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[Rien]

They will meet COVID soon enough , and see what it does to some , their parents etc ... maybe they need that to understand and behave. I am just sad that this is a big part of the world , running around as complete idiots .

most likely.

There are "long haul COVID sufferers" who don't even have a positive test to speak of, antibody or PCR.




Sounds like something is seriously wrong with Dutch hospitals if, 7 months into this pandemic, they can't manage capacity. Your country needs to get its shit together.

what we need to do is ban alcohol for the coming period and see how it has effect on the responsibility from certain people.

I know it’s not a populair opinion and I am the last person to want to ban drugs but we are grown folks and it seems we can’t behave normal with alcohol.. (not me. I don’t drink)

 

[sinnergy]

Lockdown best way for fast economic recovery!



#wuhanstylelockdownnow

 

[hariseldon]

Lockdown best way for fast economic recovery!



#wuhanstylelockdownnow

#chinesetotalitarianregimenow

 

[Rien]

Lockdown best way for fast economic recovery!



#wuhanstylelockdownnow

We’ll hear tonight I guess.. what do you expect Rutte will announce?

 

[Saruhashi]

most likely.



what we need to do is ban alcohol for the coming period and see how it has effect on the responsibility from certain people.

I know it’s not a populair opinion and I am the last person to want to ban drugs but we are grown folks and it seems we can’t behave normal with alcohol.. (not me. I don’t drink)

I think "not me, I don't drink" is the key thing here though. It doesn't impact you so you don't mind how it impacts others.

Same as "not me, I can work from home".

Same as "not me, I live with my family anyway".

Same as "not me, I work in an industry that is doing well even with the pandemic".

Same as "not me, my mental health is fine".

Its kind of insane how willing people are to demand that governments impose bans and restrictions so long as its other people who are mostly affected.

Sure, people can live without booze for a few weeks. Fine. I don't think it's a very reasonable idea to just ban it.

Some of the suggestions are the very definition of authoritarian but people seem cool with it so long as it doesn't affect them too severely.

The best way to look at people, especially young people, having house parties etc is to focus on protecting the elderly and vulnerable. Those young ones are pretty safe statistically so maybe just keep them informed and let them make their own judgements on the risks.

Imagine if every nation was able to cut the rate of infection in over 65s in half. You'd pretty much also be cutting the number of deaths in half. How many lives could have been saved by focusing entirely on care homes etc?

 

[Rien]

I think "not me, I don't drink" is the key thing here though. It doesn't impact you so you don't mind how it impacts others.

Same as "not me, I can work from home".

Same as "not me, I live with my family anyway".

Same as "not me, I work in an industry that is doing well even with the pandemic".

Same as "not me, my mental health is fine".

Its kind of insane how willing people are to demand that governments impose bans and restrictions so long as its other people who are mostly affected.

Sure, people can live without booze for a few weeks. Fine. I don't think it's a very reasonable idea to just ban it.

Some of the suggestions are the very definition of authoritarian but people seem cool with it so long as it doesn't affect them too severely.

The best way to look at people, especially young people, having house parties etc is to focus on protecting the elderly and vulnerable. Those young ones are pretty safe statistically so maybe just keep them informed and let them make their own judgements on the risks.

Imagine if every nation was able to cut the rate of infection in over 65s in half. You'd pretty much also be cutting the number of deaths in half. How many lives could have been saved by focusing entirely on care homes etc?

look I get what your saying

But your comparisons don’t really match up IMO.
in what length would you put alcohol in the same ballpark as the comparisons you make?
We are talking about a drug here, not a primary necessity of life itself.

We are not in a situation here where it’s “as long as it doesn’t impact me it’s fine”. It impacts everyone right now.

This is (not all of them ofc) the youngsters that can’t get to be responsible to do the right thing and think abt the bigger picture. Informing them didn’t help shit.

I wish it was different. Just because I don’t drink doesn’t mean I think nobody should.
But right now it’s availability is causing trouble for all of us.

 

[Liljagare]

Barbados actually did ban alcohol during the lockdown.

In other news, july–september -1,9 % deceased in Sweden compared to mean stats 2015-2019. SCB reports every part of Sweden has reported a undermortality since August.

 

[Saruhashi]

look I get what your saying

But your comparisons don’t really match up IMO.
in what length would you put alcohol in the same ballpark as the comparisons you make?
We are talking about a drug here, not a primary necessity of life itself.

We are not in a situation here where it’s “as long as it doesn’t impact me it’s fine”. It impacts everyone right now.

This is (not all of them ofc) the youngsters that can’t get to be responsible to do the right thing and think abt the bigger picture. Informing them didn’t help shit.

I wish it was different. Just because I don’t drink doesn’t mean I think nobody should.
But right now it’s availability is causing trouble for all of us.

What I'm saying though is shouldn't the decision to drink or not be up to the individual?

It seems like a small thing for government to say "OK lads alcohol is banned" but realistically it's a dangerous step to take.

If you think about local businesses in this context I really question if the government should have the ability to essentially say "we've decided you need to close for an undetermined amount of weeks and we can help you a little but can't cover your losses oh and if people you don't even have anything to do with won't obey the rules then you'll be shut down longer, have a nice day."

We're in a bad spot because while I think shutting absolutely everything down will definitely save some people from dying due to Covid now there is going to be a price to pay down the line. That price may very well also be measured in the number of lives lost.

This is where I think you do need to have leadership that will make informed and balanced decisions.

Alcohol is a good example because even something that seems like a small decision raises the question of how much power we actually want our governments to have over individual choices and our daily lives.

There is definitely a danger now of going too far and in the end we are risking it all on the possibility of a vaccine. What happens if the vaccine has unexpected delays or if it doesnt come at all?

Its possible I think to push people too far and ask them to give too much. You can't see your loved ones. You can't go to work. Now you're unemployed. You can't get a new job cos we shut everything down. Oh and now you can't even have a drink.

Its only temporary though. Honest.

 

[hyperbertha]

What's the latest on reinfections? A few cropped up last month and then nothing?

 

[Rien]

Barbados actually did ban alcohol during the lockdown.

In other news, july–september -1,9 % deceased in Sweden compared to mean stats 2015-2019. SCB reports every part of Sweden has reported a undermortality since August.

Did they do that from the beginning or was it an extra measure later on? If the latter. What were the results in numbers after that?

 

[DeepBreath87]

Did they do that from the beginning or was it an extra measure later on? If the latter. What were the results in numbers after that?

I don’t think you have any idea of the health consequences of banning alcohol.

 

[Rien]

What I'm saying though is shouldn't the decision to drink or not be up to the individual?

It seems like a small thing for government to say "OK lads alcohol is banned" but realistically it's a dangerous step to take.

If you think about local businesses in this context I really question if the government should have the ability to essentially say "we've decided you need to close for an undetermined amount of weeks and we can help you a little but can't cover your losses oh and if people you don't even have anything to do with won't obey the rules then you'll be shut down longer, have a nice day."

We're in a bad spot because while I think shutting absolutely everything down will definitely save some people from dying due to Covid now there is going to be a price to pay down the line. That price may very well also be measured in the number of lives lost.

This is where I think you do need to have leadership that will make informed and balanced decisions.

Alcohol is a good example because even something that seems like a small decision raises the question of how much power we actually want our governments to have over individual choices and our daily lives.

There is definitely a danger now of going too far and in the end we are risking it all on the possibility of a vaccine. What happens if the vaccine has unexpected delays or if it doesnt come at all?

Its possible I think to push people too far and ask them to give too much. You can't see your loved ones. You can't go to work. Now you're unemployed. You can't get a new job cos we shut everything down. Oh and now you can't even have a drink.

Its only temporary though. Honest.

Great reply! I think we are not that far off from each other by point of view

Look I am only reaching at straws here as well.
I don’t know what’s the solution. I don’t think taking away freedom of choice is the solution as well. especially of what your doing with your own body.

but what can you do with people that don’t listen? This is a weird time.
I have a big opinion about it for sure but if I were in the position to lead it would definitely be worse.

respect for your opinion btw. Stuff to think abt

I don’t think you have any idea of the health consequences of banning alcohol.

Care to elaborate on it?

 

[DeepBreath87]

Great reply! I think we are not that far off from each other by point of view

Look I am only reaching at straws here as well.
I don’t know what’s the solution. I don’t think taking away freedom of choice is the solution as well. especially of what your doing with your own body.

but what can you do with people that don’t listen? This is a weird time.
I have a big opinion about it for sure but if I were in the position to lead it would definitely be worse.

respect for your opinion btw. Stuff to think abt



Care to elaborate on it?

Sure. There are millions of people, least in the US with a physical dependency on alcohol. The process of withdrawal from alcohol isn’t just unpleasant. It is dangerous. Alcoholics many times require hospitalization if they try to quit suddenly. They also may become irrational and violent. Many alcoholics don’t take care of there overall health and have conditions that are exacerbated by the withdrawal process.

My state tried to close all its liquor stores and bars in March. Two weeks later the liquor stores were open again for this reason.

 

[Saruhashi]

but what can you do with people that don’t listen? This is a weird time.

Truthfully, I think there is nothing you can do. Unless you are willing to go down a very dark road potentially doing more harm than covid overall.

Around our way there are a decent number of people who are... shall we say anti-social... wrecks, junkies, deadbeats... you get my meaning.

A short drive to the city center and you can encounter hundreds of these types.

They aren't obeying shit and they never will. No masks. Shouting at each other in shops and being thrown out. Using public transport without masks. Spitting and shouting and getting in people's faces.

What can you do? They have no money so you can't fine them. Lock them up? For how long? What's their crime, really.

These folks don't give a fuck about people losing jobs when they have nothing themselves.

Yet it's not like we can round them up and the next day they've just "gone to live on a farm in the countryside".

On the other hand they are not exactly contributing to society and in the current time you could even see them as a danger.

We have morals though. At least I hope we do. You don't just throw people on the scrapheap because they won't do what they are told.

So what can we even do?

I would say what we should have done as soon as the data showed how severely this affected the elderly compared to everyone else. Protect the vulnerable. Tell them to stay home and immediately get to work on setting up services to keep them safe and happy and healthy.

If some 90 year old granny wants to say "go fuck yourselves" and go out and buy her own groceries then fine. That's her risk to take.

Otherwise instead of spending millions paying people to stay home let's create tons of new jobs and have people doing clean and safe and socially distanced grocery deliveries etc for our old folks. Set them up with tech that allows them to communicate with family etc.

Pay extra extra special care to nursing homes and hospitals and people who are using medical facilities regularly.

For most countries if we had cut down the deaths of over 65s then we would have cut down the death toll drastically.

When all this blows over our governments will be guilty of not only failing to protect the elderly but also guilty of destroying the futures of the young.

If the only answer people have is "more authoritarian rule" then we really are screwed.

 

[Saruhashi]

Sure. There are millions of people, least in the US with a physical dependency on alcohol. The process of withdrawal from alcohol isn’t just unpleasant. It is dangerous. Alcoholics many times require hospitalization if they try to quit suddenly. They also may become irrational and violent. Many alcoholics don’t take care of there overall health and have conditions that are exacerbated by the withdrawal process.

My state tried to close all its liquor stores and bars in March. Two weeks later the liquor stores were open again for this reason.

A quick Google confirms that 30% of Americans drink excessively and 3.5% have alcohol use disorder.

We could argue the ins and outs of it being a self inflicted problem but for sure it's a pretty huge problem.

Banning booze would be pretty catastrophic in the US and probably in most countries.

Though I think there's not really a good solution here in the end.

 

[DeepBreath87]

A quick Google confirms that 30% of Americans drink excessively and 3.5% have alcohol use disorder.

We could argue the ins and outs of it being a self inflicted problem but for sure it's a pretty huge problem.

Banning booze would be pretty catastrophic in the US and probably in most countries.

Though I think there's not really a good solution here in the end.

Eh, being fat is a self inflicted problem too. We don’t ban McDonald or soda. Being fat kills more people than covid by a wide margin. People are allowed to own their choices.

I think that’s what bothers me most about all the covid shit. If you get sick, you don’t get to blame other people. It’s just something that happens. If you’re scared, stay home. It’s safer there on the sense you won’t get sick. But if you go out, don’t bitch about what other people are doing. You are free to leave whatever place is making you uncomfortable.

The idea that it’s other people or the governments fault when you get sick is retarded. The government is not God. It cannot save you from getting sick without also having control over your entire life and even then it still won’t be able to. I do not want to give the government the responsibility for whether I catch a virus or not. That’s not their job.

 

[sinnergy]

We’ll hear tonight I guess.. what do you expect Rutte will announce?

Half measures , strict lock downs will not be done , Shame because evidence is pilling up that after a strict one the precious economy ( as named here ) will rebound much faster.

Rutte will point that we must behave and follow the rules . But most need to be handled as my 4 year old , enforce discipline and let enforcement enforce .

They had their change and did jack shit with their freedom , went on vacation and spread. And party .

 

[sinnergy]

Truthfully, I think there is nothing you can do. Unless you are willing to go down a very dark road potentially doing more harm than covid overall.

Around our way there are a decent number of people who are... shall we say anti-social... wrecks, junkies, deadbeats... you get my meaning.

A short drive to the city center and you can encounter hundreds of these types.

They aren't obeying shit and they never will. No masks. Shouting at each other in shops and being thrown out. Using public transport without masks. Spitting and shouting and getting in people's faces.

What can you do? They have no money so you can't fine them. Lock them up? For how long? What's their crime, really.

These folks don't give a fuck about people losing jobs when they have nothing themselves.

Yet it's not like we can round them up and the next day they've just "gone to live on a farm in the countryside".

On the other hand they are not exactly contributing to society and in the current time you could even see them as a danger.

We have morals though. At least I hope we do. You don't just throw people on the scrapheap because they won't do what they are told.

So what can we even do?

I would say what we should have done as soon as the data showed how severely this affected the elderly compared to everyone else. Protect the vulnerable. Tell them to stay home and immediately get to work on setting up services to keep them safe and happy and healthy.

If some 90 year old granny wants to say "go fuck yourselves" and go out and buy her own groceries then fine. That's her risk to take.

Otherwise instead of spending millions paying people to stay home let's create tons of new jobs and have people doing clean and safe and socially distanced grocery deliveries etc for our old folks. Set them up with tech that allows them to communicate with family etc.

Pay extra extra special care to nursing homes and hospitals and people who are using medical facilities regularly.

For most countries if we had cut down the deaths of over 65s then we would have cut down the death toll drastically.

When all this blows over our governments will be guilty of not only failing to protect the elderly but also guilty of destroying the futures of the young.

If the only answer people have is "more authoritarian rule" then we really are screwed.

Great points but for this to work infections first need to come down that they are manageable through a strict lock down first . Which none did except for China and new sealand .

 

[Jezbollah]

The UK are full of weak idiots as poltiicans. and public.

 

[Chittagong]

Wow, UK is on track for 500+ dead a day in a month’s time

Britain today recorded more than 100 coronavirus deaths for the first time in four months as officials announced 143 more victims.

Deaths now will largely be coming from people who caught the virus three or four weeks ago, when there were an average of around 3,000 cases per day (September 13), compared to the current 14-15,000 per day.

Britain records 100 Covid-19 deaths for the first time since June

Department of Health statistics show the grim milestone hadn't been hit since June 17, when 110 lab-confirmed fatalities were added to the tally.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[ManaByte]

 

[Jezbollah]

Starmer is a bellend.

 

[diffusionx]

If only Britain had a country that didn’t shut down it could look at as a model...

 

[Joe T.]

 

[Guileless]

Labour voters don't care. They'll happily work from home with their Deliveroo orders while the family businesses, pubs, and football clubs die.

 

[sinnergy]

Dutch lock down style , I hoped for Wu wu wu Wuhan style !

 

[Liljagare]

Did they do that from the beginning or was it an extra measure later on? If the latter. What were the results in numbers after that?

I do not think they are really being honest to begin with when it comes to alcohol related deaths, so nobody knows. Like most of the Carribean Islands, I think the figures are really skewed.

https://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_alcohol_report/profiles/brb.pdf?ua=1

Alcohol | Loop News

www.loopnewsbarbados.com

Alcoholic beverages consumption in Barbados by type | Statista

Spirits were the most consumed alcoholic beverage in Barbados in 2016, accounting for 50 percent of alcohol consumption in the country.

www.statista.com

The figures do not match at all, and if you ever been to the Island, you can tell that the reported figure of 2 in 10 adults drinking regurarly is grossly wrong.. So, nobody knows, but, atleast, it's one of the places that did ban alcohol sales during lockdown. I think we need to look at the end of year death figures to figure out where they are.

 

[DeepBreath87]

Dutch lock down style , I hoped for Wu wu wu Wuhan style !

What a strange little man you are. I can’t imagine hoping for my fellow countrymen’s freedom to be curtailed in such an insane way.

 

[WoJ]

What a strange little man you are. I can’t imagine hoping for my fellow countrymen’s freedom to be curtailed in such an insane way.

At this point no one should reply to him. He's just trolling and none of his posts should be taken seriously.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

So. That's the mark of the beast? Computing forever was right again.

 

[cryptoadam]

looking at some charts at worldometers, its insane how steep the death curve was in the "1st" wave opposed to the summer and october "wave".

Like the US in less than a month they went from 30 7/day avg to 2200 7/day avg. Compared to the US second wave which basically hovered between 500-1000 over months.

Same thing in Spain. They went from 1 person dying 7 day avg, 860 7 day average in one month, but they just had more cases and peaked and our coming down but no huge steep increase in deaths.

Same thing UK, France etc...

So either treatment got way better, virus got weaker or leaders killed people en masse with stupid policies.

 

[CrapSandwich]

One of the more morbid aspects of this ordeal is that despite the overwhelming correlation of vitamin D deficiency with negative covid outcomes, we still do not hear anything but murmurs about this correlation. Why? Why would this be? A cheap, available, easy prophylaxis that could potentially solve much of the problem, yet there is relative silence. The answer is obvious but also, devastating. If vitamin D deficiency were effectively addressed, it would result in the loss of billions of dollars of revenue for healthcare industries, as that deficicency is amazingly positive for healthcare profits. This extends far beyond covid, and implicates the heirarchy of expertise and "science" and the generally accepted ideas that healthcare providers, researchers, political leaders, et al, all know what they're doing. The lie equals money. People want other people sick so they can make a lot more money, this is entrenched in our healthcare systems, and there's no undoing it within the framework of how things are currently accepted.

 

[sinnergy]

What a strange little man you are. I can’t imagine hoping for my fellow countrymen’s freedom to be curtailed in such an insane way.

Why not? they had the change to bend the curve , they didn’t , they followed the rules like jack shit . Complained only , much like you guys here now they are treated as little children because they seem to need it, so lock down. It’s still pretty simple our actions spread the virus

Just have a good look at us , you guys are next , and see what your actions caused .

 

[silentsod]

Why not? they had the change to bend the curve , they didn’t , they followed the rules like jack shit . Complained only , much like you guys here now they are treated as little children because they seem to need it, so lock down. It’s still pretty simple our actions spread the virus

Just have a good look at us , you guys are next , and see what your actions caused .

Pro-lockdown. Look at this guy living in his bubble where he imagines the benefits outweigh the cost.

It’s amazing to see someone stubbornly low information.

 

[sinnergy]

I actually know much, read most articles , it’s time to listen and stop the spread , instead of spreading conspiracies. If people would do that ,this all isn’t needed.

But they don’t... so you need to treat them as babies , sad but true .

A big part of the world isn’t using their brains

I actually made something of my life while all in this , lost my job at the start, started my own business with clients , found a new job at a company..

But following all the rules .

Instead of bitching .

 

[hariseldon]

I actually know much, read most articles , it’s time to listen and stop the spread , instead of spreading conspiracies. If people would do that ,this all isn’t needed.

But they don’t... so you need to treat them as babies , sad but true .

A big part of the world isn’t using their brains

I actually made something of my life while all in this , lost my job at the start, started my own business with clients , found a new job at a company..

But following all the rules .

Instead of bitching .

Go live in China, they welcome your kind. The rest of us aren’t afraid and want to live, not merely survive. You started out reasonable but have become steadily more unhinged. I hope one day you can do some self reflection and calm down the chicken little stuff a bit.

 

[sinnergy]

Go live in China, they welcome your kind. The rest of us aren’t afraid and want to live, not merely survive. You started out reasonable but have become steadily more unhinged. I hope one day you can do some self reflection and calm down the chicken little stuff a bit.

If you guys go on, you create your own China right here , to bad I also need to live in it

Follow the simple rules , wash your hands , wear masks, avoid crowds , stay home when sick.

This was my last post ! Make the best of it all I wish you all health !

 

[hariseldon]

If you guys go on, you create your own China right here , to bad I also need to live in it

Follow the simple rules , wash your hands , wear masks, avoid crowds , stay home when sick.

This was my last post ! Make the best of it all I wish you all health !

I have no issue doing those things. I do have an issue with enforced lockdowns and your cheerleading of authoritarianism - maybe it’s tongue in cheek? I hope so, but no sane person should be asking us to copy Wuhan - welding people into their homes. Nobody should surrender liberty for security and if they do they deserve neither.

 

[DeepBreath87]

Why not? they had the change to bend the curve , they didn’t , they followed the rules like jack shit . Complained only , much like you guys here now they are treated as little children because they seem to need it, so lock down. It’s still pretty simple our actions spread the virus

Just have a good look at us , you guys are next , and see what your actions caused .

Oh? You think so? I don’t think we’re locking down where I live anytime soon. We will see. It seems more likely you’re either a troll or a weirdo. But enjoy that lockdown. I guess you guys stopped following the experts over there.

 

[hariseldon]

So Matt Hancock is a lying sack of shit. He says that we can't acquire herd immunity without a vaccine, citing some diseases (measles, malaria, aids, flu) that didn't reach herd immunity. The first thing is that barring flu none of those are transmitted through our breath. The government has been harping on about how dangerous it is (when it's kill rate is not orders of magnitude worse than flu) due to its rapid spread. That being the case, it is not unreasonable to expect herd immunity to be reached. The alternative is that they're lying about the rapid spread. So, which are you lying about Matt? The rapid spread or the herd immunity?

The second thing he mentions is 'increasing evidence of reinfection'. I would counter that with the numbers of reinfections being tiny. His citing this shows a fundamental lack of understanding of immunology. Being 'immune' means that your body is ready to fight if the infection returns, and will deal with it quickly before it becomes a problem. I would imagine that if the first infection was minor (a small viral load), your body might not develop enough immune response and so immunity might be less than it would otherwise be. The other possibility is that the tests are unreliable. We have had MANY issues of reliability with the tests so this is not impossible. The third possibility is that he's right, in which case a vaccine isn't going to solve any of our problems because we cannot be immunised against the virus. At that point, fuck lockdown, we just have to live with the thing.

Third, he says we can't shield the vulnerable and let everyone else carry on. Horse shit. If the government can fund furlough it can fund the means to shield the vulnerable. This means providing PPE and home deliveries to those who are vulnerable, providing support in the community with carers in a separated bubble, and so on. It would cost far less than destroying the economy. And then he goes to young people and long covid. For young people COVID is less dangerous than flu, while 'Long Covid' is just what happens sometimes in response to a viral infection, and isn't some new scary bogeyman as presented - and it happens in vanishingly small numbers of cases (the media just likes to focus on them).

Finally we have an appeal to emotion. If you dare listen to this opposing position, we'll have a huge loss of life. But that's horse shit. The models the government have based their planning on have been provably wrong all the way through, hell the model doesn't even produce the same results if you run it on different computers.

So, to recap, he's either lying about herd immunity or the spread. And he's either lying about reinfection, or misinformed, or we can't become immune in which case vaccines are a waste of time. I don't see in any of those scenarios a justification for lockdown.

 

[Saruhashi]

One of the more morbid aspects of this ordeal is that despite the overwhelming correlation of vitamin D deficiency with negative covid outcomes, we still do not hear anything but murmurs about this correlation. Why? Why would this be? A cheap, available, easy prophylaxis that could potentially solve much of the problem, yet there is relative silence. The answer is obvious but also, devastating. If vitamin D deficiency were effectively addressed, it would result in the loss of billions of dollars of revenue for healthcare industries, as that deficicency is amazingly positive for healthcare profits. This extends far beyond covid, and implicates the heirarchy of expertise and "science" and the generally accepted ideas that healthcare providers, researchers, political leaders, et al, all know what they're doing. The lie equals money. People want other people sick so they can make a lot more money, this is entrenched in our healthcare systems, and there's no undoing it within the framework of how things are currently accepted.

I think if people go overboard on taking vitamin D, just as they did for toilet paper etc, then it can be dangerous.

Thats not an excuse for deliberately misinforming or under informing the public of course.

A pretty big problem is that IF someone like Trump had mentioned vitamin D you'd just get the usual idiots twisting it into "lol he thinks vitmains you can buy at Walmart will cure covid". So the idea that this could be a preventative measure or even just a measure that could reduce severity of the illness if one did catch it gets lost under the bullshit.

When given the choice between calm, informative, announcements and straight up fear mongering its been the fear mongering that wins every time since this kicked off.

Remember when Trump was talking about using light? I thought he was a fucking unhinged loon at the time but actually UV light therapy is a thing that has been researched and looks like this would be possibly used for things like pneumonia. Just it's not clear on how viable this is as a treatment and it certainly wouldn't be a cure.

At every turn anything that was seen as a way to treat the virus has been mocked and scoffed at.

Meaning that they make it seem like the only way out of this is a vaccine and if you catch covid then you are 100 percent fucked so you gotta stay in and wear a mask etc.

Shit, it's been almost 8 months now and STILL you have people who think that they are protecting themselves by wearing a mask. They STILL don't get that wearing the mask is to stop you from unknowingly spreading it since you could be asymptomatic.

The asymptomatic thing is weird in itself since on one hand we are trying to convince people that getting this is a death sentence but in the other hand we want them to wear masks because they might have it but have zero symptoms.

There are just so many contradictions.

Just think what could have been done over these 8 months globally in terms of treatments and preventative measures if we had harnessed the power of mainstream and social media to educate and inform the public.

Could have had people cleaning up their diet and getting the right amounts of vitamins etc. Could have been solving that obesity problem. Could have been investing money in improving the quality of life of elderly and vulnerable people and allowing them to be kept safe and protected while also socially connected.

Instead the best we could come up with is wear a mask and stay indoors and anyone breaking those rules is an absolutely abhorrent human being... UNLESS you are attending a peaceful protest with thousands of other people, that's actually... you know... we won't criticise you for that.

Heehee you think eating healthy and getting the right levels of vitamins is the cure!? What are you some kind of idiot? Trust me boosting your immune system definitely couldn't help at all. Only masks and lockdowns can help!

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Lockdown is a losing battle. MI supreme court has nullified prosecution of anyone violating Whitmer's unconstitutional lockdown measures. This is occurring or has already occurred in other US cities/states. WHO condemns lockdowns now. More and more evidence showing that lockdowns are not the only way. More and more of the terrifying excuses made to permit lockdowns (like asymptomatic spreaders) have been disproven.

Not really sure what the current dogma is from pro-lockdown mob. Lockdown because... mommy said so?

 

[Saruhashi]

Lockdown is a losing battle. MI supreme court has nullified prosecution of anyone violating Whitmer's unconstitutional lockdown measures. This is occurring or has already occurred in other US cities/states. WHO condemns lockdowns now. More and more evidence showing that lockdowns are not the only way. More and more of the terrifying excuses made to permit lockdowns (like asymptomatic spreaders) have been disproven.

Not really sure what the current dogma is from pro-lockdown mob. Lockdown because... mommy said so?

I think it's lockdown because they enjoy seeing other people being brought down and forced to submit.

The number of times I've heard or read people basically fantasising that the attendees at a rowdy party or drunken pub night will end up watching grandparents or parents die from Covid and its all their own fault is sickening.

Some legitimately HATE seeing others having a good time or being happy or living without a care (fucksakes you even get it on gaming side whenever Animal Crossing us mentioned). So for them it's maybe satisfying or something like that to see the people who party every weekend being forced to stay home like the rest of us saddos on a Friday night. Then pure outrage when they hear the "oomf oomf oomf" of bass coming from the student neighbours down the road having a 21st birthday party. "He he heeeeh they won't be partying when granny is dead from covid".

Sick fucks whos only pleasure in life is seeing others forced to be as miserable as they are.

So when society is finally fucked due to idiotic lockdown theyll emerge saying "sure I worked online the whole time and I don't go out drinking with friends and that so the whole thing never bothered me".

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I think it's lockdown because they enjoy seeing other people being brought down and forced to submit.

The number of times I've heard or read people basically fantasising that the attendees at a rowdy party or drunken pub night will end up watching grandparents or parents die from Covid and its all their own fault is sickening.

Some legitimately HATE seeing others having a good time or being happy or living without a care (fucksakes you even get it on gaming side whenever Animal Crossing us mentioned). So for them it's maybe satisfying or something like that to see the people who party every weekend being forced to stay home like the rest of us saddos on a Friday night. Then pure outrage when they hear the "oomf oomf oomf" of bass coming from the student neighbours down the road having a 21st birthday party. "He he heeeeh they won't be partying when granny is dead from covid".

Sick fucks whos only pleasure in life is seeing others forced to be as miserable as they are.

So when society is finally fucked due to idiotic lockdown theyll emerge saying "sure I worked online the whole time and I don't go out drinking with friends and that so the whole thing never bothered me".

You're just describing the modern progressive bloc at large.

Fundamentally, they believe gov't is good and more gov't is better. Fundamentally, they believe individual woes (their own individual woes) are best addressed by sweeping changes to laws and culture. Fundamentally, they believe it is okay to skirt laws and to subvert cultural norms as long as it is For The Right Kind Of Reasons / By Any Means Necessary.

Fundamentally, progressives are far wiser, far smarter, far more insightful and empathetic to the human condition than us peasants. You and I really have nothing of value to add. The Right Side of History has been laid out clearly, and either you follow it or you're a sinner.

The cancer is progressive / collectivist / whatever amorphous blob these marxists call themselves now. The cancer won't go away when lockdowns end. They'll pivot to a new thing to manipulate. They genuinely believe this is moral behavior, to subvert the hard work of others.

Worth revisiting, for anyone who isn't sure what is going on:

"Intensify the evils and miseries of the people until their patience is exhausted and they are driven to a general uprising."

Published in 1871, the Cathecism of a Revolutionary by Sergey Nechayev and Mikhail Bakunin is an important -- but largely forgotten -- piece of communist intellectual history. The tract was written by this soy champion of a man (indoctrinated by subversive literature found in the russian...

www.neogaf.com

 

[CrapSandwich]

Lockdown is a losing battle. MI supreme court has nullified prosecution of anyone violating Whitmer's unconstitutional lockdown measures. This is occurring or has already occurred in other US cities/states. WHO condemns lockdowns now. More and more evidence showing that lockdowns are not the only way. More and more of the terrifying excuses made to permit lockdowns (like asymptomatic spreaders) have been disproven.

Not really sure what the current dogma is from pro-lockdown mob. Lockdown because... mommy said so?

I think I'd call this something like the weatherman-effect. If you live or have lived in a place with varied, unpredictable weather you may have noticed that the weatherman gets the forecast wrong very often. But everyone still listens to them, and many take the forecast for granted, almost like it's gospel, despite the obvious fact that the authority really doesn't know. People just want an expert to listen to, they want an authority to guide them and I suspect that has a lot to do with how deeply entrenched this mentality is in our socialization process. If you add in the fact that the human brain really doesn't want to accept new information that's going to force a massive reorganization of existing associations because it's a huge energy sink and it requires accepting culpability, it requires humility, and there's an emotional cost of doing it, then just kicking the can down the road, not having to think about things, and accepting the "expertise" becomes the more effecient route. Even just opening that door and saying "experts can be and often are wrong" is too much for people to deal with. So when something like the Great Barrington Declaration comes along, all of a sudden this very obvious argument comes into play, but only because it has "authority" and "expertise" behind it by virtue of Stanford, Oxford, Harvard, and many other university doctors signing it. But the argument put forth in that declaration was always there and was always sound. It's just that to consider this other perspective means abandoning the security blanket of the experts that people have already accepted. To not decry people with alternative viewpoints as heretics is a dangerous thing. That's why there's such a violent, emotional reaction to not just covid related viewpoints, but politics in general, religion in general, even sports fandom for some people. Even smaller things--I once saw someone getting upset over the possibility of not getting a particular brand of electric toothbrush! And we're not even broaching the issue that people weave their ideas and beliefs into their identities, their very notions of what-they-are. That is at the core of the issue. That's why Sweden must be denounced, that's why anybody who questions the status quo of authority must be put in their place. This is a war between rationality and emotionality, and emotion is kicking serious ass.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I think I'd call this something like the weatherman-effect. If you live or have lived in a place with varied, unpredictable weather you may have noticed that the weatherman gets the forecast wrong very often. But everyone still listens to them, and many take the forecast for granted, almost like it's gospel, despite the obvious fact that the authority really doesn't know. People just want an expert to listen to, they want an authority to guide them and I suspect that has a lot to do with how deeply entrenched this mentality is in our socialization process. If you add in the fact that the human brain really doesn't want to accept new information that's going to force a massive reorganization of existing associations because it's a huge energy sink and it requires accepting culpability, it requires humility, and there's an emotional cost of doing it, then just kicking the can down the road, not having to think about things, and accepting the "expertise" becomes the more effecient route. Even just opening that door and saying "experts can be and often are wrong" is too much for people to deal with. So when something like the Great Barrington Declaration comes along, all of a sudden this very obvious argument comes into play, but only because it has "authority" and "expertise" behind it by virtue of Stanford, Oxford, Harvard, and many other university doctors signing it. But the argument put forth in that declaration was always there and was always sound. It's just that to consider this other perspective means abandoning the security blanket of the experts that people have already accepted. To not decry people with alternative viewpoints as heretics is a dangerous thing. That's why there's such a violent, emotional reaction to not just covid related viewpoints, but politics in general, religion in general, even sports fandom for some people. Even smaller things--I once saw someone getting upset over the possibility of not getting a particular brand of electric toothbrush! And we're not even broaching the issue that people weave their ideas and beliefs into their identities, their very notions of what-they-are. That is at the core of the issue. That's why Sweden must be denounced, that's why anybody who questions the status quo of authority must be put in their place. This is a war between rationality and emotionality, and emotion is kicking serious ass.

Great insight, especially the aspect of people wrapping themselves up in their own labels for their sense of self-identity. People avoid maturation because they can simply adopt the behavior and mindset of a different pop icon or a different hobby or a different political firebrand or a different certification or a different health expert. I'm always trying to not let my love grow cold, to still be open and sympathetic to emotional pleas without being swept away by purely emotional appeals. it's a tightrope that is not easy to walk, so people avoid walking it and either go full emotional or full robotic/logical. Arrested development vs genuine maturation, stunted emotions vs tempered emotions.

 

[prag16]

People want other people sick so they can make a lot more money, this is entrenched in our healthcare systems, and there's no undoing it within the framework of how things are currently accepted.

You're almost there, just one more step... I'm referring to the role of routine vaccinations in this equation. I have no idea what your take on that is, but so many people make right to where your post is, but fail to cross that next bridge, namely questioning the role of vaccines in overall health. For all the reasons you stated I fully believe that they're not what they're cracked up to be, and that the health care and pharma (especially pharma) are fully aware of this.

If and when COVID vaccines have issues more people may wake up to this. I'm not saying they're the sole cause of the dramatic increase in chronic autoimmune and other conditions over the past 30 years. But it'd be nice if anybody seemed to care, rather than just sweep it all under the rug.

 

[diffusionx]

I've said it a bunch of times, living here in New York, I see that a lot of people really just want Cuomo to tell them what to do. They don't want to be responsible for their lives an they don't want other people to be responsible for their own lives. I think Cuomo understands this very well and has embraced it, which is why he is using this and will use it to run for President.

It's also amazing how quickly lockdowns became accepted and even celebrated, with any reopening to be a conditional aberration. Whereas, for all of human history until about March 15th, 2020, the idea of locking down an entire society, forcing people into their homes, shutting down businesses entirely, only letting one person go out to get food, etc., was so insane and tyrannical so as to not even be worth mentioning. But now it is considered the default state of affairs for millions of people. In fact, people want more of this, paired with the government taking care of them by giving them money indefinitely, like they are a pet cat or dog in the government's home. It is a real blackpill for someone like me who felt, in general, that people are responsible for their own lives and, to a large extent, their own state of affairs.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I've said it a bunch of times, living here in New York, I see that a lot of people really just want Cuomo to tell them what to do. They don't want to be responsible for their lives an they don't want other people to be responsible for their own lives. I think Cuomo understands this very well and has embraced it, which is why he is using this and will use it to run for President.

It's also amazing how quickly lockdowns became accepted and even celebrated, with any reopening to be a conditional aberration. Whereas, for all of human history until about March 15th, 2020, the idea of locking down an entire society, forcing people into their homes, shutting down businesses entirely, only letting one person go out to get food, etc., was so insane and tyrannical so as to not even be worth mentioning. But now it is considered the default state of affairs for millions of people. It's a real blackpill for someone like me who felt, in general, that I was responsible for my own life and other people are responsible for their own lives.

Like many religious zealots of the past, they will gladly let others die for their beliefs. Don't be so surprised.

We're watching the groundwork for a genuine Democrat tyrant. This is just the testing phase. Will you contradict your own values to vote for a White Male candidate if it means you get his minority female VP? Will you abstain from cancelling the wrong people if it means your side wins? Will you vote for Not Trump no matter how guilty he is of many of the things Trump was accused of?

Democrat constituents will be answering this question on Nov 3rd. The soviets got Stalin after Lenin. The chinese got Mao after Chiang Kai shek. The germans got Hitler after Franz von Papen.

 

[CrapSandwich]

You're almost there, just one more step... I'm referring to the role of routine vaccinations in this equation. I have no idea what your take on that is, but so many people make right to where your post is, but fail to cross that next bridge, namely questioning the role of vaccines in overall health. For all the reasons you stated I fully believe that they're not what they're cracked up to be, and that the health care and pharma (especially pharma) are fully aware of this.

If and when COVID vaccines have issues more people may wake up to this. I'm not saying they're the sole cause of the dramatic increase in chronic autoimmune and other conditions over the past 30 years. But it'd be nice if anybody seemed to care, rather than just sweep it all under the rug.

I don't think there's much question that flu vaccine doesn't work well. The study of flu vaccine effectiveness for 2017-2018 shows that around 80000 people died, but the total number of deaths prevented is estimated at 8000. So this preventative saves roughly 1 in 10, by the models (which are questionable). If someone told me they had a treatment for a potentially fatal condition and that it had a 10% chance of working, I'd keep looking. Further complicating this is that 90% of those deaths are age 65+, and it's known that flu vaccine doesn't work particularly well in the elderly.