Support NeoGAF

[SimTourist]

It takes way too much time, effort and money to make a purely cinematic game like Hellblade when the same story could be told through a movie or a tv series and be done quickly, it wouldn't even take 3 months of filming and a few months of post production. At this point it's harder to make a game than to make a movie, and unless the game justifies itself through engaging gameplay then it makes more sense to make a movie if you're just out to tell a story.

 

[Damigos]

You mean the 30 fps cinematic experience ?

 

[Thief1987]

If you use the bottom of the barrel example you could basically make this thread about any genre/subgenre. Being cinematic doesn't mean that there shouldn't be gameplay at all, it's a problem of a concrete game and developer

 

[MrRibeye]

[...] it's a problem of a concrete game and developer

This.

 

[nemiroff]

Twitch. No need to play any games yourself. ..Especially those you are personally not interested in..

 

[Borowski_1]

I want my Uncharteds, my Red Dead Redemptions, my Hellblades etc

Of course, with variety on the side: platformers, shooters, metroidvanias, action games, etc

 

[Roman Empire]

Hellblade isn't the best example, the same applies to the Order 1886. They were barely games and more like glorified tech demos.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Cheap labour countries will manage to make a few lookers I guess

In the meantime, I’m happy to play this on ultrawide 120 fps on a 5800x3d + 3080 Ti

Super fun AND a looker..

It’s a game

 

[RickSanchez]

It takes way too much time, effort and money to make a purely cinematic game like Hellblade when the same story could be told through a movie or a tv series and be done quickly, it wouldn't even take 3 months of filming and a few months of post production. At this point it's harder to make a game than to make a movie, and unless the game justifies itself through engaging gameplay then it makes more sense to make a movie if you're just out to tell a story.

Given how bad Hollywood is at adapting video game stories. I would gladly take cinematic 'ghost train ride' games over badly written and produced adaptations. And before you reply, the Fallout and Last of Us tv shows are exceptions, not the norms. And even then, the games are still a better experience.

You are taking one contentious example (Hellblade) and making a generalization. There are so many excellent cinematic, story-driven games, which are great interactive experiences as well. Red Dead Redemption 2, Guardians of the Galaxy (the game's story is better than the first 2 movies), Uncharted, Last of Us, Plague Tale, God of War, etc then you have indie gems like The Wolf Among Us, Life is Strange, Stray, Firewatch, etc

Linear, story-driven, cinematic games can be fantastic if done right; and overall a way better experience than a movie or tv show.

 

[HL3.exe]

I mean, I liked cinematic when 'cinematic' meant using the language of cinema in games, like pacing and music timing combined with interactivity.

Half-Life 1 was called a 'cinematic game' at the time. Yes there are scripts but it 'felt' like you where controlling a cinematic experience.

We've lost that some how after Sony got a hold of the whole 'cinematic' games thing. They're now just design tropes, strapped to a 'bolt setting' or 'characters'. Not really interested in dissecting how those things can play thematically different.

 

[64gigabyteram]

Developers can choose to tell the story they want to in the medium they want to.

Regardless of if you like their way of doing it or not I'd rather not advocate for the death of cinematic games even if I may or may not like them. That's the whole point of artistic freedom even if it leads to games like Hellblade 2 being made. (And even then that found its audience with the graphic whores on GAF)

If your complaints are devs who are only around to tell stories you should probably have targeted the VN market years before these cinematic Sony style games hit the gaming sphere. Or JRPG makers.

 

[Bkdk]

Sony is stuck in this badly right now, the cost for these type of game is higher and higher and taking their first party studios longer and longer to make one game, that’s why they are desperate to try getting pc gamers to use psn to gain revenue for their ecosystem. The dev cost for this type of games will get so high soon that Sony is losing money on both hardware and games they sell.

 

[winjer]

I cringe whenever a dev says the word "cinematic".
It's one of those red flags, that points to a bloated AAA game, with mediocre gameplay.

 

[cireza]

Which is fine. The goal is to make games, not movies anyway.

 

[Wildebeest]

The good cinematic games were Another World, Shadow of the Colossus, and Dark Souls. Those games tell their stories visually rather than by having tons of exposition.

 

[Bernardougf]

You chose a 4 hour cinematic tech demo with marginal basic brain dead gameplay as an example .... cinematic games are ok ... you want to talk about cinematic experiences like hellblade

 

[GymWolf]

Nobody is doing 5 hours experiences like hb2, and thank god for that.

Even the most cinematic (good) games nowadays still have a shitload of gameplay.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

Hellblade 2 is a walking sim disguised as "cinematic".

Returnal, Control or Stellar Blade are fantastic games with reasonable AAA budgets that prioritize gameplay despite having a world-building/story. Cinematic doesn't equal to piss poor gameplay or +100M budgets.

 

[TBiddy]

It takes way too much time, effort and money to make a purely cinematic game like Hellblade when the same story could be told through a movie or a tv series and be done quickly, it wouldn't even take 3 months of filming and a few months of post production. At this point it's harder to make a game than to make a movie, and unless the game justifies itself through engaging gameplay then it makes more sense to make a movie if you're just out to tell a story.

You really think they could make a 6 hour show in less than 6 months? In that case, I have a tower in Paris I'd like to sell you.

 

[SimTourist]

You really think they could make a 6 hour show in less than 6 months? In that case, I have a tower in Paris I'd like to sell you.

5 actors in total and a barren landscape out somewhere in Sweden, don't even need CGI. Yeah it could be done, and if you cut out the puzzles and the slow walking it's 2 hours of material at best.

 

[KXVXII9X]

I'm starting to feel the too and I was a diehard PlayStation cinematic games fan. I love a lot of their cinematic games but lately, I feel like these games would be better as live action or high quality CG TV/movies. Hellblade 2 is one of the first games that made me think this.

I think cinematic games that use a unique style and presentation are still relevant though. I'm excited for the next Dontnod game (forget the name). I am heavily anticipating the next Professor Layton game and other JRPGs which have a cinematic flair to them.

I also think cinematic games like TLOU and God of War have good enough gameplay to still feel worthy. Ironically the gameplay is why I liked TLOU Part 2 despite not feeling the story as much.

I think the next place for cinematic gaming is to create more emergent gameplay scenarios with dynamic gameplay systems. Playing something like Monster Hunter Worlds felt VERY cinematic at times despite being gameplay heavy. Same with Zelda BotW/TotK. The gameplay and narrative needs to blend more. I don't want Soulsborne levels of obscure though.

 

[Topher]

I don't agree with coming to conclusions about all "cinematic" games based on Hellblade 2. I've played plenty of "cinematic" games that have great gameplay.

 

[balls of snow]

Depends, I consider Vii Rebirth cinematic. So I guess in your world, only soulsborne is a viable genre. Luckily we are not in your world.

 

[TBiddy]

5 actors in total and a barren landscape out somewhere in Sweden, don't even need CGI. Yeah it could be done, and if you cut out the puzzles and the slow walking it's 2 hours of material at best.

Ahh, to be young and naive again. What a blessed thing.

 

[Punished Miku]

Hellblade 2 feels like a beginning, not an ending. Just imagine the kinds of things possible with more fusion between genuinely auteur filmmakers and even stronger actors. Feels like an exciting fusion of film with limited interactivity. I do watch less movies these days. Hellblade hit me about as hard as watching Avatar 2, but I got to play along. That attempt to fuse film quality level visuals and acting with interactivity is still pretty futuristic, and I like it more than just watching passively sometimes. As Dusk Falls also felt like something I'd want people to gather around and watch and participate in the choices (you could all vote on your phones). Both games were made for relatively cheap as well compared to the biggest games out there. I see it as just another way people can tell stories.

I think Ninja Theory would also see a lot of interest trying an old school survival horror style game with the set camera angles. They can frame the shots better like a movie and show the faces whenever they want instead of the character's back all the time. The graphics would finally be able to surpass RE Remake's pre-rendered look but all real time.

 

[MCplayer]

It takes way too much time, effort and money to make a purely cinematic game like Hellblade when the same story could be told through a movie or a tv series and be done quickly, it wouldn't even take 3 months of filming and a few months of post production. At this point it's harder to make a game than to make a movie, and unless the game justifies itself through engaging gameplay then it makes more sense to make a movie if you're just out to tell a story.

so you would prefer the last of us tv over the games?

 

[Bojji]

What's wrong with Hellblade 2? That's what devs wanted and delivered.

Personally I love short games with strong story element, something like What Remains of Edith Finch? Is one of the best experiences I have ever had in my 26 years of gaming. Same for Soma. Amazing interactive stories

Games like until dawn or dark pictures series have even more focus on story over gameplay and I like them all. Persona series and Witcher 3 is like 50/50 story/gameplay.

At the same time I love games where gameplay is the main focus. There is room for every genre.

 

[Laptop1991]

I want games with game play, not too many cinematic scenes that get in the way of game play, so this doesn't bother me really.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Errrr... GTA6 is a cinematic game.

"Cinematic" games isn't a genre. It's a qualifier that describes the level of production values for the SP experience.

For example, Far Cry 6 for example is a cinematic game where Just Cause 4 isn't. They're both fairly identical types and genres of game, however. So the only thing separating them is that Ubisoft actually puts effort into the writing and story-telling of Far Cry 6, whereas Just Cause 4's story is low effort backdrop merely there to string together the missions.

 

[Fafalada]

We've lost that some how after Sony got a hold of the whole 'cinematic' games thing.

No we haven't, the same time frame HL2 came out in we were getting things like LOTR games that were basically the order 1866 12 years earlier.
And lest we forget Hellblade 2 has more in common with certain laserdisc games from the 80ies than it does with anything Sony put out.
Games attempts to mimick Holywood date way back into 90ies and even before, medium has been obsessed with it for decades.

 

[Dibils2k]

Twitch. No need to play any games yourself. ..Especially those you are personally not interested in..

why would you have played games you are not personally interested in anyway?

 

[Wildebeest]

Hellblade 2 is a walking sim disguised as "cinematic".

Returnal, Control or Stellar Blade are fantastic games with reasonable AAA budgets that prioritize gameplay despite having a world-building/story. Cinematic doesn't equal to piss poor gameplay or +100M budgets.

Yes, David Lynch can make a great cinematic 10 minute scene of an old man sweeping a floor, but he doesn't keep the camera on actors and film them slowly walking between every scene.

 

[crackajack]

People who think cinematic games could just be movies really don't get what even basic interactivity adds to any game/experience. Even the experience in movies differs much on how much individuals are invested and projecting themselves into characters and the plot and really feel it. Even one size fits all media is experienced differently.
Games have various options though, even if it's just the pacing, when the character is triggering some scene. Unless they are made by dumbasses, games try to give the players as much control and accesibility as is suitable and possible, but the experience must differ even more, varying on the level of control that can be given.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

the same story could be told through a movie or a tv series and be done quickly, it wouldn't even take 3 months of filming and a few months of post production.

Have you seen the budgets for TV series or a movie lately?

 

[rhodesianshepard]

What's wrong with Hellblade 2? That's what devs wanted and delivered.

Personally I love short games with strong story element, something like What Remains of Edith Finch? Is one of the best experiences I have ever had in my 26 years of gaming. Same for Soma. Amazing interactive stories

Games like until down or dark pictures series have even more focus on story over gameplay and I like them all. Persona series and Witcher 3 is like 50/50 story/gameplay.

At the same time I love games where gameplay is the main focus. There is room for every genre.

Nobody played it. HB2 probably cost 50+ mil to develop. In terms of sales, Until Dawn is probably the best example of a walking Sim with limited gameplay mechanics selling well, and it only has sold 4million. There is a niche audience for these types of games, but I believe HB2 will be the last AAA version for a game in this genre for a long time. The juice isn't worth the squeeze

 

[Punished Miku]

Nobody played it. HB2 probably cost 50+ mil to develop. In terms of sales, Until Dawn is probably the best example of a walking Sim with limited gameplay mechanics selling well, and it only has sold 4million. There is a niche audience for these types of games, but I believe HB2 will be the last AAA version for a game in this genre for a long time. The juice isn't worth the squeeze

I think Kojima's Overdose is going to be another of these types of games.

 

[JackMcGunns]

The game plays very much like Hellblade 1, but no one complained then.

Hmm, I wonder what changed?

 

[rhodesianshepard]

I think Kojima's Overdose is going to be another of these types of games.

Fair. Its Kojima though, everybody and anybody is going to throw him a bag of money. And OD does sound more unique than your typical walking Sim. Reports stating its using cloud/multimedia, both 3rd and 1st person ect. IDK what to make of it. Jordan Peele being attached helps a lot too

 

[Punished Miku]

Fair. Its Kojima though, everybody and anybody is going to throw him a bag of money. And OD does sound more unique than your typical walking Sim. Reports stating its using cloud/multimedia, both 3rd and 1st person ect. IDK what to make of it. Jordan Peele being attached helps a lot too

I wouldn't be shocked if Druckmann does one too. He's hinted at smaller projects a few times. It's not for everyone, but I see a few more of these coming. Then you have Quantic Dream and Star Wars still.

 

[rhodesianshepard]

The game plays very much like Hellblade 1, but no one complained then.

Hmm, I wonder what changed?

Because most people expect change in a sequel that came out 7 years later, especially when there are 3-4x the developers working on HB2 compared to the first

 

[Jaybe]

I agree OP, and the market has shown this level of immersive movie in game format to be a money losing endeavour, between notable releases like The Order 1886 and Hellblade 2. I think cinematic cutscenes in general are overused in most AAA releases and are a simple way to scale back on them to reduce cost. It doesn’t help that most of the narrative and character writing for these is done by people who desperately wish they could hav made the cut and worked in film or TV, so rarely is anything at the level of excellence put out. Now I would not say all need cut entirely, just be appropriate with it. Sony’s cinematic adventure games could use some editing. Why is GoW ragnarok a one-shot slog when it gets in the way of pacing. So you zoomed in on a hand from one time period and zoomed out and it was another, wow, slow clap. In TLOU2 there was a gap of about 25 minutes from the ambulance fight to the next combat as cutscenes and press forward with a companion talking took over. I get downtime helps with the experience but it’s a bit much, and why I struggle to bother to play those recently and when I do I look forward to wrapping them up and being done with them.

 

[rhodesianshepard]

I wouldn't be shocked if Druckmann does one too. He's hinted at smaller projects a few times. It's not for everyone, but I see a few more of these coming. Then you have Quantic Dream and Star Wars still.

I know they are technically in the same genre, but player choice/detective games like Detroit Become Human or Heavy Rain play very different than something like Hellblade 2. Yes, both are very cinematic, but the gamers engagement level is much higher in Quantic Dream developed games.

For all the cinematic games Playstation has developed over the years, they have not developed anything like Hellblade 2

 

[Topher]

The game plays very much like Hellblade 1, but no one complained then.

Hmm, I wonder what changed?

OT of the first game is below. Search the thread for "gameplay" and there are plenty of mentions regarding the gameplay being a distant second in that game to the overall "experience". There are also those who love the gameplay. So seems to me we are getting similar reactions overall with Hellblade 2.

Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice |OT| The Mid-Tier, in Limbo

www.neogaf.com

 

[Punished Miku]

I know they are technically in the same genre, but player choice/detective games like Detroit Become Human or Heavy Rain play very different than something like Hellblade 2. Yes, both are very cinematic, but the gamers engagement level is much higher in Quantic Dream developed games.

For all the cinematic games Playstation has developed over the years, they have not developed anything like Hellblade 2

Been a few years since I played Beyond, but it seemed very similar to Hellblade 2's goals and approach to design. But yeah, they're all unique stuff. I agree.

 

[ProtoByte]

Sorry, but this is stupid.

Using "cinematic" as some kind of thinly veiled pejorative is cringe. Games have been pushing to look more "cinematic" since the N64 at least.

 

[AJUMP23]

People should stop making games. We have enough.

 

[crackajack]

Games have been pushing to look more "cinematic" since the N64 at least.

For me Jungle Strike on SNES already tried to be cinematic. Anything with some animated cutscenes and a hint of a story is kinda cinematic. Edit: maybe Zelda 2 or some other GB or NES title could be counted then as well. But it was that helicopter action game that felt more like that and springs in my mind.

 

[Bojji]

Nobody played it. HB2 probably cost 50+ mil to develop. In terms of sales, Until Dawn is probably the best example of a walking Sim with limited gameplay mechanics selling well, and it only has sold 4million. There is a niche audience for these types of games, but I believe HB2 will be the last AAA version for a game in this genre for a long time. The juice isn't worth the squeeze

This game is on gamepass on both platforms it released and it was planned for that from day 1. I don't think MS expected much (if any) money from it...

 

[rhodesianshepard]

This game is on gamepass on both platforms it released and it was planned for that from day 1. I don't think MS expected much (if any) money from it...

The whole point of Gamepass is that subscriptions will grow as more games are put in. Hellblade 2 came in like 23rd for most played Xbox game the week of its release. The peak CCU on steam was almost half of Redfall's. Microsoft needs to grow gamepass for it to be viable. HB2 didn't move the needle at all

 

[Fess]

Hellblade 2 feels like a beginning, not an ending. Just imagine the kinds of things possible with more fusion between genuinely auteur filmmakers and even stronger actors. Feels like an exciting fusion of film with limited interactivity. I do watch less movies these days. Hellblade hit me about as hard as watching Avatar 2, but I got to play along. That attempt to fuse film quality level visuals and acting with interactivity is still pretty futuristic, and I like it more than just watching passively sometimes. As Dusk Falls also felt like something I'd want people to gather around and watch and participate in the choices (you could all vote on your phones). Both games were made for relatively cheap as well compared to the biggest games out there. I see it as just another way people can tell stories.

I think Ninja Theory would also see a lot of interest trying an old school survival horror style game with the set camera angles. They can frame the shots better like a movie and show the faces whenever they want instead of the character's back all the time. The graphics would finally be able to surpass RE Remake's pre-rendered look but all real time.

Yeah I’d love more from the Hellblade franchise. Hated the puzzles but absolutely loved the story-telling and cinematic adrenaline-pumping combat in Hellblade 2. Gameplay is my thing but I don’t mind going through a slower shorter game occasionally that fully trigger my movie interest as long as I get the normal gameplay-focused games too.
It’s bombing badly on Steam though and they haven’t released any player numbers from Gamepass either so I assume it’s not doing as well as they thought it would do. Hopefully Ninja Theory is still safe.