite, I can see decks coming out for standard that make jace a lot less powerful than he was. For instance Beast within gives eldrazi ramp, which was previously completely at the mercy of jace, a way to deal with not just his tomfoolery, but with other important cards as well that held the deck down below most of the big guns. I could see tezzeret getting a bump in value though by getting paired with hex parasite to deal with your opponent's planeswalkers while you do his thing.
Draft was awesome today. Finally getting the hang of it. I was able to put together a pretty kick ass mono green metalcraft deck. Never really thought much of the mechanic but its a beast when played right.
Oh and now I have 3 boxes of NPH ordered. Don't know how that happened honestly.
Oh and now I have 3 boxes of NPH ordered. Don't know how that happened honestly.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I'm assuming this proxy play is just designating a card as NPH card X and rolling with it in a deck. That said, it got me to thinking. What stops a shady card shop from making fake cards and selling them as legit? It can't be that hard to fake a card these days.
alternade said:
Nice, I miss drafting actually, I'm looking forwards to release and pre release drafts for NPH.
I always find that the most consistent way to do well at a draft is to keep it simple. I draft lots of creatures and just flood the board with more creatures than they can kill or bounce with what limited cards they managed to draft. Every time I try to get fancy and try to create clever combos or cards that work together I end up scrubbing out. But every time I just grab every creature that passes me by, I do top 8 at least.
WanderingWind said:
Yeah when I proxy I just take a land card or a common and write the name of a the card I want to try out on it. Sometimes I'll write the cost and what it does as well if I am unfamiliar with it.
People do indeed make fakes, and there are a few very very convincing ones. But none are hundred percent. One of the most common things to do is take a razor and cut the front of the card off and place a fake front to it. If done very well it's fairly convincing but is slightly too thick. Other places (usually in asia) make fake cards that look very similar and even come in packaging and booster boxers, but they are missing various little things and the color and cut of the card is usually off.
And if a card shop ever got caught selling a fake it would be the end of that shop. Selling cards is already a razor thin margin of profit, you piss off some of your customers and you might as well just close up shop.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
siddx said:
It seems odd that in a hobby that is so cheap (compared to most things) that fakes would even be worth it, TBH. I mean, 100 bucks is a hell of a lot of money for the MTG world, but that's the price of 2 new video games. Most cards and other items are substantially less than that, so I guess I'm trying to hash out where the profit from bootlegging would even come from.
In any event, after seeing you guys get so excited over NPH, it's really making me rethink the uses for some of the cards. Entomber Exarch is the one I think I'm most excited for, but some of stuff you guys are thinking of doing is going to be crazy.
Also, I played a game against some random dude in a shop that was using a mermaid deck that had be discarding 5 cards from my deck, losing 5 life and him gaining 5 life every turn. Blue can get very, very annoying.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Some cards from the new toolkit have a different shade around it's border. The red and green cards were darker than normal.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I did also notice that the backs on my Phyrexia vs. the Coalition decks were a subtly different shade of brown as well. Both my brother and I commented on it.Zaraki_Kenpachi said:
An overall shade being slightly darker or lighter is normal, I'm not positive but I believe it just relates to the cards getting slightly lighter as the print continues, probably the ink running out or something alone those lines. The color discrepancies with fakes tend to occur in more specific ways, such as the blue in "Magic" on the back being much darker than on the normal card but with no other shade differences in relation.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
siddx said:
Ah, would make sense since they probably reprinted those cards for the toolkits so the lines are refreshed so to speak. Just odd seeing it darker, noticed that with some foils I've gotten online also.
Nick Malatesta just dropped from the top 4 of SCG Open Boston since he has to be at work for 5 am tomorrow (6 hours from now). Must be fucking nice, Bertoncini.
I played against Nick at a gpt last week, he's fantastic with Elf combo, so I'm not surprised he made top 4 today, but damn that sucks.
I played against Nick at a gpt last week, he's fantastic with Elf combo, so I'm not surprised he made top 4 today, but damn that sucks.
Pandaman said:i keep this deck specifically to troll sliver decks:
'hai, enjoy having to win with only 10 cards played including lands'
I never have issues with sliver decks, but when I want to be an ass I have a deck built around An-Zerrin Ruins and Kismet.
Gatekeeper
Member
siddx said:
What?
Gatekeeper said:
According to several card shop owners I've spoken to, selling packs of card nets them next to nothing, depending on how much they charge, they usually make only a few cents on each pack. Individual cards used to be the way to make money but with online vendors competing they have seen that shrink as well. Tournaments get bring in money but you have to a consistent and decently sized attendance every week to do anything other than break even.
I feel the same. IMO NPH "compleats" (heh) decks built around Tezz 2.0. He's "cheap" now at around $30, and Jace has nowhere to go but down in the meantime. Tough call. I don't really have anymore trade bait for Tezz 2.0's since I swapped 2 Stoneforge Mystics for his arse.siddx said:
... and I just found out the dude interested in my Jaces only wanted to buy both for $100. So this is all moot, I'm a-keepin' them.
Takuan said:
I have traded cards towards boxes before. Usually about 100 bucks worth of cards for a booster box. Sometimes I make out like a bandit, other times I end up regretting it (traded vengevines and primeval titans for a box, and then watched them both double in price a month later...)
Yeah, booster boxes are so hit-and-miss that it's hard to want to bother. Even in the best outcome, you're not likely to get multiples of a chase card (be it a hot card or just something you want). I'm just going to stick to buying uncommon/common playsets and hand-picking rares/mythics via pre-orders from now on. It's fun to speculate what may not be powerful now, but could possibly really good in the future.siddx said:
I want a Vengevine eventually. Cool art and interesting mechanic. I won't pay $20+ for one, though - not for any card.
Takuan said:
I had three....and three primevals. Oh my stupidity, it will never cease.
As hit or miss as booster boxes are, there is just something so damn fun about ripping one open and going through 36 packs. I usually buy 2 - 3 boxes for each set but I think I'm going with your method this time and only picking up 1 box.
edit: I just went to starcity and added all the singles I wanted and....the total is $440...hmmm maybe i'll stick with two boxes instead lol.
I agree with you there. I'll miss opening packs.siddx said:
SCG is extremely pricey. I would be paying 2-3 times more what I paid for the singles I pre-ordered off eBay if I had ordered through them. The only thing you can't get cheaper on eBay is Melira. For some reason, people are paying more than $2/each for her when she's going for that price on SGC. That said, it's significantly less work to order from one site than it is to order from several sellers on eBay, so it's understandable if you'd rather not bother. Just to give an example, 4 Caged Suns ran me just under $6 shipped; SGC is asking $4 each. Playset of Urabrask? $13.54 (eBay) vs $32 (SGC).
Takuan said:
If I hadn't scared myself away from ebay years ago I might consider it. As it stands I'll probably buy a buttload of mental misstep, stick em in a binder and wait a few years for them to rise in price. Probably pick up some myr superions and slag fiends too. But then i'll just go in on 2 or maybe even 3 boxes with the girlfriend.
Gatekeeper
Member
siddx said:
In advance, this is not directed as an attack at you, but at the misinformation I believe you're being given.
I run a successful retail shop and online component with 8 years of experience in the hobby games industry, and am good friends with many other local store owners.
I know many store owners do just fine selling packs at SRP ($3.99), with specials for those who buy in bulk or a box at a time. Historically, the majority of packs sales in a retail store are to those who buy 1-3 packs in a visit. This is where you should be making hand over fist, especially if you have a thriving singles inventory. A store in good standing with its distributors gets a discount on packs that can hardly be defined as next to nothing (the same goes for nearly any product you find in a full service game store). The only shops I've ever seen truly making only a few cents per pack are online vendors only who work with and move such mass volume that they can afford to do that. Usually though, the people ordering from those shops are those ordering in 1/2 box or higher quantities to outweigh the shipping costs.
I don't know on which method your local stores are using to make only making a razor thin margin on singles. I can think of at least 3 different ways to do it, and they're all the wrong way to manage this particular revenue stream. I personally have never been in a shop that pays higher than 60 or 65 percent of their sticker prices for any given single. Most store owners I know only give that price in store credit, and if you want cash you can expect half that (I do things differently, if you want info PM me). This is a great way to make money, but only if you're selling your cards at a price the savvy Magic singles customer wants to buy them at. And yes, that price is likely going to be the price that they can find from an internet retailer. But the point remains that there is plenty of money to be made for retail stores at margins that are not razor thin. One caveat though. This only works if a store is willing to put in the time it takes to best run singles inventory. The market fluctuates so wildly that you will indeed make very little, if not flat out lose money if you don't put that time in. I have at least 4 other points I can make I could make on this subject, but I doubt you guys want to hear them.
Tournaments - There's a couple of different schools of thought on how to run them effectively, and they all have merits and flaws. Attendance is irrelevant for the way I run mine. But the bottom line is whichever you use you'd better be making money. If the way you're doing things isn't making you money, find a better method or stop doing it. Business 101.
Tl,dr: You're either being lied to about how they're running their business in order to garner sympathy, or they're doing things poorly and should probably stop carrying Magic. I get the impression it's the latter.
I'd love to hear more. I'm not considering getting into the business or anything, I'm just very curious about this stuff. My LGS sells packs for considerably less than MSRP, and it appears to be thriving - they've been around for at least 15 years, I think, though they actually transitioned from a crafts store into a card store (they still do crafts on the side). From what I've seen in the relatively short time I've been going, they only carry 1 block and tend to use a lot of their stock for drafts. They don't really dabble in singles; they sell bulk commons/uncommons for 10 cents apiece and have a 50 cent and $1 bulk rare binder comprised of pretty random stuff. They charge $12 for drafts, $25 for pre-release/release events, $5 for Standard, and US MSRP for special products (Duel Decks, FTV, etc.). All this is inclusive of taxes - 13% here, so it's pretty significant. I would think their margins on sealed Magic products is very low, but they also deal in Yugioh and sports cards. They do have pretty consistent attendance, which probably helps a lot.Gatekeeper said:
Yeah, not a bad idea to buy some mental missteps in bulk. Good future value. What scared you from eBay, though, out of curiosity?siddx said:
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Yeah, siddx. What's up with that? I mean, I just bought 500 rares for $0.01...they must be legit, right?
...I got ripped off, didn't I?
...I got ripped off, didn't I?
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Takuan said:
Card lots. My greatest weakness.
It's alright. "Cheap" pre-orders are mine. I went from only ordering cards from NPH that I felt I could use to buying up whatever was less than $2, other than Hex Parasite which I wound up paying $3.75 apiece for. I definitely overpaid on that one, pretty sure he'll drop to $2 in due time, but I just had to have 'em for the neat art and ability. Eying Melira and Chancellor of the Annex now... I don't care too much about the latter and would be happy with 1, but buying in bulk is hard to resist.WanderingWind said:Card lots. My greatest weakness.
Edit: Jumped on Melira. Gonna pass on Chancellor. Now, do I need a playset of Sheoldred to complete my Praetors set?
Gatekeeper
Member
Takuan said:
It really hinges on 2 things - Who their distributor is and what you mean by "considerably less than SRP". SRP in Canada = SRP in the States, $3.99. Another factor is how much competition they have in town for selling packs. Having all those prices include taxes is generous indeed, but the bottom line is I can guarantee you tournaments are where they are making their money. What is the prize payout on draft or Standard night? I personally feel (obviously) that a store that doesn't maintain singles stock is just denying themselves a revenue stream, but I definitely respect a store owner's decision not to do it if he can't put the time into it. If run right, he probably is making very good money on the singles he does carry. Normally those types of singles inventories are made up of draft leftovers and stuff that gets left in shop.
Gatekeeper
Member
WanderingWind said:
Where?
I'm also heavily going infect but with B/G.
Here's my current deck:
Creatures
4 ichorclaw myrs
4 plague stingers
4 ichor rats
4 hands of praetors (beginning to think these are too mana costly)
4 llanowar elves
2 rot wolves
2 blight mambas
2 corpse cur
1 phrexian hydra
1 glissa, the traitor (can't really do dmg but it's a scary blocker)
Others
4 giant growth
3 go for the throat
3 unholy strength (think I can replace these)
2 vines of vastwood
Land
11 swamps
8 forest
1 inkmoth nexus
Was thinking of picking up some Skithiryx the Blight Dragon, Putre Fax, and Phyrexian Crusaders but was wondering if they are worth it before shelling out any dough for them. Possibly more inkmoth nexus.
Any help is much appreciated!
Here's my current deck:
Creatures
4 ichorclaw myrs
4 plague stingers
4 ichor rats
4 hands of praetors (beginning to think these are too mana costly)
4 llanowar elves
2 rot wolves
2 blight mambas
2 corpse cur
1 phrexian hydra
1 glissa, the traitor (can't really do dmg but it's a scary blocker)
Others
4 giant growth
3 go for the throat
3 unholy strength (think I can replace these)
2 vines of vastwood
Land
11 swamps
8 forest
1 inkmoth nexus
Was thinking of picking up some Skithiryx the Blight Dragon, Putre Fax, and Phyrexian Crusaders but was wondering if they are worth it before shelling out any dough for them. Possibly more inkmoth nexus.
Any help is much appreciated!
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