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Magic: The Gathering |OT|
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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The_Technomancer said:
Hahaha. So I'm not the only one that thought "Weenie Forests with Buff Mountains and this card" on reading it. :lol
Enordash said:
Card searching and/or land searching + weenie summoner and if the person is an idiot and doesn't take out said weenie that wants 1 land to summon a creature + 5/5 x 4 summons = dead person.
The cost is the issue, but it isn't that bad if you ramp your mana up and have the mana to do it. After that you just need to summon buff creatures with minimum costs to harm the other player with their power.
It's not great in mono-red (I feel), but that's not the point of it. You're meant to use it with a few other colors that are going to summon or search for creatures for it to use.
Castor Krieg
Banned
Oh man, I'm at the crossroads, plus I'm getting buyer's remorse over getting NPH-MBS-SOM fat packs. I hope some of the pros can help me here, I spent the whole day reading articles on Daily MtG and here's what I came up with:
1. Mythics rares are the worst thing that happened to Magic. Every competitive deck runs with them, and they cost approx. 20USD a card. If I would go competitive T2 that means dropping approx. 200-300USD on damn mythics.
2. "Build on a Budget" column is great, a lot of versatile decks that do not rely on Mythics at all. Does anyone have experience playing them at tournaments, or at least some decks that do not run with 6-10 mythics?
3. Drafting is great as it eliminates "arms race", however you need to pay for the booster packs, and redraft means that for some time since I start there is zero chance I will walk away with any valuable cards. How long did it take you guys to start getting the hang of Draft?
I guess my question is - should I sell what I already have (or at least the mythics) and buy single cards to build T2 Budget deck + concentrate on Draft? I know, I probably should't have bought Fat Packs in the first place, but I got a bit overexcited about getting back into Magic.
1. Mythics rares are the worst thing that happened to Magic. Every competitive deck runs with them, and they cost approx. 20USD a card. If I would go competitive T2 that means dropping approx. 200-300USD on damn mythics.
2. "Build on a Budget" column is great, a lot of versatile decks that do not rely on Mythics at all. Does anyone have experience playing them at tournaments, or at least some decks that do not run with 6-10 mythics?
3. Drafting is great as it eliminates "arms race", however you need to pay for the booster packs, and redraft means that for some time since I start there is zero chance I will walk away with any valuable cards. How long did it take you guys to start getting the hang of Draft?
I guess my question is - should I sell what I already have (or at least the mythics) and buy single cards to build T2 Budget deck + concentrate on Draft? I know, I probably should't have bought Fat Packs in the first place, but I got a bit overexcited about getting back into Magic.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Castor Krieg said:
Do you have a link to the "Build on a budget" decks? I just don't remember them off the top of my head. Has mythic really made it that much worse? There were still high priced demanded cards no? Eh, took a little while to get used to drafting. Although for some consider it boring, talk to people, watch games that aren't finished to see combos and such. It's a pretty different frame of mind of what is important in drafting than in standard. What do you mean by tournament deck? Are you looking to play in actual tournaments or just your local game shop's "tournaments"?
badcrumble
Member
I feel like Warstorm Surge could be just peachy with an already-good red dragon deck.
Castor Krieg
Banned
Zaraki_Kenpachi said:
Ad1. Here it is: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazi... on a Budget&description=Building on a Budget
It's a weekly column.
Ad2. I guess by "tournaments" I mean FNM, as I understand even the best budget deck will lose to a deck with mythic rares, if both players are matched (and in Pro Tour they most likely are).
Can you elaborate? I know the card value is different, some combos and cards have no value in Standard, but are higly effective in Draft. Do you mean anything more than that?
Enordash
Member
Castor Krieg said:
I do agree that the only purpose Mythics provide is to increase income. The justification is that they can print more powerful cards as long as they are more rare. The essential problem with tournament constructed Magic that I've seen is it's less about skill and more about money. I realize that it still takes a skilled player to pilot a deck to its greatest potential, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of diversity anymore. The deckbuilding gods pass down the two or three decks that will be played by every single person in Standard (I realize this is a bit exaggerated, lol). Therefore, if you have the money to grab one of those decklists, hooray for you.
Before the previous time I quit, I do remember viable decks coming out of "Build on a Budget". That's actually my favorite article on the dailyMTG site. I think there was a Pyromancer Ascension deck that came out of that? I'm sure someone else in here could tell you more.
Draft is really all about knowing the set and what works well in draft versus constructed. They have very different dynamics. The way to get good at drafting is to just... draft. A lot. And watch people that are good at drafting; try to understand why they choose what they did over everything else.
I just discovered that Blackborder.com sells full common sets for really cheap. (Like I said, I'm just getting back into the swing of things) I think for M12, I'm going to buy a full set of commons then just single purchase everything else I need. It will bypass my need to buy 3 booster boxes, but it does get rid of that Christmas morning feeling I have when I'm opening all of them, lol.
I apologize if these bits of advice are a little too "common sense". I'm eager to see some of the other people's take on these questions. This has become a lot longer of a rant than I intended, lol.
Enordash
Member
Castor Krieg said:
Here's my attempt to elaborate for Zaraki, rather:
Most draft decks use creatures as their win condition, therefore creature destruction and burn (to kill creatures) is highly desirable. Also, weenies lose a lot of value in draft. Draft games are usually a lot slower so you have plenty of time to get to six plus mana. Don't be afraid to include big bombs just because they seem a little expensive. Most constructed decks have a really nice mana curve between low costs and high costs whereas a draft deck seems to favor a bulk of higher costing cards. Also, keep your draft deck at the minimum possible card total (40 unless I'm completely crazy; this rule applies for all formats though). There is always something worth taking out so you can get to your best cards earlier. (Hope this helps even a little)
Enordash said:
there will only ever be so many tournament playable cards. by making something good, you obsolete other cards.
as for mythics, they are an obvious cash grab, but i'm still not too bothered- other games are a lot worse and generic rares are quite cheap now. what does bug me is when mythic rarity leads to a card being 'pushed' and turned into something broken (jace, batterskull).
Enordash
Member
dschalter said:
So do you buy your rares and mythic rares as singles or just hope for the best with a ton of boosters?
I do agree that they feel obligated to make mythics super powerful. It takes me about five minutes to read JTMS's text because I have to stop and wonder "Did they really print this freakin' card" about six or seven times.
dschalter said:
What bothers me about mythic rares is that generic rares are quite cheap now. I play a cheap standard deck (Elves) that performs consistently very well. Yet whenever I open my prize packs for a tournament, the shitty rares in my packs don't even make up for the $10 I paid for the tournament because ALL the value in the set is placed in a few ultra-super-mythic-whatever rare cards. I played in 4 tournaments in June, opening over 25 prize packs, and still ended up opening less than $20 worth of cards. That's why regular rares being cheaper is actually a pretty terrible thing.
Enordash
Member
mattoz85 said:
Honestly, buying boosters and fat packs and the like is more akin to gambling now than ever before. Like you said, you could spend tons of money and not even get back what you invested. On the flip side, you could spend four bucks and pop a JTMS or whatnot. In the end though, you are spending money to play a game. It's easier to not think of the resale value of what you are purchasing.
I'm not talking about buying packs. I don't do that for the reasons you just stated. It's too much like buying a lottery ticket.
I'm talking about winning booster packs as prizes for doing well in a tournament. One time, my store was doing double prize support, and I got 14 packs for coming in 2nd place in a 12-person tournament. In my 14 packs, I got a total of maybe $10 worth of cards. This is where I think mythics are harming the overall health of the game. If you can't even recoup your cost of attending the tournament when you win nearly half a booster box in prize support, then there's a big problem with the valuation of certain cards.
I'm talking about winning booster packs as prizes for doing well in a tournament. One time, my store was doing double prize support, and I got 14 packs for coming in 2nd place in a 12-person tournament. In my 14 packs, I got a total of maybe $10 worth of cards. This is where I think mythics are harming the overall health of the game. If you can't even recoup your cost of attending the tournament when you win nearly half a booster box in prize support, then there's a big problem with the valuation of certain cards.
Soon after I started to play with my friends, some of us, me included, decided to buy single cards just to ramp up our decks just a bit.
Heh. Just a bit.
Scenario turned out like every similar scenario usually turned out ; it was an escalation race. 5 $, 10 $, 25 $ pumped into single decks....one of my buddies plays with his Angel Deck. Worst idea ever considering there is no support at all for the tribe, but whatever. His deck, worth more than 200 $ (which is big for our standards), was quite annoying to play against and with. Just zapped all the fun out of Magic.
Considering his deck was stacked full of rares (Lightning Greaves, Quickening Amulet, Elvish Pipers, Angels...), I then vowed to bring him down with a deck worth less than 20 $ ; the power of basics, I said. What made Magic...magic, to begin with. I succeeded.
All this to say, to the competitive player, boosters never really were an option to begin with, and they're even less of an option with mythics being keys like Titans and Planeswalker. But to the average crowd, I think nothing quite beat the feeling and excitation of opening new boosters with friends, yelling in fury when your friend opens a Planeswalker while you get a crap rare (knowing full well that booster could've been yours!).
TL;dr : I love the excitation of boosters, and commons can still be useful, as dismal as they may seem sometimes.
Heh. Just a bit.
Scenario turned out like every similar scenario usually turned out ; it was an escalation race. 5 $, 10 $, 25 $ pumped into single decks....one of my buddies plays with his Angel Deck. Worst idea ever considering there is no support at all for the tribe, but whatever. His deck, worth more than 200 $ (which is big for our standards), was quite annoying to play against and with. Just zapped all the fun out of Magic.
Considering his deck was stacked full of rares (Lightning Greaves, Quickening Amulet, Elvish Pipers, Angels...), I then vowed to bring him down with a deck worth less than 20 $ ; the power of basics, I said. What made Magic...magic, to begin with. I succeeded.
All this to say, to the competitive player, boosters never really were an option to begin with, and they're even less of an option with mythics being keys like Titans and Planeswalker. But to the average crowd, I think nothing quite beat the feeling and excitation of opening new boosters with friends, yelling in fury when your friend opens a Planeswalker while you get a crap rare (knowing full well that booster could've been yours!).
TL;dr : I love the excitation of boosters, and commons can still be useful, as dismal as they may seem sometimes.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
I just like cracking packs, not thinking about resale at all. If I buy 20 worth of packs and pull a Karn or something, I feel ok. When I was building a white deck a few weeks back though and I got the 2 suture priest I needed in just as many packs, I was much more excited because those were cards I had actively been looking for.
SO happy that my favorite card of all time, Solemn Simulacrum is coming back in M12
Not only do EDH players get an easier way to get a copy of a staple, but its a card that allows strange decks like Mono Red Control to have some mana ramp and card advantage. I hope it sticks around forever
Not only do EDH players get an easier way to get a copy of a staple, but its a card that allows strange decks like Mono Red Control to have some mana ramp and card advantage. I hope it sticks around forever
I'm so happy right now Magic-GAF! I love Solemn Sim. M12 is my favorite core set.bigkrev said:SO happy that my favorite card of all time, Solemn Simulacrum is coming back in M12
Not only do EDH players get an easier way to get a copy of a staple, but its a card that allows strange decks like Mono Red Control to have some mana ramp and card advantage. I hope it sticks around forever
Funny, I'm at the almost exact crossroad except that I haven't pulled the trigger on purchasing NPH-MBS-SOM fat packs yet. Seeing as you are having slight buyers remorse is making the decision all murky again.Castor Krieg said:
Last time I played I was between 9 and 12 years old (1993-1997) but unfortunately sold my collection when I went to high school. 3 years later I bought over a small (and likely butchered of any good cards) collection from a friend and used this utterly random collection for a few years of casual playing.
It's been a number of years since considering going back into it again and I feel like I've experienced enough games and forms of entertainment by now to know of myself that Magic will always be one of my more type of games. As a young kid it used to absorb any money I had but even with spending about $100 for each block that's still only $400 a year and thus way less than I'm used to spending on videogames or even boardgames a year. Now naturally I'm looking to get the most out of my investment so I'd also like some information on various ways on obtaining the cards (boosters/fatpack/singles/draft).
So far I've bought the following:
- Deckbuilders Toolkit 2011 (pulled a Phyrexian Obliterator from one of the boosters)
- Grave Titan foil promotion
- 2 promotional decks for M12
- War of Attrition Phyrexia Event Deck (bought it after the ban for fair value as I liked the idea of owning a card that is actually so powerful it was banned)
I'll probably be dropping by the local FNM to experience a draft and for the M12 prerelease event these weeks aswell.
As for what I'm looking for I think I can divide the interest as follows:
50% casual --> Deckbuilding (mostly interested in a large card base (c/u/r) to make various decks, they don't have to be super synergetic so I'm very much looking for variety) and playing easy games with my gf.
35% draft --> Never knew about drafting as a kid and having experienced some light drafting mechanics in the boardgame 7 Wonders it's been making me incredibly interested in the format. Plus I see it as a more fun/interesting way to crack your boosters as for 10euro's you get both cards and a fun evening. That said I probably wouldn't draft if there would be a rare redraft at my local FNM.
15% tournament --> Mostly looking up against the prohibitive costs of running a good enough T2 deck that is going to be useless for T2 after your playsets of $25 mythics rotate out with the block change. I did get the War of Attrition deck that is still T2 legal untill September so I might just check it out for the vibe. Our local FNM charges $1 to participate so nothing stopping me to give it a try.
So I was thinking about getting NPH-MBS-SOM fatpacks to get a nice cardbase (mostly for casual) seeing as they are only a little bit more expansive than buying separate boosters and I can use the lands+lifecounter+deckbox. Then maybe augment this by regular drafts and another fatpack for each blockrelease and some singletons to create a deck worthy of FNM tournament play.
The other strategy would be buying full sets of commons+uncommons. I was surprised to see I could get playsets off c+u from the full NPH-MBS-SOM block for only 164 euro's. This would give me a nice base for casual magic (maybe spend another 50 or so bucks to get some cheap rares as singles) but would probably be almost useless for tournament play (you only really need 1% off all those commons and uncommons) and it would make drafting that block a complete money waste since you already have all those cards at home.
I'm also a little bit drawn to booster boxes as they are ultimately the cheapest way you can get boosters. As I said a $100 for each block is less than I spend on videogames and it's way way cheaper than buying boosters separately at the actual mortar&brick store.
Then again booster boxes sort of feel like a midway between casual and FNM. Boxes are way more expansive than getting full sets of c+u which would likely be the best for a casual collection but you need the rare's and mythics to be able to compete in FNM. But I could easily be unlucky and draw all the wrong rare's and mythics and still not be able to do FNM.
Still just getting NPH-MBS-SOM boosterboxes would cost me less than a videogame console and more cards than I've ever had in my collection (that has given me more than enough hours of entertainment already). Maybe looking at distribution of cards in those boxes I can find a deck that doesn't require a too large extra investment setting me up for both casual and FNM fun.
So it's a long post and undoubtedly everyone will have a different strategy (draft, singeltons, boosters). Regardless I just thought I'd drop some of my own considerations in here.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
My strategy? Buy cards. Then, buy more cards. Slap together a deck 10 minutes before playing, play. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose.
Fin.
Outside of my vamp deck though, I don't play competitively.
Fin.
Outside of my vamp deck though, I don't play competitively.
Keru_Shiri
Member
I approve, since I already have playsets of most of these, and they're so cheap on the secondhand market.V_Arnold said:
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Gvaz said:
I did. I never know what to say to those PM's....
"k"
...lol. No worries, bro.
Enordash
Member
Guesong said:
Just out of curiousity, what did you beat him with? (if you remember)
I'm going to run an experiment with my friends with M12. We all agree that Magic gets extrememly expensive. Some of them are still in college and don't have a lot of cash. We are all going to go to Blackborder, buy a full playset of all the commons (which runs around $8) and just play M12 Pauper. It will really take some ingenuity to make a deck that doesn't suck completely.
Too bad I won't be playing with the Solemn Sim though. Love that card. I hope they let his creator have some input on the new art at least.
kiln fiend is a great card to build a pauper deck around or just a "budget" deck. Just a bunch of red burn with some kiln fiends and plated geopedes. Bolt, assault strobe, arc trail, attack for 16 turn 3, dead. It's not going to be consistent enough to be super competitive but it works smoothly enough of the time to be fun for people who don't have the cards/money/desire to make an expensive deck. You can throw in blue as well to give it some more versatility like counter and card draw and make your kiln fiend unblockable/flying.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Yeah, red really is the best color for pauper decks, it seems. Fireball, fireball, lightning bolt, anything with haste, victory.
I'm currently enamored with Commander. I just went through my elves and I have enough to build an entire deck with just that creature type.
I'm currently enamored with Commander. I just went through my elves and I have enough to build an entire deck with just that creature type.
Enordash
Member
siddx said:
I was definitely thinking that red sligh (do people still call it this?) would be a logical path for pauper. Since I'm just playing with friends, there's really no pressure to win so I'll probably build another that is just plain old fun to play, regardless of whether or not it wins consistantly. My favorite color is blue followed closely by black (but it has to be suicide black to the fullest extent, lol).
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
siddx said:
I have them both, too. I was thinking of Eladamri, Lord of Leaves. Sort of a double edged sword, but works really nicely.
mattoz85 said:
I never open my boosters. I always draft with them. It really depends on how much draft is available. With Magic Online its never a problem, in real life. Honestly I let my roommate open my prize packs when we go to pre-releases and stuff. He gets all giddy
V_Arnold said:
Nice. Between that and Jens being reprinted, my Venser deck won't be so gutted come October.
Enordash said:
Don't knock the power of pauper actually. And since you can play far back as legacy, some pauper staples can be as expensive as rares. Also, the decks can be quite crazy when you know what cards you WON'T be dealing with, check out LSV's pauper deck:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/pauper-daily-event-ur-cloudpost-version-1/
He threw that together and playtested it for the first time and it performed pretty damn well. Of course now that frantic search is banned (ha!) he'll have to tweak the deck. Not that he really relied on it too much.
Online pauper can get expensive because some cards were only printed in a precon so far.
Then again this is all from a competitive mindset. The best thing about Magic is that you can play casually, make your own rules, and have a blast.
WanderingWind said:
If I recall, he's banned in Commander.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
What? Banned? Why? For being totally AWESOME?
Rofellos is banned, not the lord of leaves.
here the ban list
Balance
Biorhythm
Braids, Cabal Minion
Channel
Coalition Victory
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Fastbond
Gifts Ungiven
Karakas
Kokusho, the Evening Star
Library of Alexandria
Limited Resources
Lion's Eye Diamond
Metalworker
Painter's Servant
Panoptic Mirror
Protean Hulk
Recurring Nightmare
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Staff of Domination
Sway of the Stars
Time Vault
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Upheaval
Worldgorger Dragon
Give Azusa a try, the ability seems neat but not overwhelming at first, but in the right deck it is absolutely insane. You can have so much goddamn mana online so quickly you'll be dropping monsters before you opponents can even get up and running.
here the ban list
Balance
Biorhythm
Braids, Cabal Minion
Channel
Coalition Victory
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Fastbond
Gifts Ungiven
Karakas
Kokusho, the Evening Star
Library of Alexandria
Limited Resources
Lion's Eye Diamond
Metalworker
Painter's Servant
Panoptic Mirror
Protean Hulk
Recurring Nightmare
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Staff of Domination
Sway of the Stars
Time Vault
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Upheaval
Worldgorger Dragon
Give Azusa a try, the ability seems neat but not overwhelming at first, but in the right deck it is absolutely insane. You can have so much goddamn mana online so quickly you'll be dropping monsters before you opponents can even get up and running.
I'm with red; enemy duals would've been awesome, and I suspect we'll be seeing them in Innistrad. Otherwise, I'm loving the new reveals. 2012 seems like a really fun set to play on its own. Buying a box for sure, and will probably buy an arseload of boosters just to play sealed with friends.
Has anyone bought the Duels 2012 game? I've been redeeming Grave Titans all across the city, I'm up to 4 now (thanks again to Emerson who doesn't browse this thread as far as I know, but I can't thank him enough). Bought the PS3 version yesterday, redeemed 1 Inferno, and will redeem at least 3 more and am looking at as many as 6 of each (no Frost love) when all's said and done; I don't go out of my way, I just check Wizards' store list if I'm ever outside of my core area for business/relatives/friends. One of the benefits of living in a big city, I suppose.
Has anyone bought the Duels 2012 game? I've been redeeming Grave Titans all across the city, I'm up to 4 now (thanks again to Emerson who doesn't browse this thread as far as I know, but I can't thank him enough). Bought the PS3 version yesterday, redeemed 1 Inferno, and will redeem at least 3 more and am looking at as many as 6 of each (no Frost love) when all's said and done; I don't go out of my way, I just check Wizards' store list if I'm ever outside of my core area for business/relatives/friends. One of the benefits of living in a big city, I suppose.
Keru_Shiri
Member
Well, technically they had duals for every color pairing in the first three core sets, and enemy painlands in 10th Edition, so it's not out of the question.Enordash said:
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