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Mask Efficacy |OT| Wuhan!! Got You All In Check
- Thread starter keraj37
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ManaByte
Banned
Gov. Newsom Says He Is in ‘No Hurry’ to Reopen Disneyland, Universal Studios Hollywood
Bob Iger's exit from Newsom's task force "didn't come as a surprise to me at all," said the governor.
variety.com
He'll start to be in a hurry when Disney and Universal start throwing money at the recall effort.
We would expect the proportion of people dying of a given ailment, and in general, to remain fairly static over time. That's what allows us to calculate "excess deaths" in the first place. So at any given moment we can choose to include a given proportion of those deaths (eg. people dying of a respiratory deaths) in the coronavirus figures. And that may be terribly wrong, and artificially inflate the death counts, but it is still a fixed effect. Once we are already counting those respiratory deaths each day, we can't count them a second time, and we would ordinarily expect the respiratory death rate to be fairly constant. So if we see daily deaths double in the following week, we can't say: "yes but we are counting all these extra deaths", since they were already being counted the week before.
So I don't think these differences in how we measure the death rate can be used to account for significant growth, unless we have made a measurement change between the two periods we are comparing. For example, if in one period we needed a positive test result to register a death as coronavirus related, but in the next period we merely require the doctor's belief that the death was due to the coronavirus, then that may explain a greater recorded death rate in the second period. But that difference should be visible as a change in policy that we can observe.
I think the choice of how far back we go when counting coronavirus deaths illustrates this well. Check out the two graphs on this page for deaths within 28 days and deaths within 60 days:
There are more deaths at 60 days than there are at 30 days, but does the overall pattern look much different to you? If not, then it's likely because the likelihood that a person will die doesn't change massively from month to month. So, including deaths over a greater period bumps up the absolute values, but doesn't change the fundamental pattern of the data.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Gov. Newsom Says He Is in ‘No Hurry’ to Reopen Disneyland, Universal Studios Hollywood
Bob Iger's exit from Newsom's task force "didn't come as a surprise to me at all," said the governor.
He'll start to be in a hurry when Disney and Universal start throwing money at the recall effort.
If I was the head of Disney parks I would have a chat with Greg Abbott in Texas and then make sure word of it got back to Gav.
Disneyland doesn’t need to be in California.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Covid vaccine 'rolled out NEXT MONTH'
Leaked provisional documents have revealed the plan for hundreds of NHS staff to be deployed in five mass vaccination sites across the country - injecting tens of thousands of the public each day.
Euclid's Bendy Water
Banned
The uk government released legislation last month (with no advertisement whatsover apart from posting it on there website with a 3 week consultation period) for the Covid vaccination to be released unlicenced and made the companies producing it immune from prosecution.Covid vaccine 'rolled out NEXT MONTH'
Leaked provisional documents have revealed the plan for hundreds of NHS staff to be deployed in five mass vaccination sites across the country - injecting tens of thousands of the public each day.www.dailymail.co.uk
The current record for a vaccine making it to market that i can find is 4.5 years , and they want a mass vaccination program with a unlicenced vaccine for a virus they claimed they new nothing about till the start of the year?.
Absolutely no chance i'll be having that...good luck to anyone that does.
SpiceRacz
Member
The uk government released legislation last month (with no advertisement whatsover apart from posting it on there website with a 3 week consultation period) for the Covid vaccination to be released unlicenced and made the companies producing it immune from prosecution.
The current record for a vaccine making it to market that i can find is 4.5 years , and they want a mass vaccination program with a unlicenced vaccine for a virus they claimed they new nothing about till the start of the year?.
Absolutely no chance i'll be having that...good luck to anyone that does.
I thought I had read somewhere that some or most of these were based on exisiting vaccines that had been tested like crazy already. We'll see though. I probably won't take it either whenever it rolls out.
ManaByte
Banned
Correct. The Oxford vaccine is one they were developing for SARS. They've had it for over a decade.
H
hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah I'm not touching that with a 50 foot pole. Untested, unlicensed and we can't sue? No chance.
prag16
Banned
This assumes the vaccine(s) are safe and effective. A lot of people are wary of this fast tracked shit, and rightfully so (and not just because 'orange man bad' though it's convenient that after spending years pushing mandatory vaccine mandates all across the country, Trump has turned Dems into antivaxxers lol).
cryptoadam
Banned
Effect of school closures on mortality from coronavirus disease 2019: old and new predictions
Objective To replicate and analyse the information available to UK policymakers when the lockdown decision was taken in March 2020 in the United Kingdom. Design Independent calculations using the CovidSim code, which implements Imperial College London’s individual based model, with data...
Chittagong
Gold Member
I am warming up to the idea. If people would knuckle down properly for just two weeks, maybe the charade wouldn’t need to go on week in week out
I read today that at least 30% of infections among under-30s has been attributed to pubs and restaurants.
It seems Brits' penchant for booze and eating out is making it harder to get things under control. After seeing all those photos of people packing out pubs, bars and restaurants across the country in recent weeks, I can't say I'm surprised.
diffusionx
Gold Member
So what, they’re going to get it at some point. This idea the virus can be controlled or stopped or eradicated with lockdowns is just so insanely dumb.
I don't think anyone thinks lockdowns can eradicate the virus. It's more about making things more manageable for the health service and reducing the number of indirect deaths as result of extra Covid admissions. The only real solution to solving this problem is a viable vaccine.
diffusionx
Gold Member
And what if we never get a vaccine? Just giving these governments endless power to close businesses and force people inside whenever they want? It’s absurd.
Like I said, 100% if people are going to get COVID if they haven’t already. We need to accept that and plan accordingly. Whoever is going to die from COVID is going to die from it. There is no avoiding this.
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Euclid's Bendy Water
Banned
Meanwhile the 'health service' is not treating the vast majority of other risks to health that the health service was for before Covid 19 came along...currently 24th in the mortality list.
cryptoadam
Banned
Vaccine most likely will not be 100% effective. Flu vaccines are only 50-60% effective. Even Fauci himself is setting expectations a bit low
So everyone saying Vaccines will set us free, be prepared to continue giving power to officials that they say you have no say in. Even if you get the shot you will still have 25-50% chance of it not working and catching CV.
So expect masks and lockdowns for a very long time unless the virus just disappears of the face of the planet.
So everyone saying Vaccines will set us free, be prepared to continue giving power to officials that they say you have no say in. Even if you get the shot you will still have 25-50% chance of it not working and catching CV.
So expect masks and lockdowns for a very long time unless the virus just disappears of the face of the planet.
diffusionx
Gold Member
That feeling when you realize that "more tests" was always a strategy to pump up gaudy numbers as a way to scare people and keep things from getting back to normal.
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diffusionx
Gold Member
When the fear mongering hits too close to home:
www.businessinsider.com
Fauci's kids won't see him during Thanksgiving because they're scared of killing him. He says he is fine with them coming to visit, which should say a lot about how Fauci personally feels about COVID.
How many more Thanksgiving does this old bastard have left? That's one less without his children, awful.
Fauci said his daughters refuse to visit for Thanksgiving, telling him: 'You're a young, vigorous guy, but you're 79 years old'
The women would be traveling from cities that don't have low coronavirus-infection rates. They said they would rather send their love via Zoom.
www.businessinsider.com
Fauci's kids won't see him during Thanksgiving because they're scared of killing him. He says he is fine with them coming to visit, which should say a lot about how Fauci personally feels about COVID.
How many more Thanksgiving does this old bastard have left? That's one less without his children, awful.
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Joe T.
Member
We would expect the proportion of people dying of a given ailment, and in general, to remain fairly static over time. That's what allows us to calculate "excess deaths" in the first place. So at any given moment we can choose to include a given proportion of those deaths (eg. people dying of a respiratory deaths) in the coronavirus figures. And that may be terribly wrong, and artificially inflate the death counts, but it is still a fixed effect. Once we are already counting those respiratory deaths each day, we can't count them a second time, and we would ordinarily expect the respiratory death rate to be fairly constant. So if we see daily deaths double in the following week, we can't say: "yes but we are counting all these extra deaths", since they were already being counted the week before.
So I don't think these differences in how we measure the death rate can be used to account for significant growth, unless we have made a measurement change between the two periods we are comparing. For example, if in one period we needed a positive test result to register a death as coronavirus related, but in the next period we merely require the doctor's belief that the death was due to the coronavirus, then that may explain a greater recorded death rate in the second period. But that difference should be visible as a change in policy that we can observe.
I think the choice of how far back we go when counting coronavirus deaths illustrates this well. Check out the two graphs on this page for deaths within 28 days and deaths within 60 days:
There are more deaths at 60 days than there are at 30 days, but does the overall pattern look much different to you? If not, then it's likely because the likelihood that a person will die doesn't change massively from month to month. So, including deaths over a greater period bumps up the absolute values, but doesn't change the fundamental pattern of the data.
There's no reason to expect the outcomes to remain the same when the circumstances have changed a great deal since the start of the year. I'd like to hope the level of fear has come down somewhat even for the poor souls that are exclusively getting their information from the mainstream sources because we know for a fact treatments are being used now that weren't in March/April and, at the very least, they're shortening hospital stays. There was a rush to throw every serious case on ventilators early on, questionably skipping over oxygen masks altogether in some cases, and that doesn't seem to be the case at all right now.
It's inexcusable to me that the news media and elected leaders are still trusted by the general public when they're both working so hard to obscure the full picture. Just yesterday the municipal government here and the news media were directly contradicting each other on one of the most important factors behind the overwhelming majority of Canada's deaths, that long term care facilities/old age homes are "now under control." You can trust the public health officials in government, you can trust the news media or the doctors they invite on air, but you can't trust them all when they're in direct opposition to each other.
Anyone still asking "Why don't people trust the experts?" is either very out of touch or lucky enough to live in a corner of the world where this piss poor reporting isn't tolerated and normalized.
I think prospect of a future where there is no vaccine isn't discussed enough. Everyone seems to be naively pinning their hopes on the vaccine being effective and things going back to normal next year. I agree that the lockdowns are damaging both economically and psychologically. But the thinking behind it seems to be about managing the virus. If all the local ICUs are overwhelmed, then people who are seriously ill but haven't got covid may end up dying because they can't get a bed.
The fact that the NHS isn't even that good compared to other health services only makes matters worse.
Perhaps the solution is to just view it as the ultimate survival of the fittest test – whoever is gonna die will die. But will the British public accept that? I dunno.
Personally, I'm adjusting to the idea that the virus is not going to disappear anytime soon.
I agree and that's why I thought the religious-like worshipping of “Our NHS” earlier this year was ridiculous.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Has there been anything close to an overwhelmed ICU because of COVID in the UK though? That's the thing that frustrates me, the lockdown maniacs always talk about muh collapsed health system, but it just seems more theoretical than anything, with the possible exception of Italy, but Italy barely functions on a good day. And it happened in Italy when we really had no idea how to treat people - we can do it much better now. Even when cases were exploding in CA/FL/TX in the summer, we didn't really have this problem, outside of a few small border hospitals, where people theorized that Mexicans were coming over for the better American treatment. I don't remember a single picture of an overwhelmed California hospital, and if there were, we would have seen it. And, of course - Sweden. Bottom line, I think everything points to the fact that we can indeed handle this virus moving through the population as it is going to do.
It's amazing how the media rolled out the "hero doctor" thing just like they did soldiers when they had a war to sell in the early 00s. People forget this stuff.
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I read this earlier about hospitals in the north of England. It sounds as if the rise in Covid cases has already started to disrupt things:
Hospitals in north of England 'to run out of Covid beds within a week'
Health chiefs warn they plan to ditch routine surgery as second wave seriously disrupts NHS
Hospitals in north of England 'to run out of Covid beds within a week'
Health chiefs warn they plan to ditch routine surgery as second wave seriously disrupts NHS
www.theguardian.com
diffusionx
Gold Member
I read this earlier about hospitals in the north of England. It sounds as if the rise in Covid cases has already started to disrupt things:
Hospitals in north of England 'to run out of Covid beds within a week'
Health chiefs warn they plan to ditch routine surgery as second wave seriously disrupts NHS
Hospitals in north of England 'to run out of Covid beds within a week'
Health chiefs warn they plan to ditch routine surgery as second wave seriously disrupts NHS
"Hospitals full in a week" is scare mongering though. It is saying that maybe, in a week, they will have trouble fitting people in. Or not. It is not saying, "Hospitals full. Everyone has COVID. Staff can't treat people anymore. No more supplies. Healthcare system collapsed. People dying outside because there is no room. Don't bother calling 911, because ambulances can't help you." Because that's what everyone was saying and is saying is going to happen, yet it obviously never does.
Also - hospitals do get full. The regular old influenza fills up hospitals every few years, the media just never reports on it. I can even find articles on American hospitals in big cities setting up flu tents a couple years ago because of it.
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prag16
Banned
Hell flu shots are significantly lower than that some years. Some estimates have had the efficacy as low as 10% some years, though 40-60% is usually considered closer to the norm. Many officialls including Fauci if I recall correctly have stated that they consider 50% "pretty good" and something they would be satisfied with more or less with regard to the prospective COVID shots.
So yeah, all the "run out the clock until the vaccine" people... you may face a crossroads at some point. When faced with continued draconian mitigation measures even after the vaccine is available, will you roll over and lick some boots, or will you join us in calling for the end to this madness?
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Chittagong
Gold Member
The vaccine math is interesting. If
10% has had covid
we need basically one of the following combos to be true for herd immunity (assuming 60% and no cross immunity).
50% efficient - 100% vaccinated
70% efficient - 70% vaccinated
100% efficient - 50% vaccinated
I’d say we need cross immunity and/or more infections to push through to 60%
10% has had covid
we need basically one of the following combos to be true for herd immunity (assuming 60% and no cross immunity).
50% efficient - 100% vaccinated
70% efficient - 70% vaccinated
100% efficient - 50% vaccinated
I’d say we need cross immunity and/or more infections to push through to 60%
diffusionx
Gold Member
ZeroHedge
ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zerowww.zerohedge.com
it’s literally just the flu, bro
this madness needs to end
Seems an appropriate place to leave this: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/...BlDIcJ21RgCHNeJ6qrZqvy1v7aJO5bSs98eZ81FiX4NhI
So now the WHO thinks a .14% IFR and 10% of the world has had it (despite what the number say). I mean, not that the WHO is all that reliable, but it speaks to the insanity going on right now.
T8SC
Member
Hundreds of thousands of vulnerable people face being told to stay at home this winter as ministers plan to resume shielding in infection hotspots, reports the Times. The paper says advice for clinically vulnerable people to avoid others could be included in the top tier of the government's simplified local lockdown system, which are set to be announced next week.
CrapSandwich
former Navy SEAL
Lockdowns not only don't produce meaningful mitigation, but the hysteria that drives them is causing catastrophic health outcomes, mental health outcomes, and economic destruction. Lockdowners share a singular focus on covid, while altogether disregarding the negative consequences of their shared hysteria that is fueling politicians in their tunnel-vision pursuit of reduced cases, no matter the cost. This hysteria is actually killing people and fueling negative consequences that will reach far into the future, consequences that nobody really has any kind of solid grasp on. Thankfully, the tide is starting to turn as rationality is actually managing to work its way into the conversation. That's still an uphill battle when you're talking about an argument against primitive emotionality that's been bulwarked by a sense of self-righteous indignation, but hey, it's something. Here's a not terrible article about John Ioannidis who is helping to sound the alarm.
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investig...r-in-place-orders-are-killing-people/2376796/
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investig...r-in-place-orders-are-killing-people/2376796/
MisterFalcon
Member
A scientist who has been spectacularly wrong in the past should not be trusted if she's repeating the same mistake.
Professor Sunetra Gupta: the epidemic is on its way out, May 21st 2020
God no, I can't take the bitching and conspiracy theories of you guys anymore.. better hope the vaccine is the saviour of us all..
Joe T.
Member
The line you're taking exception to is largely irrelevant to the conversation - can dismiss every doctor on the planet using that logic, Fauci included - but it practically came to pass in parts of the world if you're open to the idea that cases, hospitalizations and even deaths were/are mischaracterized. I imagine you're not. As she said, "[positive] cases you can't rely on at all" when it comes to policy making which was spot on, but very few of our governments are listening.
Now forgive me as I drop a wall of text because it requires that we go back to analyze what happened and why if we're to learn anything from this.
By the time mid-June rolled around here the virus was slowly starting to fade into the background and a month later, without any rational explanation, the government imposed a mandatory mask order for all indoor spaces. It would serve as a constant reminder of the "invisible enemy"/danger as our numbers kept decreasing. They wanted to make sure the fear and anxiety remained even though numbers kept declining.
The PCR tests produce a high number of false positives at around 1% positivity rate. The public is led to believe it's impossible to get rid of/"win" against the virus because the low standard for detecting it ensured positive results would keep coming regardless of what we did. There was also the informative NYT story on the oversensitivity of those PCR tests - I found out Quebec labs are using 37-40 cycles which helps explain the absurd numbers here. Those test results are useless to us, but not to authoritarian governments and definitely not to the pharmaceutical industry which currently has a self-sustaining cash cow on its hands.
Likewise, I was made aware of a doctor's remark on what looked like a TV show out of France where he said their positivity rate was 4% and out of that 95% were asymptomatic. Another doctor serving as a member of French national assembly, Martine Wonner, raised a stink over the fact that hospitals there were giving very low amounts of oxygen (2 Lpm) to patients which was pointless and used simply to drive up hospitalization/ER numbers. These doctors are going against the narrative so they get attacked as conspiracy theorists, I watched it happen to a respected local doctor for saying this virus was more or less like a flu. You're ostracized if you don't tow the official line.
We're being played for fools thanks to the fearmongering that came gushing out of China and all the number fudging out of labs, hospitals and government officials. Think back to all the fake/misleading stories about children, teenagers and "healthy adults" dying to covid, all the stories about "long haulers" and serious complications, all the stories about hospitals being overwhelmed when the facts on the ground were much different... So much of it was wrong and only served to drive up fear.
Why aren't more people skeptical given the information we've been given?
The warning that numbers would shoot back up after lock downs ended never came to pass in New York and Quebec, the two hardest hit regions of their respective countries, and the same applied in a lot of other places. The numbers weren't ticking up fast enough with the return to school up here so they introduced a vague color-coded alert system, significantly boosted testing numbers and used the artificially inflated numbers to begin locking us down again. As our genius accountant turned minister of health said, 'increased testing numbers doesn't mean we're get more positive results, positivity rate is still the same.' Down in NYC, DeBlasio's apparently going the political route and locking down zip codes that voted red in 2016.
The exception where the easing of lock downs were accompanied by spikes had less to do with economic re-openings or protests and a lot more to do with drastic increases in testing capacity. I went to look over Florida's numbers and their testing capacity increased 500% from June to July. I noticed a 450% jump in testing capacity from May to July in Georgia, too. I assume it was a similar situation in California, Arizona and Texas.
Trump is a clumsy communicator, but he had it right: the panic put forth by media and opportunistic politicians (re: "opened too early") was simply based on the record amounts of testing they were doing.
I walked by a local hospital the media claimed was "overflowing" with patients last week, curious after seeing a photo on Twitter showing it practically empty, and sure enough there was almost no one there. If they're this brazen with deceiving the public on positive case numbers and "overflowing hospitals" I can only imagine what games they're playing with the hospitalization numbers and deaths they report every day.
How many times can a person be played for a fool before saying enough is enough and start demanding the truth? Millions have passed that point already. This isn't a liberal or conservative fight either, don't fall into that divisive trap. This is hurting us all, the deception more than the virus itself.
carlosrox
Banned
When the fear mongering hits too close to home:
Fauci said his daughters refuse to visit for Thanksgiving, telling him: 'You're a young, vigorous guy, but you're 79 years old'
The women would be traveling from cities that don't have low coronavirus-infection rates. They said they would rather send their love via Zoom.
Fauci's kids won't see him during Thanksgiving because they're scared of killing him. He says he is fine with them coming to visit, which should say a lot about how Fauci personally feels about COVID.
How many more Thanksgiving does this old bastard have left? That's one less without his children, awful.
Whoops!
I'm positive that many people use COVID as an excuse to be anti-social assholes.
"Oh sweet I can wear a mask to cover my ugly face I'm self conscious about.
Cool, people I know won't even recognize me cuz I have a mask on!
Great, I don't have to fake nice and socialize with people.
Awesome, I don't need to shake hands with people anymore.
Nice, I don't have to see or visit people I pretend to like/care about."
I wasn't born fucking yesterday. I know things. I can tell by the way people act that they are using COVID as some sort of Larry David style social deflection tactic. I can see right through people.
Maybe the human race deserves to be wiped out.
Now tell me, am I lying?
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prag16
Banned
Lmao, Fauci scared the shit out of his own kids. Maybe he'll privately reveal to them that covid is no big deal to get them to still come visit.
Just out of curiosity I checked the testing numbers and testing positivity rate here in Ohio. Last time I looked at this was a couple months ago when we were sitting at about a 4.2-4.4% positivity rate on 25k or so tests a day.
I saw yesterday our "case numbers surge" and was curious. Turns out we have been testing 30-40K a day now for the last month. Testing positivity rates are currently sitting at 3.3% over the last 7 days and had dipped as low as 2.8% a week or two ago. So yes, a bit of an upward trend in testing positivity rates here, but still down from the peak when all the mask mandates and nonsense went in. All the while, we are testing 20 to 60% more people daily. In raw numbers our case counts have been generally the same. Yesterday hit around 1500 and the new cases number has been trending upward.
I'm willing to bet this is heavily tied to colleges being back in session. My cousin, who is college aged, got diagnosed with COVID yesterday. So I'm willing bet this spike in cases is 100% tied to college kids spreading it amongst themselves and there will be no meaningful increase in deaths or hospitalizations. BUT CASES!!!!!!!
When you actually dig into the data, there's a lot more there then what the media tells you. But digging into the data also gets you labeled as a conspiracy theorist. Probably because math, statistics and data analysis are racist.
I saw yesterday our "case numbers surge" and was curious. Turns out we have been testing 30-40K a day now for the last month. Testing positivity rates are currently sitting at 3.3% over the last 7 days and had dipped as low as 2.8% a week or two ago. So yes, a bit of an upward trend in testing positivity rates here, but still down from the peak when all the mask mandates and nonsense went in. All the while, we are testing 20 to 60% more people daily. In raw numbers our case counts have been generally the same. Yesterday hit around 1500 and the new cases number has been trending upward.
I'm willing to bet this is heavily tied to colleges being back in session. My cousin, who is college aged, got diagnosed with COVID yesterday. So I'm willing bet this spike in cases is 100% tied to college kids spreading it amongst themselves and there will be no meaningful increase in deaths or hospitalizations. BUT CASES!!!!!!!
When you actually dig into the data, there's a lot more there then what the media tells you. But digging into the data also gets you labeled as a conspiracy theorist. Probably because math, statistics and data analysis are racist.
Euclid's Bendy Water
Banned
Interesting article and i would like to see any evidence that can refute it.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
It's almost impossible to imagine a conventional politician as president (as opposed to Trump) doing something this drastic back in Feb. Especially considering Fauci et. al. were downplaying it and Democrats were saying that not going to Chinese New Year parades was racist.
MisterFalcon
Member
Here it is.
A little preview:
6841 tctatgccga ctactatagc aaagaatact gttaagagtg tcggtaaatt ttgtctagag
6901 gcttcattta attatttgaa gtcacctaat ttttctaaac tgataaatat tataatttgg
6961 tttttactat taagtgtttg cctaggttct ttaatctact caaccgctgc tttaggtgtt
7021 ttaatgtcta atttaggcat gccttcttac tgtactggtt acagagaagg ctatttgaac
7081 tctactaatg tcactattgc aacctactgt actggttcta taccttgtag tgtttgtctt
7141 agtggtttag attctttaga cacctatcct tctttagaaa ctatacaaat taccatttca
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Nymphae
Banned
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cryptoadam
Banned
The idea of lockdowns have become so normalized in the last 6 months that people don't realize how radical and foreing of an idea they actually are.
Ya no one in Jan/Feb was thinking about shutting down the entire world and locking everyone in their homes and putting millions of people out of work/business. It was an idea so crazy and insane it literally sounded like bad science fiction.
But now its become normalized where people are like ya lockdowns of course who wouldn't of done them. Its totally normal to force everyone in their homes and to wear a mask and to arrest people just for going for a walk. Its just funny how quick that happened.
MisterFalcon
Member
This genome is the virus at its most basic, detailed molecular level. That car you are talking about existed originally as technical drawings. What you are saying is that in order for the first car to be built you have to have the car already.
So cars cannot exist.
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iconmaster
Banned
Nymphae
Banned
How do they get the genome if they haven't isolated the virus?
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