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[Ark-AMN]

Wow, all those years in my youth about bitching over delayed games. Now that I've gone through doing "game development" at my school, I'm suprised it doesn't happen to all games. Or rather, I wonder if there's ever been a game made that has been completed on time and with 100% of all the original concept intact? Lets take FEAR for example as it's my most recently completed game. If you got the Bonus DVD then you may have seen the developers commentary and how a lot of it was talk about how much stuff they had to cut because of time constraints or because things didn't fit gameplay-wise.

Its just amazing how easy it is to get behind in development, I mean, very easy. When you have to rely on people to do their jobs in a good way and on time, that can be quite problematic. In one of my classes, I thought our goals were pretty reasonable in terms of getting a finished objective done by the end of the quarter. Now I'm not so sure at all. I guess thats what happens when other people don't do what they're assigned or get sick and lose their work, well, that really messes things up. Obviously people who just don't do their work would be fired instantly in the industry. But there always is the human factor in all things and unintentional break-downs or slip-ups can really put things behind.

Thats why I like one of my teachers who works in the game industry and his harshness. He'll always be "dude! What the Fuck!?! This is crap!" to people when they either don't get things done on time or do things half-assed. Its funny because he doesn't really "teach" us stuff in terms of learning new thing. He teaches us what it'd be like if we showed our stuff to professionals though and how they'd laugh at you if you tried to submit these things as "professional quality work".

And of course, even when you see good looking work on the outside, I think that doesn't tell you much about the quality of the work, because you don't know how long it took to make that thing so nice or if perhaps even though it looks good, its not been properly created or wouldn't work in a game environment (bad/inneficient models, texture effects unfeasible in game engines, etc.)

Hmm, I think I'm just starting to rant now so that'll be it for me. But I would like to hear from some real developers on this board (I know you're out there!) on what steps they take to ensure as best they can that their development teams are organized and careful enough to deal with issues efficiently when they come up.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

I also developed a game for a class with two other people a while back. We had something like 6 weeks to develop it, and I thought our design was quite simple and reasonable for that amount of time. However, we also had to scale our design back quite a bit by the end. This was partially due to people not showing up and doing their work, and partially because of some technical problems we weren't expecting.

 

[Amir0x]

And you'll do it and love it all for a $50,000 salary.

 

[Crazymoogle]

Thats why I like one of my teachers who works in the game industry and his harshness. He'll always be "dude! What the Fuck!?! This is crap!" to people when they either don't get things done on time or do things half-assed. Its funny because he doesn't really "teach" us stuff in terms of learning new thing. He teaches us what it'd be like if we showed our stuff to professionals though and how they'd laugh at you if you tried to submit these things as "professional quality work".

And of course, even when you see good looking work on the outside, I think that doesn't tell you much about the quality of the work, because you don't know how long it took to make that thing so nice or if perhaps even though it looks good, its not been properly created or wouldn't work in a game environment (bad/inneficient models, texture effects unfeasible in game engines, etc.)

QFT

Good to hear you have somebody willing to give harsh critiques, because at the school level you're basically hosed otherwise when it comes to getting work. You can't get away with being as good as someone else. You have to be better.

 

[Ark-AMN]

Oh yes, the unexpected tech problems, those are always fun. Like using the Unreal Engine and figuring out why the damn thing crashes if you haven't imported the right packages.

And I'd be happy with a 50k a year salary as long as I don't live here in California anymore. I'd much rather have a lower pay for a job I enjoy rather than a better salary for a job that would drive me insane (like accounting or finance, the jobs I was considering before I got into game development).

QFT

Good to hear you have somebody willing to give harsh critiques, because at the school level you're basically hosed otherwise when it comes to getting work. You can't get away with being as good as someone else. You have to be better.

Heh, I was just talking with him about that yesterday. He said that "dude! You can quit this school right now and stop paying the huge amount of money if you just want to do what you want or not get harsh critiqes." I was talking about other people who complain BTW, I'm not one of those. He then went on to say that "you're here and are paying that large amount of money to learn how the industry works, and to learn the proper methods of work so that you can get a job". And he's right of course. Anyone can work on their own to make good art, but when it comes down to it, they won't know the proper methods of development or critique if they just make what they want and dont work in a team to make stuff that they may not like.

 

[TekunoRobby]

And people bitch at me when I constantly scale back our grand ideas, sheesh. I'm glad you understand how difficult it is to get a project going, sadly its not as common as you'd think.

 

[Amir0x]

And I'd be happy with a 50k a year salary as long as I don't live here in California anymore. I'd much rather have a lower pay for a job I enjoy rather than a better salary for a job that would drive me insane (like accounting or finance, the jobs I was considering before I got into game development).

A long time ago I thought I'd want to be a game programmer, and then I realized I sucked at math.

Boy was that a harsh realization!

 

[FFunit]

hmm, its still annoying to see FF12 been delayed for so long now. But thats just Sony's tactic to 'dreamcast' Microsoft.. i think.

But you gotta admit that the delay for Duke Nukem Whenever gets frustrating

 

[Amir0x]

hmm, its still annoying to see FF12 been delayed for so long now. But thats just Sony's tactic to 'dreamcast' Microsoft.. i think.

No because then FFXII would have been released on November 22nd.

 

[Ark-AMN]

A long time ago I thought I'd want to be a game programmer, and then I realized I sucked at math.

Boy was that a harsh realization!

Heh, I first wanted to be a game programmer myself, but that was before of course any programs like the one I'm in were ever around. And like you, I totally suck at math and programming in general (compiling errors just made me mad!).

 

[demi]

And people bitch at me when I constantly scale back our grand ideas, sheesh. I'm glad you understand how difficult it is to get a project going, sadly its not as common as you'd think.

Why must you be such a hinderance to the whole picture?

 

[Ark-AMN]

And people bitch at me when I constantly scale back our grand ideas, sheesh. I'm glad you understand how difficult it is to get a project going, sadly its not as common as you'd think.

I'm sorry, my comprehension skills are in the toilet now thanks to this flu. But what's not as common as I think? Scaling back grand ideas or understanding how difficult it is to get a project going?

And what grand ideas did you have to scale back anyway?

 

[FFunit]

No because then FFXII would have been released on November 22nd.

yeah thats right, but its still a way of Sony to say "guess what, the old PS2 is still alive and kickin"....

 

[Stinkles]

hmm, its still annoying to see FF12 been delayed for so long now. But thats just Sony's tactic to 'dreamcast' Microsoft.. i think.

But you gotta admit that the delay for Duke Nukem Whenever gets frustrating

Mods, I will reveal the name and plot of my next game by PM if you make the use of the word Dreamcast as anything other than a noun, a bannable offense.



PS., I won't really PM you that. But please, for the love of jeebus. No "Dreamcasted."

 

[FFunit]

oh please, I saw that word being used here just a day ago. Dont make it seem like I started it.

 

[evil ways]

I always thought games were delayed because the company still had not finished printing the inserts ans booklets.

 

[trilobyte]

And you'll do it and love it all for a $50,000 salary.

Compare that to doing web application development and making about 20k more

 

[Amir0x]

Mods, I will reveal the name and plot of my next game by PM if you make the use of the word Dreamcast as anything other than a noun, a bannable offense.

Sure!

PS., I won't really PM you that. But please, for the love of jeebus. No "Dreamcasted."

Fission Mailed!

 

[TekunoRobby]

I'm sorry, my comprehension skills are in the toilet now thanks to this flu. But what's not as common as I think? Scaling back grand ideas or understanding how difficult it is to get a project going?

And what grand ideas did you have to scale back anyway?

I meant that not a lot of students understand what it takes to get a game project started or completed. In fact I've encountered so many people with grand ideas and want to get the ball moving but don't have a damn clue as how to start.

I don't want to get into the specifics but on a personal project I'm working for (with a large team for an indie studio to boot) the original team had a grand vision with excellent gameplay ideas and a grand involving plot with a ton of character interaction. Needless to say I had to cut down a massive portion of what was originally going to be worked on and bring in a concept art team just so we could get to work on our newly scaled version. So much work to do especially when you're new to this (as I am), having to deal with every little facet of team management makes those apparent and you realize that working from a small idea up is FAR easier then having to scale your grand idea down due to financial or time constraints.

I always thought games were delayed because the company still had not finished printing the inserts ans booklets.

:lol That's a good one.

 

[Crazymoogle]

:lol That's a good one.

:lol

Yeah, wouldn't that be great? "The printers just can't work fast enough to get our game on shelves!" :lol

 

[Ark-AMN]

I meant that not a lot of students understand what it takes to get a game project started or completed. In fact I've encountered so many people with grand ideas and want to get the ball moving but don't have a damn clue as how to start.

I don't want to get into the specifics but on a personal project I'm working for (with a large team for an indie studio to boot) the original team had a grand vision with excellent gameplay ideas and a grand involving plot with a ton of character interaction. Needless to say I had to cut down a massive portion of what was originally going to be worked on and bring in a concept art team just so we could get to work on our newly scaled version. So much work to do especially when you're new to this (as I am), having to deal with every little facet of team management makes those apparent and you realize that working from a small idea up is FAR easier then having to scale your grand idea down due to financial or time constraints.

Yep, I was one of those people with grand ideas too (I still have grand ideas and great imagination), but now it boggles my mind when I try to think about how to make something on the scale that I'd want to do, but I guess thats what a good organized team is for. Of course its unlikely I'll ever get the chance to see my ideas take form, but I'll keep them by my side in case.

And you are so right. It is much better to start off with something small and add to it as time allows. But of course, when you present your ideas to a publisher, they want a good timetable and it can be hard determining that timetable for your project since you don't want to ask for too much time because they probably won't agree to that, and you don't want too little time either or you won't be able to get a good product out.

 

[Vustadumas]

And you'll do it and love it all for a $50,000 salary.

Making games isn't for the money, it's for the love, well in my case anyway 50K is like Junior level pay. :lol

 

[E-Nature]

delays in a production is not only a video-game thing. this is called project management and you usually need around 1/3 more time than you originally have planned

 

[Stinkles]

oh please, I saw that word being used here just a day ago. Dont make it seem like I started it.

I didn't say you started it. But now you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.

I hope you get dreamcasted by a truck.


PS., not really.

 

[BugCatcher]

Yep, I was one of those people with grand ideas too (I still have grand ideas and great imagination), but now it boggles my mind when I try to think about how to make something on the scale that I'd want to do, but I guess thats what a good organized team is for. Of course its unlikely I'll ever get the chance to see my ideas take form, but I'll keep them by my side in case.

And you are so right. It is much better to start off with something small and add to it as time allows. But of course, when you present your ideas to a publisher, they want a good timetable and it can be hard determining that timetable for your project since you don't want to ask for too much time because they probably won't agree to that, and you don't want too little time either or you won't be able to get a good product out.

When it comes to projects, CS undergrads seem to be extremely optimistic about the length of time it takes to do anything. "I could write that feature in half an hour", "We should be able to have these components completed by next week", etc etc. I don't know if it's a lack of experience or our egos that gives us such overconfidence, but there's so many things that people don't take into account that eventually causes things to fall behind:

1. Teammates not working
2. You not working
3. Bugs
4. Project scope too large
5. Estimating how long it will take you to do something you've never done before
6. Other catastophies (hard drive crashes, discovering flaws midway through the project that can't be easily corrected, etc.)

There's surely more than that, but this are the things I've come across in my experience. In my senior project class, I made a timeline for our group, then tripled all the estimates. In the end, it still wasn't enough time.

I think 1 & 2 are a bigger problem as a student because you can't get fired for poor performance. If you tend to procrastinate (and I know I do), then having generous deadlines does nothing but encourage you (or your teammates) to wait longer to start. In retrospect, I probably should have kept the real timetable to myself and distributed a shortened one to my teammates

Anyway, now that I am in grad school, my classmates are pleasantly cynical about deadlines. It's really nice. It's not that they're lazy, it's just that a lot have had the same experience of getting burned as undergrads, so they're really careful not to promise the impossible.

 

[bumpkin]

This topic reminds me... Does anyone know the going rate for various console dev kits? And can an indie start-up developer get them?

 

[rastex]

delays in a production is not only a video-game thing. this is called project management and you usually need around 1/3 more time than you originally have planned

Unfortunately this ends up as an infinite loop when taken into practise.

 

[The Chosen One]

I've worked at a big videogame company (SCEA) and I now currently make my own Independent games for the PC and Mac.

In big companies, delays are indeed usually the result of project management. With team sizes and budgets sky-rocketing, there's just so many moving parts in today's console development. A breakdown in project management in any one area(QA, Art, Design, Code. and etc) can adversely affect the schedule of the project.

With smaller Independent games, delays are usually the result of over-ambitious features or vastly under-estimating the time it takes to supposedly complete simple tasks. In my personal experience, things I thought would be complicated and take two weeks sometimes I finish in just a couple of days. Other things I thought would be easy and be done within 1-2 days, sometimes took several weeks.

It's not always a matter of being lazy, it just takes time and experience to learn how to make accurate estimates. And even experienced people still over-estimate sometimes. That's why it's important to log how much time it takes to complete a task. That way if you're ever in a similar situation again, you can refer back and get a good rough idea how long it will take.

I usually follow this rule of thumb. I multiply my estimated schedule by 2.5. So if I think it will take me 3 months, I allocate 7.5 months to get it done. Of course, I have the benefit of not having to deal with a set in stone marketing schedule.

Here's another dirty secret in the industry, which I'm sure some of you already know or suspected. Many times a delay isn't really a delay at all. Sure they may have publicly announced a Q4 '05 release, but everybody internally knows the game won't be done until Q3 of '06. The original release date is just to generate buzz and build-up anticipation.

 

[dark10x]

But you gotta admit that the delay for Duke Nukem Whenever gets frustrating

They never learned how to scale back. Everytime somebody shows off a new feature, it seems like George jumps on the forums to trumpet the fact that DNF will actually do it one better!

 

[Ark-AMN]

Hmm, so it seems that the big companies are more management oriented in terms of how they prepare for things and possible contingencies. I think someone told me that its the Producers who are mostly responsible for schedule management and organization. That gave me an eye-opener because I always thought the Producer was more responsible for the game content, but that seems to be more of the Directors job. Basically, my dream-job of course would be the one who creates the ideas for games (storyline, etc.) though I'm not too sure what that job title is.

 

[Miroku]

Hmm, so it seems that the big companies are more management oriented in terms of how they prepare for things and possible contingencies. I think someone told me that its the Producers who are mostly responsible for schedule management and organization. That gave me an eye-opener because I always thought the Producer was more responsible for the game content, but that seems to be more of the Directors job. Basically, my dream-job of course would be the one who creates the ideas for games (storyline, etc.) though I'm not too sure what that job title is.

You want to be a lead designer, assuming your "ideas for games" encompasses story as well as gameplay mechanics

 

[Ranger X]

Hmm, so it seems that the big companies are more management oriented in terms of how they prepare for things and possible contingencies. I think someone told me that its the Producers who are mostly responsible for schedule management and organization. That gave me an eye-opener because I always thought the Producer was more responsible for the game content, but that seems to be more of the Directors job. Basically, my dream-job of course would be the one who creates the ideas for games (storyline, etc.) though I'm not too sure what that job title is.

You actually want to become a Game designer or right under it like a Lead artist, Lead level designer and stuff like that.

 

[Marathon]

Basically, my dream-job of course would be the one who creates the ideas for games (storyline, etc.) though I'm not too sure what that job title is.

We call those people leeches.

No skills, no business holding a job in the game development biz.

 

[Raiden]

We call those people leeches.

No skills, no business holding a job in the game development biz.

So let me guess, you work for EA and you all mass hate people who invent new ideas and compelling story's?

On a serious note, just this one Q..why?

 

[Marathon]

So let me guess, you work for EA

Nope.

 

[Cosmozone]

Speaking of games' stories, most of them are simply bad. Even those considered superior, e.g. MGS are mediocre at best when compared to good movies/novels. So wouldn't it be better to engage an actual writer with that? I feel this isn't the case in about 99% of the cases so far. In other areas, most prominently music, people realize very easily that they're unqualified. For the stories, they're less reasonable.
There are games where the story is no crucial part, though.

On input from all kinds of game designers/developers: why not? The main staff should be open for other people's opinions. That's what teamwork is all about.

 

[Vark]

And you'll do it and love it all for a $50,000 salary.

:lol :lol



Unless you're an artist, then expect less! (exceptions being retardedly expensive cities, but cost of living balances it out).

 

[Raiden]

Speaking of games' stories, most of them are simply bad. Even those considered superior, e.g. MGS are mediocre at best when compared to good movies/novels. So wouldn't it be better to engage an actual author with that? I feel this isn't the case in about 99% of the cases so far. In other areas, most prominently music, people realize very easily that they're unqualified. For the stories, they're less reasonable.
There are games where the story is no crucial part, though.

On input from all kinds of game designers/developers: why not? The main staff should be open for other people's opinions. That's what teamwork is all about.

I disagree, novels ok, but the average 2 hour movie? Come on, most movies are too short to tell a decent and detailed story. I'd say novels win with videogames being second. Also a lot of story-writers for videogames are more talented then most movie-writers cough*Sam Lake*cough

 

[Vark]

So let me guess, you work for EA and you all mass hate people who invent new ideas and compelling story's?

On a serious note, just this one Q..why?

Eh he's being harsh but honest. 90% of the kids you meet in college want to 'break into the game industry' and you ask them about it and they're like 'I've got this great idea for a game! It's got this really cool story' (9 times out of 10 its just a story NO gameplay)

Guess what kids.. everyones got ideas. There is no one person in this industry that gets paid to sit around and spout out story ideas and have money shoveled at them.

Most game companies have their IP's lined up for the next 3-5 years and if they need a new idea for a game there's no lack of people within the company that can come up with one.

Someone that can actually sit down and get it DONE is whats important.

Even if you're job in the industry is to write dialog, 99% of the time you're also responsible for scripting that dialog into the game and debugging content. No one just writes dialog and passes it off. That'd be a waste of budget.

 

[Vark]

having to deal with every little facet of team management makes those apparent and you realize that working from a small idea up is FAR easier then having to scale your grand idea down due to financial or time constraints.

I'm usually in a perpetual state of ire over the lack of ground up design you see in this industry.

 

[Cosmozone]

I'd say novels win with videogames being second.

Um, no. But I admit there are a lot of crappy movies. For example movies based on video games. :lol On the artistic side, games have still a long way to go to catch up with good movies. People predict that line between the two media is gonna blur, though.

 

[Optimistic]

Speaking of games' stories, most of them are simply bad. Even those considered superior, e.g. MGS are mediocre at best when compared to good movies/novels. So wouldn't it be better to engage an actual writer with that? I feel this isn't the case in about 99% of the cases so far. In other areas, most prominently music, people realize very easily that they're unqualified. For the stories, they're less reasonable.
There are games where the story is no crucial part, though.

Damn straight.

 

[the year 20XX]

There is no one person in this industry that gets paid to sit around and spout out story ideas and have money shoveled at them.

Well, there is one person.

 

[Ark-AMN]

We call those people leeches.

No skills, no business holding a job in the game development biz.

Hey, I just called it a "dream" job, ie. there's probably no chance of it ever happening. And yep, there are a ton of "leeches" at my school just wasting their money.

Eh he's being harsh but honest. 90% of the kids you meet in college want to 'break into the game industry' and you ask them about it and they're like 'I've got this great idea for a game! It's got this really cool story' (9 times out of 10 its just a story NO gameplay)

Guess what kids.. everyones got ideas. There is no one person in this industry that gets paid to sit around and spout out story ideas and have money shoveled at them.

Most game companies have their IP's lined up for the next 3-5 years and if they need a new idea for a game there's no lack of people within the company that can come up with one.

Someone that can actually sit down and get it DONE is whats important.

Even if you're job in the industry is to write dialog, 99% of the time you're also responsible for scripting that dialog into the game and debugging content. No one just writes dialog and passes it off. That'd be a waste of budget.

Great post, and that pretty much sums up what I think about most people who are trying to get into the industry. And you're right, only a select few people can come up with their own ideas in this industry (Miyamoto and Wright).

 

[Vark]

Well, there is one person.

Enter the exception.

 

[Ark-AMN]

I'm usually in a perpetual state of ire over the lack of ground up design you see in this industry.

The way I understand things, is that since the way most game development these days is green-lighted by a publisher (unless you're a lucky developer like Valve or Blizzard), most designers feel the need to aim high when presenting their game design documents in order to give their prospective supporter a reason to give them the go-ahead to make their game.

Also, since a lot of games are based on licensed IP's from movies and elsewhere, you're probably being handed a high mark to aim for to begin with.

 

[snaildog]

Ever since my three-man team took over ten hours to get a metric/imperial converter going I've appreciated game development :lol This was with test cases and classes and hand-programmed GUI and all the rest of it, we're not complete retards, but still.

I still like pure logical programming and problem solving, but I backed out of my SE degree when I realised that it's all about endless error messages and awkward compilers.

 

[Warm Machine]

32k is about starting artist wages in the industry. I started at 28k back in 1996.

Most games are delayed because most games are started without a plan at all. They'll go really high level and say...Counter Strike meets Team Fortress... and then everyone starts working. By the 6th or 9th month a realization that there is no consistency in the assets occurs, the game design is shoddy as hell, the publisher doesn't know what they want, and nobody takes any kind of responsibility. Things float in a limbo for 3 months more and then firefighters are called in to fix the mess and things eventually get back on track.

At the worst the game designer or level designers don't know what they even want so they keep half doing things and then tear it down and start over. Basically by the time some games actually do get completed 3 games could have been made in the same timeframe.

 

[gblues]

Mods, I will reveal the name and plot of my next game by PM if you make the use of the word Dreamcast as anything other than a noun, a bannable offense.



PS., I won't really PM you that. But please, for the love of jeebus. No "Dreamcasted."

Oh, you've inspired me.

Nathan

 

[Vark]

The way I understand things, is that since the way most game development these days is green-lighted by a publisher (unless you're a lucky developer like Valve or Blizzard), most designers feel the need to aim high when presenting their game design documents in order to give their prospective supporter a reason to give them the go-ahead to make their game.

Also, since a lot of games are based on licensed IP's from movies and elsewhere, you're probably being handed a high mark to aim for to begin with.

Well Warm Machine basically summed up what I meant by that. There's a lot of 'we want to do this'. And not a lot of 'This is what we want to achieve, here are the things we need to do first to make that happen'.

It'd sort of be like if someone decided to make a movie, and went and said "I want to make a movie about villians and angst!".

And then they took a camera and went and started shooting, while 10 miles away someone is making costumes they think they probably need, and off in the corner someone is writing a script.

12 months later they all meet up in a room, do a show and tell and stare at each other blankly while they try to figure how to splice everything together and make something coherent out of it.