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[CorwinB]

However, 2 things here that I just don't get that don't seem to jive well with my analysis.

-The ridiculously small size
-The small power usage

Isn't it more expensive to shrink something down? Why didn't Nintendo just stay with a bigger design? It just sounds weird to me, because first of all, if Nintendo knew that it would be risky trying to go with GC+ graphics, why would they try and make it weaker, if they had a chance to make it more powerful while keeping the same profit margin? And the small power usage, some have said it's because of Wiiconnect24, but if that's the case, then that means they're really pushing that online thing very hard. But still.

But yeah, just my 2 cents. Feel free to rip apart anything I've gotten wrong.

Small size : with the reduced power of the Wii, a small form factor is a possibility (the 360 and PS3 are so huge because they incorporate extremely hot components, which need some room to breathe). IIRC, I read an interview where Iwata said that he wanted the Wii to be "non-scary" or something like that. Remember how one explanation for the low performance of the XBox in Japan was because of its size ? :lol

The small power usage is a side effect of the low performance. Basically
1) there is only a certain level to which you can tweak/overclock an existing design (NGC in our case). Nintendo wanted the GC as the HW base for devs to reuse their previous gen engines (a good incentive for 3rd party). So the maximum power they could reach starting with the GC design was limited.
2) they obviously wanted to have the CPU and GPU on a small process node (90nm in that case), if only for economic reasons (the smaller the process, the more chips you can make on a silicon wafer, and the lesser the costs (unless you really screw up with yields).
3) as a result of 1) and 2), the Wii power envelope is very small. Since neither reason is very glorious to put in a press release or interview, they talk about how the Wii is environment-friendly and they can do WiiConnect24.

 

[haircut]

However, 2 things here that I just don't get that don't seem to jive well with my analysis.

-The ridiculously small size
-The small power usage

Isn't it more expensive to shrink something down? Why didn't Nintendo just stay with a bigger design? It just sounds weird to me, because first of all, if Nintendo knew that it would be risky trying to go with GC+ graphics, why would they try and make it weaker, if they had a chance to make it more powerful while keeping the same profit margin? And the small power usage, some have said it's because of Wiiconnect24, but if that's the case, then that means they're really pushing that online thing very hard. But still.

But yeah, just my 2 cents. Feel free to rip apart anything I've gotten wrong.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156121

NanaOn-Sha boss Masaya Matsuura has said he believes the reason the Wii is outdoing PS3 in the sales stakes is because Sony's next-gen console is "too big" for Japanese consumer tastes.... According to Matsuura, "With Xbox, the problem is not the size of the hardware but of the AC adapter."

 

[Oblivion]

Small size : with the reduced power of the Wii, a small form factor is a possibility (the 360 and PS3 are so huge because they incorporate extremely hot components, which need some room to breathe). IIRC, I read an interview where Iwata said that he wanted the Wii to be "non-scary" or something like that. Remember how one explanation for the low performance of the XBox in Japan was because of its size ? :lol

Yeah, I thought of that, but the PS2 sold great and it was quite a bit bigger. Which is why I was wondering.

The small power usage is a side effect of the low performance. Basically
1) there is only a certain level to which you can tweak/overclock an existing design (NGC in our case). Nintendo wanted the GC as the HW base for devs to reuse their previous gen engines (a good incentive for 3rd party). So the maximum power they could reach starting with the GC design was limited.
2) they obviously wanted to have the CPU and GPU on a small process node (90nm in that case), if only for economic reasons (the smaller the process, the more chips you can make on a silicon wafer, and the lesser the costs (unless you really screw up with yields).
3) as a result of 1) and 2), the Wii power envelope is very small. Since neither reason is very glorious to put in a press release or interview, they talk about how the Wii is environment-friendly and they can do WiiConnect24.

Hmm, that makes sense. Thanks!

 

[jimbo]

How come no one has posted Famitsu/Shinobi hardware numbers yet?

This thread's dying too quick.

 

[ivysaur12]

This thread has turned into:

 

[Wiitard]

Since everyone's talking about the specs and Nintendo's direction again, I might as well post my 2 cents, which I posted on another forum.

My analysis on Nintendo's rationale for going the route that they chose.

Ability to reuse GC assets: By making the hardware very similar, they could use the same assets and code and whatnot without too much effort/time/money involved in learning new hardware, architecture and the like.

It's just fricken cheaper for Nintendo: Just going this route would save Nintendo millions on R & D.

Third parties didn't care much: For the past 2 generations, Nintendo was cursed with a lack of third party games. Very few ever bothered to put any serious effort into them, and most were ported to PS2 later anyway. Even after Nintendo revealed the Wii controller, and after all the PR shit that you heard from the big boys, they still weren't going to do anything major for it. So from Nintendo's point of view, you could figure 'hey, these guys probably aren't going to help us AGAIN, so why do we have to make our hardware to fit their needs?". So they thought they may as well cut their losses entirely.

However, 2 things here that I just don't get that don't seem to jive well with my analysis.

-The ridiculously small size
-The small power usage

Isn't it more expensive to shrink something down? Why didn't Nintendo just stay with a bigger design? It just sounds weird to me, because first of all, if Nintendo knew that it would be risky trying to go with GC+ graphics, why would they try and make it weaker, if they had a chance to make it more powerful while keeping the same profit margin? And the small power usage, some have said it's because of Wiiconnect24, but if that's the case, then that means they're really pushing that online thing very hard. But still.

But yeah, just my 2 cents. Feel free to rip apart anything I've gotten wrong.

I actually agree with that. The small size only matted in Japan. And I'm not entirely sure that it being 4.5 DVD cases thick rather then 3.5 DVD thick would have made any real difference.

 

[BrodiemanTTR]

Only Vinnk's Village can save this thread now.

 

[milanbaros]

I actually agree with that. The small size only matted in Japan. And I'm not entirely sure that it being 4.5 DVD cases thick rather then 3.5 DVD thick would have made any real difference.

But would it have affected Nintendo's costs much either. If it only cost them $2 or $3 more to make it that little bit extra smaller then they might have thought it was worth it.

 

[Epigamic]

On a completely different tangent, from reading these threads over the past few months it seems to be common wisdom that the Japanese gaming market was in a decline pre-DS. Does anyone have a nice analysis (preferably with numbers/graphs) to show this? Was the decline in software, hardware, or both?

 

[Innotech]

I have a feeling the system has more power tucked away in that little box than Nintendo has bothered to use yet or devleopers have managed to utilize. Games will likely get to some fairly impressive levels as far as SD is concerned. Im pretty impressed that they were able to make a system as small as the wii in the first place with all the features it has built in. Its definitely a marvel of videogame engineering in that respect. It also makes the wii seem more impressive to the general public that it is so quiet and solidly built, with an overall ambience of hi-tech despite actually being weaker than the competition. a lot of it has to do with how its presented overall. the color, the glossy plastic shell, the glowing gentle blue disc slot illumination light that pulsates like an alien beacon when a message is recieved. It makes it look space age-cool in a way. I love how they designed it.

 

[sphinx]

2 MC threads destroyed consecutively.

but you know what? this is nintendo's fault for owning every competitor in japan. Each week is the same domination, the same o.k/decent PSP numbers, same terrible HD consoles numbers.

we have nothing to talk about.

 

[icecream]

we have nothing to talk about.

The games?

 

[sphinx]

The games?

what about them? DS games sales have legs, the others disappear right away.

what else?

 

[milanbaros]

On a completely different tangent, from reading these threads over the past few months it seems to be common wisdom that the Japanese gaming market was in a decline pre-DS. Does anyone have a nice analysis (preferably with numbers/graphs) to show this? Was the decline in software, hardware, or both?

I remember reading once that it had contracted by a third in yen terms at one point from its peak ('97/'98?) but thats not too much help.

Edit - Source - Gamespot article reporting on a CESA report

Ironically, while more Japanese citizens are playing games, they are apparently spending less money. Another CESA report showed that the overall size of videogame market in Japan is on the decline, shrinking 11 percent from 2002 to 446.2 billion yen ($4.11 billion)--about 60 percent of its peak in 1997. Hardware sales for 2003 in Japan were down by 16.7 percent to 137.2 billion yen ($1.26 billion), and software sales also sank 8.2 percent to 309.1 billion yen ($ 2.85 billion).

It seems it was much worse than I thought. I think 2003 was the low point.

 

[Gekkonidae]

I disagree with you guys that the small size only matters in Japan. Having a small, portable console that you can easily take it over to a friend's house means that when my friends and I weekend somewhere, we play Wii (360 wouldn't fit in my backpack.) Conseequently my friends love the Wii and a couple have bought it for themselves.

Or consider the average soccer Mom who doesn't want a big console that will crowd their entertainment space.

These are real concerns that we don't think about in our need to get all of the systems.

 

[ksamedi]

The small size is for one thing only, to keep the Wii in the living room. Low power consumption is related to low noise (again to keep the Wii in the living room) and for Wiiconnect24. Wiiconnect24 basically abstracts online into a seamless experience and is primarily meant for nongamers and the channel interface.
So why would Nintendo want this thing in the living room? Well, thats where all the people in a family hang out. It effectivly increases the chances of a higher user rate for Wii when its placed in the living room and a higher user rate means more software sales per household. The Wii is still an ongoing project. When it reaches a state where every member of the family have a broad range of software and channel choices for it, then Nintendo will sell a lot of software. The 360 attach rates are nothing compared to this potential if Nintendo can pull it off.

 

[tanasten]

The Wii's image is kinda like a key point on the marketing plan.

Everyone who sees the system goes "WOW" and like it. They see Xbox360 and PS3 and the first thing they say is "uggly" or "too big". And that's Spain not Japan.

And yes, Wii's channel idea is kinda amazing and can be the killer up people has been looking for. If they develop great channels for everyone in the family to check them out... WOW.

THe thing is that... is Nintendo going to spent a lot into these channels if they aren't making money from them?

 

[titiklabingapat]

Yeah I mean seriously, who can even tell a freaking difference? They are all basically the same damn thing.

Perhaps you meant $250, because then you would be right. The diminishing returns on Wii are deffinitely there when most games games don't look as good as last generation whereas. But for $300(the entry price of next-gen) you can fix that problem.

Giving a very quick glance at those, you can almost not tell the difference(or the difference is not THAt significant at all). Imagine a non-gamer looking at those blobs.

And the Mario VS Ratchet clearly demonstrates that art direction can more than make up for subpar graphical quality. Mario's stuff just has that distinctive "mario" feel to it.

 

[Hollywood_mIRC]

Fun facts: 60% of all threads here degenerate in Wii power arguments. Like I've posted before, people bitching wouldn't have bought the system anyway even if it did have comparable power - it would have just been another thing to bitch about, like Gamecube. Gamecube was powerful, so was N64.

-If the Wii had a little more power, say 1.5 ghz decent processor, 256MB RAM - it would be bitched about it wasn't as strong.

-IF Wii had the same amount of power as 360 or PS3 - the unorthodox controls would have been bitched about.

-IF the controls were another PS2 ripoff controller - the lack of online would have been bitched about.

-IF the online was like Live - the lack of third party games you want would be bitched about.

-And IF the third party games were exactly the same in every way and in equal amounts of PS3 and 360 - Nintendo's own first party games not being mature enough would have been bitched about.

In all scenarios, the people BITCHING about the system would not have bought it anyway. So Nintendo basically said F it, why even cater to these types of people in the least bit - because added power at more cost wouldn't have brought in any more sales, at all. So they just basically upgraded the GC as cheap as possible, and pointed their marketing in the direction of the non-gamer and flipped a middle finger in the face of all the videophile geeks. I know its a hard concept for many here to grasp, but there are things outside of your own taste that can succeed.

So seriously, I don't know what the flaming always comes from. Nintendo's not taking anything away from your precious 360 or PS3 in terms of games. Wii can't do the graphics these systems can do, so there will always be the shooters and the online games you crave so much - Wii hasn't taken a damn thing away from you PS3/360 games - so what are you bitching about? It's just more of the age old thing where people seem to be insecure or want what their purchase decision is to be in first to justify their taste and make it the "right way" or something. Live and let live.

 

[ivysaur12]

Wow, you picked the ****tiest shots for some of those games.

 

[Branduil]

Aww, why was jimbo banned? This thread won't be nearly as interesting now.

 

[Miniboss1232]

Fun facts: 60% of all threads here degenerate in Wii power arguments. Like I've posted before, people bitching wouldn't have bought the system anyway even if it did have comparable power - it would have just been another thing to bitch about, like Gamecube. Gamecube was powerful, so was N64.

-If the Wii had a little more power, say 1.5 ghz decent processor, 256MB RAM - it would be bitched about it wasn't as strong.

-IF Wii had the same amount of power as 360 or PS3 - the unorthodox controls would have been bitched about.

-IF the controls were another PS2 ripoff controller - the lack of online would have been bitched about.

-IF the online was like Live - the lack of third party games you want would be bitched about.

-And IF the third party games were exactly the same in every way and in equal amounts of PS3 and 360 - Nintendo's own first party games not being mature enough would have been bitched about.

In all scenarios, the people BITCHING about the system would not have bought it anyway. So Nintendo basically said F it, why even cater to these types of people in the least bit - because added power at more cost wouldn't have brought in any more sales, at all. So they just basically upgraded the GC as cheap as possible, and pointed their marketing in the direction of the non-gamer and flipped a middle finger in the face of all the videophile geeks. I know its a hard concept for many here to grasp, but there are things outside of your own taste that can succeed.

So seriously, I don't know what the flaming always comes from. Nintendo's not taking anything away from your precious 360 or PS3 in terms of games. Wii can't do the graphics these systems can do, so there will always be the shooters and the online games you crave so much - Wii hasn't taken a damn thing away from you PS3/360 games - so what are you bitching about? It's just more of the age old thing where people seem to be insecure or want what their purchase decision is to be in first to justify their taste and make it the "right way" or something. Live and let live.

It's entirely true. If I were in charge of a company of that size, I certainly wouldn't cater to that demographic. They're small and overly demanding. The vocal minority indeed. Of course, that's the thing though. They are quite vocal, so you need to appease them, at least on the surface, which is the reason why Mario, Metroid, and Smash are still coming at all.

 

[Innotech]

the screenshots do bring up a point. If you look carefully at them, yes its obvious that the 360/Ps3 shots look much better. However if youre scrolling down the page quickly, or indeed playing each game and caught up in the moment, the htings that tend to stand out are animations and flashes of vivid color. the wii can render fairly rounded models and environments just fine, its really just the amount of things it can render at once and the quality of textures that makes it seem much less impressive. Im surel ighting has alot to do with it but the wii can pull of some pretty decent lighting effects as well. Basically Im saying that to the average gamer who just plays videogames to enjoy them, the visuals on wii are plenty good enough to realize a world in a believable fashion, without too much pixelation or blurring or other elements of N64/early Ps2. It certainly looks good enough for my relatives to glance over at Madden 07 playing and say "Oh I didnt know the game was on". Obviously any gamer knows Madden wii doesnt even look remotely realistic, but in motion, from a casual glance its pretty convincing. I even noticed this effect on certain Gamecube games, and the wii can definitely pull off better visuals than that. So I really htink its sufficient for a large number of potential gamers.

 

[PantherLotus]

Aww, why was jimbo banned? This thread won't be nearly as interesting now.

The real question is why now, versus last week? What exactly deserved the banstick that didn't last week?

 

[Brakara]

The real question is why now, versus last week? What exactly deserved the banstick that didn't last week?

Maybe because of some of the new rules?

Anyway, no early hardware numbers this week?

 

[sphinx]

you know, both parts of the discussion are right to some extent.

If some people here stopped being such fanboys, (either side) you'll all agree you'll need PS3/360 AND Wii to get through this gen, period.

 

[PantherLotus]

Maybe because of some of the new rules?

Anyway, no early hardware numbers this week?

Same time, every single week. It's mentioned in the OP, if you forget when. If you still can't add it up, it's about 3.5 hours from now, but I can tell you what it's going to say, if you're in a hurry?

Wii - 46k-56k
PS3 - 6.5k-9.5k
360 - 2k-5k

 

[Chittagong]

Came to thread /

hoping for charts


Flicked through pages /

nine full of nonesense


Found the topic matter /

on page one


Next time will know better /

start from the beginning

 

[icecream]

what about them? DS games sales have legs, the others disappear right away.

what else?

How they play, do they warrent their sales, etc...

It'd at least be better than the usual fanboi banter about how each week determines the fate of all three console... or at least hold it off until the HW numbers.

 

[Dimmuxx]

you know, both parts of the discussion are right to some extent.

If some people here stopped being such fanboys, (either side) you'll all agree you'll need PS3/360 AND Wii to get through this gen, period.

Yes, and that's why Wii60 was created.

Shouldn't we be getting some hardware number rumors soon?

 

[RiskyChris]

you know, both parts of the discussion are right to some extent.

If some people here stopped being such fanboys, (either side) you'll all agree you'll need PS3/360 AND Wii to get through this gen, period.

I'm sure a lot of people will be completely fine owning either a 360 or a Wii this generation. Both will get a lot of support (Wii moreso).

 

[Brakara]

Same time, every single week. It's mentioned in the OP, if you forget when. If you still can't add it up, it's about 3.5 hours from now, but I can tell you what it's going to say, if you're in a hurry?

It's 1 am here so I'm hitting the sack. Just wondered if there were any Famitsu numbers or something like that (couldn't find any in this thread, except for PS3).

 

[Narag]

Man Call of Duty 3 looks like hell no matter what system its on.

 

[Innotech]

you know, both parts of the discussion are right to some extent.

If some people here stopped being such fanboys, (either side) you'll all agree you'll need PS3/360 AND Wii to get through this gen, period.

I have no doubT Ill eventually pick up a 360 alongside the Wii. The question is just WHEN.

 

[castle007]

very slow week

 

[Dimmuxx]

I have no doubT Ill eventually pick up a 360 alongside the Wii. The question is just WHEN.

I already know when, September 26th.. ^^

 

[Grampa Simpson]

The real question is why now, versus last week? What exactly deserved the banstick that didn't last week?

Last week, most of his trolling was on memorial day, and I'm pretty sure I didn't see a mod post anything in any thread until late in that evening.

It's also possible that he was banned for cumulative offenses.

 

[Proven]

I dont know about the game, but the Lucky Star anime is great.

This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjEFUY7unks is why I don't plan on touching that thing.

 

[Vitet]

Hey guys, what's going on here?

 

[Innotech]

I already know when, September 26th.. ^^

what game comes out Sept 26th? (my brothers Bday btw)

 

[Innotech]

This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjEFUY7unks is why I don't plan on touching that thing.

Its like Azumanga Daioh on happycrack. Its fun (its a very throwaway sort of show though).
I like Galaxy angel better.

 

[mclem]

Just a quick question, here: I think most would agree that Atlus is an archetypal small publisher - good games, but can't afford huge amounts of dev costs and advertising.

Have they got anything out or lined up for 360 or PS3? I don't think I've heard of anything specific, but I may just be ignorant of it. I'm wondering if they believe 360 and PS3 are too large a risk - not from the install base standpoint, which we're aware of now but wouldn't have been back when development on many titles began - but from the development cost standpoint.

If Atlus can thrive on Wii *because* of the cheap development - in part aided by the 'limitations' many are decrying - I'd be all for it.

 

[PerkeyMan]

what game comes out Sept 26th? (my brothers Bday btw)

If you are a really nice boy you will get one when you're being judged by God. +3.

 

[Dimmuxx]

what game comes out Sept 26th? (my brothers Bday btw)

A little game called Halo 3.

 

[Innotech]

A little game called Halo 3.

I thought it was coming in November.
I havent really paid attention to release dates.

Ill buy the system after price drops and once more games like viva Pinata are out.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Giving a very quick glance at those, you can almost not tell the difference(or the difference is not THAt significant at all). Imagine a non-gamer looking at those blobs.

And the Mario VS Ratchet clearly demonstrates that art direction can more than make up for subpar graphical quality. Mario's stuff just has that distinctive "mario" feel to it.

I know this doesn't mean shit coming from me, but I basically scrolled through quickly and my brain went "okay, I see mario and a bunch of PS3 and 360 games... wait, Zelda? Huh? *stops scrolling and looks at pictures and post*

You DID choose a lot of bad shots from the PS3/360 games, though. Especially Gears.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Just a quick question, here: I think most would agree that Atlus is an archetypal small publisher - good games, but can't afford huge amounts of dev costs and advertising.

Have they got anything out or lined up for 360 or PS3? I don't think I've heard of anything specific, but I may just be ignorant of it. I'm wondering if they believe 360 and PS3 are too large a risk - not from the install base standpoint, which we're aware of now but wouldn't have been back when development on many titles began - but from the development cost standpoint.

If Atlus can thrive on Wii *because* of the cheap development - in part aided by the 'limitations' many are decrying - I'd be all for it.

They announced a Shin Megami Tensai sequel waaaaaaaay back in 2005 when everyone was sure the PS3 was the undisputed market leader. No other information have been heard since then and the only next gen game they have is a port of Trauma Center for the Wii that did very well, especially in North America.

 

[Vinnk]

Only Vinnk's Village can save this thread now.

Writing it up right now.

 

[Michirou_53]

Nintendo in Japan never drops game prices as NoA does, if you go in some store you can still find Smash Bros GC at full price...
No "Player's Choice" in Japan

They actually did that in N64 era. They re-released games like StarFox, Mario Kart, Goldeneye for 4800 yen. I don't remember what they call. It was something similar to "Player's Choise."

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

On a completely different tangent, from reading these threads over the past few months it seems to be common wisdom that the Japanese gaming market was in a decline pre-DS. Does anyone have a nice analysis (preferably with numbers/graphs) to show this? Was the decline in software, hardware, or both?

To try and answer such a thing in detail would be difficult and require a loooong view, but I can provide this graph of cumulative yearly hardware sales for 2000 through 2007 thus far. While this year and last year are clearly above the rest, I don't see a clear downward trend. Before 2005 it seems the previous few years had been below 2001, but since 2001 had the end of PS2 shortages, GBA launch, and GCN launch, I'm not surprised it was particularly high.

It seems it was much worse than I thought. I think 2003 was the low point.

2004 was a bit lower, in terms of units.

I also note the quote you gave talked about hardware sales being down in terms of money spent, but I wonder if there were prominent price drops?