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[jarrod]

Nothing like the kick-ass N64 alpha support -- fuck, it's not even up to the PSOne's faux- "alpha" channel transparency support. The DS has fuck-all for hardwired special effects -- we get what, some basic Z-list support and UH WHAT

Well so far we know it's got hardwired cellshading, gourad shading, depth buffering (ie: z-buffering) and fog effects. As is, it's more effects heavy than PS1 or Saturn, though obviously less than N64. Also "basic Z-list support" ensures DS games will never have those wobbly, tearing polygon issues that plauged most PS1 games. Really, so far it seems more like a souped up PS1 than anything. It'd be nice if a developer would offer more specifics though, precious little seems to be circulating in terms of DS performance.

I'd imagine that would have bumped up the cost quite a bit, actually. It's not so much the texture filtering itself so much as the difference between hardware that can support that feature and the hardware in the DS.

From my understanding texture correction/filtering would've been pretty simple to implement (as the DS' 3D instruction set is likely based off the N64's RSP). The problem would've been an overall performance drop though, like on N64. It likely just didn't seem worth the drop considering the display quality hides most texture problems anyway.

 

[ge-man]

Incorrect.

Both versions run at a solid 30 fps.

I know that, but the DS version looks smoother to me. I don't remember Mario 64 being a solid 30 fps.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Jarrod, I hope one day someone on some emulator runs Super Mario 64 DS with texture-filtering at full speed or that a future DS 2 or something is able to filter-textures like PlayStation 2 is able to do for lots of PSOne games.

It would be a sight to behold IMHO as the DS edition is MUCH more texture heavvy in general: some textures in the DS version are deliberatly blurred (like the one in the hall at the beginning of the game) to reduce the effects of texture pixelllization/magnification artifacts. Most of the times you can ignore it, but it is there and clearly visible.

You might say that it is really not noticeable... but on that screen, yes the DS screen... if you saw Super Mario 64 DS with texture filtering turned on, you would like the game quite a bit more graphically... even if you think that filtering is not needed now on that screen .

 

[ChristKiller]

The N64 version is defintiely NOT a "solid" 30 FPS.

 

[jarrod]

Jarrod, I hope one day someone on some emulator runs Super Mario 64 DS with texture-filtering at full speed or that a future DS 2 or something is able to filter-textures like PlayStation 2 is able to do for lots of PSOne games.

It would be a sight to behold IMHO as the DS edition is MUCH more texture heavvy in general: some textures in the DS version are deliberatly blurred (like the one in the hall at the beginning of the game) to reduce the effects of texture pixelllization/magnification artifacts. Most of the times you can ignore it, but it is there and clearly visible.

You might say that it is really not noticeable... but on that screen, yes the DS screen... if you saw Super Mario 64 DS with texture filtering turned on, you would like the game quite a bit more graphically... even if you think that filtering is not needed now on that screen .

Yeah, I'm sure DS games will look *amazing* when tweaked under emulators. Similar to the improvements in N64/PS1 stuff under emus.

BTW- have you seen any DS hardware details anywhere? All I can find are the offical specs (which don't go into any detail) and the leaked (incomplete) specs list from almost a year ago. Why aren't more details leaking out? :/

 

[dark10x]

The N64 version is defintiely NOT a "solid" 30 FPS.

Mario 64 is 30 fps and Zelda OoT is 20 fps. Now, I haven't played Mario 64 on a real N64 for a few years now, so perhaps I am wrong, but emulators for N64 run at accurate framerates in order to maintain proper timing and they absolutely run Mario 64 at 30 fps solid. If you disable this framerate lock, the games run much too quickly. From what I remember of Mario on a real N64, however, there wasn't any slowdown. If there is, would you point it out?

From my understanding texture correction/filtering would've been pretty simple to implement (as the DS' 3D instruction set is likely based off the N64's RSP). The problem would've been an overall performance drop though, like on N64. It likely just didn't seem worth the drop considering the display quality hides most texture problems anyway.

I really don't think it's that simple, though...

The hardware is not designed to accelerate bilinear filtering and would be unable to perform the operation at any sort of usable speed. I'm not sure if the CPU is capable of integer multiplication at a speed needed to perform somewhat fast filtering routines. How fast is the FPU in the DS CPU anyways? I'd assume it could handle filtering in a simple tech demo with very few textures, but I don't think it could handle a full 3D realtime scene at a good framerate when performing bilinear filtering operations (low single digit framerates, no doubt). I don't believe that even 200 MHz Pentium MMX CPUs were able to perform high speed bilinear filtering without the aid of dedicated hardware. The MMX instruction set allowed for some very rough texture filtering to be performed on the CPU, but it was still pixelated and it was slower.

They would have had to approach the 3D rendering abilities of the Nintendo DS from a totally different angle in order to achieve this. This situation is nothing like Nintendo 64, which was based on an entirely different architecture.

 

[tedtropy]

Mario 64 is 30 fps and Zelda OoT is 20 fps. Now, I haven't played Mario 64 on a real N64 for a few years now, so perhaps I am wrong, but emulators for N64 run at accurate framerates in order to maintain proper timing and they absolutely run Mario 64 at 30 fps solid. If you disable this framerate lock, the games run much too quickly. From what I remember of Mario on a real N64, however, there wasn't any slowdown. If there is, would you point it out?

Mario 64 on the N64 has SEVERAL moments of slowdown. Heck, you could see the game lag on the first map alone in the encounter with the big bomb-omb boss guy. Also, stages that featured water had moments of noticable lag. For the most part, it kept a consistent framrate. But "no slowdown"? Hardly.

 

[dark10x]

Mario 64 on the N64 has SEVERAL moments of slowdown. Heck, you could see the game lag on the first map alone in the encounter with the big bomb-omb boss guy. Also, stages that featured water had moments of noticable lag. For the most part, it kept a consistent framrate. But "no slowdown"? Hardly.

OK, like I said, I was thinking of the emulated version, which is obviously not accurate (as it never slows down)...

 

[tedtropy]

OK, like I said, I was thinking of the emulated version, which is obviously not accurate (as it never slows down)...

And thank goodness for it. Mario 64 is one of the few emulated N64 games that is a joy to play. It has very few emulation flaws and looks pretty nice running at a really high resolution with FSAA.

 

[Jacobi]

I hope the DS SP will offer some filtering

 

[dark10x]

I hope the DS SP will offer some filtering

Almost no chance...

That would require a re-design of the hardware internally and would essentially make that version of the DS entirely different from the current version. They'd be different machines...

 

[Odnetnin]

OK, like I said, I was thinking of the emulated version, which is obviously not accurate (as it never slows down)...

jesus! :lol :lol :lol

 

[dark10x]

jesus! :lol :lol :lol

???

I'm not entirely certain as to why that's so funny...

I made a guess based on the framerate the game is designed to run at and the knowledge that many N64 games, when emulated, slow down on the emulators in the same areas as the actual console (in order to maintain accuracy). It would seem that Mario 64 is an exception, however...

It has been a while since I played the game on the real machine, and I didn't recall any major slowdown issues...so I put those two together and took a shot.

I suppose if you find that funny, you must be a huge VG-cats fan or something...

 

[Odnetnin]

???

I'm not entirely certain as to why that's so funny...

I made a guess based on the framerate the game is designed to run at and the knowledge that many N64 games, when emulated, slow down on the emulators in the same areas as the actual console (in order to maintain accuracy). It would seem that Mario 64 is an exception, however...

It has been a while since I played the game on the real machine, and I didn't recall any major slowdown issues...so I put those two together and took a shot.

I suppose if you find that funny, you must be a huge VG-cats fan or something...

its just that the discussion is about the games running on their native platforms - DS and N64 respectively and you make a claim on emulated roms. Too funny. Try again. :lol :lol

 

[dark10x]

its just that the discussion is about the games running on their native platforms - DS and N64 respectively and you make a claim on emulated roms. Too funny. Try again. :lol :lol

Yeah, you're a moron. No point in offering a more detailed response as you will likely fail to understand and simply end up using the ":", "l", and "o" keys once again. ROFLMAO!!!!1111

Stop wasting bandwidth you damn f*cker!

 

[radioheadrule83]

To be fair to Dark10x, the N64 game does run extremely slickly. You have to be a real framerate whore and to have played the game in emulation or on DS to note some differences.

The only instances where I have ever noticed slowdown - and it doesn't happen every time you play either - is when there are smoke effects, the camera is quite far out or looking at a lot of scenery, throwing bowser & making a mine explode, and entering some paintings. And its a very subtle difference. Mario 64 is probably one of the benchmarks on N64 for framerate. It seemed like there were so many games that stooped to 15fps or worse on that system. Its sick to try and play anything that does that now...

The new higher poly characters, better textures and better animation are what put the DS version above Mario 64 visually. And I agree, this could all be down to more experience rather than better hardware performance...

but I never made this thread to talk about hardware performance anyway. One of my favourite games, now has more extras, AND looks & sounds better to boot

 

[dark10x]

The only instances where I have ever noticed slowdown - and it doesn't happen every time you play either - is when there are smoke effects, the camera is quite far out or looking at a lot of scenery, throwing bowser & making a mine explode, and entering some paintings. And its a very subtle difference.

See, that's what I remember. As I've said many times, I have not played the game on a real N64 for a few years, but I do not recall any major or consistant slowdown. The alpha effects that seem to slow the game down aren't even in the DS version anyways...

 

[radioheadrule83]

Speaking of alpha...

although the trees are still horrible sprite-based things that look the same from every angle, they look better, and the transparency if you're behind one seems to be handled better in this game too IMO.

 

[jarrod]

Mario 64 also had some noticable pop up on N64. The best example is in the Rainbow Ride stage at the beginning.... is it the same in the DS version?

 

[Odnetnin]

Yeah, you're a moron. No point in offering a more detailed response as you will likely fail to understand and simply end up using the ":", "l", and "o" keys once again. ROFLMAO!!!!1111

that's just too funny. Great response. teh mature. :lol :lol

 

[dark10x]

Mario 64 also had some noticable pop up on N64. The best example is in the Rainbow Ride stage at the beginning.... is it the same in the DS version?

It also had very harsh LOD on various objects...

I don't know if this is the case on DS, but when the camera was zoomed out just a certain amount, a low poly Mario model would be used (and this is likely the case on certain other 3D objects). However, this only occured when Mario was moving. If you stopped running, the model would be restored to the original full detail Mario...

This was not particularly noticible on a real N64, however, due to the low resolution, but it was painfully obvious on an emulator.

that's just too funny. Great response. teh mature. :lol :lol

Last time I'm responding to you...

If you take a look, you're the only one not attempting to seriously discuss this. Throwing around emoticons and insults does not exactly add to the discussion. With that said, you're on the ignore list now...

 

[radioheadrule83]

Mario 64 also had some noticable pop up on N64. The best example is in the Rainbow Ride stage at the beginning.... is it the same in the DS version?

How bad is it? I don't have my 64 hooked up, but I've got the DS with this level loaded right in front of me?

Looking around from the platform you start on I can see most of the magic-carpet/rainbow tracks around me, the Galleon with wings, the castle, and other platforms...

 

[jarrod]

How bad is it? I don't have my 64 hooked up, but I've got the DS with this level loaded right in front of me?

Looking around from the platform you start on I can see most of the magic-carpet/rainbow tracks around me, the Galleon with wings, the castle, and other platforms...

It's bad... you turn around and objects within longjump distance suddenly pop up. It's actually sp bad it makes me wonder if Mario 64 is lacking an overall LOD rountine and it's just optimized bit by bit.

 

[dark10x]

It's bad... you turn around and objects within longjump distance suddenly pop up. It's actually sp bad it makes me wonder if Mario 64 is lacking an overall LOD rountine and it's just optimized bit by bit.

Like I said, it does LOD on moving 3D objects, but not the environment (though, I don't see how you could really do any meaningful LOD on something that is so geometrically simple already).

 

[jett]

Mario 64 is 30 fps and Zelda OoT is 20 fps. Now, I haven't played Mario 64 on a real N64 for a few years now, so perhaps I am wrong, but emulators for N64 run at accurate framerates in order to maintain proper timing and they absolutely run Mario 64 at 30 fps solid. If you disable this framerate lock, the games run much too quickly. From what I remember of Mario on a real N64, however, there wasn't any slowdown. If there is, would you point it out?

So you just adimitted that you download a rom AND you posted impressions of your pirating session? Better hope Dragona doesn't see this topic.

 

[dark10x]

So you just adimitted that you download a rom AND you posted impressions of your pirating session? Better hope Dragona doesn't see this topic.

No, actually. Nowhere in that particular quote did I mention the downloading of illegal material. I simply noted documented features of freeware emulator software in addition to mentioning information easily obtainable on any message board or similar internet outlet related to these emulators.

Even if I had actually used this software on an emulator (which I did not specifically state), I never mentioned the downloading of such software.

You should also keep in mind, however, that there have been entire NON-LOCKED threads dedicated to emulating the Nintendo 64 on this very forum.

 

[jett]

No, actually. Nowhere in that particular quote did I mention the downloading of illegal material. I simply noted documented features of freeware emulator software in addition to mentioning information easily obtainable on any message board or similar internet outlet related to these emulators.

Even if I had actually used this software on an emulator (which I did not specifically state), I never mentioned the downloading of such software.

You should also keep in mind, however, that there have been entire NON-LOCKED threads dedicated to emulating the Nintendo 64 on this very forum.

Hehe, I was just kidding, I doubt you're going to get banned.

Anyway, I don't remember any slowdown in Mario 64 either, it was silky smooth for me.

 

[Odnetnin]

No, actually. Nowhere in that particular quote did I mention the downloading of illegal material. I simply noted documented features of freeware emulator software in addition to mentioning information easily obtainable on any message board or similar internet outlet related to these emulators.

Even if I had actually used this software on an emulator (which I did not specifically state), I never mentioned the downloading of such software.

You should also keep in mind, however, that there have been entire NON-LOCKED threads dedicated to emulating the Nintendo 64 on this very forum.

I guess that makes it okay.


On topic. I think the discussion is pointless as is. Why get into a technical discussion now that the games are out as they are? The best gauge of the DS version is how it enables you to play it on the go and the subtle improvements + mingames. This thread is really more about DS hardware than the game itself. All the talk about N64 slowdown.. does it matter? Who plays their N64 much anymore? Without the DS version, you guys wouldn't even be debating the merits of the N64 engine for SM64. Are we going to have to debate every N64 port that comes along?

and its a launch title. If they redid SM64 again for N64 later in the gen, it would probably be a nicer looking / running title too.