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[kevm3]

Since the gloves are thinner in competitions such as UFC than boxing gloves, is anyone else curious beesides me the kind of damage a prime Tyson or even Foreman punch would do? I bet those blows would be brutal.

 

[Biff Hardbody]

I've been training for 21 years now, and please, do not believe any of this hype. There is no such thing as a best style (it's probably already been said). I love MMA as much as the next guy, but these are athletes and their results are not indicative of what you shouold personally expect. Rickson Gracie can win as many competitions as he wants to, it doesn't mean you'll beat the dork down the street if you train under him. You do not have his mind, his history, his thought processes, etc etc etc. The best way to find a style that would work for you is to try a few out. It'll all depend on you, and how much you put into it. What advantages and disadvantages you have going into it, and most importantly your mind. If you're inflexible, do not try Tae Kwon Do, if the thought of grappling while on the concrete does not appeal to you, do not put all of your energy into a grappling art, if you aren't willing to put alot into it, do not stick with Shaolin. There are no easy answers here,this shit doesn't happen over night. A style is just at tool, what matter is how YOU personally adapt to it. Just because Krav Maga throws rapid fire elbows and knees, does not mean it will be effective for you.

Its true, we can't all hope to be a Dan Gable if we train wrestling or an Ueshiba if we train Aikido. And, we should all train with what fits us. The jist of your post though, I disagree with. Certain styles have had a great amount of success in competition, there must be something to them. To just bury your head in the sand because you've been doing something else for a long time and say "That doesn't apply to me" is a delusional attitude.

I've seen it many times. Even if what your training in is effective, you can still be delusional if you don't keep an open mind. Wrestlers getting submitted because they don't learn finishing holds, boxers being taken down because they don't have good structure and takedown defense, the list goes on.

WTF does "MMA is the style with the least rules" even mean? That's an empty statement. Competitions have rules, not styles. noise.

Actually, I said "fight with least amount of rules". Not that it matters, because I'm sure everyone gets the jist of what I am trying to say.

For example a primary tactic of Wing Chun is eye gouging, throat strikes and things of that nature. If you're willing to dismiss this just because you don't see it in competition, you're a fool.

Is a primary tactic of Wing Chun to fall on the ground and roll around like two ten year olds in a schoolyard brawl? Because that's what two Wing Chun masters did when they had a fight.

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=22

Thank you for mentioning Wing Chun, because its a text book example of why that type of training is no good. These two guys are supposed masters of their art, yet when they meet eachother in a non controled setting their techniques fall apart. Where is the chi sau? The chain punching? The eye gouging and shin kicking that is to devastating for the ring?

In fact all traditional stytles are primarily for attacking Vital Areas. No competetions allow this, and no competetions should. Competition is about sport, and it'd be ridiculous to break a guys knee with a low kick to win a competetion. The sportsman way is to get him in a leglock and give him the oppurtunity to submit.

Hsing I is a traditional style and it isn't primarily attacking vital areas. The main target is essentialy the same as boxing, the head.

From what you write, I don't think you have a good idea about the compeition we are speaking of. They can be incredibly brutal. Watch any Vanderlei Silva, Kid Yamamoto, or Igor Vovchanchyn hilite and tell me how sportsmanlike it is. Hell, look at boxing. Joe Frazier, Rocky Marciano, Jack Dempsey were as rough as you get. Modern boxers, Muay Thai, wrestlers, football players, hockey players, MMA...they are all far tougher then any Wing Chun man I've seen.

The man who can gain positonal dominance is the one who will be able to use the dirty moves effectively. If you can't gain control, a last minute kick to the groin isn't going to help you. You won't be able to make it happen.

The streets are a totally different animal. I'm not saying that they'd walk over MMA fighters in the street or anything childish like that. I'm saying that they are apples and oranges. All claims of superiority should be seen as nothing more than a marketing campaign to bring the noobs in in droves. It shouldn't be the point of legitimate discussions on the Martial Arts. Unless your style makes you impervious to all attacks thrown by all attackers from any one system, you too can get your ass wiped. So kill the noise.

I don't think anyone here is saying that a certain style will make you imprevious to anything. Nothing is certain. What I, and some others are saying that certain styles will prepare you better for such encounters because you are gaining experience against an actual opponent and not shadow boxing half baked.

Street fights are scary because of the factor of unpredictability. It isn't a controlled enviroment like a MMA fight. Weapons, multiple opponents, terrain all are strong factors. That being said, the few street encounters I've had are pretty much a joke. Mostly just grabbing someone and shoving them, lots of macho bullshit. Its takes a whole different level of discipline and toughness to step into the gym and spar with a good, trained fighter.

This isn't marketing. I could give a fuck about what the new fad is. I practice what is effective.

My beef (or Biff if you will ) is that while these styles have evolved differently now, it still doesn't mean it's ineffective as a combative art. I read your post and that's the message I got from you. I don't think that's the case. I think all the martial arts forums are effective but judging the art by the general practioners doesn't do it justice especially in a day and age where combat is not something we need to worry about on a daily basis. To judge a style, you need to look at the very best that it can produce and not the average person. I wouldn't go into a Muay Thai training area and judge the style using the beginners and intermediates as a model

I see your point. But, at the same time when only a small degree of competent fighters are emerging from one style and a much higher degree are coming from another, it makes one take notice.

I think you misunderstood me. When I said you insulted these martial arts, I meant when you said that they were ineffective styles of combat. I agree with you that there's a lot delusional fools out there that parade around like they're king of the world. However, I think it's insulting to say that the style, in its history, is ineffective. If you had said, "I think Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and etc as they are taught today is ineffective as a combative" I wouldn't have jumped on you but you talked about the style itself and not the period.

Well, I see your point. Perhaps I should have worded myself better. At the same time, I never said that in the history of the above mentioned art they were always ineffective. Quite the contrary I said at one point in time I am sure they were very good, and that there are even exceptions today. I see your point. I'm using black and white terms in this case, which aren't fair to everyone.

Wow, that's cool. Is he as great a guy as he appears to be?

I met Renzo briefly like a year ago. He was cool as shit, totally down to earth. Even though there are lots of tough guys at Renzo's, there's a feeling of family there. I probably won't see Renzo much though, because he teaches at night and I'll be taking the day classes.

 

[NLB2]

Man, I wish I could've found a good shot of his one boxing-gloved hand.

I could own Gracie or any MMA practioner so hard. Nothing beats ken juitsu except for a gun.

 

[DaveH]

Street fights are scary because of the factor of unpredictability. It isn't a controlled enviroment like a MMA fight. Weapons, multiple opponents, terrain all are strong factors. That being said, the few street encounters I've had are pretty much a joke. Mostly just grabbing someone and shoving them, lots of macho bullshit. Its takes a whole different level of discipline and toughness to step into the gym and spar with a good, trained fighter.

This isn't marketing. I could give a fuck about what the new fad is. I practice what is effective.

I think this highlights a difference between MMA and defense/self-preservation. As one person put it, "In Self Preservation training the fight exists for the fighter. In Mixed Martial Arts the fighter exists for the fight. In Self Preservation the fighter fights because he has to. In MMA the fighter fights because he wants to. MMA is geared toward glory. Self Preservation is geared toward avoiding violence. MMA operates in a ring. Self Preservation operates in a hallway or a living room at 2:00am. MMA is about winning. Self Preservation is about escaping." (personally, I think this quote puts down MMA too much...)

To that end, should people be getting involved in "macho bull"? I mean there's no question that the top MMA practitioners are skilled and dangerous athletes... but they're honestly not training for the "street"; certainly not more than they're training for the ring. Essentially glory, leading- possibly- to more chest bumping "macho bull" on the outside?

Effectiveness with in the rules MMA is likely king (as MMA is not really a style but just "survival of the fittest"), but outside of that- if your goal is effectiveness of self preservation (on the street, etc) and you don't have 40 hours a week to train- using tools (guns, for example) and fighting "dirty" will give more people a fighting chance more quickly than MMA. On one hand, bulking up at the gym will probably lower your incident of attacks (would it attract more macho bull though?), but so does open carrying a piece on your hip.

I'm saying there is some marketing involved. All martial artists have a tendency to obsess about the "street effectiveness" of their art... however rarely it will be used as such. To that end, many self defense types are also on the extreme end of paranoia on top of which they lack the conditioning (less physical, but more "live" sparring type) operating in their heads for doomsday scenarios... but lacking the practical skills.

My point is simply this. If your 90 lbs girlfriend said, "I'm in danger and I need to get effective quick." You'd be betraying her by saying, "Work out and train 40 hours a week, bulk up to 250 lbs of muscle, study wrestling, kick boxing, BJJ, etc. and you will be safe." The obession with "effectiveness" is really just a chest bumping marketing tool tacked on top of ALL martial arts (not an all together bad thing, the thoughts of "I can take him!" or "I can handle myself here", promotes self confidence at the least... question is whether- for some- they need anymore confidence!) not so much a reality. To a degree, martial arts simply aren't anymore. Our armed forces- our martial forces- do not spend hours a week training how to apply flying arm bars. It's not that I wouldn't want them to know and it's not that it isn't effective... it's just not effective compared to tool use, etc. The relevancy of martial arts effectiveness outside of the ring is questionable, it's much better to emphasize the true strengths and goals of most martial arts; which isn't "street effectiveness" as there are more effecient paths....

 

[Biff Hardbody]

Oh, I agree with you there. I won't lie to a small girl and say martial arts, whatever style will help her against a huge man intent on hurting her. That wasn't my argument. I was just speaking about what will give you actual fighting skill.

When you get to a point, you realize you don't need to use these things. Its much easier to difuse a situation with words. The few times I've had anything happen on the street, I could have been smarter and made it go away. If your arguing about using your mind and feeling for real self defense, I won't argue with you there.

 

[Malakhov]

I've just followed my first course of Krav Maga today and let me tell you, it's something. I wouldn't mess with that coach of ours. He'd probably kill me empty handed in about 5 seconds.